What's the difference between Side-B and Down-B? [REVERSION: 8/18/09]

TL;DR!?
What is the difference between side-B and down-B !??

Charge: Side-B can cancel into shield on the ground before it's fully charged. Damage for the roll is based on how long you hold it. Down-B's charge doesn't shield cancel, and its damage is based on the rate/amount of taps you're pressing B.

Air: Side-B has a hop, and its attack box deals 6 damage (charge doesn't matter) and only lasts until you pass the starting height. Down-B's damage lasts as long as you're moving fast enough, and deals more damage if you're holding a direction. It also does multiple hits as long as your opponent is in range to BE hit, and if you hold shield while landing, it will cancel.

Ground!: lulz, they're the same.


There you go, you silly lurkers and people with short attention spans.

And for the rest of you who want more detail, enjoy.
=========================

da K.I.D. said:

just do us all a favor and change the name of the thread to "the difference between side b and down b

Click to expand...

Note:
If anyone has seen this guide any time between 4/1/09 and 8/18/09,
EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS A LIE



It was fun, but I've decided that, like Christmas decorations in New York, this has been up for too long, and so I've brought it back to its regular guide form.

Sasaki Nozomi-chA1 has done her job well.


This guide is legit again! LOL.

____________


First off...

ACRONYMS
This is probably going to be the hardest thing to understand in this whole ordeal. The letters.
SD = Spin Dash (Hop) (Side-B)
SC = Spin Charge (Down-B)
SDR = Spin Dash Roll (the 'rolling attack' part of the move when it reaches the ground)
SDJ = Spin Dash Jump (jump attack that can be done out of a SDR)
ASC = Aerial Spin Charge (air Down-B)

Throughout this thread, I'll try to keep the color coding the same so you can associate them better. Yellow is for side-B, Orange is for down-B. Light blue is for the ground part (it's the same for both moves!), and Dark Blue is the jumping part (same for both moves!)

Phases
You may have noticed that both moves roll, and both Side-B and Down-B can jump after the roll. Well, this is because the roll is actually the same move! Both the Side B and the Down B undergo 'phase changes', where they change 'moves' depending on where they are and what their previous phase was.

NOTE: "Charging" is a phase that is pretty obvious, but will be omitted here. More information will be found in the Move Properties section.



This maps out all the possible 'phases' that the move goes through during and after you release the charge. If you have a double jump, you can jump to cancel any of the aerial phases. Hitting [Up], [Jump], or [Attack] out of the grounded phases (charge, SDR) makes you go into the spindash jump (SDJ).

Note: If a SDR goes to the edge of a platform, it becomes an ASC and assumes its properties. This means that even a Side-B Hop can turn into an ASC as long as you let it roll into the floor first.

Side B: (Aerial or ground)
SD (hop) -> SDR (-> SDJ)
SD (hop) -> jump cancel (while still in air)
SD (charge) -> Spin shot
SD (charge) -> Shield

Down B:
Ground
SDR (-> SDJ)
SDR (-> SDR) (turning around initiates a new SDR with lower power)
SDR (roll off platform) -> ASC
SDR (roll off platform) -> Spin shot

Aerial
ASC (land) -> SDR (->SDJ)
ASC -> jump cancel
ASC (land) -> Shield
ASC (charge) -> Spin shot

Move properties
Yes, believe it or not, there are differences in the moves, and it's not just that side-B hops and down-B doesn't. It becomes more obvious in their aerial versions. Down-B and Side-B both record how much charge the moves have and whether or not you had a double jump when you started charging. It passes this information on to the next part until the move ends - which is... jump cancelling the move while it's in midair, the roll running out of spin, a Spin Dash Jump, or you falling to your death.

STALE MOVE EFFECT: All of these moves share the same Stale Move counter. Each turn-around or phase-change you initiate all pool in for the same move. I guess calling these "phases" really was accurate, since they are all parts of the same move, aside from their starting points. But anyway, even Side-B's hop and ASC diminish each others' effects, as well as the rest of the moves, SDR, SDJ... the whole thing.

