New, useful AT: Inverse boost grab/Boost pivot grabbing.

Man_With_Thooo · May 14, 2008

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD9II3yhHlg

CHARACTER SHOWCASE: Part1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qark60PsIQ

Part2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpMPQnabTEs&feature=user

Hey, everybody! While fooling around with the new AT, Boost Grabbing, I was able to find another new technique (Thanks, NZA, for inspiring me to try this out). Basically what happens in this AT is that you slide in one direction while doing a standing grab facing the other direction. The slide is longer with some characters compared to others, and I've found out that Falco seems to benefit most from this judging by the characters I've tested it out with.

How To:

Doing this is similar to Boost Smashing and Boost Grabbing. What you do is you dash, then tap down on the C-stick, then press Z+(The opposite direction you're facing) right away. So if let's say you wanna slide left while grabbing to the right, you have to press this button combination:

Joystick-Left --> Cstick-Down --> Z+Right

Directions are reversed if you wanna slide right while grabbing to the left, of course.

Uses:

So far, here are the uses I've found for this tecnique:

-Catching your opponent by surprise.
-Grabbing and throwing your opponent from the opposite side you're on (Assuming you want to do a throw other than the BThrow).
-Changing directions during chain grabs.
-Possibly a good substitute for wavedashing.

Characters that benefit most from this (Credits to locuan128):

Characters who benefit from this (when I write benefit I mean a difference from the Pivot Grab to the Boost Grab):

Samus, Luigi, Sheik, Fox, Falco, Diddy Kong, Pikachu, Squirtle, Ike, Yoshi (not so much but more than others), Wolf, Lucario, Sonic, Toon Link, Olimar, Captain Falcon (Crazy good the difference is seen pretty quick), Lucas.

I still need to go under more testing but these are the characters that have had the most difference up to now.

Characters that were not included there is because there is no difference from their pivot grabs to their boost grab, or their boost grab is less than the pivot grab, or no effect...

Please check out the video above. Oh, and I'm sorry if this technique has been discovered before. I've checked the list of ATs and used the search function, but I haven't found anything similar to this.

EDIT: Just a reminder: This technique grants you this kind of momentum instantly, even when you've only been dashing for like less than a second. Pivot Grabbing, though, can't gain you momentum this far unless you've been dashing for a little more than a second or so.

Link_in_park · May 14, 2008

Sorry to break it to you, but this is old. D:

Man_With_Thooo · May 14, 2008

Seriously, huh? That's strange; I wasn't able to find this technique anywhere in the net.

That's unless, of course, you're talking about the pivot grab, which isn't the same technique. This one provides a lot of instant horizontal momentum

Tristan_win · May 14, 2008

Really Link as I'm on the boards like every single day and I've never seen this before?

What most likely happen was someone made a big thread about boot grabbing and he briefly touch this.

Anyways this looks pretty interesting Thooo and useful, thank you for making Brawl meta game just a little bit better by making this common knowledge/finding this.

Browny · May 14, 2008

i think this is only really useful for ness, since hes the only one whos f and b-throw have such dramatic differences that it really is the difference between winning and losing depending on which side you grab them with.

phanna · May 14, 2008

So just to make sure I'm on the same page, this is starting a dash attack but grabbing instead, correct? And in the video you do the reverse grab the Dojo described as "pivot grabbing" yes?

Man_With_Thooo · May 14, 2008

So just to make sure I'm on the same page, this is starting a dash attack but grabbing instead, correct? And in the video you do the reverse grab the Dojo described as "pivot grabbing" yes?

No, what I did is completely different form the one stated in the Dojo. In the dojo, it says that doing a 180 degree grab will increase your range, though it doesn't keep much horizontal momentum. Reverse Boost Smashing doesn't increase your range by much and instead grants you a lot of horizontal momentum while grabbing, which is exactly what I did in the video. Just try it out yourself, then you'll see the difference.

Locuan · May 14, 2008

After testing it for a while this are my results:

Procedure:

1. Tested this method
2. Did the Pivot Grab
3. Compared Both

They are really similar techniques but with the boost grab you do get more horizontal distance than you would normally do with a pivot grab. Even though you can get the same distance with a Pivot Grab (although it is harder to do so) than if you do this Inverse boost grab method. I still need more practice but I'll update if I find anything new while testing this.

Man_With_Thooo · May 14, 2008

I compared this with the pivot grab too, and it seems like the pivot dashing needs you to dash for a second or so before gaining this much horizontal momentum, unless of course I'm doing it wrong. This technique, though, allows you to gain this kind of momentum with barely any dashing involved.

