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Lucas has the second most reliable jab lock in the game.

NESSBOUNDER

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This has probably been covered before in one of the Lucas threads that have fallen off the front page, but whatever. I'll make a topic about it because it's that awesome anyway.

Thanks to his incredibly cool Dair, Lucas has THE second most reliable jab lock in the game, only beaten out by the Ice Climbers and their ice block lock (from a grab chain footstool)

Now there was already a topic about using the Dair out of a full jump to get all 4 hits and a spike combo out of an opponent who doesn't DI, and a good way to pressure shields, right? After about 80/90%, most opponents will be bounced off the ground by the spiking part of the attack, which brings us to this:

If you time your Dair so that you hit with only the last 2 hits while your opponent is on the ground, they will be slammed into the ground very fast, with a very small window for teching.

Since Lucas's landing lag will be canceled if you did it properly, you can then jab lock by using Down tilt.

Down tilt does a lot of damage for such a "jab" like attack, and it cancels very quickly, meaning that it's EASY to jab lock your opponent if you can pull this off. You can get in enough damage to KO, and then finish the opponent off with a down or Fsmash, or even PSI magnet if you're feeling funny.

The window for teching this is incredibly small. Most human opponents won't be able to pull it off 100% of the time.

Now that the jab lock is out of the way, I want to touch on another point about the last two hits of Lucas's Dair: doing it this way at lower percents will give you much more frame time to combo the opponent than if you were to hit them with all 4 hits from a full jump. If you hit with the last two hits of the Dair on your way down and still cancel the lag, you'll have enough time to hit with an Fsmash, or even a full jump Dair for extra damage.

This is especially effective against tall opponents of course.

I'd post a video and all, but I don't have the equipment to do that. Maybe I'll draw up a little diagram when I get the time. I really think this is something all Lucas players should look at learning.
 

Levitas

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If this can reliably lead into a jab lock, Lucas may have just gotten his redeeming factor. I'm gonna test this when I have time, because instead of a grab = death, a missed tech = death makes lucas deadly to all.
 

Levitas

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I just did some preliminary research, and lucas isn't on the list of people who can jab lock. Can someone confirm his ability to do so?
 

NESSBOUNDER

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I just did some preliminary research, and lucas isn't on the list of people who can jab lock. Can someone confirm his ability to do so?
Use down tilt, not jab.

down tilt.

And it only works at upwards of 80>90%, and at that percent you'd be at a KOing range for up smash or even Fsmash anyway. But it's still cool.
 

FrostByte

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Sonic's nair setup is a bit easier than this, and it can be done with any part of the nair depending on the %. The tech window is probably larger though.
 

Levitas

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some characters can do the following.

Bounce an opponent into the ground (the opponent must miss the tech)
Jab the opponent
take a step forward
Jab the opponent

It looks a lot like the laser lock with falco, and if you type jab lock into youtube, you'll find it right away.
 

Fhed

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If this can reliably lead into a jab lock, Lucas may have just gotten his redeeming factor. I'm gonna test this when I have time, because instead of a grab = death, a missed tech = death makes lucas deadly to all.
Grab= Death??? Is there one?
 

mitani

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so its finally been posted. this has been known by word of mouth since beginning of april, nice to see someone informing others.

lucas is in fact one of the leaders in doing the jab lock.
many of his moves are good at leading into the dtilt jab lock, but his dair being the best by far.
at 45%, spike with bair from a full hop and run to the fallen opponent and lock.
at 30% do a falling fair from a full hop

the not so reliable at all ones are
at 15-17% do a nair

now something fun
at 80% you can...
*do a semi-infinite with dair if you repeatedly do it consecutively without the lag, and its only semi-infinite because the opponent can tech out of it.
*do a "reversed" jab lock by starting it out the same way you would normally do it with a dair, except after you do the dtilt, tilt the stick in the opposite direction while crouching to turn around and then immediately do a dair toward the fallen opponent and lock'em all the way to the end of the field!