TIME LIMIT: After your initial release of the charge, you will remain in ball form until you jump (SDJ, double jump, etc), or until 2 seconds has passed. Keep this in mind when trying to incorporate spindash into your chase and mixup movements. This "timer" begins counting as soon as you release your charge, regardless of if it's side-B hop, ASC, or just a grounded spin charge- your spin will last for 2 seconds after you release.

IN THE AIR: ANY of the aerial phases (charging, side-B's hop, ASC, SDJ) can be 'ended' by double jumping as long as you have a double jump. SDJ is the only phase that you can actually attack out of without having to jump first.

Charge
Note- this covers both side-B and down-B's charge. Features here are common to both side-B and down-B unless otherwise specified.


Spin Dash (SD hop):

Aerial Spin Charge (ASC):


Spin Dash Roll (SDR):

Spin Dash Jump (SDJ):

So if that made any sense, I think the SDR and SDJ are treated as "ending moves" that take in charge / 'remaining jump' data from the Side-B or Down-B. Side B's "true form" can really just be the hop, and Down-B's "true form" is the aerial version; The rolling attack is just tacked on to both moves. A grounded Down-B is already on the floor (duh), so it goes straight into the rolling attack.

Spin Shot spinshot spin-shot
Spin shot is the technique that allows you to do an "instant double jump" at something similar to running speed, allowing Sonic to have *gasp* high air speed!

The basic input for this is usually side-B (charge) > release + [Jump/Attack]

You may have noticed that it only works if you have a double jump remaining, and here's why: Spin shot IS a double jump. It will not work from a grounded Spin Charge because you are not in the air, and it will not work without a double jump because you can't jump-cancel the moves.

...But it is NOT a normal double-jump. The 'jump cancel' from pressing jump or attack during an aerial charge (both side/down-b), SD hop, or ASC is a little different from a normal double-jump, since you go into it pressing either [attack] or [jump]. I'm guessing it's this 'special' double-jump that allows you to Spin Shot.

The 'magic' behind spin shot working is this: You interrupt an phase change to SD hop/ASC with a double jump!

Here are all the possible cases from which you can spin shot:
- Side-B (charge) > SD (Hop) + jump
- Aerial Down-b (charge) > ASC + jump
- SDR (roll off platform) > ASC + jump

You can't do it out of a SDJ because SDJ is the last move - it doesn't flow into any other phases.

Untested: Is it possible cancel a SDR>SDJ with an immediate double jump and get a 'strange effect'?

Air Dash airdash air-dash
"Air Dash" is a situational 'glitch' that works on certain levels only. The basic input for it is:

Side-B charge (upwards) on a 45 degree or steeper slope > release

Again, the 'magic' behind the air dash is, like spin shot, interruption of a phase change. In this case, side-B's charge is supposed to go into the air. However, this phase change is immediately interrupted by the ground. The invincibility frames given by the release then extends for the duration of the move. Performing a turnaround will create a 'new' SDR and turn off the invincibility frames. The reason behind the naming of this technique as 'air dash' is that when Sonic rolls off some edges, he will roll horizontally off the platform, as if he were on an invisible platform.

A few interesting notes about the Air Dash:
Flight behavior
- If the ground ends while completely flat (horizontally) or rising, Sonic will launch horizontally into the air as though he were riding on invisible ground (example: Delphino tower, Pokemon Stadium trees).
- If the ground goes downwards (Brawl Yoshi's Island), you may either: roll off the stage in an invincible ASC, airdash (it tends to happen in custom stages), or stall on the edge while spinning and go flying off the stage in screech stop animation when it runs out of power (Pictochat).

Teleportation
- If he passes a platform (can be above or under him) as he's in the air and makes contact with anything (projectile, person, etc) he will teleport to another height while still rolling.

Turning?
- If you don't have enough momentum to climb the slope and go backwards (ex: single charge), you will still be in the invincible state (like for example, the side platforms in Brinstar or the hills in Pipes).


