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Mindgames With Sonic

Umby

Smash Master
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[14:40] Teh Umby: Thinking about making a mindgame thread.
[14:41] Boxob: Call it mind game thread, then the only contents can be "IT'S A TRAP"
[14:41] Teh Umby: Hah.
[14:41] Teh Umby: No seriously though.
[14:42] Boxob: Go for it, you're good with mind games

Intro

The purpose of this thread is to attempt an overview of establishing possible tricks to get into your opponents head with Sonic. Mindgames are unstable and spontaneous, and therefore a solid guide establishing solid technique is probably not possible.

I believe such information will allow variety in one's game enough to land those hits that become difficult to land with time during a match, namely those kills moves.

If all goes well, I will be updating periodically. (I'll have to update anyway, seeing as I can't get all thats on mind out in one take)

And of course, I would appreciate any input from the community.

Let's get started.

Terms to Be Familiar With

Just so I don't have to make constant references without some people not knowing what I'm talking about, here's a list of Sonic specific terms (or generally applied terms listed for the specific purposes of this guide) and their acronyms:

  • ASC - Aerial Spin Charge
  • ASD - Aerial Spin Dash
  • DD - Dash Dance
  • HA - Homing Attack
  • SC - Spin Charge
  • SCC - Spin Charge Charge (redundant?)
  • SCJ - Spin Charge Jump
  • SD - Spin Dash
  • SDC - Spin Dash Charge
  • SDJ - Spin Dash Jump
  • SDR - Spin Dash Roll
  • VSDJ - Vertical Spin Dash Jump

What Are Mindgames?

Mindgames, more or less, are movement tricks used to spur on a wanted reaction from an opponent. This reaction ideally places the opponent in a position that's more advantageous for you. It could give you a way to back out into a defensive or setup for a killing move, for example. However, mindgames alone will not net you a typical playstyle that will always win games, nor will they always be as completely advantageous as you may think. You should combine your technical skill and sense of spacing to be effective with mindgames, and always be aware of an opening for an offensive. Remember, mindgames by themselves are worthless unless you can punish with them. Even trying to back out into a defensive position through mindgames is not too feasible with Sonic, since his game generally relies on constant pressure, regardless of how hit and run it may seem.


Observe Your Opponent

Well, it's hard to get into your opponent's head if you don't know what he's thinking. Granted there's a general mindset in most smashers that will make them succumb to certain tactics every now and then, but for the most part, you want to catch onto your opponent while you have the chance. If you're feeling playful enough, you can always stand still or sandbag and watch the opponent make a fool of himself. Then you also have the "run-away-then-side-taunt" method. But in the heat of battle, you're going to need to glean information quickly, which Sonic can do in a number of ways:

Dash Dance (DD)

To be friendly to the new guy, Dash Dancing is simply tapping back and forth on your control stick very quickly. Simply put you'll dash back and forth in place.

While toned down from Melee, and now prone to tripping (ugh), DD still serves as a good spacing tool. You can pretty much do anything from it, and you'll keep the opponent guessing on what your next move is. If it is in your favor, you can also lure out projectiles easily this way (remember how often Falco would SHL a campy dash dancing Fox?). There are pretty much two general actions a player will take when dealing with a Dash Dancing opponent.

1) Projectile spam.
2) Rush you.

Countering projectile spam is where I believe Dash Dancing for Sonic really shines. You can lead an opponent on, then shield dash whatever they throw out, often netting you a grab, or at least the chance for a SH Fair.

When dealing with a Rush, you'll probably encounter a dash attack, in which case you shield and punish. Be careful though, as a number of Dash Attacks in Brawl aren't completely invulnerable most of the time, and characters like Fox and ZSS can follow up quickly with consecutive attacks. In the likes of Marth and Meta Knight, who can approach with short hopped aerials, remember that Dash Dancing allows you to switch into a run into any direction, so if you wish to remain in a relatively offensive position, use it to place you midrange within the opponent. Otherwise, get away completely and setup your next offensive.

Make SURE you pay attention to how your opponent reacts in these types situations.


Double Take

Sonic is fast...
The obvious out of the way, Sonic's speed is a mindgame in itself. Most characters will just sit back and allow Sonic to come to them, since he's too fast to chase, and they might end up running into an attack the never saw coming. In this instance, they're looking to shield grab or come out of a shield with an aerial as soon as he gets close. Key word being shield. You can counter this simply by running past them and coming back for an attack, most preferably a grab. You can see DarkNES386 doing this often in his recordings. This also works for Spin Dash Rolls. Simply zoom past the shield, turn around and lead into combos or whatever. What does this have to do with observation? This allows you to see how defensive an opponent gets while under pressure. There are numerous scenarios, and I'll go over the generality of them in an update in the near future.


