V. Snake - [Last Updated] 7/1 12:01 PM PCT - Accidently deleted a lot of my guide!!!

--[In Progress]--

So it is the general consensus that Snake is Marth's toughest match-up. He has a strong projectile game, devastating tilts, is one of the heaviest characters in the game, and has hitboxes that go way past the animation. Although Snake is formidable he is not unstoppable, and can be defeated.

This is a thread reliant on feed back. I hope that this thread will be composed of the knowledge of many users, as I unfortunately, do not know everything. So feel free to comment and post ideas on any of the sections.

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Recent Updates

(Newest to Oldest)

- Controller Port Section

- More Kill Percents

- More Physics, but they don't have numbers....

- Marth's dash attack and hyphen smash

- Mortar Slide

- Dash attack

- Counterpick stage - Rainbow Cruise

- Marth's Uair and Dair

- Kill Percent Section

- Marth's Nair and Fair

- Snake's Uair and Dair

- Physics Comparison

- More Counterpick stages.

- More 2v2 and 1v1 videos

- 2v2 video section

- 1v1 Tourney Videos - King v Ajax (R2)

- Low Recovery: Cypher Gimping addition

- Snake's Fair

- Snake's Nair

- Snake's Dtilt

- Snake's Grenades

- Snake Movement -- Aerial: Nair addition and Uair

- Recent Updates Section >_>

- Marth's Usmash

- Marth's Fsmash

- Marth Summary Addition

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Basic Summary:

-From Marth's perspective:

Emblem Lord said:

-Snake is a monster. His ground game rivals yours in speed and his range is virtually equal to yours on his tilts. His jab combo is also fast and strong.Also his f-tilt is a great damage racker and his u-tilt kills around 100%. As if you are playing a Marth ditto stay on the ground. Only use SH aerials when you are already close, since if you approach with them, you will eat an f-tilt to the face. His u-tilt is deadly so you MUST be aware of it's range. It's about the same range as Marth's jab. Snake has a good throw game thanks to his d-throw. Sets up a free tech chase so be sure to switch up what you do after it. Some can roll right or left, wake up in place, or wake up attack. If you start waiting to do an action, Snake can stick a C4 on you so be careful. Snake has an awesome control game thanks to all his explosives. Grenades can thrown at you or cooked then tossed at you so they explode quickly. C4's can be be planted and used as surprise moves. Mines are simply pure space control. Well grenades can be tossed back at Snake and shielded. Mines can be hit or used against Snake. C4's can be difficult to actually hit with as long as you pay attention. You can DI his jab combo too. Just DI back and the third hit should miss most of the time, then you can punish. You will want to rely more on d-tilts on this match-up, since they outrange all of Snake's moves except the second hit of his f-tilt. Try to keep Snake in the air since he is juggle bait. He doesn't have alot of options when being juggled. For edgeguarding you can just grab the cypher when he is close and if you don't do anything, he will drop to his death when he gets out. If he is a bit farther out you can just spike him. If he is even farther just Nair him for the kill. Good Snake's will try to just recover high which means he sets himself for a juggle situation. No matter how Snake recovers Marth can take advantage of the situation. The Snake dash is also tough to deal with. To counter it you can try using SH fairs, using your counter, or shielding it and then chasing him down to punish. The key to beating Snake is to pay attention to his movements and what he does at all times. Keep him in the air to make things easier for yourself. Don't worry too much about his explosives. It's his close range game that's the real threat. He can also bring out grenades and shield so that if you attack you eat the explosion, or he can bring out a grenade and roll so he avoids you while you get hit. You can just grab or use shieldbreaker or even just space well with your attacks when he abuses shielding to drop grenades. If he rolls alot after bringing out a grenade just space your fairs then punish when he rolls or wait for the roll then punish. Also Snake has his Nikita missile for long range play and edgeguarding. Just hit it to deflect it with an attack, shield it, or roll past it.

Click to expand...

Emblem Lord said:

Snake and Marth have pretty equal range actually. Marth's d-tilt outranges all of Snakes moves except the second hit of the f-tilt. Other then that all their ground moves are virtually equal in range. Dancing Blade is safe if you know what you are doing. If they shield the first hit then you need to stop doing the attack. If they tend to roll after they block then Marth can roll away to avoid retaliation.

If people are using attacks with SA on them to stuff your DB then you are getting far too predictable and just spamming it all day. Mix-up your approach and don't get predictable.

