autocancelled aerials

Tyr_03 · May 14, 2008

This is a technique some of us have been doing for a while now, possibly without even realizing it. Hopefully I can explain it a little better and it can possibly see some wider use. This is not the same as regular auto lag cancelling aerials in which the move has ended before the character lands.

Autocancelling is when an aerial's animation is cancelled at a certain point in its duration by touching the ground. This puts the character into their nuetral standing position out of which any move can be done. This is usually during the begining of the aerial's animation although the time window is slightly different for each.

It doesn't work with some aerials for one of two reasons:
1. The move's hitbox does not come out before it autcancels on the ground.
2. The move has a specific landing animation that overrides the cancel.

This is a list of all aerials that the hitbox will come out and still have the move be cancelled this way.

Mario
Uair, Nair, Bair

DK
Bair

Link
Bair, Fair, Nair

Samus
Bair, Fair, Nair, Uair, Dair

Kirby
Uair, Nair

Fox
Nair, Dair

Pikachu
None

Marth
Uair, Nair, Fair

Game and Watch
Bair, Nair, Uair

Luigi
None

Diddy
Bair, Nair

Zelda
Nair

Sheik
Fair, Bair, Nair

Pit
None

Metaknight
Fair, Bair, Uair

Falco
Bair, Dair, Nair

Squirtle
Fair, Bair, Nair

Ivysaur
Bair, Nair

Charizard
None

Ike
Nair

Snake
None

Peach
Fair, Uair, Bair, Nair, Dair

Yoshi
Bair, Nair, Uair

Ganondorf
None

Ice Climbers
Nair

King Dedede
None

Wolf
Bair, Uair, Nair

Lucario
Nair

Ness
Fair, Bair, Uair

Sonic
Bair

Bowser
None

Wario
Uair

Toon Link
Bair

ROB
Bair, Nair

Olimar
Fair, Bair

Captain Falcon
Uair, Nair

Jigglypuff
Bair, Uair, Fair

Lucas
Bair, Uair

Zero Suit Samus
Uair, Bair, Nair

I'm sure there will be a good amount of controversy over some of these because of how precise some of the testing has to be. Some aerials have so little lag even when not autocancelled that it is hard to notice the difference. However if you jab immediately after both, the autocancelled one will come out noticably faster.

If I have made any errors please feel free to tell me about it. I'm by no means an expert with every character so it's pretty likely that I made a mistake or two.

phanna · May 14, 2008

Ah, landing while you perform an aerial. Revolutionary. Almost as good as the other 'technique' of completing an aerial in the air to avoid any landing lag.

These are both very, very simple mechanics... still, your post & list helps people understand how they should use this, so nice.

fkacyan · May 14, 2008

A lot of people have been doing this intuitively. I thought knowing which moves you could do this with was just general character knowledge.

I will say knowing which aerials people might try to do this to me with with OTHER characters is handy, though.

Tyr_03 · May 14, 2008

Yeah I know it's a pretty obvious thing but surprisingly few people seem to really understand what's going on. Plus since it doesn't actually work with every aerial because of animations put in I thought it was worth mentioning. For instance none of Pikachu's aerials work for this because they all have some sort of animation that adds lag no matter when you land with it. Looking back at an earlier post I noticed Yuna didn't quite understand what was going on when that one guy showed the video of Peach's aerials. So obviously it's not just noobs who aren't quite getting the picture.

Simple built in mechanics? Yes. Widely understood? Not quite. So hopefully this thread will help. I make no claims on it as an "advanced technique" whatsoever.

Zankoku · May 14, 2008

Isn't this just autocanceling? I thought landing after an aerial animation was finished was just that - it's not canceling anything. Landing during an attack animation and canceling the lag sounds like autocanceling to me.

Corner-Trap · May 14, 2008

I thought we had a name for this already, lagless aerials.

Tyr_03 · May 14, 2008

- "Auto-Canceling" aerials
L-Canceling is gone, but there exists a common-sense trick for eliminating lag after your aerials. Simply perform an aerial such that the majority of the attack's animation is over when you touch the ground. Each move has different timing (there's probably a relationship between this and IASA frames), but with practice, "Auto-Canceling" should become second nature.

That's the definition from the AT stickied thread. For this, rather than cancelling it by touching the ground after the animation is through, your touching the ground early on during the aerial animation which cancels it. And no these are not "lagless aerials." Read the thread.

The term autocancelling would apply better to this but the name was already taken.

Dolphin-Safe · May 15, 2008

That definition is not accurate. While not every move has them on both ends of the duration, auto-cancel windows can and do exist both at the beginning as well as the end of the move. It's just a programmed part of an attack where if you happen to land during that period you do a normal landing instead of the attack's landing.

