Match-Up Discussion ~ Final Week Ganon/Falcon/Link >__>

Blad01 · May 5, 2008

> Current : Final Week : Some Dudes <

This chart is incomplete and will be updated when matchups are finished.

Match-Ups Numbers :

MetaKnight - 50/50 (no planking)
Snake - 50/50 or 45/55
Game & Watch - 40/60
King Dedede - 60/40
ROB - 40/60
Marth - 40/60
Wario - 50/50
Lucario - 55/45
Donkey Kong - 60/40
Diddy Kong - 60/40
Ice Climbers - 30/70
Pikachu - 35/65
Kirby - 40/60
Pit - 55/45
Wolf - 60/40
Toon Link - 60/40
Olimar - 50/50
Zelda - 50-50 or 60/40
Fox - 60/40
Yoshi - 60/40
Zero Suit Samus - 60/40
Peach - 55/45
Ike - 60/40
Luigi - 55/45
Bowser 60/40
Sheik 50/50
Lucas 60/40
Ness 60/40
Sonic Blue Steak 60/40
Peach 60/40
Jiggs 60/40
Mario 55/45 - 60/40
Pokémon Breeder 60/40
Samus 65/35
Ganon ~~LMAO~~ 95/5
Link TBC
Captain Falcon TBC

Exousia · May 5, 2008

Well from what I've experienced playing against MKs is that they will try to go for the "combo your *** into the Air to Shuttle Loop you off the stage".

Also his B move is a nightmare and the only thing that might counter it is his shine (but I think I've also seen his laser do the trick if its a direct hit to MK himself)

For MKs smal size, SHDL must be 'perfect' to the inch to be effective.

Also, spike attempts on MK while recovering are a HUGE risk to getting shuttle looped into a stage spike or out of reach to recover but even if you acheive it MK's recovery makes it possible to survive it and get back onto the stage.

What to do is try go on the defensive. Lasering him, shining him, anything that can deal damage from a distance and have him come to you so you can deliver the hurt up close and personal.

Kill methods are trying to go for kills going vertically upward and Bairing/Smashing him off the stage when you can do it safely.

The best example I can use is Sethlon VS Stiltz matches (Falco VS Metaknight)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=boiqcfv4rEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j8nkuO7NkY

Kirin · May 5, 2008

Well from my short experience as Falco and my even shorter experience against MKs, I can say a few things.

I can agree with some things Exousia said:

1. SHDL is VERY hard to pull off on MK, he is so short both lasers will usually miss him if MK is on the ground.

2. Do not try to spike MK off the edge or he will very likely end up spiking you into the stage with Shuttle Loop.

3. Space well and laser him until he approaches you. From there you can space against him with the reflector, or one of my favorites, as he comes in to attack, shieldgrab him into a chain grab.

Now some of my own tips (take them with a grain of salt, I don't have a ton of experience):

1. Don't attempt to dsmash MK, it seems to have too much start-up lag to be useful. You'll usually get attacked with MK's sword before it goes off.

2. Fsmash is a VERY reliable move to kill with, use this at high percents. Heck, even use it at low percents if you can.

3. Also, like Exousia said, since MK is so light, a bair while MK is also in the air is a very reliable kill move.

Overall, this match-up requires very good spacing to win, but then again so do most of Falco's matchups. Try to rack up damage from far away then go in for the kill with a fsmash or bair.

Quetz · May 6, 2008

Exousia said:
Also his B move is a nightmare and the only thing that might counter it is his shine (but I think I've also seen his laser do the trick if its a direct hit to MK himself)

You can phantasm through the tornado if you hit it in the right spot, I believe it's right at the tip of where MK's head would be positioned inside of the tornado.

Jem. · May 6, 2008

I didnt know there were designated Brawl Pros already. Wait for a major tournament, not just local randos who are good at brawl.

Blad01 · May 6, 2008

Quetz said:
You can phantasm through the tornado if you hit it in the right spot, I believe it's right at the tip of where MK's head would be positioned inside of the tornado.

Woh, i'm gonna try this, that sounds useful !

About Mach Tornado, you can lokk at this thread, Lasers and Shine can beat it :D http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167202

Your advices are pretty accurate, Exousia and Rofl Pwny, i would just add :

~ Don't try to chase them off the stage (I mean below it), he can use his Up B to easily surpise and beat you... :/ (http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rzNzaPJKSbs&feature=related)

Ho, and I would like to have Sethlon's advices

Tommy_G · May 6, 2008

Falco's lasers and shine beat the tornado. His lasers might even make meta-knight do a forward-B unexpectedly if he is tapping B to make the tornado last and the directional pad to move. Even when spaced, the DLX hit cancel sliding Up smash (or whatever we call it) can hit meta-knight before the lag ends on the tornado.

