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New Desync and Techniques : Standing Nana Desync, Supergrab and More! *Update 9/6*

DreamScythe

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Joined
Apr 20, 2008
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What is the Standing Nana Desync?

The Standing Nana Desync (SND) is a technique in which a player is able to quickly have the Ice Climbers desync into a highly advantageous stance. When you input the SND, shown below, though you don't need to press A, Nana ends up in a quick dash, while Popo simply spins around. Because of how the Ice Climbers are set up from the SND, they are able to do many excellent techniques that are not only incredibly useful by themselves, but have follow-ups that are unrivaled by any other part of the Ice Climber's arsenal.

_________________________Original Post______________________________________________

First off, I will have to say don't be concerned about my post count, I have been playing Smash since 2006 and have mained IC since early 2007, and I feel that my maining of Ice Climbers shows that I have at least the patience to get over their steep learning curve. That being said, I did not see this technique anywhere on the IC board, including the IC AI/Desync thread, so I am fairly positive that this technique is a new discovery.


On that note, I have discovered a new technique for ICs, though I hesitate to call it a straigh desync because there is so much more you can do out of it than mistime Nana. I discovered it by careful observation of why Nana does the moves that she does, after one day noticing I had done something strange. What I did was pivot FSmash, however, while Popo did an FSmash, Nana at the same time did an USmash. I essentially did a split smash attack. When I analyzed what I did, I discovered that Nana should not have technically have done that USmash. You see, what I inputed on the controller was tap back, tap forward and A, and I unknowingly slid the control stick up. The input for Nana's smash was A then up! Interesting, but I threw it on the backburner so I could work on my chaingrabs.

About three weeks ago I notice I did another weird technique. Seemingly, Nana FSmashed all on her own. I was positive that it wasn't a continued desync(which I do a lot of), and that I was synced up with Nana when it happened. I decided to explore this, and after a couple of hours of trying, I finally reproduced it. I have recently decided to call it the Standing Nana Desync, because of how it seems that Nana is the Climber to initiate the desync.

The Standing Nana Desync

How you do the Standing Nana Desync (SND) is actually kind of complicated to explain. I guarantee that you need to do the SND to actually understand the input required. I will try to explain to the best of my ability though.

UPDATE

For the purposes of other Standing Nana Desync techniques, the Standing Nana Desync is composed of only the input of the Control Stick, and not the A button.

The first thing you need to understand is how turn around without dashing. Then you need to know har far can you move the control stick in one direction quickly without dashing, and learn this position well, becuase this is the heart of the SND. To show you here is some ascii to help you understand how to do it.

Legend
< > are the left and right sides of the control stick well
O is the curent position of the control stick
x neutral position of the control stick
A press and hold A (attack) when the stick is at this position
>>> the direction the IC begin facing


>>>
<-----------O----------->

You need to start with the conrol stick at neutral

>>>
<-------O---x----------->

Move the stick away without dashing, but right on the edge of a dash

>>>
<-----------x---AAAAAAAA>

Then slide the control stick in a dash motion in the direction you initailly faced immediately after doing the first input. While doing this press, and this is important, hold A somewhere towards the end of this motion.

>>>
<-----------x-----------O

Complete the motion. To do this technique right, you need to do the input in one quick and smooth motion, otherwise you will mess up.

If done properly, Nana will charge a FSmash attack by herself, while Popo will be doing one of two things. If you press A on the earlier side, Popo will do a reverse jab attack. If you press A on the later side he will do a simple Ftilt. Both of these have their uses, as the jab variant starts earlier but ends later as you have to hold A to hold Nana's charge, meaning you go through the entire jab combo before Popo can do what he wants. In the Ftilt version, Nana charges her Fsmash a few frames later because they have to face backwards then forwards before the SND starts, but because Popo only does an Ftilt, he can start earlier than the jab version.

The reason why hold A is imperitave is because while you could do a single jab to iceblock SND, you have MUCH more options coming out of a charging N-Fsmash. One of the properties of a lone smash charging Nana is that she will instantly face the direction of whatever Popo is facing, even in mid attack. So dash-dancing the SND effectively creates a double-sided Fsmash as the hitbox goes on both sides of the pair. Another use is the obvious grab while smashing. For some reason you can't grab with Popo while Nana is charging a smash, A has to be released before you can grab. Still, you can grab the frame after you let go of A, which means you can effectively pressure someone with a grab and a smash at the same time. Or better yet, smash 'em then grab them while they are still in hitlag!