Your Special Moves

All but one of Sonic's specials are similar in the fact that they look like him rolled into a ball. That, coupled with his down smash and dash attack, is another mindgame in itself. @_@ As matter of fact, Sonic's specials have natural properties that easily fake out the opponent upon use.

Homing Attack (Neutral Special)

Except for recovery purposes, Homing Attack is nothing by itself. It's only generally useful solo as a surprise attack, as the stall in activation serves to complement constant speedy approaches (this means if you've been zooming around the whole match, you can use this to throw your opponent off a bit ._.).

However, of special note, a useful feature of the HA is its ability to be canceled. Pressing the special button activates HA and pressing the special button again midway through the wind up duration will cut down on the startup lag.

doing a standing jump > ASC looks like Homing Attack ;d

but, one problem with this is that people who expect it will usually prepare an anti-aerial attack or a shield. Shield isn't a problem, since it's susceptible to shield cancel (lol on both sides) powers. But people know HA will go above them and sometimes charge Usmash. This sometimes catches the ASC, too :[

which is where delaying the charge and doing a grounded SC comes in lol.


You're Too Slow?

If you look at discussions on how other characters like to play against Sonic (unless it's a Marth or Meta Knight discussion), you may notice that characters would rather let Sonic come to them first. This is due to the obvious fact that Sonic quickly covers alot of ground, to which he most likely gains the advantage if you try and meet him midway. You can turn this into an advantage by mixing up your playing speed for a while.

Let's face it, nothing throws off an opponent like walking and tilting for about 20 seconds when you've been Spin Dashing and Dash Attacking all day. There's even an increased chance that you'll throw off their spacing and get a load of shield grabs in (and that's a note from experience).

Slowing down comes with a conflict - you'll often find yourself sitting idle. This can be a double-edged sword. On one hand, this could help give Sonic extra surprise edge on his next attack. It can be difficult to judge and react to a still target that can burst out at you at blazing speed. On the other hand, you have heavy spammers like Pit and R.O.B. and good offensive pressure whores like Marth and Meta Knight who can easily bog you down when your sitting still.

Slowing down shouldn't grouped in with one of those simple mindgames, like screech stopping to fsmash, but more of a way to add versatility to your general approach to somewhat disrupt how the opponent will intercept you. Sonic's speed is what gives him one of is few advantages over certain characters, and stripping that away can become a boon over your game. In other words, only slow down to switch things up a bit.

At this point I'd also like to introduce to you what is known as the "Slow Run" or the "Infinite Run."

How exactly do you do this "slow run"/"infinite run"?
The easiest, I think, is tapping the analog so you'll do a quick dash and then holding the analog a bit forward. Sonic you'll start his "full run animation", but at a slower pace. Then, holding the analog in that position will result in a "slow run", which you can use for this "infinite run".
BTW, you can run normally and then hold the analog a bit back and the result will be a "slower run" as well.
There's more experimenting to be done, I think, with applying this technique before calling it a useful mindgame, and therefore won't offer advice on using this to your advantage. Just know that it looks pretty cool.





Will be adding more soon, obviously. Leave comments.
 

Tenki

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._.; miscellaneous stuff for the sake of listing them down or discussing later:

- Side-B charge cancel: attack bait.
- Running backwards and doing a B-reversal forward
- Charging down-B from a distance and letting the charge die (lol shields)
- ASC > shield
- Empty shorthops, N-air shorthops, B-air "WOP" (just started incorporating this as B-air's IASA frames can lead to a sudden run approach)
- Movement patterns from spamming (spring spam, Spindash/ASC cancel spam)
- Reversing direction with spring>d-air (most people will expect you to d-air toward them, but you can try doing a reverse spring and doing d-air away from them)
- Empty jumps on falling opponents (bait airdodges)
- Jumping ASC (charge) > baiting usmash/anti-aerial attack > use SDR instead

iono. that's some stuff that i've been trying to use more often, more recently empty FF jumps.

PS relying on graphical confusion only works for people who don't play vs Sonic alot :[ it's unreliable
 

Rambo23

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jumping off the stage then spring back up seems to confuse most of my opponents as does spindashing around the stage then spring jumping up
 

TwinkleToes

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I approve MUCHO of this thread.

Some other mind games you should consider:

Running into a side-b. Not something I've practiced a ton, but it can really throw counter-attacks off a lot. Plus, the side-b can be jump/shield canceled and the priority is fantastic.

