Tujex
Smash Ace
I rarely time my punches well enough to get the SA effect out of the Africa Pawnch, so a 9 punch will probably work better for me.
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Something Interesting About Giant Punch *Big Update and Fancy Chart*
- Thread starter Big O
- Start date
i1337
Smash Ace
it depends on what character im facing. for example, vs meta u need a lot of super armour so i charge it fully. vs, say, falcon, id do a 9 punch.
Hey, Big O, I finally got around to putting the rough KO values in a table. I hope it’s to your liking …
I guess it’s obvious, but if you graph the two data sets, you can see that they have the same shapes — it’s just that one’s above the other. How much higher are the 9-Punch values? Well, the average difference between the damage % needed to KO is 23, which is an impressive statistic!
Hope this helps out a bit with your great guide. Thanks for all your hard work working this stuff out.
I guess it’s obvious, but if you graph the two data sets, you can see that they have the same shapes — it’s just that one’s above the other. How much higher are the 9-Punch values? Well, the average difference between the damage % needed to KO is 23, which is an impressive statistic!
Hope this helps out a bit with your great guide. Thanks for all your hard work working this stuff out.
These are of course with no di right?Hey, Big O, I finally got around to putting the rough KO values in a table. I hope it’s to your liking …
I guess it’s obvious, but if you graph the two data sets, you can see that they have the same shapes — it’s just that one’s above the other. How much higher are the 9-Punch values? Well, the average difference between the damage % needed to KO is 23, which is an impressive statistic!
Hope this helps out a bit with your great guide. Thanks for all your hard work working this stuff out.
Thanks Nokonoko and nice chart by the way. I like how clean and organized it looks when you look at all of it at once too. Excellent job. To awnser your question Jmex these are KO numbers without DI'ing the hit, but with double jumping toward the stage as soon as you can (think how you tried to survive when you first played smash) so most people who do not DI your hits up will die at the percentages listed from the middle of FD (all numbers rounded up since you can't tell if its 44.0 or 44.99% without memorizing exact damages).
i1337
Smash Ace
love that chart...lol
Yeah, those values are really just a rough guide. It occurred to me that calculating the damage numbers using MrSilver’s calculations and tabulating those, based on the numbers you gave, Big O, would be a lot more useful.
However, I’m a bit confused.
Firstly, the PAL version — as you might expect — deals with speed in km/h. The Japanese version would undoubtedly do the same. However, the thing is that the values don’t correspond at all when converted. MrSilver commented that the mph values the game spits out seem arbitrary, so obviously the conversion the game does is wrong. For example, give Mario a steamer at exactly 50% damage, and he’ll go flying at 107km/h (66.5mph), a number which makes a lot more sense than 5329mph (based on your numbers). That’s beside the point, however.
I mention this because I wanted to try out your numbers for the punch, just to make sure the observed values match the expected before I went ahead and made a table.
Since I can’t check it out myself, I just wanted to make sure you were confident about those numbers.
Another thing — when you figured out the “death zone” from the middle of FD, can you describe for my benefit exactly how you DI’d? Straight up, or perpendicular to the launch direction? Any smash DI? Trying to airdodge out of hitstun?
It’s no big deal, I’d just like to find the numbers that opponents wouldn’t have any hope after when they’re perfectly 9-punched.
So if you have confidence that 7600 “mph” is the point of no return, then I’ll just run it by my calculator and make up a table in a flash.
(Sorry for the long post.)
Just recording this for interest’s sake — I got ~1.15 km/h for knockback growth and ~15.65 km/h for base knockback in the PAL version.
However, I’m a bit confused.
Firstly, the PAL version — as you might expect — deals with speed in km/h. The Japanese version would undoubtedly do the same. However, the thing is that the values don’t correspond at all when converted. MrSilver commented that the mph values the game spits out seem arbitrary, so obviously the conversion the game does is wrong. For example, give Mario a steamer at exactly 50% damage, and he’ll go flying at 107km/h (66.5mph), a number which makes a lot more sense than 5329mph (based on your numbers). That’s beside the point, however.
I mention this because I wanted to try out your numbers for the punch, just to make sure the observed values match the expected before I went ahead and made a table.
Since I can’t check it out myself, I just wanted to make sure you were confident about those numbers.
Another thing — when you figured out the “death zone” from the middle of FD, can you describe for my benefit exactly how you DI’d? Straight up, or perpendicular to the launch direction? Any smash DI? Trying to airdodge out of hitstun?
It’s no big deal, I’d just like to find the numbers that opponents wouldn’t have any hope after when they’re perfectly 9-punched.