***NOTE*** YOU CANNOT JAB LOCK WITH LUCAS IN YOSHI'S ISLAND (BRAWL)***NOTE***

Always, always end with the fsmash, UNLESS you want to drain the time down for some reason then you can do the reversed jab lock and bring them to the other side of the field.

Finally, weights play a role in this jab lock. You'll find it more difficult to jab lock characters like Captain Falcon because he bounces high after the dtilt so you just have to be patient.

Oh wait, you can also do a "true" infinite on stages that have walls or objects that act as walls such as the falling blocks in kirby's dream land by locking them towards these places, but to be careful not to bring them too close that it would destroy them, and just get as close to them with the tip of lucas's toes, there you can just spam dtilt without caring about the timing or direction because it will always hit. they can then be brought to about 300% until they can get out of it, just fsmash them into space before that happens.

i have a TON of videos on these, and i'll be providing them later if i can find some time. also, i'd like to see if i was the first to discover this by comparing my replay dates. i knew that the jab lock character list would be missing something so i went through all the characters again just to confirm...all it was missing was lucas. again, videos soon, with everything i said except the nair one i think.

edit: just voicing my opinion here, i read all that bs about not using lucas in tournaments because of the grab shananigans and i thought it was crap, but we'll see who would want to get close enough to grab before they are eaten by a dair. we'll see.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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I'm sure videos would help a lot. Thanks.

Really people, it's not that hard to understand:

When you hit with the last two hits of Dair, the opponent is popped up very slightly by the third hit, and then slammed into the ground at close range with the last hit.

The window for teching is TINY since they barely leave the ground before meeting it again.

Once Lucas lands, he can use down tilt to jab lock the opponent, since they can't do anything if they didn't tech. You can use down tilt as many times as you want until you reach the end of the stage, or are ready to KO, providing that you time each hit correctly.

Sonic and Mario's jab lock setups are OK, but the teching windows are too big for them to be as reliable as Lucas's.
 

Tyr_03

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Not to put the technique down or anything but just because there's a small window for teching doesn't mean it's going to make the move work out for Lucas. For example in Melee, Fox and Falco's Down throws sent the opponent literally straight into the ground but once you got the timing down for teching it it was incredibly easy, to the point where Fox and Falco players almost never throw downward because they know it will be teched immediately and that there are much better options.

So yeah when you're playing against players who aren't experienced at fighting Lucas you're going to be able to do this all you want and rack up some good damage. But once you get to higher calibur players they will quickly learn to tech it and escape. So the best I can see this is as a noob killer. Probably good to know, I just don't want people to get too excited and think that it's going to bring Lucas up in the tiers or anything. Anyhow good info guys.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Not to put the technique down or anything but just because there's a small window for teching doesn't mean it's going to make the move work out for Lucas. For example in Melee, Fox and Falco's Down throws sent the opponent literally straight into the ground but once you got the timing down for teching it it was incredibly easy, to the point where Fox and Falco players almost never throw downward because they know it will be teched immediately and that there are much better options.

So yeah when you're playing against players who aren't experienced at fighting Lucas you're going to be able to do this all you want and rack up some good damage. But once you get to higher calibur players they will quickly learn to tech it and escape. So the best I can see this is as a noob killer. Probably good to know, I just don't want people to get too excited and think that it's going to bring Lucas up in the tiers or anything. Anyhow good info guys.
Fox and Falco's down throw was different because there was a very large and very obvious animation before the actual hit, and that was fairly consistent.

Lucas's down air is a lot less predictable, and the window for teching is even smaller than Fox or Falco's down throw was in Melee. It can also be delayed, mindgamed into, or you can hit with 3 hits rather than just 2 to throw off the timing some more.

Unless the opponent was paying attention to the first two hits of Dair (the ones that miss) the actual reflexes to respond to the last two hits with a perfect tech are almost beyond human reaction time.
 