Tristan_win · May 14, 2008

locuan128 said:
After testing it for a while this are my results:

Procedure:

1. Tested this method
2. Did the Pivot Grab
3. Compared Both

They are really similar techniques but with the boost grab you do get more horizontal distance than you would normally do with a pivot grab. Even though you can get the same distance with a Pivot Grab (although it is harder to do so) than if you do this Inverse boost grab method. I still need more practice but I'll update if I find anything new while testing this.

I highly doubt this is easier then the normal pivot grab as you need to interrupt a dash attack to do so and for people who use Sheik this is difficult.

Locuan · May 14, 2008

Tristan_win said:
I highly doubt this is easier then the normal pivot grab as you need to interrupt a dash attack to do so and for people who use Sheik this is difficult.

It is not easier I can assure you that but you do get more distance as for Sheik she gets way more distance than she would get from a Pivot Grab, when I tested it this is most notable with Fox.

My procedure is:

Training mode on final destination.

Go to the corner of the stage then run to the center before hitting the middle diamond of the stage do a pivot grab or the boost grab.

As with Fox, when I did a Pivot Grab he got to the center of the diamond with a boost grab. He got to the other corner of the diamond. I think I can upload a vid but it is really poor quality (my camera is bad...).

Man_With_Thooo · May 14, 2008

locuan128 said:
It is not easier I can assure you that but you do get more distance as for Sheik she gets about a two step more distance, when I tested it this is most notable with Fox.

My procedure is:

Training mode on final destination.

Go to the corner of the stage then run to the center before hitting the middle diamond of the stage do a pivot grab or the boost grab.

As with Fox, when I did a Pivot Grab he got to the center of the diamond with a boost grab. He got to the other corner of the diamond. I think I can upload a vid but it is really poor quality (my camera is bad...).

I suggest that you try doing the techniques right after dashing rather than doing these when you hit the diamond. As I have said earlier, Reverse Boost Grabbing grants you instant horizontal momentum while Pivot Grabbing requires you to dash for a second or two before gaining momentum this far. In fact, I'm probably gonna edit the first post with this little piece of information to prevent confusion.

Locuan · May 14, 2008

Man_With_Thooo said:
I suggest that you try doing the techniques right after dashing rather than doing these when you hit the diamond. As I have said earlier, Reverse Boost Grabbing grants you instant horizontal momentum while Pivot Grabbing requires you to dash for a second or two before gaining momentum this far. In fact, I'm probably gonna edit the first post with this little piece of information to prevent confusion.

Yea that is what I am doing, just initianing the technique at that instance so that it can be comparable with the pivot grab.

My method:

Results:

Mario: Not much difference, not very useful with him.
DK: Actually covers less distance than his pivot grab.
Link: About a foot more of distance. (not in like measuring feet but as in link's foot)
Samus: No difference.
ZSS: About two foots of distance.
Kirby: Hard to do but when done about a two foot more distance.
Fox: FOX USERS MUST USE THIS. LOL it's pivot grab difference to the boost grab is incredible.

Well I'm not gonna test it with the other characters because I saw a pattern here.

My theory is characters that have a dash attack longer than their pivot grabs will get a benefit from this technique maybe not by much but it will still be there.

ph00tbag · May 14, 2008

That looks stupid good with Falco. That's all I can really say.

Man_With_Thooo · May 14, 2008

locuan128 said:
Yea that is what I am doing, just initianing the technique at that instance so that it can be comparable with the pivot grab.

My method:

Results:

Mario: Not much difference, not very useful with him.
DK: Actually covers less distance than his pivot grab.
Link: About a foot more of distance. (not in like measuring feet but as in link's foot)
Samus: No difference.
ZSS: About two foots of distance.
Kirby: Hard to do but when done about a two foot more distance.
Fox: FOX USERS MUST USE THIS. LOL it's pivot grab difference to the boost grab is incredible.

Well I'm not gonna test it with the other characters because I saw a pattern here.

My theory is characters that have a dash attack longer than their pivot grabs will get a benefit from this technique maybe not by much but it will still be there.

Well then, I guess this will end up like boost-smashing where only a few characters benefit from this, but the benefits are quite helpful.

Tyr_03 · May 14, 2008

Kind of cool looking but I doubt it's going to be wonderfully useful. Try a video of Snake or Sheik doing it. There's should be more dramatic if it's the same thing as boost grab and stuff.