I said in my original analysis that fairs are not wise vs Snake so that point you made about them is invalid as I already established that Marth has to play a ground game vs Snake. If Snake abuses Snake dashing Marth can use any attack to knock Snake out of the U-smash part of it or he can counter. But the Snake dash itself doesn't even do much damage. It's just annoying.

The main thing that makes it 6/4 is Snake's weight and his killing power. But Marth does a whole lot better vs Snake then the majority of the cast. Snake is juggle bait vs Marth and it's easy to spike him or harrass his recovery when he is close to the stage. Vs Sanke you can't just run up to him and spam Dancing Blade. You will get merked. You have to play patient and rely more on d-tilt and know when to punish.

Click to expand...

- From Snake's perspective:

20characters1 said:

Marth

Marth is too hard to approach from the air with his up smash and his side smash, So in the air with Snake it's hard to land safely on the ground so try to air dodge his sword attacks when landing. when trying to fly back to the stage Marth can jump off the stage and hit Snake with his sword and Snake has to attempt to fly back again which results in another swipe, try to air dodge this as well but it seems you can't airdodge immediately when just using your up b. If your an offensive Snake you can try to bellyflop with your backsmash onto Marth when falling on the stage or trying to recover but it is dangerous if you dont make contact first you will be back in the air with more damage and have to try to get on the ground again.

Marth on the ground is much easier to handle besides his very annoying counter, when Marth is running Shield dropping grenades is very effective to protect from a side smash or dash attack since the nades will explode when struck and you will be fine, alternately you can also try snakes triple A combo to cancel Marths initial strike and then hit him with the remainder of your combo. Dash attacking across the stage also works quite well if you don't make it your main attack. Dash attacking also bumps Marth into the air which allows for a quick mortar attack but Marth can still counter explosives so try to hit Marth when he is going up and not coming down

When Marth is falling try to draw out his counter early by jumping up and not attack fall down then jump and upsmash, Also launching mortars are an effective method when Marth is in the air and keeping him there or when he is trying to get back on the stage

When Marth is trying to recover mines aren't the greatest method to edgeguard by themselves It's best to place the c4 a little further from the edge Marth will most often try and grab on the the edge instead of trying to attack his way on the stage, I find the nikita works fine for launching him further but dont forget to cancel if your nikita misses. When Marth does get on the stage try to throw him off and repeat with the nikita method with your c4 as your support.

Click to expand...

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Physics Comparison

I have decided to start placing the physical characteristics of Snake and Marth. I will place the "winner" of each category first and then represent how well they perform in that category with three numbers from 0 to 100. The numbers in parenthesis represent how they stand with the rest cast (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.); the numbers in the sets represent how they compare within the range of numbers; and the numbers in brackets represent the average between the two.

- Weight

Heavier: Snake (Tied for 3rd heaviest with Bowser) (94) - {98} -- [96]
Lighter: Marth (15th lightest) (38) - {44} -- [41]
M2K's Weight Lists -- http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162374 --

- Vertical Survivability
Snake: Tied for 2nd with DK (96) - {91} -- [94]
Marth: 21st (46) - {44} -- [45]
Thinkaman's Vertical Survivability -- http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156908 --

- Horizontal Aerial Speed (DI)
Marth: 12th fastest (71) - {59} -- [65]
Snake: 20th fastest(51) - {40} -- [46]
3GOD's Horizontal Aerial Movement Speed List -- http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952 --

--[The Physics below do not have exact figures]--

Running Speed
1. Marth
2. Snake

Ground Jump
1. Marth
2. Snake

Second Jump
1. Marth
2. Snake

Crawl
1. Snake - yes
2. Marth - no

Duck Height
1. Snake
2. Marth

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Controller Port Prefrence

--[If you are unsure what I am talking about in this section please go here "Controller Port Guide" by 1HKO http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169109]--

Usually it does not matter a great deal what controller number you use, in this match however, it can easily decide the outcome of the match. In this match you most definitely want to be player two, as you will need the Faux Super Armour Frames. The main reason you will need FSA is Snake's mortar. Coming down it can serious problem, but being player two can severely lessen its impact on the game. Two things you will be able to do if you are player two is grab Snake with little to no retribution from his mortar, and Snake cannot grab you unless he wishes to get hit by the mortar. The same thing applies to grenades.