Tyr_03

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Hmm I'd have to see a video of it to see whether I agree or not. Level 9 computers can definetly tech this kind of thing but they're pretty dang amazing at it. Needs tournament testing.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Hmm I'd have to see a video of it to see whether I agree or not. Level 9 computers can definetly tech this kind of thing but they're pretty dang amazing at it. Needs tournament testing.
Level 9 computers stuff it up on occasion too, so my guess is that they were programmed to make mistakes.

Yes, it would be possible for a very good opponent to tech this often, but in order to do that, they would have to count every one of Lucas's down air hits and carefully time their tech accordingly.

If your opponent is in the middle of say, attacking and you hit them with this move, they are not going to have time to move their finger to the shield button in time, or perhaps they'll do it early, which throws it off as well due to the springyness of the controller.

Either way, teching this is very precise stuff.
 

Earthbound360

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Hey, I posted this before you
Yes, for Lucas, not Ness
Oh well, w/e

Anyways, you forgot to point out a couple of things that could compliment this technique.
1. On wall stages, it's near an infinite.
2. On walk off stages, you can shove the opponent off the edge with this if you can do it while not seeing Lucas.
 

Galeon

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so how is it? Dtilt, take a step forward, dtilt? Maybe my timing's messed up but when I go after them to dtilt more, they stand up by then.
 

Earthbound360

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^^^
You've gotta get up quick and move closer to them and dtilt some more.
You have the time, it's just kinda narrow.
 

mitani

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Not to put the technique down or anything but just because there's a small window for teching doesn't mean it's going to make the move work out for Lucas. For example in Melee, Fox and Falco's Down throws sent the opponent literally straight into the ground but once you got the timing down for teching it it was incredibly easy, to the point where Fox and Falco players almost never throw downward because they know it will be teched immediately and that there are much better options.

So yeah when you're playing against players who aren't experienced at fighting Lucas you're going to be able to do this all you want and rack up some good damage. But once you get to higher calibur players they will quickly learn to tech it and escape. So the best I can see this is as a noob killer. Probably good to know, I just don't want people to get too excited and think that it's going to bring Lucas up in the tiers or anything. Anyhow good info guys.
correct, it will most likely lead into tech chases or missed techs



Video please!

I do the D-air and they spike, then land, D-Tilt but after lets say four or five D-Tilts they escape? (then I end up doing a Downward Angled F-Tilt which is pretty sweet)
once you get the first d-tilt hit, lightly press forward toward the foe then do another d-tilt. you might find your thumb slipping off every once in a while, but after you get that first d-tilt in you can reposition your thumb onto the stick :laugh:

videos will be coming soon...right after this youtube maintenance! :mad:
 

Fhed

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cool. need to learn some new techniques. alspo, i'm sounding completely noobish, but what exactly is teching and how do u do it?
Its when u press "L" or "R" right when u hit the ground from when u fal to the ground from an attck. If u do this ull get up quicker from the fall. If u press right or left after the tech, ull roll to the direction u pressed.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Those are nice, but they only demonstrate the jab lock by using a Dair on an aerial opponent.

If you do it to an opponent who's standing and only hit with the last two hits of the attack, the teching window is much, much smaller.
 

Levitas

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Lol at the fact that we could legitimately use this as a stalling tactic and it wouldn't get banned because they can tech out of it. It takes what, like 40 seconds to cross FD?
 

mitani

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Those are nice, but they only demonstrate the jab lock by using a Dair on an aerial opponent.

If you do it to an opponent who's standing and only hit with the last two hits of the attack, the teching window is much, much smaller.
If you want me to, I can try to make a video of it...unfortunately mine don't reflect that. I guess the best way to show it would be going to training @ 1/4 speed?