Man_With_Thooo · May 14, 2008

Sure, I'll check it out and try to get a video up soon.

jesterlolz · May 14, 2008

Does the c-stick have to be set on smash, or would c-stick special work as well (I think they both make you do dash attack).

iamthelifeonmars · May 14, 2008

with falco, does the whole process of doing this take longer than a dashing grab? what im basically asking is if the CG is still inescapable if you do this boost pivot grab thing. and im also wondering if you can catch opponents after they take enough damage to DI out of dashing grab range (while still in hitstun). and yet another question: does the regular dash attack cancelled grab make it possible to cg your opponent for longer? i've never really tried it and i'm currently without a wii, so i can't test it

its gonna be really fun and impressive looking if you can dthrow in a different direction every grab to high percents

Locuan · May 14, 2008

Tyr_03 said:
Kind of cool looking but I doubt it's going to be wonderfully useful. Try a video of Snake or Sheik doing it. There's should be more dramatic if it's the same thing as boost grab and stuff.

That's what I thought at first but neither Snake nor Sheik get a lot of "boost" from this...

Man_With_Thooo said:

Well then, I guess this will end up like boost-smashing where only a few characters benefit from this, but the benefits are quite helpful.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately that's what I think as well.

Man_With_Thooo · May 14, 2008

iamthelifeonmars said:
with falco, does the whole process of doing this take longer than a dashing grab? what im basically asking is if the CG is still inescapable if you do this boost pivot grab thing. and im also wondering if you can catch opponents after they take enough damage to DI out of dashing grab range (while still in hitstun). and yet another question: does the regular dash attack cancelled grab make it possible to cg your opponent for longer? i've never really tried it and i'm currently without a wii, so i can't test it

its gonna be really fun and impressive looking if you can dthrow in a different direction every grab to high percents

The CG only lasts just a TINY BIT longer, so this wouldn't be so useful if you're expecting to CG up to like 60% or so. Still, this is a fast method for switching directions during a CG. It probably only takes a few frames longer than the dashing grab, but nothing big.

That's what I thought at first but neither Snake nor Sheik get a lot of "boost" from this...

Actually, Shiek gets A LOT of boost from this. Even more of a boost than Fox and Falco. She probably has the longest one in the game, though it doesn't seem like it benefits her as much as it benefits Falco. Snake, though, barely gets a boost from this.

Luigi's an interesting case, though. He doesn't gain much momentum during the grab itself, but he has quite a lot of a slide afterwards. New wavedash, maybe?

I should be able to take a video once I have the time.

Locuan · May 14, 2008

Characters who benefit from this (when I write benefit I mean a difference from the Pivot Grab to the Boost Grab):

Samus, Luigi, Sheik, Fox, Falco, Diddy Kong, Pikachu, Squirtle, Ike, Yoshi (not so much but more than others), Wolf, Lucario, Sonic, Toon Link, Olimar, Captain Falcon (Crazy good the difference is seen pretty quick), Lucas.

I still need to go under more testing but these are the characters that have had the most difference up to now.

Characters that were not included there is because there is no difference from their pivot grabs to their boost grab, or their boost grab is less than the pivot grab, or no effect...

Edit 1:

Man_With_Thooo said:

Actually, Shiek gets A LOT of boost from this. Even more of a boost than Fox and Falco.

Click to expand...

I have to disagree with you here, Captain Falcon and Fox get the most boost from what I have tested, followed by Sheik then Falco.

Man_With_Thooo said:

Luigi's an interesting case, though. He doesn't gain much momentum during the grab itself, but he has quite a lot of a slide afterwards. New wavedash, maybe?

Click to expand...

Here it's a different story I agree with you actually he does get momentum that's what allows him to slide more afterwards . Either way this seems like a good technique for spacing there for Luigi. (Gotta update my Luigi guide :D).

Man_With_Thooo · May 14, 2008

Thanks for all the info, Loucan! I'll go and edit the first post with your data. Thanks.

SketchHurricane · May 14, 2008

While trying this I've actually done it without the c-stick with Fox. Just by slightly altering the timing of the turn around grab (by error, really) you can get it to boost without the dash cancel. It might work for other characters too. The dash cancel method is more reliable though.

Man_With_Thooo · May 15, 2008

I'm gonna edit this post when I've got a video up. The video will show this technique applied with all characters, or if not most.

The_NZA · May 15, 2008

Yo. NASTY Man of Thoo! And I feel honored to
1. Be semi credited
and
2. To have coined the phrase "Boost-Grabbing", even if it was a natural progression from Boost Dashing

. Be thankful its not called DLX-Grab

Dolphin-Safe · May 15, 2008

The_NZA said:
Yo. NASTY Man of Thoo! And I feel honored to
1. Be semi credited
and
2. To have coined the phrase "Boost-Grabbing", even if it was a natural progression from Boost Dashing . Be thankful its not called DLX-Grab

Cancelling a dash attack with a grab to gain distance has been called boost grabbing for many years since it existed in Melee as well. The term boost smashing, or cancelling a dash attack with a smash attack to get distance which is now possible in Brawl, came from that rather than the other way around.