Phase changes
Airdash = invincible "floating" roll done out of side-B
iSDR = invincible roll
iASC = invincible ASC that results from being slope-reversed and falling downwards off a platform (like in Brinstar).

Air dash phase changes:
SD (charge) > iSDR (uphill/horizontal) > Airdash > (double jump)
SD (charge) > iSDR (downhill) > iASC > (double jump)
SD (charge) > iSDR (uphill, slow) > shield
SD (charge) > iSDR (turn around) > SDR > SDJ

It's very situational, but iSDR can be used to plow through things you normally wouldn't, like for example, a grenade/minefield, among other... fun things.

----------------

Hopefully, it will help explain some things about the moves that you may or may not have been wondering about.

Aerial Spin Charge: This move is too good

ASC ASC ASC ASC ASC
Almost anyone who's seen Sonic mains argue their case on SWF has seen the mention of ASC. What IS it?! An AT? A tactic??

Jump > (hold)Down+ B (B, B, B...).

There it is.

An aerial down-B. Nothing too new.
...Right?
Now for a bit of copypasta

Aerial Spin Charge (ASC):

What I didn't grey out is basically the gist of what made this move 'revolutionize' the Sonic metagame in mid-May.

Charge doesn't affect the ASC - You don't have to hold charge for so long! Better for catching an opponent off guard, or for getting that small burst of aerial speed just when you need it! This was only part of what made this move seem waaay too good.

Damage - With the advent of ASC usage came the 'discovery' that if you hold forward (gain more speed), you can deal a max of 11 damage with ASC! And with it...

Multiple Hits - at LEAST 7 extra damage if your opponent doesn't DI out of the ASC, or if you don't cancel the ASC prematurely! That makes the theoretical 'minimum' per contact (11)+(7)... 18 damage without counting the roll or aerial! On top of that,

Knockback - So came an unorthodox kill move, or a new 'high-aerial' setup. As an added bonus, an unstale ASC has quite a bit of hitstun, making certain combos possible! But the best part of it all..?

Shield Cancel - Sonic can make it look like he's approaching with a very fast attack, then... NOT. There was now a variety of options open to us while using ASC. To attack directly with ASC, to land the ASC into an SDR, to double jump out of it, or to shield cancel the landing!

More traits
Moving Charge - You can float left or right while charging.
Fastfall charge - If you begin the down-B while falling, you'll fastfall. This can be good or bad, but make of it what you will.
Easy Spin Shot (GC controller) - While charging the ASC and holding down, hit C-stick left or right and you'll perform a quick and easy spin shot!


Alright. So before this was 'discovered' or published, the most damaging combo that Sonic had was a SDR [hit] > SDJ [hit] >Aerial [hit]. It's difficult to get the SDJ to hit, let alone follow it up with an aerial. Provided you could get all 3 to hit, using F-air for example, the max damage you could pull was: (10)+(7)+(14). 31 damage. In actual application, most Sonics begin an aerial immediately, to avoid a messup with the SDJ. That 28 damage combo goes down to a 23 damage combo. Not even counting what would happen if not all the hits missed, or if you didn't nail a sweetspot F-air. Ouch.

How does this measure up with the ASC combos?

Combos don exits1
Hopefully, you know what the letters mean by now. I mean, you made it past the first post to find this one!

ASC "Simple Combo"
This is the most practical usage of the move. A full-aerial combo that approaches overhead


Now of course, there's more. It's possible to link ASC's hits into an SDR. And thus, the "perfect combo" was born.

ASC "Perfect Combo"
This is an ASC aimed to land on the floor in front of/on the opponent.
---------------------

Tenki said:

Spoiler

BONUS
For the nonbelievers, here are some pics I took with my cellphone in training mode against a lvl 9 Wario while trying to figure out placement/timing:


Perfect N-air combo
Consecutive hits: 5
Total Damage: 43


Perfect F-air combo
Consecutive hits: 10
Total Damage: 46 (>__<)

I win!