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Movement

Snake

-Walk: If Snake is walking towards you, it most likely means he is doing to try to hit you with one of his tilts -- more specifically his ftilt.

-Run: If Snake is running at you, he is probably going to either dash attack or mortar slide. In which case you should either counter, perfect shield, or dolphin slash.

-Aerial: Snakes usually will not try to approach from the air, but if they do there are three moves you need to look out for:
--> Nair: This is a multi-hit attack with a strong finish, dolphin slash is an effective option against it. Most of the time avoiding it and punishing is a better option.
--> Bair: If he is coming at you backwards, this will most likely be his move of choice, try to ftilt against it, or roll.
--> Uair: Snakes will often use this to try to juggle you; fortunately it is easy to avoid. You can use dair, airdodge, counter, or mindgames with DI.

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Marth

-Walk: Use this when you want to work on spacing and read his playstyle.

-Run: This is a good move to rush in with Dancing Blade or Shield-Breaker.

-Foxtrot: Great for mindgames and for changing the flow of the match, use it to fake Snake out, or roll behind him.

-Aerial: Fair still works but it is very important to space properly. Also don't forget to use the shield breaker. You can approach and then pull back to bait a reaction. Also a falling Dancing Blade can catch many Snakes off guard.

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Pressure

One of the key to Snake's arsenal is his set ups, often times you will have to avoid five obstacles (a C4, a Mine, two grenades, and a Nikita; the usmash has a projectile, but it is usually used on the offensive) to reach him, and if you make a mistake you will receive an ftilt to the face. This is why it is very important to keep pressure on Snake, do not give him time to set you up or think. (There are some aggressive Snake's, but an overwhelming majority of advanced Snake's will attempt to camp you.) This does not mean attack restlessly, but just do not allow him to plant traps. If you can do this, then you have won at least half of the battle.

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Snake: Move by move analysis:

-Standard A:

AAA: If you get caught in this, Dolphin Slash can get you out, also you can DI out of it (up and back?).

-Tilts

Ftilt: This is one of Snake's most fearsome moves, it does about 21%, has great knockback, and flat out obscene range.

--[Warning, Pointless Complaining Approaching!] One example of this range, was this time I was playing on Wi-Fi. A Snake uses his ftilt and I am a good deal away, he uses the first hit to get close and then tries to hit me with the second. The animation of the second one doesn't even come close to hitting me, but I counter on reaction and I was in range of the hitbox. So the counter comes out (which has amazing range) and it doesn't even hit him. This happened to me twice. So I am calling ftilt Snake's 7th projectile. [Rant over]--

Unfortunately, complaining doesn't make the move less effective. Some moves that are effective against ftilt are jab, ftilt, dtilt, counter, and perhaps dolphin slash. Jab, ftilt, and dtilt are effective for the same reason, they can cause the attacks to clash (or to attack first), and then it is possible to use Marth's speed advantage to follow up with a variety of moves. Counter is very effective against this move, contrary to what the anecdote above may lead you to believe. Dolphin Slash's invincibility frames can be used to interrupt the attack.

Utilt: Luckily, due to Marth's range, this move isn't a huge issue, as long as you space properly. There are somethings to watch out for however; if you are at low percents Snakes will often times try to juggle you (especially after a respawn and they're in the lead), but if you know this is coming, you can avoid it pretty easily. Also if you are on a short platform, like Battlefield, and he is under you, get off of there quickly. Sometimes Snakes will spam this move if you k.o. him, in which case approach carefully with ftilt, do not try to roll behind him.

Dtilt: You will rarely see this move, as ftilt is better in almost every situation. But if for whatever reason you do meet a dtilt spamming Snake, then Dancing Blade and ftilt work well against it.

-Smashes:

Fsmash: Snake's strongest attack, if you screw up while he uses this move, it could easily mean death, luckily it is quite slow. You can counter it, but it very risky. It has awkward timing and if he does not use the c-stick, then he can let the window pass and hit you with an even harder attack. If you are in range when he is using it, then roll behind and use the Dancing Blade. If you are not in range do not try to roll behind him, but wait for him to finish the attack and rush in with Dancing Blade.

Usmash: -- [In this section I will cover the standing version of this and in the dash attack section I will cover the mortar slide] --
This is his most used smash attack, luckily in its standing form it is not extremely hard to cope with . Some effective moves against it are counter and Dolphin Slash, but if you have good spacing, you can avoid it entirely, and then you can attack with a variety of moves. If you are in the air and he uses it, you can use dair to stop the mortar, or if you are close enough and falling down, you can counter.