So if you have confidence that 7600 “mph” is the point of no return, then I’ll just run it by my calculator and make up a table in a flash.
(Sorry for the long post.)
Just recording this for interest’s sake — I got ~1.15 km/h for knockback growth and ~15.65 km/h for base knockback in the PAL version.
Actually if you do not DI the hit or airdodge/aerial of of hitstun to jump earlier the numbers in the chart are 100% accurate (those numbers were KO figures for the most basic form of recovery). I didn't feel like DI'ing and aerial/airdodging to get out of hitstun earlier for each char because it would be a lot harder to test by myself and much more time consuming to check all the possible ways to survive. For your reference the knockback at those %'s in the chart were about 6150-6350 mph (due to different characters jumps stalling momentum better than others).Yeah, those values are really just a rough guide. It occurred to me that calculating the damage numbers using MrSilver’s calculations and tabulating those, based on the numbers you gave, Big O, would be a lot more useful.
However, I’m a bit confused.
Firstly, the PAL version — as you might expect — deals with speed in km/h. The Japanese version would undoubtedly do the same. However, the thing is that the values don’t correspond at all when converted. MrSilver commented that the mph values the game spits out seem arbitrary, so obviously the conversion the game does is wrong. For example, give Mario a steamer at exactly 50% damage, and he’ll go flying at 107km/h (66.5mph), a number which makes a lot more sense than 5329mph (based on your numbers). That’s beside the point, however.
I mention this because I wanted to try out your numbers for the punch, just to make sure the observed values match the expected before I went ahead and made a table.
(Incidentally, I got ~1.15 and ~15.65 km/h for knockback growth and base knockback respectively, and using MrSilver’s calculations [but excluding falling speed], the speeds I get are “correct” [±5 km/h] for the couple of characters and several initial damage amounts I tested.)
Since I can’t check it out myself, I just wanted to make sure you were confident about those numbers.
Another thing — when you figured out the “death zone” from the middle of FD, can you describe for my benefit exactly how you DI’d? Straight up, or perpendicular to the launch direction? Any smash DI? Trying to airdodge out of hitstun?
It’s no big deal, I’d just like to find the numbers that opponents wouldn’t have any hope after when they’re perfectly 9-punched.
So if you have confidence that 7600 “mph” is the point of no return, then I’ll just run it by my calculator and make up a table in a flash.
(Sorry for the long post.)
To arrive at the guaranteed death zone knockback for the formula (7100-7600) I basically tried to survive the hit at as high of a % I could from the middle of FD. I DI'ed as high as I could without getting sky KO'ed and jumped as soon as I could without killing my self. The higher the angle the slower the horizontal component will be which results in less distance traveled horizontally. Aiming too high gets you star KO'ed. With different characters the max I could survive was different based on the different fall speeds (gravity counteracts vertical launches). For JIggs it was about 7100 and for D3 it was a little less than 7600.
A few things should be noted about the formula though. It will not be 100% perfectly accurate because there are some very weird things that go on if you try to make the equations perfect. If you want a perfect equation that works for every character its not gonna happen because the real in game equations are probably exremely convoluted. The relative weights of each character are slightly different for each move. A 9 punch and # punch require 2 different weight lists for 100% accuracy and it drove me crazy for a while wondering why the equations were always ever so slightly off based on the data I had. Even things like move decay behave differently for each move knockback wise as some have bigger power growth reductions than others. There could also very likely be human error involved with the weight lists too. In general though it will be within 10 mph of the real values if you compensate for the varying initial knockback.
Are you sure its not m/s for the PAL version? I wouldn't be surprised if they don't convert properly regardless though. Things like this were probably rushed to meet the deadline. Be aware that the knockback after punching them at 0% is not the initial knockback (you probably know but its easy to forget). You have to subtract 29.4 X power growth on Mario (since he is the base no need to use the "fall spd" correction thing).
Yeah, you can’t expect perfection when the values the game works with are considerably more precise then what we’re shown.
It’s no doubt km/h because that’s the measure of speed average people (outside of the U.S.) are most comfortable with. It’s not real velocity, since we aren’t given a directional component, so you can’t blame them for going with whatever instead of the expected metres/s. It’s weird, though, that the “mph” in the US verison are so wrong.
Anyway, I put all the data so far into a much more sensible table. (I just gave the mean of the damage values given by 7100 and 7600 mph since it’s never more than ~4 points off.)
Before you click, note that this chart’s values for survivability with D.I. include punch damage (they shouldn’t), and are otherwiseslightly considerably inaccurate. D:
Hope it’s all okay! Sorry that it’s not so okay.