Another interesting property of the solo Nana charge smash is the ability to cancel it into another attack. Actually, the only two attacks that can be canceled into are Squall Hammer and Belay. This is already a well known property, but it is particually special for the SND. Squall gives the Climbers excellent approach options out of Standing Nana Desync while belay provides anti air. The reason why SND squall has a purpose rather than just a standing squall is that you can cancel Nana's smash into a team squall at any time, including mid attack. Now I'm not entirely sure about this, as I have been unable to test, but you could concievably use a charged N-Fsmash canceled immediately into team squall on an enemies shield, and not only would it be protected from shieldgrabs, but would shatter the enemies shield. That would leave them free to be grabbed, and you know what to do from there. The belay cancel is also uniquely effective with SND, by the fact that Nana has a HUGE range. If you SND, and then full double jump with Popo and then belay, you will suddenly find Nana beside you and then above smacking any poor ******* that happens to be above you. I call it the Nanaport. The teleport range of Nana is about half of Final Destination, so you got a lot of freedom in choosing were to use it. You can even run with Popo and the Nanaport, meaning you could concievably combo Fsmash into Belay.

Supergrab

After seeing what I could do with the Standing Nana Desync, I thought "What happens if I use the SND motion with other buttons?" With B you just get a squall hammer. With shield you get a technique where Nana rolls while Popo shields, but it is very unreliable. However with Z grab, you get something really special. If you press Z while using the Ftilt SND timing, Nana does a dash grab while Popo rolls foward. This is absolutely incredible, because it is a grab that is near impossible to punish, because even if you knock Nana away, the enemy still has a bloodthirsty Popo behind him. You can't block it, spotdodge, roll away from the ICs, and the only attacks that won't get you grabbed are long lasting double sided attacks like ROB's Dsmash. Jumping is risky for the enemy, and rolling towards the Ice Climbers is safe but puts them out of punishing range. In fact, the only downside I can see of this is the range of the Supergrab is pretty short, about the range of a slightly truncated dash grab. It is awesome


Final notes

The first thing about the Standing Nana Desync is that it is a standing desync. This means that any time the Ice Climbers are together and are simply standing, they can do the SND. Combine the SND with dash cancelling, and suddenly it has great mobility. I feel that the Standing Nana Desync is a huge improvement to the Ice Climber metagame. It beefs up their lackluster approach options with powerful options and relatively unpunishable attacks. It is an effective defensive maneuver, and can be used to apply a great amount of pressure on the enemy. It is incredibly fast, equivalent to or faster than the currently known desyncs. And of course, you can use to simply desync.

__________________________/Original Post________________________________________

Update

After several months of procrastination, and the high possibility of Ice Climbers being the next Smash Back Room discussion character, I have decided to bump my post to remind everybody how awesome the Standing Nana Desync is. To show you how awesome it is, I have decided to show you all the good stuff that I have found you can do with the SND. I also want to remind everybody that I want to see more Standing Nana Desync techniques in your future videos.

The format is

NAME
INPUT
RESULT
DESCRIPTION




SUPERGRAB
SND->Late Z
Nana does a dash grab while Popo rolls
I've already told you about the Supergrab, but to reiterate, Supergrab is a way to attempt to make a grab while preparing to counter any initiative made by an opponent. Almost assures that the opponent will get hit one way or another, this is a slightly slower but much more powerful grab, which is awesome for the ICs. Bthrow with Nana to make an easy regrab with Popo when you successfully landed a Supergrab.

ICE STORM
SND->Down->Down/Forward+B
Popo Blizzards while Nana does a solo Squall right in the middle of the Blizzard
A powerful forward attack, and an excellent replacement for SH double-blizzard. Much more consistent with damage (~14% average with a max of 30%, much better than the 4% of SH blizzard) protects Popo and Nana, has excellent range, and can be just as fast as SH blizzard if done perfectly. On top of that, Popo can actually combo out of Ice Storm with an aerial or a grab! Difficult to predict though.

F-SMASH TRAP
SND->Hold Late A
Nana charges an Fsmash forward while Popo does an Ftilt
A powerful camping setup, Popo is free to do whatever he wants alone after he does the Ftilt, including defend, spam ice blocks, or attack, while Nana is there to provide a faceful of fully-charged Fsmash at the soonest opportunity. Difficult to deal with for opponents, who get smacked by the Fsmash VERY often due to how Nana slides and spins while charging and attacking. Can be canceled by belay and squall.

REVERSE F-SMASH TRAP
SND->Hold Early A
Nana Charges and Fsmash backwards while Popo does a reverse jab combo
The reverse version of Fsmash trap. Use the jab and ftilt to protect the Ice Climbers from harm while they set up the trap. Besides the directionality and speed, there is little difference. If your fast ypu can garb them out of the Fsmash.