Forward bair gimping. I notice a lot of characters would rather dodge past Sonic than screw around with counter attacking and run the risk of bouncing/falling to their doom. To get by this, I do a forward bair which means I bair facing them, they dodge past me and into the bair kick. True, they land up back on stage, but it's extra damage and you can sometimes get back to the stage fast enough to continue chasing/comboing and dictating the fight.

I'll post more stuff if I think of it.
 

Spin-Dash

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Regarding the Spin Dash, I love to do this and it messes with people BADLY. The trick where you just release the fully charged Spin Dash but hold up on the analog. And if you REALLY wanted to, you could float backwards. Many people will either think they can punish Sonic for trying to act cool from below (in which this is ACTUALLY a good time to use the Homing Attack because sometimes the AI of the attack can be unpredictable in how it targets your opponent), or just trigger another Spin Dash or even the Spin Charge. This works a lot.

My favorite, however. And I'm the only one who uses this to start combos when I JUST grabbed the ledge?

Ledge Hopped Spin Charge. You play with their minds in how they think that you're just gonna either roll on, jump over their head, attack from the ledge, or do a fair. These are all good tactics when mixed up.

But try to do a ledge hop and use Down B. You don't move forward at all so anyone trying to shield an oncoming fair or ledge attack from just getting back up aren't gonna punish you, and you just come back BLAZING onto the field. If they haven't dropped their guard, then you've blazed RIGHT by them and you're back in control of the field again.

If you want to be even more bold and can time the hop right, use the Side B with a Ledge Hop Spin Dash. You'll pull BACK from anything they might try to do (Marth's tipper comes to mind), and you'll come to the stage and trap them. It's the perfect mind game that Sonic users don't utilize.
 

The_Dyne

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This thread gets the Sonic Seal of Approval!
:sonic:

Anyway, I like to SDJ to Homing Attack on occasion, it works wonders.
 

BlueTerrorist

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I love this thread.

Sometimes the best way to mess with people's minds with Sonic is to not attack at all. Am I the only one succeding in attacking people behind their backs?

One time I fought a Link player, and I did this. Each time I went to him, he always put up his shield or rolled. Each time he whiffed an attack, I just started smacking him around the place. Then I killed him when I ran past his Fsmash and stutter stepped Fsmash to victory.

Another thing I do now is Spin Dash Dance (just move it back and forth and it shouldn't damage them). I messed with a Marth with this, he used his counter and since I went past him, I held forward and proceeded to combo him.

I dunno, I even went under Falco's reflector doing said things above concerning the Spin Dash. Something i'm looking into more. :ohwell:
 

FrostByte

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Some basic stuff on prediction/punishment to get around defensive play.


Catching rolls/spotdodges: Sonic doesn't really excel in this department because he doesn't have a quick enough attack with a large hitbox. Dtilt will allow you to move forward, just out of your opponent's range if they roll behind you. You'll be about an ftilt range away from them.


Catching airdodges: A main factor of high level play is being able to bait your opponent into airdodging. This will most likely be where you jump at them. Late aerials can stop high airdidges (about the height of a mid % uthrow). A shorthop can be used to bait a low airdodge, in which case you do not attack as it will just eat a lot of shield. Always go for the grab when you opponent decides to airdodge near the ground.

Sadly, Sonic doesn't have a killer aerial like Zelda or falcon, so baiting low airdodges are the way to go. Grabbing coubled with pummel whoring deals a good amount of % too.
 

ROOOOY!

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I love this thread.

Sometimes the best way to mess with people's minds with Sonic is to not attack at all. Am I the only one succeding in attacking people behind their backs?
Yeah, it really gets to an opponent, I suppose you could get some characters who shouldn't start playing more agressively by doing this.
+It's funny to watch someone grab at nothing at all, repeatedly.
 

Napilopez

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This thread rox my sox.

Ultimate Sonic Mindgame: Walk.

Its hilarious when I walk with Sonic and see people start dodging or shielding.

And being totally serious, spamming taunts with Sonic against a character with no projectiles is hilarious. Make sur eyour enemy is on one end of the stage, run to the other and start "Your tooo slowww!" or "Common step it up!". Doing this on FD vs Ike = Spontaneous combustion for Ike. Seriously. He takes his sword stabs himself then bursts into flames.

Yeps.

Haha if I run, jump then Side taunt when I hit the floor, I oven have people shield me because they think Sonic's ctually running.

More usable mindgames are some obvious ones though.