It’s no doubt km/h because that’s the measure of speed average people (outside of the U.S.) are most comfortable with. It’s not real velocity, since we aren’t given a directional component, so you can’t blame them for going with whatever instead of the expected metres/s. It’s weird, though, that the “mph” in the US verison are so wrong.
Anyway, I put all the data so far into a much more sensible table. (I just gave the mean of the damage values given by 7100 and 7600 mph since it’s never more than ~4 points off.)
Before you click, note that this chart’s values for survivability with D.I. include punch damage (they shouldn’t), and are otherwise
It's great to see someone else contribute to this thread. Nokonoko your new chart has two issues that I saw. The first and most important error is that you forgot to subtract the damage of the punch (very close to 29.4) from the percentages you listed. The damage formula claculates the knockback using the damage after the hit connects so subtracting the damage the punch does will give you KO%'s before punching (easy to see since DI will not let you live 50% longer). The next thing is not really too important overall but if you include the variance in initial knockback in the equation you will see that the spacies and some others are KO'ed even sooner (especially Fox) and some characters like Jiggs and Samus last a bit longer. If you compare the order of the characters on the side of the chart using the incomplete equations and the side of the chart using my data you will see that the discrepancies like Fox being KO'ed before Kirby are caused by the varying initial knockback.
The complete formual for your mean value would be [(7350-1063-103x)/(71.51666667/relative weight)-29.4] for a 9 punch and [[(7350-786-89x)/(57.21333333/relative weight)-29.4] for a steaming punch. X is the varience coefficient (referred to by relative fall spd in MrSilver's guide) in initail knockback. Testing from me shows the c values referred to in MrSilver's guide being 89 and 103 as seen in the equations. This equation will be really close to the real values given but the values for the "relative fall spd" are not super accurate so it will be off by some small constant number (like+/- 5 mph) and the relative weights will be a little off on steaming punches because the gap in power between it and Ike's fsmash which was used in MrSilver's test (9 punches are so close in power they match up very well with MrSilver's weights). An example would be that Fox's relative weight to Mario on a steaming punch is .908 and on a 9 punch it is .910 like in MrSilver's list. Since no one lives past100%, the small difference doesn't really matter (a steaming punch at 100% would be 18 mph off based off this difference).
The complete formual for your mean value would be [(7350-1063-103x)/(71.51666667/relative weight)-29.4] for a 9 punch and [[(7350-786-89x)/(57.21333333/relative weight)-29.4] for a steaming punch. X is the varience coefficient (referred to by relative fall spd in MrSilver's guide) in initail knockback. Testing from me shows the c values referred to in MrSilver's guide being 89 and 103 as seen in the equations. This equation will be really close to the real values given but the values for the "relative fall spd" are not super accurate so it will be off by some small constant number (like+/- 5 mph) and the relative weights will be a little off on steaming punches because the gap in power between it and Ike's fsmash which was used in MrSilver's test (9 punches are so close in power they match up very well with MrSilver's weights). An example would be that Fox's relative weight to Mario on a steaming punch is .908 and on a 9 punch it is .910 like in MrSilver's list. Since no one lives past100%, the small difference doesn't really matter (a steaming punch at 100% would be 18 mph off based off this difference).
*checks TI*
Oh yeah. I did forget to subtract the punch damage. And no, I did not bother with MrSilver’s “c” term.
It might be way too time-consuming, but wouldn’t running a trial for survivability with D.I. be the only way to get reliable results?
That, or decompiling the game to find the real formulae …
Oh yeah. I did forget to subtract the punch damage. And no, I did not bother with MrSilver’s “c” term.
It might be way too time-consuming, but wouldn’t running a trial for survivability with D.I. be the only way to get reliable results?
That, or decompiling the game to find the real formulae …
It seems I need to make a few corrections. It turns out that MrSilver's constants don't hold true for the steaming punch. Not only is the relative weight off (already known and not that big a deal) but also the initial knockback correction term. For some reason people like Bowser go from .91 to some negative term (???) so the formula is inaccurate for steaming punches. It works on 9 punches though for sure. I don't feel like testing to find all of the coefficients so I will probably end up just punching each character at 0 and 300% and get the formula from there. This way it will be more reliable and less of a headache. Also it seems that the 7100 I gave as guaranteed death for Jiggs was really for like Metaknight lol so the KO knockback is actually from 7000 (Jiggs) to 7650 (D3). A 9 punch will always KO D3 at 69% and everyone else is KO'ed earlier including Bowser. Jiggs dies at 42% from the 9 punch. I tested these in-game and the formula matched the real knockback (at least it works for 9 punches/glad it wasn't a total waste) and these percentages were indeed the breaking point.
