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Yoshi Matchup Thread

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Kiwikomix

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Keep in mind that just because we are no longer discussing a character does not mean that they're not open for debate. Any non-Yoshi mains looking at this thread that have something to contribute can feel free to do so.


Green: Advantage
Red: Disadvantage
Yellow: Neutral
White: Undecided

:ganondorf: Ganondorf - 8:2
:squirtle: Squirtle - 7.5:2.5
:warioc: Wario - 7:3
:jigglypuff: Jigglypuff - 6.5:3.5
:bowser2: Bowser - 6:4
:falcon: Captain Falcon - 6:4
:lucas: Lucas - 6:4
:olimar: Olimar - 6:4
:samus2: Samus - 6:4
:sonic: Sonic - 6:4
:zerosuitsamus: Zero Suit Samus - 6:4
:ivysaur: Ivysaur - 5.5:4.5
:pt: Pokemon Trainer (Overall) - 5.5:4.5
:fox: Fox - 5:5
:popo: Ice Climbers - 5:5
:ike: Ike - 5:5
:kirby2: Kirby - 5:5
:luigi2: Luigi - 5:5
:pit: Pit - 5:5
:shiek: Sheik - 5:5
:toonlink: Toon Link - 5:5
:yoshi2: Yoshi - 5:5 Ditto
:charizard: Charizard - 4.5:5.5
:diddy: Diddy Kong - 4.5:5.5
:mario2: Mario - 4.5:5.5
:metaknight: Meta-Knight - 4.5:5.5
:pikachu2: Pikachu - 4.5:5.5
:dk2: Donkey Kong - 4:6? 3.5:6.5?
:dedede: King Dedede- 4:6
:lucario: Lucario - 4:6
:ness2: Ness - 4:6
:peach: Peach - 4:6
:rob: ROB - 4:6
:snake: Snake - 4:6
:wolf: Wolf - 4:6
:marth: Marth - 3.5:6.5
:zelda: Zelda - 3.5:6.5
:falco: Falco - 3.5:6.5
:link2: Link - 3.5:6.5
:gw: Mr. Game and Watch - 3:7


Questions? Comments? Anything to add? Post in the thread or PM me.

- Kiwi
 

DarkLeviathan89

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Alright, I was just facing a Snake main earlier, so here is my input.

Snake- Snake is power with ridiculous tilts, spammy grenades, and is just overall a great character. But I don't think Yoshi has too big a disadvantage against him. Pivot grabs really help against a mortar sliding Snake, and eggs help keep a grenade-happy Snake on his toes. Yoshi's high weight helps him against Snake's sheer power, but I've still gotten killed at around 120 to 130% with things like the up tilt. He's tall and heavy, so he's kinda easy to combo, but he seems to have a great out-of-shield game so I kinda try to keep my distance around him.

I would probably say 6:4 in Snake's favor.
 
D

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Id say 7:3, just because snake is such a good character. Me and cryostasis(a good norcal D3), came to the conclusion that D3 is probably a 6:4 matchup in D3s favor. From a first glance, D3 dies at very high percents, can kill at low percents, has a very good recovery and amazing edgeguarding, and can chain grab. Yoshi can...combo him, eggs are very important when fighting D3, and...uhhh...dair his shield and destroy it =P D3 also outspams you. However, i think yoshis dair is key in this matchup, because once his shield is small, he cant block your bairs, and D3 is big and one of the fastest fallers in the game sooooooooo, u basically rack up a ton of damage. If he tries to dair to prevent being uaired, u can egg him to continue the chain. But d3 still chain grabs u which isnt cool =/
 

Kiwikomix

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It sounds more like a 7:3 matchup on Dedede's part to me... the way you described it, anyway. Seems like Dedede does his best to run Yoshi out of options.
Snake, however, seems like he would be 6:4 imo. His spam doesn't really work against Yoshi's eggs, his air game won't be used and isn't a threat to Yoshi. Once you're past Snake's spam, all he can really do is use f-tilt, d-tilt and jab. I'm pretty sure Yoshi can deal with d-tilt by approaching with bairs, so Snake can't do much since his projectiles don't immobilize Yoshi as well as, say, Pit's or Falco's.
 