The ending auto-cancel is landing from a given point and anytime after then, while the beginning one is from a point and anytime before then.

N.A.G.A.C.E · May 15, 2008

can't you cancel the lag on ganondorf's dair?

Tyr_03 · May 15, 2008

Dolphin-Safe: I completely agree with you. I have no idea why the definition is inaccurate in the way that it is. For clarity's sake I didn't use the same name because a good number of swf memebers know autocancelling only by that definition.

N.A.G.A.C.E.: You're the perfect example of what I described above. Ganondorf's dair will only lag cancel after the move has completed. Read the thread more carefully.

aznxk3vi17 · May 15, 2008

N.A.G.A.C.E said:
can't you cancel the lag on ganondorf's dair?

This is done by performing the dair as you short hop, thus allowing the animation to finish before you land. The topic in question is for aerials that cancel lag when you land before the animation is finished.

To my knowledge, Wario's Nair autocancels. Fair might too.

Tyr_03 · May 15, 2008

^^
Pretty sure they don't actually. They just have very small lag time upon landing. If I remember correctly there is a very short animation where Wario falls on the ground before he can attack. If an aerial can be canceled this way the character will switch to their standing position immediately. For Wario these are slightly slower than a cancelled aerial would be.

aznxk3vi17 · May 15, 2008

Tyr_03 said:
^^
Pretty sure they don't actually. They just have very small lag time upon landing. If I remember correctly there is a very short animation where Wario falls on the ground before he can attack. If an aerial can be canceled this way the character will switch to their standing position immediately. For Wario these are slightly slower than a cancelled aerial would be.

Hmm... I am aware of the landing animation, but I never noticed it adding any delay frames to my next attack i.e. I could go straight into a jab. Perhaps it's just a very, very small lag time. My mistake.

Tyr_03 · May 15, 2008

Yeah it's just a very short time because of the natural properties of the aerial. I ran into this a lot with some characters but once you get used to recognizing what it looks like for each character you can tell the difference.

NoVaLombardia · May 15, 2008

Tyr_03 said:
- "Auto-Canceling" aerials
L-Canceling is gone, but there exists a common-sense trick for eliminating lag after your aerials. Simply perform an aerial such that the majority of the attack's animation is over when you touch the ground. Each move has different timing (there's probably a relationship between this and IASA frames), but with practice, "Auto-Canceling" should become second nature.

That's the definition from the AT stickied thread. For this, rather than cancelling it by touching the ground after the animation is through, your touching the ground early on during the aerial animation which cancels it. And no these are not "lagless aerials." Read the thread.

The term autocancelling would apply better to this but the name was already taken.

do these said cancels have any frames of landing lag whatsoever or 0?

Tyr_03 · May 15, 2008

zero frames of lag

Zankoku · May 15, 2008

ZERO frames of lag? I'm pretty sure landing normally without any actions still gives you lag. Autocanceling should result in at least 4 frames of normal landing lag, IASA-able on frame 1, and possibly the 16 frames of fastfall landing lag, IASA-able on frame 4.

Tyr_03 · May 15, 2008

^^^
Hmm well I would assume you're right then since you seem to have done the research. Because you can attack so fast out of it I only assumed there was no lag but it makes more sense that there is the same amount of lag as nomral landing lag with simply the IASA frame on the first frame. I'd have to check again to see if it's different for fastfalling. Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

Droly · May 15, 2008

phanna said:
Ah, landing while you perform an aerial. Revolutionary. Almost as good as the other 'technique' of completing an aerial in the air to avoid any landing lag.

These are both very, very simple mechanics... still, your post & list helps people understand how they should use this, so nice.

wow *** train over here^

N.A.G.A.C.E · May 15, 2008

sorry guess i missed that part in the post

Airgemini · May 15, 2008

Good post.
Yeah I thought Peach was FCing and first. Anyways Im glad she benefits a lot from this.

Corner-Trap · May 15, 2008

Guys this is pretty simple. He isn't talking about auto-canceling aerials where you finish the animation before you land. He's talking about aerials whose animation automatically stops after hitting the ground. This is nothing more than a lagless aerial which has been common since 64.

Tyr_03 · May 15, 2008

Umm not quite Corner-Trap. Yes it's a simple game mechanic but it's not the same as the way lag cancelling work in 64 or Melee. For one thing it doesn't work for every aerial unlike L cancelling in Melee or 64. For another, cancelling the move is dependent on when during the animation you touch the ground, not by pressing any button.

This is just a list to let people know which aerials they can cancel the animation lag of with their character to hopefully develope into combos. No it's not new or gamebreaking. But not everyone knows about it and it isn't being exploited to its fullest in many cases. Hence the thread.