On a trivial note, if you can do the optimal damage for everything, this would be it:
ASC hit 1: 11 damage
ASC hit 2: 10 damage
Full charged SDR : 10 damage
SDJ : 7 damage
F-air sweetspot: 14 damage


52 damage

...but noone's going to be doing that. lol.

Click to expand...

Spin Dash (Side-B) and Move Usage

Miscellaneous info/game usage for Side-B
Spin Dash (side-B)
This was thought to be the better or more useful of the two spindash specials for a while, before the ASC came along. However, don't mistake it, this move is still very useful.

In a nutshell, what makes it nice:
Cancel: You can shield to stop the charge on the ground as long as it's not fully charged.
Momentum change: Stops sideways momentum and moves slightly backwards as it's charging. When you release the charge, it will always have the same "hop" start, regardless of whether or not you were rising, falling, or flying in some direction. The stop before the charge, or the change between a slow flight and a fast SDR can throw people off, too.
B-reversal: This will always face the direction of the charge. If you're in the air or on a ledge, you can use it to turn yourself around, then double jump. You can also make use of the "B-reversal" technique (hitting [back] as soon as you hit [B]) to immediately turn yourself around when running .
Comboability: Hop has lower knockback, making it easier to lead into certain movestrings at higher %'s. The height that it hops can also be useful, as I'll mention later on.
Invincibility: The 5 or so frames upon release can be useful for punishing or breaking past moves.
Recovery: [Side-B hop > Double jump > homing attack/spring]. This is the MOST aerial distance you can possibly get as Sonic. Aside from that, if you get disrupted from the hop, you can do it again. And again. It lets you save your double jump until you get close enough to the stage.

Most of these are fairly common knowledge, and there's not much 'new' to say about the side-B. Well, maybe a bit.

Spin Dash Hop: Approach tricks!
There are some pretty cool things you can do out of side-B as an approach, actually.
Side-B has lower damage and knockback, and so it doesn't launch the opponent as far upwards. On top of that, it jumps you towards your opponent's head. So... there are some... interesting things you can do out of it to say the least.

Footstool Tech Chase Setup!

Spotdodge punisher/Air launcher

There are quite a bit of things you can do from footstool. These moves can also be done out of ASC, but side-B sets them up quite well, for various reasons. The rest of this post will be about using the spindashes smartly.

Move Usage
Overview

Spacing

Feinting
Feinting, not fainting. Basically, it means faking your opponent out. This treads on player ability - your ability to predict your opponent's movements and creating just the right counterattack for them.

If you paid any attention to the phases in the first post, you can handily 'end' each part of the move. You can jump out of most parts assuming you had a double jump when you started the charge, and on some key parts, you can shield to end the move.

This means ALOT for a character with as low priority as Sonic.

I'll highlight basic kind of feinting. It's up to you to improvise on these and find your own.

Double Jump Feint

Ground: Off-rhythm/Delay

Side-B: Charge cancel

ASC cancel


Develop your own tricks, develop your own game, and "learn to player".

So there you have it.

Hopefully, if you managed to read all of this crap and keep up with it this far, you should feel a little more confident in using all your spindashes correctly/efficiently. But please, especially if you just found out about something (prime example: ASC)...

Don't spam moves

=] that will be all.

...yeah. Good luck with that.

Hmm... Definitely gonna mess with that ASC to Shield.

Good stuff.


Watch that optimal damage combo be used to take some HUGE championship. People would freak.

so here is my question:

when the side-b is executed in the air. and begins to fall, then does it have the same properties as Down-b executed in the air? (basicly just not considering the direction, and hop)


but do they have the same cancelation properties? damage? speed?

R4ZE, my understanding is that a down-b instantly becomes an ASC in the air, where as a forward-b requires you to first touch the ground and then leave a platform. The pop at the start of a forward-b in the air or the animnation that follows afterwards (which I believe does not have a hitbox) does not have the same properties.