D

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Thats what i said too kiwi =P I dunno, u kinda hafta experience the matchup alot and know what to do, and then its not really too bad, just because yoshi can really do a lot of damage quickly. I still think snake is 7:3, his ftilt owns yoshi pretty badly, and hes not nearly as comboable as D3. Snakes projectile SPAM isnt effective, but grenade dropping is very effective, and alot more than pits arrows. Being trapped between nades and snakes ftilt isnt fun at all =P
 

kackamee

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IMO Snake 7:3
DDD 5:5 Cause although he may outrange you, you are faster and can slowly but surely rack up damage, you just can't run into the ****
 

bigman40

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I agree with Snake vs Yoshi, and D3 vs Yoshi.

D3 has good priority to put a halt in yoshi's aerial game (as long as he doesn't miss them badly). He may not be able to outright finght Yoshi in midair, but his camping, chaingrabs, power, recovery, and wieght make Yoshi try to force something to happen. I think I might be going on a limb here, but I believe Yoshi gives great pressure to D3 as soon as the shield is worn down. As soon as Yoshi can get close, it's gonna look bad watching D3's dmg go up quickly.
 

Defender

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As for Wario, I'd say the matchup is either 6-4 in Wario's favor or neutral. Wario has better arial priority than Yoshi, which snuffs Yoshi's air game. Yoshi wins the ground and projectile battles though, because of his good range and eggs respectively (it's not hard to have better projectiles than Wario's bike tires).

I play Wario a lot due to the fact that I have a friend who mains him, and I have learned quite a bit from my matches. First, eggs can be very useful in most of your matches, but Wario is not the tallest of characters and can dash under them pretty well, so be careful about using your eggs if Wario is within dash attack range. Second, if he tries to keep close to you to counter your eggs, punish him with your pivot grab. Doing so can also give you a chance to use your infinite grab (and yes it is an infinite from my testing with a live Wario player). Third, if he gets bite-happy, try eating him with your egg lay, which can get past his bite. You can then run away and attempt to use a few eggs. Fourth, remember that you can get in a free usmash, fsmash, or uair on Wario when he breaks your grab, giving you a good opportunity to attempt to finish him off. Also, try to keep your standard dodge-hit fsmash or stutter stepping in mind, because both of those tactics may help you take advantage of Wario's short range. Fifth, try to use your extra range to your advantage and be sure to perform your standard attack combo if he ever gets too close for comfort.

Well, that's my opinion of the situation. Let me know what you think of it.

(Special thanks to all those who told me about the free usmash, fsmash, or uair that can be used on Wario once he breaks your grab! If Kiwikomix doesn't mind, I may keep working on this so that he can have it to add to his up-coming in-depth strategies. Of course this is only if the thread progresses that far and if he judges my oppinion to be worthwhile.)
 

Kiwikomix

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As for Wario, I'd say the matchup is either 6-4 in Wario's favor or neutral.
I had a longish discussion over this matchup with a few Wario mains and it seemed the overall consensus was that the matchup is neutral, due to the fact that it's purely momentum-based. Both Yoshi and Wario are combo beasts, and each one capitalizes on the other's weaknesses fairly well. As for Yoshi having difficulties with the KO, his grab-release always leads into a usmash, making it a bit easier to land a uair if for some reason the usmash doesn't KO.
Keep in mind that there's still an undeveloped infinite grab on Wario...
 
D

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Most people dont take advantage of the free uair or usmash after warios grab break, and its very useful. In this matchup, i prefer just to use the usmash after a grab break for damage, and then an uair when its time to KO. Imo eggs dont help much against wario unless hes like stayin away for some reason lol. Id say its neutral, as kiwi said, both characters can do mean things to the other.
 