His forward air beats glide attack. Apparently Falco's forward air is not completely useless. His lasers work too.

Down air spike out prioritizes the Up-B when it's rising. If you jump over the ledge and do down air when you think meta-knight will drop and up-B, he will get spiked, probably to death because its unexpected.

Edit: For that ^^^ I ment short hop over the ledge with the down air and DI back to the stage so you're not outside of it. Going out of the stage is not going to be a good time for Falco...

Falco can chain-grab meta-knight if it's done fast enough. It's not as bad of a match up as people say. Meta-knight's just a good character.

Exousia · May 6, 2008

Tommy_G said:
Down air spike out prioritizes the Up-B when it's rising. If you jump over the ledge and do down air when you think meta-knight will drop and up-B, he will get spiked, probably to death because its unexpected.

Are you sure about this? I've never seen Falco's Spike out Prioritize MK's Shuttle Loop or even gotten close to achieving this feat. Maybe its because my games always lag online. xD

Blad01 · May 6, 2008

Hum yeah, that doesn't seem so hard, in conclusion.

But since i never played against a smart MK... :s

The other move that I fear from him is his Down Smash. I guess you should not go to close-fight on the ground, or he will D-Smash OoS (/Sheildgrab).

And yes, the Phantasm to recover seems VERY useful against MK

Kirin · May 6, 2008

I would like to see Seth's input in here as well, someone want to point him in this direction?

Also, Blad01, here...

About Mach Tornado, you can lokk at this thread, Lasers and Shine can beat it :D http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167202

...You simply linked to this thread. Wrong link?

BEES · May 6, 2008

Pretty sure Falco's spike does not out-prioritize the initial part of the shuttle loop. It might be 50-50 though.

Kirin · May 6, 2008

Yeah I've tried it before and it usually results in my death rather than theirs.

Blad01 · May 7, 2008

Rofl Pwny said:
I would like to see Seth's input in here as well, someone want to point him in this direction?

Also, Blad01, here...

...You simply linked to this thread. Wrong link?

Urgh ^^"http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161939

Smashbros_7 · May 7, 2008

Metaknights a monster! HE IS the nightmare of brawl!!!

Tommy_G · May 8, 2008

Priority

From what I've seen with this game there are only a few levels of priority. There are 3 in my opinion and they are 'invincible', 'interruptable', and 'normal'. Most of all attacks have normal priority. The ones with invincible would be like Falco's Lasers. Interruptable would be the air part of Falco's forward smash or his reflector(It can't be pinged, but if Falco is hit, it will be stopped) Normal ones are every other attack. The reason that some characters seem to have more priority(MK) is because they reach farther. If an attack can reach a character's body(where it can be hit) then they will get hit. Who ever reaches that point first will get the hit. All of Meta-Knights attacks have major 'priority' because they are fast and reach far. When attacks ping, two attacks just hit against hitboxes, not the fighters. I have jabbed a Donkey Kong down smash before. Meta-Knights glide attack beat my Forward Smash because it out reached it and got to me first. You can out prioritize the initial rising part of Meta-Knight's Up-B because when he starts to rise, he doesn't reach out.

By the way, I'm not talking about Falco's down air out prioritizing the very first frames of Meta-knights shuttle loop. I'm talking about when he's rising. Usually you could only catch this when you expect a Up-B from off the ledge seeing that he's already lower than you.

On a side note, I just started A-sticking (setting A to C-stick) It doesn't really change the aerial game aside from not auto fast falling when you down air (Helpful as ledge guard). Forward Smash is too slow to get on people consistantly so I'll just get it with the non-c-stick smash when I need to. I'll let you guys know if the tilts help for anything extra.

Blad01 · May 9, 2008

I played a good MK yesterday. He's not so hard to fight, finally.

Just keep in mind two things (that we have already said) :

1. Spacing with SHDL and SHL
2. Rack up damages with chaingrab
3. When you can (and when he's at less at 70%), Short Hop Spike.

Do you want to change of character ? About which one would you talk ?

Da N · May 9, 2008

MKs definitely tough. They just love to get all up in your face and use their insane combos to really frustrate you. Here, its almost impossible to keep your distance becuase hes so fast. Chaingrabbing wont work after hes at 30% because hes so light. So youll just have to counter his aerials with yours. B-air destroys MK becuase of knockback and priority. Your worst nightmare is getting caught under the stage and trying to fire-falco your way back up. The startup lag leaves you wide open for a d-air, which will usually ricochet you off the stage and ultimately resulting in your death. Your best bet is to just go at him and attack him hard, countering his game plan whatever way you can.