Dsmash: This is most likely Snake's least useful smash. if he plants a mine, you can roll over it, or if you want to be fancy, you can counter it.

-Dashing Attacks

Dash Attack: This move can be very annoying, but fortunately it does not do much damage. If you get hit by it, it is important to jump up, as many Snakes will try to hit you with it again. Dolphin Slashing can be a good brick wall for this move; counter can work well too.

Mortar Slide: This move is even more annoying than the dash attack, but if the Marth knows what he or she is doing, it can be severely diminish the effectiveness of this move. It come out slower than the dash attack, so it is much easily countered, and the majority of the damage comes from the projectile, which can often times be negated with an aerial (almost always dair).

-Aerials

Nair: The frequency of this move will depend on Snake. Although it is not nearly as fearsome as the ftilt, if the Snake you are playing is fond of it, it should not be underestimated. This move has multiple hits and a strong finisher. If you are approaching this move from the air, then the dolphin slash is effective. Another effective option is waiting for the move to finish and then punishing.

Fair: Snake's will often pull this move out when they are recovering or while you are recovering. If you see the opening animation, just use an appropriate aerial (usually your fair). One of the more interesting aspects of this move is that it can "stage spike" you in a sense at high percents. What can happen is you are on the ground and Snake is in the air, as he comes down he uses fair and bounces you off the stage and you can hit the top of the screen. This situation is rare and easy to avoid as long as you are aware of it.

Uair: Sometimes Snakes will attempt to juggle you with their uair. This move can pack quite a punch, but if you are alert, it is easily avoided. Some methods to get around this move are countering, (dair?), airdodge, or you can use your superior DI.

Dair: Occasionally Snakes will pull out this move if they are above you. But since your utilt out ranges it, it usually isn't an issue. Just be careful when Snakes are directly above you, and you should be fine.

-Specials

Grenades: This is Snake's classic set up move, it allows Snake to use your own instincts against you, but only if you let him.

--The reason grenades can be frightening
- Hard to predict when they will go off
- Packs a significant punch
- Can be set off by attacks

Classic Set Ups

- You and are within attacking range. Snake shield drops grenade, and then rolls. After rolling holds the A button.
-- What often happens: Marth rolls to avoid grenades, but in his haste rolls into the A combo -- What you want to do: Either roll away or jump and come at him from the air.

- You and Snake are on the opposite sides of the stage and he has laid a mine, C4, (launches a Nikita), and then threw two grenades.
-- What often happens: In order to avoid the grenades the Marth rushes in straight to Snake, and in his rush gets punished by an ftilt.
-- What you want to do: Avoid grenades and start approaching, but don't rush in recklessly.

Nikita: Perfect Shield it or roll; if you try to counter it Snake can adjust the timing of it with a variety of methods, also it will give you diminishing returns on your counter.

Cypher: Doesn't do much.

C4: Just try to avoid them, it's pretty much the only thing you can do.

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Marth: Move by move analysis

-Jab

A: This move can be pretty effective against Snake, you can use it to stop his offensive, and then follow up with almost any move of your choice. Drago did this a lot in the Reno tournament.

-Tilts

Ftilt: Because this is usually used as a defensive it is not as useful as it normally is. It can still be useful for spacing and punishing.

Dtilt: This move is still very useful, great for punishing, spacing, and just a great poking move in general. Just use it like you normally would, just look out for grenade dropping and his ftilt.

Utilt: Since Snake is a very heavy character so this move is great for chaining at low percent, which sets up for juggling.

-Smashes

Fsmash: Whatever you do, don't spam this move. You will need this move to kill Snake; saving it can make the difference between a ~125% kill and a ~175% kill.

Usmash: Due to Snake's heavy weight, this move is not great for killing. In its sliding form, it can be used as a surprise attack, but because of the move's short range and Snake's projectiles and range, this move cannot be relied on. It can be used to punish Snake if he is on a platform above you, but utilt is a better tool for this. However, one advantage to this move is the cyclone effect allows juggle set ups.

Dsmash: A great move to punish rolls, and since it hits up it can lead to juggling.

-Dashing Attacks

Dash Attack: This move won't be incredibly effective, as most Snakes will shield and then ftilt, it can be a surprising punisher that sets up juggles though.