The only thing needed to narrow down the KO% with the method I will use is finding where in the KO range each character is but at least I know that higher fall spd means higher knockback needed so you get can a really good idea of how much you need.
The only thing needed to narrow down the KO% with the method I will use is finding where in the KO range each character is but at least I know that higher fall spd means higher knockback needed so you get can a really good idea of how much you need.
The Director
Smash Lord
...uh, or you could fully charge your punch to get the invaluable super armor.
Donkey Bong
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 610
i've been practicing it a bit, and maybe its just me, but its totally not possible for my to double tap B faster than 7 frames apart.
guess thats a good thing
Lol I guess too much Mario Party (the old one on N64) helped speed up my mashing because I have to consciously slow down to get it right.
Terodactyl Yelnats
Smash Ace
DK's has lots of advantages, this is amazing. I figured this out to and was going make a page on it, but to my surprise you had already made this a month before I did. DK's 9 punch is is almost as strong as a fully charged fsamsh from him, it only only kills about 3% later.
Yeah I found this out in like April but never actually tried seeing how much stronger it was until like June. It's funny how many games I barely won because I 9 punched them at like 50%. Huge momentum changer.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Call me crazy, but I prefer the max charge punch over the nine punch. It has more range, and SA. It's also easier to pull off.
ZxChrono
Smash Journeyman
yeah its easier to pull off but its good to have in the early % of fighting your opponent for a early kill. as others have stated once they are within killing range of a steam punch then you might as well wind it up for the SA and range.
Luigi player
Smash Master
What? The difference from DI and no DI is about 40 %?!
The good thing about the giant punch is that it has SA. It has good range, is strong and isn't that slow.
The only times I hit with it are:
*very rarely a surprise/mindgame into it
*almost all of the time: I hit my enemy while he's also doing an attack and I don't get any knockback, because of the SA
*sometimes if I hit with a headbutt I can use it
Now the damage from the giant punch is important and it REALLY helps KOing your opponent and it's most important thing why it works is it's SA.
So if I'd use the 9-punch I won't have the damage done by the giant punch anymore (which means I'll KO my opponent later). And it's also not easy to get in a headbutt so you can use it... this means that I'd lose more than what I'd get if I use the 9-punch more. =/
Btw, does anyone know what the KO-% difference is from DKs fsmash (charged and uncharged) and steam-punch? Which is stronger, and by how much?
Yeah I really prefer it by a mile...
The good thing about the giant punch is that it has SA. It has good range, is strong and isn't that slow.
The only times I hit with it are:
*very rarely a surprise/mindgame into it
*almost all of the time: I hit my enemy while he's also doing an attack and I don't get any knockback, because of the SA
*sometimes if I hit with a headbutt I can use it
Now the damage from the giant punch is important and it REALLY helps KOing your opponent and it's most important thing why it works is it's SA.
So if I'd use the 9-punch I won't have the damage done by the giant punch anymore (which means I'll KO my opponent later). And it's also not easy to get in a headbutt so you can use it... this means that I'd lose more than what I'd get if I use the 9-punch more. =/
Btw, does anyone know what the KO-% difference is from DKs fsmash (charged and uncharged) and steam-punch? Which is stronger, and by how much?
i1337
Smash Ace
lol, i killed a fox at 27% yesterday with a reverse 9 punch at the edge of smashville during an aib ladder match. :D
(but i usually just use the full charge lol)
(but i usually just use the full charge lol)
Bad DI ftw?
Luigi player
Smash Master
Hm in training mode Marios dies (in the middle of fd) from the fsmash at 75 % and from the fully charged punch at 67 %. So I guess you could say the KO-% difference is about 8 %.
That means you can could save your giant punch and KO your opponent with a fsmash instead... but you could charge your punch after you hit him anyway until he's back lol.
From a fully charged fsmash Mario dies at 42 %, from a 9-punch at 51 %.
Summary:
Mario in the middle of FD (in training mode) and no DI dies at:
fsmash: 75 %
charged fsmash: 42 %
steamer punch: 67 %
9-punch: 51 %
That are really nice numbers, too bad that with DI it's about 40 % more...
I mostly did this for myself, but maybe it helps someone else too...
Btw, I just got an idea. You could heatbutt your opponent into the ground and then charge an upsmash right above them which kills mario at 36 % (no DI and WITH headbutt (so it's 46 % then)). They can't airdodge until they've reached the highest point of their jump out of the ground. You'd need good timing with the upsmash though, but I guess this is off topic here. ^^'
smashkng
Smash Lord
Does 9 charge super armor?