Tonyyyyyy · May 9, 2008

MK will be KO'd to a falco usmash @ 105%+ on FD.

Da N · May 9, 2008

Tonyyyyyy said:
MK will be KO'd to a falco usmash @ 105%+ on FD.

Now just to hit him with the u-smash... hmm

SideEffect · May 9, 2008

I LOVE SETHLON!

Slitz is a noob MK, he needs more prac.

Everyone must love seth like i do

BEES · May 9, 2008

Tonyyyyyy said:
MK will be KO'd to a falco usmash @ 105%+ on FD.

Is this including or excluding the damage from the u-smash?

Exousia · May 9, 2008

Tommy_G said:
From what I've seen with this game there are only a few levels of priority. There are 3 in my opinion and they are 'invincible', 'interruptible', and 'normal'....

I can agree with this. I say most(if not all) of MKs moves have the interruptible priority as MK's B can be stopped by Laser and Shine.

The shuttle loop maybe as well but maybe he has some sort of invincibility in his first few frames of the attack. So you may be able to spike him. But I still believe its a risk move to just spike him with the risk of getting owned yourself.

SideEffect said:
I LOVE SETHLON!

Slitz is a noob MK, he needs more prac.

Everyone must love seth like i do

And thank you for providing this news to us that doens't even fit the topic :laugh:

(Stilz is pretty good, but we aren't talking about player's skills here :psycho:

)

Triplehelix2.0 · May 10, 2008

Metaknight can be a problem for Falco, because he can stay in the air for so long. Lasers are your best friend in this situation until he get to the ground, then have your way with him.

Tonyyyyyy · May 10, 2008

BEES said:
Is this including or excluding the damage from the u-smash?

Excluding. You need the additional damage for the Usmash to work, this is with a Usmash that hasn't been used up to this point. So if you've used usmash up until this point and the damage has decreased, than just wait until you have him at 110%

Exousia · May 11, 2008

I think its time to start week 2's new character discussion

Kirin · May 11, 2008

Da N said:
Now just to hit him with the u-smash... hmm

The dash attack -> usmash trick is a good way to get this off.

And yes I'd say it's safe to go to match-up #2 now, we've had a good amount of discussion. We should probably ACTUALLY keep track of weeks and change it every 7 days, unless there is a good amount of discussion still going on. Blad01?

Ratherion · May 11, 2008

Here's my experience with priority. It's not a number system. It's rock-paper scissors.

For instance:
Pound beats Phantasm
Phantasm beats Mach Tornado
Mach Tornado beats pound

Certian moves out-prioritize certain moves, which in many cases doesn't make much sense. (I've jabbed G-dorf's hand in the middle of a Warlock Punch.)

Blad01 · May 12, 2008

Week #2 : Snake

Ok, let's go on ^^

~ Week #2 : Snake ~

Look at the first post to read a (very) little description.

I lost against a Snake in a tournament final... :/
But i let you begin

And give me some time to resume the MK discussion ^^

Blad01 · May 12, 2008

Ok... I begin so ^^'

-> His grab are very dangerous. I don't why, but they have good range, and a Snake spamming Sheildgrab is dangerous. Also if he down-throws you, don roll away from him ! He will perform a Dash Attack... (Or Dash Attack to Up-Smash.... :/)

-> He can easily approach you under you lasers.... What a joke ! :'( Shieldgrab his Down-Tilt.

-> Up-Smash is dangerous when you come back on stage.

-> His tilts are... Amazing OO A F-Tilt will kill you at ~80% if you are on a side of FD. His UTilt is scaring !

-> Just grab him when he's recovering ! It's the easiest way to win : Spike > Grab.

It's you turn ^^

Ratherion · May 12, 2008

Shine helps a LOT against Snake. He does well if he's really close and really far, but the shine will keep your spacing just right, and he'll have to reposition himself every time. Even just spamming down-b works wonders.

Exousia · May 12, 2008

Something to add is that Snake will tend to edge guard with a F-Smash (and it will kill you if you dont be careful) or maybe use Side B and drop it right on the edge or attempt to intercept you.

Another thing is that snake players will have a tendency to ram you down with a Dair after recovering to try and foil your efforts to Uair KO him if you attempt it.

When he uses D-Smash on one side of you and then have a remote mine on the other and you stuck in a little Monkey in the middle game, you kinda screwed because snake will come in and Fair you into a mine and follow it up with a U-Smash and try to take you out like that(or some sort of variation after pinned between the mines).

Now to counter Snake, CHAIN GRABING IS YOUR BEST FRIEND(as always).