Hyphen Smash: This applies in the same way that the dash attack does. However, one thing it is useful for is when Snake is falling a considerable distance away and you wish to continue your juggle.

-Throws

Fthrow: This is probably your best throw against Snake, the best thing about this throw is it can chain into another fthrow at low percents, and chain into attacks at higher percents (dash, fair, dancing blade, etc.). Snake can avoid this by DI'ing towards you, but if he does this you can fsmash him in the face. I also found that a level 9 CPU set to run was unable to escape it.

Uthrow: This is a fantastic moves to set up for juggles, it would probably be better to use this throw at higher percents, because Snake would be able to escape the fthrow chain.



-Aerials

Nair: This move can be a very effective way to apply pressure towards Snake, it will chip at his shield, is auto cancelable, and can do up to 15%.

Fair: You can still use this move, but you must be very careful. If you attack him on the ground he can ftilt you. However, this move is fantastic for chase him around the stage while he is in the air. If you did do this tactic, it is sometimes more advantageous to hit him with the center of the blade in order to keep him in striking distance. This move can also be a very effective edgeguard.

Uair: The major purpose of this move in this match-up will be for juggling. If Snake recovers high you can use this move to get in some extra damage. Unfortunately due to Snake's incredible vertical survivability, it is unlikely you will be able to get a kill using this move, unless you are at the very top of the screen.

Dair: This move is going to primarily used for edgeguarding, which you can read in the gimping section of this guide.

-Specials

Shield-Breaker: This move is even better against Snakes than many others because Snakes love to shield. It is important to mix up the timing of it to prevent it being perfect shielded. Just use it like you normally would, but use it more if the Snake is shield happy.
[For more about Shield-Breaker go here: "The untapped potential of Shieldbreaker" by Emblem Lord -- http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166145]

Dancing Blade: This move is fantastic, just utterly brilliant, and against Snake, it is one of your best. Spam this move. Its up finish can lead to juggling and its down move is great for damage racking. Also, the down finish near the edge can force a low recovery. If you want to play it safe the side finish works well.

-- Dancing Blade vs. Shield --
If Snake shields the dancing blade, then it is important to not follow through all the way. This is because he can whack you with ftilt once you finish the combo. The other moves have less ending lag, and it will take him by surprise. Then once he gets used to that and start trying to ftilt you earlier, you can instead finish the combo. Also if his shield is small enough you can poke through it. Another useful combo if Snake shields is, stopping the attack, and then as he tries to attack you either do a dolphin slash or start the combo again.

Counter: I admit to loving the counter, but this move ***** Snake. It can shut down many of his moves. It works especially well against Ftilt and Usmash.

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Gimping and Recovery

Gimping

- High Recovery

Cypher: There isn't much you can do, if you can get out there fast enough you can hit him with a bair, fair, or uair. When he is coming down you can juggle him, just watch out for the C4. You then can **** him with uair, or if he is at a high enough percentage possible KO him with Dolphin Slash (or Uair).

C4: Snake will almost never use C4 on as high recovery as it would probably kill him.

- Low Recovery:

Cypher: You have many options here, it is extremely easy to spike Snake so if the situation allows it go for it. However if the situation does not allow it, fair is a great tool. So is nair, but you must hit him while he is ascending at a slower pace or his modified Super Armor will only allow you to get the first hit in. Bair works as well, it just takes more time to set up. Another interesting feature is that if you grab Snake out of his cypher and not do anything, he will be unable to use it until (or if) he hits the ground. If he is to far to grab, you can fsmash him out of it.

C4: Sometimes it is better to leave Snake alone if he does this, but if your skill level is high enough there are some thing you can do. You can go right next to him and allow the C4 to stick onto you, and then air dodge. Snake can reverse C4 to counter this though. You can go above him and try to spike him before the C4 goes off. Countering his C4 can be very effective. Also you can dolphin slash and sweet spot the edge to stage spike him.

Fair: Sometimes Snake will try to use this as they're recovering; just use fair, nair, uair, or counter to shut it down. It really doesn't cause much of a problem.

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Recovering

C4/Mine: Snakes will often place C4sor mines near or on the edge. If you are recovering high, you can easily DI away from it, if you are recovering low however, the only option you have is to sweet spot the edge.

Fair: If Snake tries to spike you just fair, uair, nair, counter, or dolphin slash him. Snake's fair is a move that if it catches you off guard it can easily mean your death, but if you are aware of it, you can easily punish it.