U-SMASH TRAP
SND to Up->Hold A
Nana Charges an Usmash while Popo does an Utilt
An anti-air trap that is functionally similar to the Fsmash trap. However, this also has the benefit of being a nasty combo at low precentages. If you hit with the Utilt, you can land the Usmash and cancel it all into a belay attack for a powerful 37% true combo!

B-SYNC
SND->Early Neutral B
Popo does an Ice Block (or reverse Ice Block, depending on timing) while Nana just does a short dash
FASTEST DESYNC IN THE GAME!!!! Even the fabled Pivot B desync is slower than this by a few frames. This is so fast and has so little movement that you can easily go into desync mode right in the opponents face on even the smallest platform. Wouldn't you like the freedom to go into a desync without worries at will? Also naturally goes into desynced ice blocks.

TAUNT TRAP
SND->Any Taunt
Popo Taunts while Nana does a short dash
The opponent sees Popo taunting in their face, but doesn't see Nana right behind him ready to respond to any attack attempt. Usefull for getting the opponent to be reckless and get grabbed or smashed.

D-SMASH PROTECTOR
SND->Dash Backwards(Dashdance)->C-Stick Down + Z
Popo does a backwards dash grab while Nana charges a Dsmash
More of an approach technique than a defensive trap, useful due to the sheer area that a sliding Dsmash covers. Remember to be facing AWAY from the opponent when you do the Dsmash protector. Can be cancelled into squall or belay.

SHIELD ROLL
SND->Shield
Popo Shields while Nana does a Roll backwards or forwards depending on timing
Moderately usefull to put space between Popo and Nana to either surround an opponent and/or set up for a returning Nana attack.

DASH SPACER
SND->Very Late A
Popo does an Ftilt while Nana does a Dash Attack in the same direction
A good ranged spacing attack and decent approach, that as a bonus pops up the opponent for follow-up Uairs, squalls, and belays. The main reason this is a good technique is that Popo is kept quite safe throughout the entire ordeal, while Nana goes in guns blazing.

THE SUPER SPECIAL AWESOME ICE CLIMBER TAUNT
SND->Forward->Forward/Down->Hold until Nana comes to a rest->Side Taunt
Popo and Nana cross their hammers in an epic battle pose
Greatest taunt ever.
 

thesultan2112

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that stuff seems pretty awsome, i'l have to check it out, especailly withthe grab, it sounds like an awosme approach and, as you said unpunishible
 

Jmex

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Very nice post... Will def help everyone, im sure.
 

KRDsonic

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Interesting. I do stuff like this on accident a lot (especially the one where nana rolls while I shield) but I've never bothered to figure out how I do it. I know I've also gotten them completely synced somehow, though I don't know how, but it was handy because at the time their sheilds would go up at the same time with no lag time.

I get the feeling if people master this method you've discovered it would make desyncing a lot easier. Making nana do a blonde roll just doesn't always work like I'd like it to for me.
 

Melee1

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I read how to do the start up desync and I was wondering is there another way to do it? Just curious.
 

DreamScythe

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Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
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I read how to do the start up desync and I was wondering is there another way to do it? Just curious.
Not really, however the only rquirements for smash canceling and the like is that Nana needs to be charging a smash attack while Popo is idle. This can be done with any other desync like pivot B. The reason why SND is so useful is that it is the fastest way into the Nana charge, and automatically sets up for out-of-desync techniques. The Supergrab is specific to this input though. Remember it is a standing desync, so you can pretty much do it instantly anywhere anyway.
 

DreamScythe

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
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I am really suprised not many people replied to my post. I thought I discovered good techniques, and the Ice Climbers community would be interested to hear about it. Especially with the supergrab, which combined with dash cancelling with a shield, not only gains extra distance, but is an approach unparalleled by any other character because it is so difficult to properly punish.

Anyways, I furthered the findings of the Standing Nana Desynch. I discovered that you can use Nana U-smash instead of F-smash by tilting the control stick upwards towards the end of the input. I have been consistently been able to get Popo F-tilt and U-tilt variants of the N U-smash SND. The U-tilt variant is interesting because you could potentially do a Standing Nana Desynch with P U-tilt and N charged U-smash cancelled into belay, all for about 39% damage, which is pretty good for a single upwards attack.

In fact, I am learing that you could potentially do all kinds of combinations of smashes and tilts in a SND. I have done N F-smash and P U-smash, P D-tilt and N dash attack. I have done all kinds of combinations, all of them could be eventually reproduced. All you have to do is find combinations that have some kind of value.