Drizzt6195
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2008
- Messages
- 117
No but it KO's much faster
smashkng
Smash Lord
A good thing is to charge into 9 if the opponent has low %, charge into full if it's at a % where full KO . At what % KO 10 charge giant punch from close (not the vertical knockback hitbox? And sweetspot (tipper)?
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
couple things, the fsmash is much easier to DI, in that it hits them at a more DI-able angle. you should also note that the 3% charged fsmash will ko 20% lower than the uncharged..
second, middle of fd seems like a good place to test, but with dk's zoning most of your punches will be when they're against the ledge, or at least near it, which balances out the DI
third the headbutt is better aerial as it'll do 4 more %
and the release to usmash was already thought of, the problem is you can't get a good charge if they wiggle, and if they don't it'll whiff on most characters. charging a down smash is the better alternative
SuSa
Banned via Administration
My responses are in Cyan.The good thing about the giant punch is that it has SA. It has good range, is strong and isn't that slow.
I get hit more often by the punch when DK isn't steaming and giving off its charged. It's like "I see you....." so I'm on my guard more. It's like the difference of seeing Peach's Stich Turnip, or having her facing so you can't see the face. (Or if you forget Snake has his c4 planted on a platform....)
Also, I'm good at avoiding the SA frames. I find they don't bother me at all.
The only times I hit with it are:
*very rarely a surprise/mindgame into it
*almost all of the time: I hit my enemy while he's also doing an attack and I don't get any knockback, because of the SA
*sometimes if I hit with a headbutt I can use it
1. Sometimes, I mostly forget you guys can B-Reverse it.although I get hit by it less and less.
2. I rarely, if EVER get hit by a well-spaced charged punch.
3. This happens more then the SA frames saving the DK. I NEVER forget those SA Frames are there, and avoid laggy moves when I see a STEAMING DK.
Now the damage from the giant punch is important and it REALLY helps KOing your opponent and it's most important thing why it works is it's SA.
Only if the opponent isn't already in KO %'s. You realize the first part means nothing if they die SOONER anyways? If someone dies @ 38% from a 9 punch, and 48% from a steamed punch, that extra 6% means **** because its already factored in.
So if I'd use the 9-punch I won't have the damage done by the giant punch anymore (which means I'll KO my opponent later). And it's also not easy to get in a headbutt so you can use it... this means that I'd lose more than what I'd get if I use the 9-punch more. =/
If the 9 punch KO's sooner, your argument is ****. Also what does the headbutt have to do with getting a punch in? You're not making any sense
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
if he isn't hitting the SA frames, the dk is doing it wrong. nobody can completely play around those frames since they'd never be able to attack.
that being said the major selling point for the steam punch is that it's 7 frames faster than the 9 punch, so its a bit easier to get off, 9 punch is pretty matchup specific
that being said the major selling point for the steam punch is that it's 7 frames faster than the 9 punch, so its a bit easier to get off, 9 punch is pretty matchup specific
charge upsmash after a headbutt is only realistic against snake, because when he breaks out he doesn't rise as high as the rest of the cast- so you can a ctually release A soon as you see him leave the ground.
Whereas for other characters you're more or less guessing and better off just taking the damage of a d.smash.
Whereas for other characters you're more or less guessing and better off just taking the damage of a d.smash.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
^ it works for bowser and some other fatties too, but yeah, dsmash is the better option on 90% of the cast
smashkng
Smash Lord
I know dsmash does less damage if hit with arms, but does affect knockback? How long last FCGP's Super Armor, is it only while releasing the move?
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
it's as the punch is becoming active
and yeah, knockback is less closer up on the dsmash, you could test that yourself pretty easily dude >.>
and yeah, knockback is less closer up on the dsmash, you could test that yourself pretty easily dude >.>
Actually, his punch is the same way in Melee. 9 charges is stronger (not sure about the damage it does) and it makes a different sound. Whether it makes you invincible like the full one does, I'm not sure.
smashkng
Smash Lord
In Melee Giant Punch is stronger when full charged than 9 charged unlike Brawl. In Melee hrc people use full charge.
Melee:
9 charged does 28%
Full does 30% with insane knockback for such speed.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
^ I think he was talking about the punch having more knockback at 9 winds in melee, not more damage
smashkng
Smash Lord
Then why top records in HRC with DK are done with the full charge?
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
I dunno, i don't pay attention to home run contest