Bair: This is one of Snake more fearsome aerials, as his whole body turns into a giant hitbox. The best counter for this move is to plow right through him with Dolphin Slash. If you are recovering high enough, counter works too.

Nikita: This is one of Snake's more annoying edgegaurding tools. If you are recovering high, than you can use your double jump over it and airdodge works well too. One of the best tools against the Nikita is using fast falling and tricky DI to fake Snake out.

Usmash: Often times Snake's will Usmash spam on the edge. If you are recovering very high, you can cancel the mortar with an aerial. If you are recovering close to the edge, you can counter the base, and if you are recovering low, you should try to sweet spot the edge. If continues to spam usmash, roll behind him and fsmash towards him.



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Counter Pick Stages:

its cool how you put up both perespectives

^ Thank you, I just thought it would be helpful if we have a rough idea of what Snakes are thinking.

Good job so far. Keep working on this. For low recoveries you can anticipate the C4 explosion for spike.

Some sample match videos would be good too.

I like the idea I actually dreamed up starting an against snake thread on every character forum before you posted.

JunkInTheTrunk said:

Some sample match videos would be good too.

Click to expand...

Like tournment videos?

Thank you, I will make place that in the guide. I should probably make a combo/pseudo combo section.
Except, what is the ending on the Dancing Blade?

Nice, I hate this match up. I think that the shield breaker has a huge potential in this MU because snake shields a lot (when he drops the nades) . it can be very suprising...
oh and to the guy who said that it is possible to chain snake with fthrows - are you really sure its not airdodgable ?

btw - I also practice TKD

Nice. Keep up the good work.

You might want to add Bair to Snake's edgeguarding options. It's my favorite ATM. It has big hitbox, good knockback, it kills or pushes Marth back. It's great.

I seconday Snake BTW.

wow, this is pretty in depth for one bad matchup. good job.

OmegaSephiroth said:

You might want to add Bair to Snake's edgeguarding options. It's my favorite ATM. It has big hitbox, good knockback, it kills or pushes Marth back. It's great.

Click to expand...

Totally forgot about that, I just added it.

Fiz said:

oh and to the guy who said that it is possible to chain snake with fthrows - are you really sure its not airdodgable ?

Click to expand...

I am not quite sure, but Drago does it a lot vs. Dozer.

This is really turning out nicely well done TKD. I'll add it to the sticky at the top.

For high recoveries you can anticipate for more juggling when they come down, or you can surprise them with a Dolphin Slash. If they're at high percentages it can knock them off the top, although what usually happens is just extra damage.

You should really test and fill out what (if anything) can beat snakes tilts. That's what makes Snake so good.

^ All right, I just added that, I filled out one tilt, I still need to finish the others though.

Thank you for the addition. =)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB4EW38yedo&feature=user

ughh god dude the snake player in this video pisses me off so much. I HATE how he camps so much (3:20). Camping like that seriously should get a DQ.

The marth player plays ten times as good and only wins by a stock

snake for teh broken

^ All right I added dtilt -> dancing blade to the combo section. I think I address Dancing Blade in the Marth move by move analysis, but if there is something else you would like to add, just let me know.

Oh yeah, I have. I just read my section and realized its really terse. I guess I assumed everyone else has read every shield-breaker thread. Since you don't need to do anything special with shield-breaker in this match-up, I will just link Emblem Lord's thread.

Hey ... I have a question though ... how come Snake is that hard for Marth?
(Since lol, the matches posted up are Marth wins ... I have trouble trying to find Snake wins on youtube for now)

Anyways, I think one thing that might be good against the Snake USmash spamming is to take the first one with the ledge grab invincibility frames, drop away, take the second one with the invulnerability frames of the dolphin slash, and then the third one with the new ledge grab invincibility frames ...

At least that's how I did it one time ...

Otherwise, I'd guess roll back on to the stage when the second one hits the stage ...

Snake is hard for Marth, because of his projectiles and tilts. Oh and I only included the Matches where Marth won. I am kind of unclear what you are saying with the ledge grab thing though. If you grab the edge and Snake is spamming usmash, just don't stay on the edge, without invincibility frames, and ledge attack him.

Yeah i have a hard time fighting snake. My brother mains him and he is pretty much the only person i practice with. Though i can beat him, he certainly does get pretty close to winning

I just thought I should let everybody know that I am still working on this, but I haven't had much time recently. I have just posted why I have been so busy on the first page, but I will post it here as well.