I also found something interesting, which I haven't seen anywhere on the boards. I found that if you jab once, and the time Z exactly at the right time, on the second jab Popo will finish the jab combo while Nana will instead grab. Now, I have been unable to test whether it can be escaped, but if it works it is a assured grab that actually starts a couple frames before a regular standing grab, which makes it the fastest grab in the game. Good if you need to beat someone to the punch with an attack. I guess you could call it a jab-grab or even a Jrab! :laugh:

Right now I am working on why the Standing Nana Desynch works the way it does, and potentially the reason why several other desynchs work the way they do. I suspect it has something to do with buffering attacks and how Nanas synchronization AI works.
 

momochuu

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Sounds like a challenge, but I'll get it down.

Anything for the Iceys. <3
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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I will add more to this later. About to play.
 

Straylit

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First of all, welcome to smash boards. This was very well written and explained. The code made things very clear.

This technique is fantastic, by far the most useful desync i have seen thus far and has SO many options and ways to really make for a fantastic mind game. The only thing i cant do every time without fail is the supergrab but ill be working with all of this over the next couple of days so ill get it down. This is an exceptional find, and ill post back with anything new that you havnt hit on.
 

LaserBust

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I did it, Ive been doing this for a while, lol. Isint this like a turn-a-around desynch.

But anyway, I didnt know there was so many varients, so atleast I learned something new. xD
I gotta try that grab thing..

Nj anyway.
 

Chaco

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I've actually done these things before on accident, but I've never figured out how to do them. Good job. I've already used this. It's quite handy.
 

JKHDaBomb

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this is awesome! I just started using IC's today and I can do it! The only thing I'm confused about is that half the time popo will be the one charging the smash and nana will only be able to do so much since she can't run past her 'barrier'. Any ideas what causes which IC to smash and the other to be free?
 

Ark22

Smash Apprentice
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Wow, this desynch is really amazing! There is so much that you can do with it.
 

JKHDaBomb

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ok i figured out why popo was the one smashing sometimes, i was just dash dancing, lol. i heard that was a way to desynch since nana cant dash dance but im still pretty new to desynching in general. i still think its pretty cool anyway, just dash dance and hold a (a dash dance smash, unless it already has some special name) and nana wish dash attack while popo charges a smash. yeah im sure most of you already knew this but im excited anyway
 

B0NK

Smash Lord
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After testing the "super-grab," every time I use it, Popo rolls too far away from Nana causing Nana to do her own thing and just throw the person in whatever direction Nana feels like. I don't know if this is error on my part and if it is, tell me what I'm doing wrong.
 

JustNoOne

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We need to sticky or but these type of threads in a archive and sticky it. Srsly, it helps new IC users out and it keeps important topics up.
 

swordgard

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Ok sometimes nana doesnt follow when i supergrab...the question is, do i grab when my joystick is near the center right or outer right?
 

Kyu Puff

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I hate to do this but... after reading some of this (especially the B-sync and taunt), I have to say it sounds exactly like the turnaround desynch. I don't play Brawl anymore but I still compiled that huge thread, I never added this desynch because I couldn't quite understand what you were explaining. But, everything... really just sounds like the turnaround desynch.
 

Ceph

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I hate to do this but... after reading some of this (especially the B-sync and taunt), I have to say it sounds exactly like the turnaround desynch. I don't play Brawl anymore but I still compiled that huge thread, I never added this desynch because I couldn't quite understand what you were explaining. But, everything... really just sounds like the turnaround desynch.
Well, the Supergrab wasn't really part of the standard turnaround desynch (altho the reverse is true).

I've been meaning to ask, how do you get that super-special-awesome taunt to work? The one where Nana and Popo cross hammers? Can't figure it out... :confused:
 

I.iZ.nO.1

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Nice stuff. just wanted to throw in an idea i had. I had made this post http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179230 a while back but no one seemed to care for it. It may not be the greatest trick, but i have found it to help me a bit. I sort of discovered this when originally trying out SND. So if you find it worthy enough you can put it in your post if you want. As i said, its not the best, but i surprise my opponents now and then with this. Hope to hear what you think.
 

*P*L*U*R*

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Nice stuff. just wanted to throw in an idea i had. I had made this post http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179230 a while back but no one seemed to care for it. It may not be the greatest trick, but i have found it to help me a bit. I sort of discovered this when originally trying out SND. So if you find it worthy enough you can put it in your post if you want. As i said, its not the best, but i surprise my opponents now and then with this. Hope to hear what you think.
I've actually done this against someone before where I made Nana charge an Fsmash while they were hanging on the edge, they slowly got up on the edge and I ran in and Usmashed. The Usmash hit them while they were in the hitlag of the Fsmash. It was cool.
 
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