Also http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157534

The reverse version of it is mentioned too at the bottom.

Tristan_win said:
Really Link as I'm on the boards like every single day and I've never seen this before?

You did post in that thread though :laugh:

Locuan · May 15, 2008

Dolphin-Safe said:
Cancelling a dash attack with a grab to gain distance has been called boost grabbing for many years since it existed in Melee as well. The term boost smashing, or cancelling a dash attack with a smash attack to get distance which is now possible in Brawl, came from that rather than the other way around.

Also http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157534

The reverse version of it is mentioned too at the bottom.

You did post in that thread though

Hm I see, well I did not know about that moves existance in Melee. Either way at least this thread provides an insight on how to perform it effectively.

sFoster · May 15, 2008

This move is cool, thanks. I might actually use it... maybe

Krigar · May 15, 2008

For the life of me I cannot get the timing at all for CF (he's a ***** to boost smash with too.. not that boost smashing was worth it for it). Any chance someone could get a video of Falcon and some of the other good chars that benefit from this?

Man_With_Thooo · May 15, 2008

I finally have the character showcase video(s). These video shows more or less how much characters benefit from this, though it doesn't show the maximum potential of every character since I haven't mastered the timing with every character. Also, please note that the really short grabs you see are mostly just ordinary pivot grabs. These are just there to make it easier to see the difference between Pivot Grabbing and Reverse Boost Grabbing.

Part1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qark60PsIQ

Part2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpMPQnabTEs&feature=user

Man_With_Thooo · May 16, 2008

Just edited the first post so that the videos will be more obvious.

Pikaville · May 16, 2008

Awesome find dude.

chaoechidna · Jan 11, 2009

OK. I've tried everything, and I still can't do it. Run right--> smash c stick down--> press Z+ opposite direction. It hasn't worked once for me with any character. They only grab, or if i hit with the dash attack they don't even initiate a grab at all. My c stick is set to smash attacks but does dash attacks when running, and i still haven't gotten it at all. Any help? I'm getting pissed at the fact that I suck at it so much..

Yoshi Kirishima · Jan 11, 2009

WHAT THE FU--BOOM! (YTP reference)

SERIOUSLy, WTFTWTFDTWFMOGMOGMOGMWOHAXORZ HAXORZ HAXORAZ!!!

NICE FIND. EXCELENT FIND. THIS IS AMAZING. this is epic. pwnage. great jon. thanks.

INFINITE CHAIN GRABS FTW XD XD.

ok now for some serioiusness... wow, this is just amazing, i wonder what will happent o epople's CGs now, there may be more CGs now with this and/or turn some CGs into ICGs.

thank you for this find! And your info is very organized, that is very convenient with the videos!

Thanks again! :D

Edit: to further this find, i've just realized that this concept is very similar to that of DACUS, considering the inputs you use. Have you tried using this, except facing the same direction? Like: dash right, dsmash, grab. It might work just like a DACUS, except it does a grab and not a upsmash...

cman · Jan 11, 2009

This is the same thing falcos have been doing forever right? I didn't realize it was useful for anyone else though.

Edit- Apparently this is from may. woops.

Crizthakidd · Jan 11, 2009

falco fox falcon and some others do this well but idk if this thread is a bumbped one or not its old lol

Natch · Jan 11, 2009

Ragnarok17 said:
WHAT THE FU--BOOM! (YTP reference)

SERIOUSLy, WTFTWTFDTWFMOGMOGMOGMWOHAXORZ HAXORZ HAXORAZ!!!

NICE FIND. EXCELENT FIND. THIS IS AMAZING. this is epic. pwnage. great jon. thanks.

INFINITE CHAIN GRABS FTW XD XD.

ok now for some serioiusness... wow, this is just amazing, i wonder what will happent o epople's CGs now, there may be more CGs now with this and/or turn some CGs into ICGs.

thank you for this find! And your info is very organized, that is very convenient with the videos!

Thanks again! :D

Edit: to further this find, i've just realized that this concept is very similar to that of DACUS, considering the inputs you use. Have you tried using this, except facing the same direction? Like: dash right, dsmash, grab. It might work just like a DACUS, except it does a grab and not a upsmash...

This is over 6 months old.

Close topic plox.

Yoshi Kirishima · Jan 11, 2009

Oops didn't realize this was from May...

Btw I noticed that you could change the amount you want to slide... in what way would you have to time your inputs different to make your slide smaller/larger (unless if there's no general pattern)?

New, useful AT: Inverse boost grab/Boost pivot grabbing.

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