I am sorry I haven't been able to do many updates recently. Unfortunatly preparing for finals and State haven't left much time for other stuff. I will be able to update once school is out (June 16th) or maybe this weekend.

I did included some new stuff, but it was from Emblem Lord; I will continue doing a through analysis as I have more time.

Sorry for the double post

I just thought I would let everybody know that I am up and running again, with many new updates.

TKD+ITA+Mar= said:

Totally forgot about that, I just added it.



I am not quite sure, but Drago does it a lot vs. Dozer.

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I do it a lot versus Snake players too. I'm not entirely sure if it can't be DIed out of after the second throw, but A good Marth paying attention should be able to link them to the edge. I think it was briefly mentioned, but Up-B versus the dashing up-smash is at least decent. I feel guilty because when I tried it (it was my own idea, I'd never tried clashing it before) I hit Snake up into his own Grenade which he had tossed up, for a Dolphin Slash to Grenade KO 2 hit combo for the win while we were both on our last stock over 100 percent, and the match was too long to get the replay.

Also, sometimes after the throw they will fall down.

Usually, the obvious fair to attempted spike is my main option because if it works it's virtually a free stock. Sometimes, since my opponent is trying to DI away, I'll make the last one a down throw (not throwing them off the edge) and they'll DI into my reverse FSmash for early damage.

IMO Marth's best way to deal with Grenades is to ignore them. I don't know why people gas them so much, unlike other projectiles, they don't deal major damage on contact, so I look at them as openings. As for the C4, the problem I see with a lot of players is that they get intimidated. Snake players look for this intimidation, and use your HESITATION to hit you with the C4, but more times than not I pretend it's not there, because Snake won't be able to predict when I'm going to recklessly go past it.

Counter is actually not that great against Snake's projectile explosions. It looks flashy, but you really want to control the tempo of the match, not look flashy. By minimizing on this move unless Snake uses a direct attack, you can be quicker, and keep the Snake on his toes.

Rising neutrals are a win condition. Simply neutral as soon as you leave the ground to lift Snake and toss him a reasonable distance. When properly spaced, not overly punishable, and chips at shield. The Neutral second slice is usually strong enough to knock Snake off of his Cypher if spaced properly.

DO NOT FORGET ABOUT THE FAIR-UAIR-UTILT combo if your first Fair connects!!!! At low damages, this sets up for some really awesome juggling, and works well against the heavy Snake!

The thing is with the grenades, good Snakes will cook them so the will explode near you, and the issue of shield dropping. Your right about countering projectiles, the only place I even mention it are the C4 and the mines where it sometimes can be advantageous or disadvantageous to counter depending on the location of Snake and diminishing returns. The rising nair is correct also, I was going to put that in but I haven't done Marth's aerials yet. And are you positive that Fair-Uair-Utilt is a combo, it probably is, I just want to make sure before I put it in.

Sorry for the double post... again

Hey I just deleted about 3/4 of guide on accident !!!^8bil, and I was wondering whether or not I should redo it. This mainly hinges on the usefulness of this guide. I want to know if anyone thinks it is useful enough to be worth several hours of work to redo.

Awesome stuff! I really liked the addition of the Snake player's point of view.

I think you should add one thing, though. Rainbow Cruise is the anti-Snake stage. It renders his C4 and mines pretty much useless, mortar slide is hard to land considering the nature of the stage, and the same applies for his Nikita.

A stage that gives a blatant disadvantage to a character? Yes please!

TKD+ITA+Mar= said:

Sorry for the double post... again

Hey I just deleted about 3/4 of guide on accident !!!^8bil, and I was wondering whether or not I should redo it. This mainly hinges on the usefulness of this guide. I want to know if anyone thinks it is useful enough to be worth several hours of work to redo.

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Next Weekly Match up Discussions is probably about Snake, so we can use the info of this thread.
I feel sorry for what happen, I've did this a lot but when designing skins for my forum.

Anth0ny said:

Awesome stuff! I really liked the addition of the Snake player's point of view.

I think you should add one thing, though. Rainbow Cruise is the anti-Snake stage. It renders his C4 and mines pretty much useless, mortar slide is hard to land considering the nature of the stage, and the same applies for his Nikita.

A stage that gives a blatant disadvantage to a character? Yes please!

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Oh yeah, before I accidentally deleted 3/4 of my guide I did have that.