Did I get that right, Tenki?

i re-read the first post and got my answer for what i was about to ask.


so... what im saying.. does ASC have any significant difference than Side-b prior to touching the ground and leaving a platform?

R4ZE said:

so... what im saying.. does ASC have any significant difference than Side-b prior to touching the ground and leaving a platform?

Click to expand...

Yeah.

Side-B's damage is low and constant. Its knockback is lower than either of ASC's hits.
The most significant difference besides the hop trajectory is this:
Side-B's hop loses its attack hitbox after you go lower than your starting height.

Also, you can't shield cancel the side-B's landing. But that's as you land/after you touch the ground, so I'm not sure if that's part of the answer you want.

ASC's hitbox is triggered by speed, has a continuing hitbox as long as it's moving forward, so you can go as low as you want, then hold forward to speed up again, essentially reactivating the attack box. That property is also why you can hit someone twice with it. It does more damage and knockback on the first hit (up to 11% damage) and lesser knockback on the following hits (still a little stronger than side-B's knockback). Then there's the whole... shield cancel bit

Horizontal/travel speed is the same as spin dash jump. They all travel through the air faster than your normal jumps.

that's a lot of information. I'm glad you've written it. Could you maybe just clarify a little stuff? Kind of like the straight forward question of "which is better to use"?

Yep, ASC is just too good. It makes Sonic even more of a grab wh0re by being able to grab right after an attack. This is impressive coupled with his grab game. The fact that it can be cancelled by a shield means it it technically an aerial with no lag upon landing with respect to all other aerials, aerial B moves/Grounded up b and Upsmash.

As far as I know, ASC has multiple hits. It will hit more than twice on a low damage ratio (against a sandbag)

Megacombo will not work on larger characters as well as it does on small ones. This is a + because Sonic has trouble against smaller characters. You have to be close to the center to get the 2 hits. There is a psuedo combo in bigger characters though, I'll go into it after a bit more testing

Anyone ASC into a shield grab yet? They think you're going to SDJ combo and you just stop and grab.

Lulz.

I KO'ed a Marth today with an ASC. It was pretty epic. He kept dodging my killing moves so I popped him into the air charged an ASC and wham. Dead at 150% ^_^

ASC > shield grab is awesome :3
ASC > Back roll is awesome too

EmuKiller said:

that's a lot of information. I'm glad you've written it. Could you maybe just clarify a little stuff? Kind of like the straight forward question of "which is better to use"?

Click to expand...

XD they have different uses. I put that info down so people could find that answer on their own.

Side-B is definitely leaning toward defensive:
- Invincibility/priority frames
- The actual charge is shield cancellable
- Charge moves backwards (lol ?)
- B-reversal ability
- Low damage, limited time period for hitbox
- Very nice for recovery (hop, spinshot)


its only notable offensive uses are for starting combos at high %, starting spinshots for approaches, and stopping momentum to feint/shield grab.

Down-B is leaning toward offensive:
- ASC damage, combos, etc...
- Shield cancelled ASC makes for more flexibility when attacking
- Grounded down-B goes straight into the roll, so it 'starts' faster and reaches opponents faster than side-B
- Poor recovery since it doesn't go upwards at all (unless you do it as you're going to the top of a jump)

FrostByte said:

As far as I know, ASC has multiple hits. It will hit more than twice on a low damage ratio (against a sandbag)

Click to expand...

Right. In general usage, it's got 2 hits guaranteed hits.

However, I did manage to pull a 3-hit ASC on a CPU Bowser. I have it in a replay (lol I'm stocking up replays for when my Wii can go online again xD)

[edit]LOL ASC PWNS BOSSES XD XD XD 5 HIT COMBO JAAMP

In the perfect combo. Are you talking about hitting the ground than Spin Dashing? Or or hitting them twice, turning and jump cancelling? Or just managing to jump cancel at the perfect time to get that third hit than doing whatever arial attack?

yea, i just found out about ASC to sheild, to grab yesterday. its so amazing!

have you all known about that technique for a long time now? i feel like i just saw the light lol.


has anyone noticed an increased knockback on ASC? i almost Up killed a lucario yesterday around 150% with just the hit from ASC.