I can't tell you how many times I've had peole walk into a fully charged D-Smash if I use it like only once in a match. :p

Mixing up my homing attacks to throw enemies off really does work wonders.

A personal favorite of mine:

You know the Side-Bs mega priority? Often, especially against projectile spammers, I mess up my timing with the SideB on purpose and let myself get outprioritized from it during its periods of low priority. This will make them think that either the SideB has low priority, or if theyre Sonic saavy, that I don't know how to time it right or that I don't know about the technique. But then, near the end of the match, I'll pull out a SideB and have it outprioritize an Fsmash or other high priority attack, and watch as my enemy reacts with a ZOMGWTHECK.
 

Zero_Gamer

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Instead of running right through the opponent, I like to SH -->air dodge past him, invincible mind gaming =)

And don't hate on Sonic's smashes, they are actually very strong and are great on spot dodgers.
 

Gangsta_inc

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ASC helped me against spot dodging,.
I used a short hopped ASC and held it a second longer than normal, he dodged and I rolled into him and did that FSJ,spring, dair move set me up for a well placed up smash to U-air death.

Then again I don't know much. sorry.
 

Tenki

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I don't like using Side Taunt though. I usually use up/down taunt. I think up-taunt has the lowest time to it, so you can 'recover' from it and retaliate after you use it.

Ironically enough, "You're too slow" is the 'slowest'/ longest taunt Sonic has lol.

[edit]
vvv lol. it's 180% on Final Destination (grounded opponents) though :[

Oh man, speaking of ASC, I noticed I was actually able to pull the beginning of the Perfect Combo on shielding opponents D:

double ASC hit>SDR>SDJ hurts shields ;O
 

Browny

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ASC is a great mindgame.

'olul hes charging up the homing attack, time to go u-air him off the top'
'hmm since when does homing attack charge this lo...'
ASC gets a star KO at like 120%, especially on green greens LOL

pwnt
 

R4ZE

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ASC is my favorite attack right now... and somehow... one of my ASC knocked an MK out of tornado today.


but about mindgames: the only mind game i can think of that no1 has already mentioned.. is the similarities of ASC and HA startups. I know I have thrown in HA where i normally jump or shorthop into ASC, and it really threw off my opponents.. they do look and sound very similar... even to me.
 

Tenki

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but about mindgames: the only mind game i can think of that no1 has already mentioned.. is the similarities of ASC and HA startups. I know I have thrown in HA where i normally jump or shorthop into ASC, and it really threw off my opponents.. they do look and sound very similar... even to me.
I think someone DID mention it earlier.

doing a standing jump > ASC looks like Homing Attack ;d

but, one problem with this is that people who expect it will usually prepare an anti-aerial attack or a shield. Shield isn't a problem, since it's susceptible to shield cancel (lol on both sides) powers. But people know HA will go above them and sometimes charge Usmash. This sometimes catches the ASC, too :[

which is where delaying the charge and doing a grounded SC comes in lol.
 

R4ZE

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true. to best use ASC, you should always use it at different heights(to counter different things) and also ground them as well. (you dont always have to sheild cancel ASC)

the attack in itself is a very versitile thing so its great for mindgames =)
 

Tenki

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Spin Dash Jump (SDJ) - Not sure if this is the general term we at the Sonic boards have dubbed it, but this is when Sonic jumps during the Spin Dash Charge without releasing the Spin Dash itself. You'll shoot straight up into the air, able to move left or right.
That's part of it. What you describe there IS a SDJ (jumps higher than normal, potentially can move faster than normal jump speed), but specifically it's jump-cancelling the charge, since it works with both moves.

Personally, if I say SDJ, I'm talking about using it out of an SDR.
btw, SDJ out of SDR is also pretty underused. Honestly, you can cover more distance with it than spinshot due to its height, moves faster than normal (chase off-stage?) and it looks kinda freaky if you fast fall. The "glow" around Sonic also gives the illusion of an attack aura, but it actually loses it around the peak of the jump =/
 

Umby

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That's part of it. What you describe there IS a SDJ (jumps higher than normal, potentially can move faster than normal jump speed), but specifically it's jump-cancelling the charge, since it works with both moves.

Personally, if I say SDJ, I'm talking about using it out of an SDR.
btw, SDJ out of SDR is also pretty underused. Honestly, you can cover more distance with it than spinshot due to its height, moves faster than normal (chase off-stage?) and it looks kinda freaky if you fast fall. The "glow" around Sonic also gives the illusion of an attack aura, but it actually loses it around the peak of the jump =/
Which means I'll have to revise the statement that makes reference to this when talking about Spin Charge. Are there technical terms we can use to separate the vertical SDJ from the SDJ out of an SDR?
 