Lol at the fact that we could legitimately use this as a stalling tactic and it wouldn't get banned because they can tech out of it. It takes what, like 40 seconds to cross FD?
You don't have to do the reversed one. You can just bring them to 115% or so and fsmash them.

wow I could actually get to like FD once again. Thank you, mitani. Time to practice.
Hey, you're welcome.:chuckle:
 

Earthbound360

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yep, this works great. i can usually get about 6-7 dtilts in before fsmashing/ftilting.
You can get in way more than that, you just have to keep up the timing nd keep moving.

I suggest you guys practice doind the dtilt as little as possible when locking with this. It makes it easier to time getting up and moving which could in the long run, lead to more dtilts rather than spamming them in one place.

Remember, they suffer a bit of hitstun after bouncing up again from a jab lock.

Man, if this could work at any percent, Lucas would KILL!:chuckle:
 

Tyr_03

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Great videos. Shows the technique very well. And YAY FOR SOMEONE GETTING A VID OF THE PKT1 INVINCIBILITY FRAMES!! I've had vids of that on my Wii for weeks and am completely unable to get it onto my computer. Good to have video proof of that for everyone (even if it's useless in practice.)

It's a nice technique that'll help Lucas out a lot but once we get to the top level players it's going to be pretty much impossible to pull off. Yeah the tech window is small but we're talking about Melee vets here. I really doubt that Cort, M2K, PC Chris etc. are going to have any trouble teching a move like that even if it's unexpected. Tech chasing I find doesn't get you terribly far in Brawl unfortunately. Maybe a free PK Fire or a forward tilt or something but I doubt you could get much more no matter how well you tech chased it because of Brawl's slower movement speed. But who cares, it's freaking sweet and helps out Lucas a lot. Looking forward to trying this out in a competitive setting.
 

mitani

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Great videos. Shows the technique very well. And YAY FOR SOMEONE GETTING A VID OF THE PKT1 INVINCIBILITY FRAMES!! I've had vids of that on my Wii for weeks and am completely unable to get it onto my computer. Good to have video proof of that for everyone (even if it's useless in practice.)

It's a nice technique that'll help Lucas out a lot but once we get to the top level players it's going to be pretty much impossible to pull off. Yeah the tech window is small but we're talking about Melee vets here. I really doubt that Cort, M2K, PC Chris etc. are going to have any trouble teching a move like that even if it's unexpected. Tech chasing I find doesn't get you terribly far in Brawl unfortunately. Maybe a free PK Fire or a forward tilt or something but I doubt you could get much more no matter how well you tech chased it because of Brawl's slower movement speed. But who cares, it's freaking sweet and helps out Lucas a lot. Looking forward to trying this out in a competitive setting.
I like the fact that you can jump cancel out of a shield into the dair. Now it's like you said how many top players will tech it once they've got it down, but I would sort of compare it to Chun-Li's Houyokusen special in 3rd Strike where if you make good of mind games it can be tricky to detect. (Though I never play Chun-Li, I'm a Ken guy.) Again, only tourneys will tell.

does it work when the opponent trip?
No, sorry...I wish though :D PKT can trip and I thought it would be pretty sweet to have a PKT hit and lead into a jab lock...but sadly no.:(
 

Earthbound360

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Man, if it could work with a trip, Ness and Lucas would have pretty broken jab locks :laugh:
You could jab lock on accident! Just do a dtilt fury and before you knew it, you would jab lock them.

This is really hard to get the D-tilt to the slight step forward back to a D-Tilt ...

I'll always end up F-Tilt'ing after like one or two


tough technique ...
It's tough at first, but you can get used to it. It's like getting used to PKT2 recovery.
 

mitani

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This is really hard to get the D-tilt to the slight step forward back to a D-Tilt ...

I'll always end up F-Tilt'ing after like one or two


tough technique ...
Don't do it too fast, but don't do it too slow. You can walk a couple of steps before you do the next d-tilt without the opponent recovering. Just keep practicing.
 
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