His Up B is easily gimped with Uair or Dair (depending on how you want to kill him)

SHL is actually still one of your friends in this fight(use responsibly).

Crawling can be punished (as Blad said, Shieldgrab his D-Tilt which will mostly likely be his number one move to use out of his crawling)

Recommendation video for VS Snake is Sethlon vs T-Rex
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpZK80maBMY

Emperor Time · May 12, 2008

Versus Snake, your laser is near useless. Your reflector will most is good for his projectiles though. It's near impossible for me to hit him with it unless I start an AAA combo. The thing about him is that if you give him chance to affect the field, you've screwed yourself.

I usually pressure the Snake's I play so they will have less control over the terrain. Chaingrabbing is your best friend against this guy. And once you get him off the stage...gimp him hard and gimp him fast.

Tommy_G · May 12, 2008

Against Snake laser gets him out of campy mode. He can't camp while crouching. If he starts to crawl at you, do Side-B's through him but don't get predictable.

Spike, Grab the ledge, grab his cypher and you win. I make this Snake I play with want to get damage up to 60% on purpose from his own mines because chain grab into many different spikes own him.

About priority, phantasm does not go through tornado. There is a point above the tornado hit box where metaknights head sticks out. That's where you are hitting. Jiggs' pound reaches very far so it has a lot of "priority" High priority moves are moves that hit far away from the character's body(his own damage hitbox).

Blad01 · May 13, 2008

Oh, and i forgot ! Please give a number / a sign about the difficulty of the match-up (Only if your are a GOOD Falco and if you have played against good opponents

).

You have the choice :

1/10 -
2/10
3/10 - Falco has a disadvantage (Or you can put a -)
4/10 - Slight disadvantage over the opponent.
5/10 - Fair. The best will win (Or ~)
6/10 - Slight advantage
7/10 -
8/10 - Falco has the advantage on the opponent. (Or you put a +)
9/10 - The match is won be fore you begin
10/10 - The perfect number. I would be astonished if someone put this number on a match-up... :/

Personnaly, i think (I've played against both good MK and Snake) :

MetaKnight : 7/10
Snake : 3 - 4 /10

What's your thoughts ? (But keep arguing your point of view

)

Blad01 · May 13, 2008

[Sorry for Double]

Just to say i summarized MK Discussion in the first thread. If you want to criticize, please PM.

Now, Snake Discussion ! ^^ (And Match-Ups notations)

BEES · May 13, 2008

I'm not going to give a number, but I think Falco has a tactical advantage over Snake, at least on paper. This matchup should be much more favorable than Metaknight.

His recovery begs for abuse. Most Snakes recover high in order to avoid it. There is a bit of lag once he lets go of the cypher. Falco jumps exceptionally high, so you can time this interaction to avoid aerial retaliation.

During his invincibility frames after spawning, a Snake will often use that time to lay a mine. Use the reflector on him to detonate the mine before he can lay it, then force him to engage you, and try to get a chaingrab.

The only other thing is his dash. It's very long and fast, and both the dash attack and the upsmash are pretty good out of it. Honestly, reflector is good here. You cannot have enough reflector fighting Snake, in my opinion. His u-smash and f-smash can be some of your best killing moves.

Da N · May 13, 2008

U-smash is very good to kill a snake cus its an alright glide smash (run and u-smash and you should slide while charging). Its got good knockback and if it doesnt kill him it can set up for a u-air

BEES · May 14, 2008

I recommend everyone read the Snake forum. Read the Snake survival guide and other suggestion threads. It's a good overview of how they're going to edgeguard and space themselves. Probably helps to play Snake a bit too. Get familiar with where his attacks will hit.

To get an idea of how dangerous this guy is, picture Marth's range and priority, but stronger, and with a few explosive projectiles.

Sounds bad, but with a high jump, quick horizontal recovery, and great long-range attacks Falco can get past this. One of the few characters that can.

Conda · May 15, 2008

Falco definately has the advantage. Snake is a hard opponent just because his attacks are very punishing, but if some characters have an advantage over Snake, Falco would definately be one of them.

Blad01 · May 15, 2008

I would like your point of view : Which stage is in the advantage of Falco, Vs Snake ?

Finale Destination or Battlefield ?

Personnally, i would say Battlefield : You can catch him easier, gimp his recovery easier, and win in vertical vs. (He has his UTilt though...)

In horizontal, on FD... Falco looses :/

Match-Up Discussion ~ Final Week Ganon/Falcon/Link >__>

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Rookie

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Cadet

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Cadet

Smash Cadet

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)

Smash Lord

Information

Network