Tenki, i have to give you major props for this thread, itsrape. I think this can help everyone improve their sonic game a lot.

I didn't. I saw Tenki say that you can Shield cancel the ASC and I thought. ****. I'm gonna shield grab this mutha. Then I did. It was cool.

MdrnDayMercutio said:

In the perfect combo. Are you talking about hitting the ground than Spin Dashing? Or or hitting them twice, turning and jump cancelling? Or just managing to jump cancel at the perfect time to get that third hit than doing whatever arial attack?

Click to expand...

Ah... remember the normal "spin dash combo"? Roll > Spin dash jump > Aerial attack? Well, just tack on the ASC double hit before that x.x;

ASC hits twice (air), (then opponent probably DI's downwards/backwards), you lands and roll attack hits once you're on the floor, you jump right away, hitting them with that, and finally finish off with an aerial attack.

R4ZE said:

yea, i just found out about ASC to sheild, to grab yesterday. its so amazing!


have you all known about that technique for a long time now? i feel like i just saw the light lol.


has anyone noticed an increased knockback on ASC? i almost Up killed a lucario yesterday around 150% with just the hit from ASC.

Click to expand...

- that move is too good.
- nope ._.; I noticed it by accident this past week while being bored offline, then I started trying to spam shield while doing side-B and down-B and found out you can cancel the ASC. Previously, I haven't seen anyone say anything about the shield cancel property. Whether I really 'discovered' it or not, I'm the first one to bring it out into the open. ASC>Grab is awesome, along with ASC>Back roll. I THINK WE SHOULD CALL IT THE GORNEL!
- yes. I think I put it down there ._.; Someone asked me to put down kill %'s on a Mario (there's a thread where a guy's collecting every character's Mario-kill-data) and it kills a standing Mario at 179%. Of course, you can kill people easier if they're higher up, in midair. I'll try to remember to put it down in the Finishing Moves thread later.


On a random note... my brother plays alot of Olimar (he's not very good in the dodging/shield department, spamming down B for SAF and taking unneccessary damage lol). ASC > Olimar XD you come in at an angle he can't smash, if he does smash, you have an attack aura, it launches him upwards. Making him turn and miss his Fsmashes and grabs with ASC>Back roll... and spawn-spring>u-throw is too good XD

How many times should you charge the ASC to do the most damage and knockback?

ASC itself doesn't need any charge. It works differently from everything else. All you have to do is hold forward for more damage, hold back to lessen it (if you move too slow, you won't deal any damage at all.

for the ground roll's damage, it's 5 taps.

i was pretty sure it's in there, but it's probably not clear. hope that helps

Wait. If you use ASC and hit the ground does it determine damage based on button presses or tilting the control stick?

I can just test it later but an answer would be nice.

All groiunded spins' power are determined by number of button presses. The aerial ones are set.

CaliburChamp, it's best to charge it twice for convenience. Pressing it once may make the premature charge and nothing will happen if you release too quickly. If you press B twice, you're guaranteed a hitbox.

I'm having a bit of trouble landing both hits in a match at higher %, so that takes away some of it's usefulness as a quick damage attack. It has relatively low priority and a bit of lag on startup. It's a really sneaky spring - uair setup at high-mid % though.

It kills from about 160 to 180 on opponents who DI towards you.

Edit: And if you release it high enough, you get a free footstool. Which is also a free spring - dair, if that even counts as a combo.

Stale move effect sucks.

I tested the moves for stale move effect on separate parts (Down-B's ASC, SDR, SDJ, then SD hop)

ALL of them are diminished by each other. Spamming a few SDR's from a down-B, then doing SDJ out of side-B's charge, the SDJ did 4 damage.

I did 12 damage with a 2-hit ASC after spamming a bunch of SDR's on the floor.

3 damage with my first SD hop.

I guess it kinda makes sense, considering that each of these moves all flow into each other.