Zankoku · May 15, 2008

Corner-Trap said:
He isn't talking about auto-canceling aerials where you finish the animation before you land.

This is not auto-canceling. If you finish the aerial before you land, you're not canceling anything. It would be stupid to lay a term like auto-canceling on an action that involves not canceling anything.

Doval · May 15, 2008

What Ankoku said, on both accounts (there IS lag upon landing normally, and it's stupid to call this autocanceling, sorry.) It's only an autocancel if you land during the move, and you have the same amount of lag as if you had landed normally (it irks me when people say certain aerials like Ike's n-air are lagless, just because they have less lag than more laggy aerials.)

Crizthakidd · May 15, 2008

doest ddds bair cancel?

and MK has no lag for the lulz

Tyr_03 · May 15, 2008

no it doesn't. No matter how close to the ground you use it Dedede falls on his side.

Ulevo · May 15, 2008

* Subscribes *

This would definitely be a useful list to have for many characters.

Empy · May 16, 2008

Glad to see someone finally taking the time to list the moves.

Good job Tyr. I use it for Ike's Nair all the time it's a pretty important move. It only works to hit people in front of you though while normally you can hind underneath you.

Maybe it's worth noting that because you don't finish the move, on some occasions not all the hitbox's will come out?

St. Viers · May 16, 2008

nice man ^_^

glad to have a list

[subscribed]

Tyr_03 · May 19, 2008

Added Wario's Uair, ROB's Nair and Bair and IC's Nair. Also Jigglypuff's Bair, Uair and Fair.

Someone who plays ROB or ICs and knows what I'm talking about check these because they were difficult to test and I'm not very familiar with the characters. The same goes for Jigglypuff.

SamuraiPanda · May 19, 2008

Done with the right timing, you can autocancel Snake's Uair from a short hop.

St. Viers · May 19, 2008

^^isn't it NOT auto-cancelling if you have to time it so that the move is over?

I could be wrong, but I thought that the point of this was to show moves that just cancel on landing, rather than right before >_>

AzSvFeZ · May 19, 2008

I've been like staring at all these strategies, I like them, I really am noob! like for reals.

Lightning93 · May 19, 2008

Lulz Toon Link, he would be hecka ownage if he could autocancel his dair. People would spam that soooooooooooo much. Well, not everyone. But still I think that would be hilarious if you weren't fighting him for real.

St. Viers · May 19, 2008

wow captain obvious, brilliant entry to smash boards...

it would be hilarious to watch though, just don't spam like that >_<

Lightning93 · May 20, 2008

You always have to have the guy to point out the obvious, mostly because people don't really reflect much on the obvious. It's obvious, what is there to point out? That's where we come in. It makes people think (that maybe that we are complete n00bs). It sounds stupid I know, but maybe there is just someone that will get what I am trying to say. Maybe someone that will point out the obvious, which will actually help get to the deeper meaning. Whatever though, I'm just bored. Whole reason I pointed out that Toon Link thing anyways. God, his airs are so strong anyways for such a little guy... (once again obvious XD)

Benjamin Linus · May 20, 2008

your missing a few. Pikachu can auto cancel his fair as well as pit who can also auto cancel his nair, bair and dair.

Zindura · May 20, 2008

I don't know if it technically "auto-cancels", but Lucas' nair is practically lag-free when interrupted by landing.

I sort-of recall it having a landing animation, though.

Tyr_03 · May 20, 2008

wow posts.

Pretty sure SamuraiPanda is talking about the other autocancelling. Our definitions suck around here. But I'll test Snake out again when I get home just to be sure.

Pikachu's Fair can't be autocancelled and have the hitbox come out. You can get him to spark a little bit but he won't hit anything. The move has very little lag normally though so I can see how you could make the mistake. Pit has a similar issue. His aerials naturally don't have a lot of lag so it seems like you're autocancelling but if you watch his animation it becomes obvious that you are not. Same with Lucas's Nair. It does not autocancel this way.

The way to test whether a move cancels this way or not is to first do a short hop with no aerial at all and upon landing immediately do a jab. Then short hop and while close to the ground do the desired aerial and start hitting A repeatedly for the earliest jab. This should make even the slightest lag obvious and is about the only way to tell the difference for some aerials with very little natural lag. Landing animation is another clear cue to moves that cannot be autocancelled although there are a few that look like they have landing animations but don't actually such as ROB's and Jigglypuff's.

Glad to have people actually checking some of these.

autocancelled aerials

Smash Champion

Dread Phanna

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Never Knows Best

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Smash Apprentice

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Cadet

Smash Champion

Smash Cadet

Smash Champion

Smash Journeyman

Smash Champion

Never Knows Best

Smash Champion

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Chansey

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Never Knows Best

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Apprentice

Smash Cadet

Smash Champion

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