Tenki

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Jump cancel(led) charge? Dunno :x

btw, jumping and using homing attack as you get to around head height works wonders. Sometimes it baits dash attacks just for you to 'reverse' your fall (float up) and bonk them on the head :3

gotta be careful not to do it too close around characters with attacks that have an aura that goes in front of+above them though (like Marth/Ike F-smash)
 

R4ZE

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is it possible to SDJ into an ASC? sonic could stay in "ball mode" forever!
 

darkNES386

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A couple things:

The homing attack can be canceled. Pretty common knowledge, but what has happened is opponents have adjusted and learned the canceled timing. Sometimes it pays to not cancel it. The opponent reacts early when you don't cancel and then finds themselves getting hit by the regular version. In one sentence: Mix up the timing of your home attack release to keep your opponent guessing. Is this valid for mind games?


Spin Dash Jump (SDJ) - Not sure if this is the general term we at the Sonic boards have dubbed it, but this is when Sonic jumps during the Spin Dash Charge without releasing the Spin Dash itself. You'll shoot straight up into the air, able to move left or right.
.... well..... we've been saying Spin Dash Jump whenever you jump during a SDR. So either saying "Vertical SDJ" or my preferred choice: PSDJ (Premature Spin Dash Jump) =)


Also, does anyone know what I'm talking about?:
So do we have a name for Sonic's ability to fox-trot and slide a good extra distance before the fox-trot finishes?

To do what I'm saying... tap forward and hold long enough to do a full "grind style" slide, but not too long to start a full sprint. Then just barely press foward and sonic will slide even further.

You can get across final d in like 3 of these.
Mind Game Material?
 

TwinkleToes

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Not mind game so much as it is an approach method right? As I understand it you can smash out of that.
 

R4ZE

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i beleive so, but dont you have to jolt backwards and then release the stick to neutral position before executing the smash? (i think this is what phanna was talkign about somwhere)


otherwise i beleive it does a dash attack.
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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i beleive so, but dont you have to jolt backwards and then release the stick to neutral position before executing the smash? (i think this is what phanna was talkign about somwhere)


otherwise i beleive it does a dash attack.
That smash stuff is in Aftermath's dash guide I believe. Although delayed dash attack isn't that bad on it's own. With proper spacing you can even do the dash attack, force opponent to spring and chase thing people have been getting hyped about.
 

Tenki

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is it possible to SDJ into an ASC? sonic could stay in "ball mode" forever!
In a SDJ, you can:
- Spring, Homing Attack
- Double jump (if you have remaining jumps)
- A-attack
- airdodge

If you use SDJ and want to go to an ASC/SD, you'll have to cancel it with one of those moves. F-air's the fastest, I think.

It works with spinshot since you're basically just in a double jump.
 

R4ZE

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yea, i HATE using my double jump with sonic... because it often leads to air-tripping and death by ASC
 

memphischains

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LuCKy where the **** did you come from, you always appear out of thin air

which is the same amount as Sonic's meta game
 

LuCKy

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iono umby im'd me......so i was like

"it's time to **** the sonic boards"

"........................."

"lol"
 

Tenki

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Springs and The Roundhouse Punch move!

lol I like how Spin Dash Jump gets no acronym but Vertical Spin Dash Jump gets SDJ

I just remembered something while playing against a Samus user earlier:

Spring kickspam (multiple d-air on spring).
Edgeguarding (note: don't place it ON the edge, especially if you don't have another spring available), it has some weird effects. Its sweetspot is about Usmash height, so you can catch people who use ledgejump with it and hit them with the low trajectory that D-air is so awesome for. Against people who are trying to come in high, you can stay low with d-airs, then release suddenly to catch up to them.

I remembered it (lol haven't used it recently thanks to the ASC hype) when I knocked a Samus user off the edge. She tried to come in high, and I moved back, d-aired on a spring I had set up (not kick-spam, I just did a max-height D-air), and bounced up and hit her with a sweetspot N-air for the kill :x

=== E = D = I= T ===
B-air has IASA (pretty much... cancellable) frames. People see a missed B-air and may think it's an opening to attack and- BAM! FSMASH IN THE FACE!
I'm not too sure, but I think it's also a combo at low % lol

Awesome shield pressure and KO move :3

If you haven't figured it out, it's a (SH) late B-air>Fsmash xD

it's too good

F-tilt (well, any other move) works too, I guess. But Fsmash feels so good :3
 
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