Side-B and Down-B just starts from a different points of the move, I guess. It's too bad :[ I was hoping they wouldn't be affected by each other and only the 'common' moves (SDR, SDJ) would share the stale move counter. Adding this to post now...

That's dissappointing.

its hard for me to understand it just from you explaining it, so hurry up and get your wii back online so that you can show me

Hope... and an update! Pictures!

It is, but on the bright side, like Terios brought up in another thread, it's not like you only use side/down B. You follow up with aerials, and that helps replenish the stale move effect. Jabs and pummels probably help too, if you can get them.

Also, a little more minor updates, this time on the ASC post-
now with pictures:
- diagram on placement to pull a perfect ASC combo.
- training mode stats: Perfect N-air combo
- training mode stats: Perfect F-air combo

Note: I made the diagram yesterday while trying to do n-air combo. They were done while charging a SH ASC while in front of a standing Wario. I went ahead and used the placement described in the diagram to try and hit a walking Wario and pulled off a perfect N-air combo within 3 tries. Tried it more and got the perfect f-air combo to work from a ranged full hop! It did 48 damage (cause I charged it) and knocked Wario off the level! I reflexed a spring jump and the spring hit him for 4 damage and erased it.

So I worked hard to redo the combo and got a 46 -__-'

guys seriously. I have been using that ASC into sheild thing a lot recently.

it's ground breaking for sonic's approach game. Its extremely hard to counter, and you can execute it at different heights. So basicly, you can roll into their head, or their feet, and then instantly grab them.


one of the only counter's i have seen is a grab, but depending on how you execute the move itself, a grab sometimes wont counter it.



So.. all im saying is mess around with that move, it really has been helping my sonic out a lot.

If you SDR off of the stage does it assume the properties of a ASC?

Tenki said:

ACRONYMS
This is probably going to be the hardest thing to understand in this whole ordeal. The letters.
SD = Spin Dash (Hop) (Side-B)
SC = Spin Dash (Charge) (Down-B)
SDR = Spin Dash Roll (this is common to both SD and SC)
SDJ = Spin Dash Jump (jump attack that can be done out of a SDR)
ASC = Aerial Spin Charge (air Down-B)
Note: If a SDR goes to the edge of a platform, it becomes an ASC and assumes its properties. Hence a SD can become an ASC, but only after touching the ground.

...

SDR: (takes in: charge data, 'remaining jumps')
- 7-10 damage, 7 on turn-around.
- During the turn-around, does not deal damage until the blue aura comes back.
- The turn-around is treated like a second SDR that has weaker charge (minimum 7% dmg)
- Charge data is taken in from the side B/ down B to determine speed and damage of the roll
- Combos naturally into a SDJ if attack or jump is pressed.
- Passes 'remaining jumps' data to SDJ.
- If you roll off a platform, passes 'remaining jumps' data to the ASC that follows.

Click to expand...

in short, since the stage is a platform, yes.

I noticed I didn't put it in the phase changes, so I'll add it in now. The note at the end of acronyms is kinda vague too, so I'll reword that.

------------

and so... I ended up updating more.
Charge as a 'phase' is now added in the Move Properties. I felt it was important to recognize charging as a separate move, since that's what really "creates" the charge data. Check it out for more info.

Spin shot now explained. At least, the mechanics of it. Why it happens (speed-wise), I don't know, but you might find something you didn't know before.

This is all teh auwsoom.

Can't wait to try it out!

Thnx Tenki XD

Tenki said:

In case anyone's wondering, this is how it would look if you could pull off the perfect combo:

The colored boxes are where the opponent would be.
Blue circles are where Sonic would be.
1- ASC's first hit. Opponent is knocked upwards slightly, now in A.
2- ASC's 2nd hit. Opponent is knocked upwards and sideways a little bit, and is between A and B.
3- SDR's hit. Opponent is knocked to B.
4- SDJ's hit. Opponent is knocked to C.
5- Aerial attack.

Notice how close 2 and 3 are. If you're too far away from the floor by the 2nd hit, your opponent will be in hitstun, but be knocked upwards too far for the roll to hit. At this point, all you can do is try to catch it with the SDJ, which works sometimes.

In case I drew it wrong, here's a better explanation for placement: if you do it right, the first 3 hits will occur all with your opponent in front of you, then you follow up with SDJ and aerial. If you can pull off the SDR landing correctly (so it hits your opponent and keeps them in front of you) and can keep the rhythm of the hits, SDJ should hit and flow into your aerial.

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Quick, someone go master this move, NOW.

actually, I just remembered what I wanted to say:
I'm requesting that someone please learn how to do this, and record a video, too.

It kind of sucks that these all diminish each other (like Sonic wasn't weak enough already), but that should help for comboing... Plus, it's pretty rare that you land a lot of spin dashes on skilled opponents anyways.

So, just an idea atm.

I mentioned earlier how ASC > Bosses because of the multiple hit deal (F-F-F-FIIIVE HIT COMBOOO!)

does the ASC multiple-hit shields more than 2 times, or does Sonic pass through it?

I'm thinking it should, since the only reason ASC only hits twice normally is because the 2nd hit knocks them out of range and Sonic is moving downwards, and their hitbox is usually not too big to get a 3rd hit in. It is possible on Bowser, and I'm guessing DK and D3, too, though.

If this isn't tested by tomorrow, I'll edit this post and put the answer down myself xD

Yeah, I hit a shield 4 times with the ASC + SDJ yesterday and brought it down to about uncharged Marth shieldbreaker size. Then topped it off with a stab'd homing attack.

hey that theoretic combo could be increased to 6 hits if you did up-p as the ariel cancel, and then down air bakc into them for the final 6th hit right?

if it is really possible to pull that off, it would do a ton of damage.

I can just imagine the expression of an opponent if someone actually pulled off a full ASC combo in a competitive match.

"52 DAMAGE IN 3 SECONDS? WTHECKBBQ!"

And then if it's increased to 6 hits... oh lord

If someone could like master this move, it would be absolutely amazing.

Instalulz

R4ZE said:

hey that theoretic combo could be increased to 6 hits if you did up-p as the ariel cancel, and then down air bakc into them for the final 6th hit right?

if it is really possible to pull that off, it would do a ton of damage.

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Are you talking about FSJ up-B?

so it would be...

ASC [x2] > SDR > SDJ > FSJ up-B > d-air..?

the spring does 4 damage and d-air does 7-8 or something. Basically sounds like the same thing as an n-air combo lol.

I'm sure that'd leave a 'wtf' expression though =/

the spring does more than 4 damage.. atleast i think....


i think we are talking about the same thing:
1. ASC 1st hit
2.ASC 2nd hit
3. Grounded spin charge hit
4. J jumping spin charge hit
5. Up-p Spring
6. Down air

are you tlaking about somthing else?

Is it required to FSJ the opponent to nail them with the spring after SCJ? i beleive i have hit people with it without a FSJ, tho... it wouldnt hurt to FSJ either.

Oh, I was thinking of the move that was listed as an DI-escapable combo where you do a FSJ > d-air at the end of a spindash combo. People usually try to do FSJ - spring because the FSJ makes sure the spring hits.

It's basically the same thing. But in my experience, spring does 4%. D-air (at least, sweetspot) does 8%. 12% total.

F-air does 14 on a good hit, plus it hits 6 times- you can see the '10 consecutive hits' counter in my pictures lol xD

Spring>d-air as a finisher to it does chain 6 moves though, I'll give it that. IMO it's harder to land correctly, and I'd rather not have to add more difficulty to a move like this lol.

I'm feeling like this is really easy to counter with an aerial. Haven't been able to use it effectively against a human player yet.

TwinkleToes said:

I'm feeling like this is really easy to counter with an aerial. Haven't been able to use it effectively against a human player yet.

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Same here. I find it kinda difficult to do effectively. Either that, or I have been playing too much Mario Kart and Sonic Rush Adventure.