DMG

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I had a longish discussion over this matchup with a few Wario mains and it seemed the overall consensus was that the matchup is neutral, due to the fact that it's purely momentum-based. Both Yoshi and Wario are combo beasts, and each one capitalizes on the other's weaknesses fairly well. As for Yoshi having difficulties with the KO, his grab-release always leads into a usmash, making it a bit easier to land a uair if for some reason the usmash doesn't KO.
Keep in mind that there's still an undeveloped infinite grab on Wario...
No, we think Wario has a slight advantage (6-4 Wario's favor). I personally am agreeing to keep it at neutral for 1 main reason: To see how much the release grab on Wario truly affects the matchup (the other small reason is to avoid making Mr. Escalator flustered lol :p) If it wasn't for that, I would be 100% confident saying Wario has a small advantage here.

I am interested to see what Yoshi mains say about how Yoshi fares against each character. Even though Ch0zen has a thread like this, I think this one would be more organized/fresher.
 

Gindler

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I prefer the grab release to Fsmash, much more lethal since you're most likely going to have a fresher Fsmash than Usmash. I give against wario a 5:5, some wario players have found out how to get out of the "infinite". but you can still do that one into Fsmash that I usually do at 110-120 for an almost guaranteed kill.

I give snake a 6:4 since the snake mains I've fought think yoshi actually give them a problem for some reason.

Dedede isn't that bad to fight. I prey off his huge size, and starting the match/life off with a dair into his shield and keeping constant pressure on him after that makes blocking your aerials (usually Bair =P) dificult. and having his recovery being so awkward I don't have much of a problem Dairing him during at least one of his jumps, this doesn't kill but racks up damage. his UpB is so easy to punish with yoshi though it's unfair if he decides to land it you can just jump over the stars and Fair it, if he cancels it out and foes into freefall you can get another free Fair or better yet the Uair. As long as you stay somewhat close to D3 I think this match is 6:4 in his favor tops.

and i think we all can agree that against olimar it's at least 6:4 in yoshi's favor. Although that grab range of his is so annoying.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Good thread. Looking forward to the opinions that will be presented here.
 

Kiwikomix

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No, we think Wario has a slight advantage (6-4 Wario's favor).
And I still think it's 6:4 Yoshi... agree to disagree, eh?

And i think we all can agree that against olimar it's at least 6:4 in yoshi's favor. Although that grab range of his is so annoying.
Can you explain this one? I don't think I've played enough competent Olimars as Yoshi to see how he has an advantage.
So far the only Yoshi advantages I can see are that eggs kill Pikmin and bair outprioritizes them, so Yoshi has an almost guaranteed approach. Keep in mind that Olimar is no slouch at close range, though...
 
D

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*Agrees with gindler, although he makes D3 sound easy which it most certainly isnt, even while keeping the pressure on*

Ness is 6-4 his favor. Ive played a lot of good nesses and i think thats reasonable. Ness is a moving wall of aerial priority,and yoshi gets wrecked in the air. Ur bair beats his fair, so if hes blindly trying to apporach with fairs, just bair towards him then DI back. If you thought yoshis rising fair was good, try ness's rising dair. TOOO GOOOD.Watch for PK Fire, it can lead to grabs, fsmash, and pk fire some more. Just always be waiting for it, its not that hard to avoid if you are on your toes. Edgeguarding ness can be tricky, u can gimp him if u do it right, if u dont, ur dead if ur over 25%. Yoshi imo outkills ness as long as u avoid grabs, his fsmash is increadibly easy to read and dodge. Dont try to uair him if hes going to dair u. Eggs are KEY in winning this matchup, and dont miss any chances to pivot grab. Im not sure if it should be 6-4 or even, like most of yoshis matchups, on paper they sound worse than they really are.


G-dorf is 7-3 yoshis favor. I thought it was more even, then pride showed me why its not =/
Chaingrabs, to run away and chuck eggs to chaingrabs ftw!


Edit: Egg roll molests pikmen, its goes through um like butter. However i think the matchup is even if the olimar knows the matchup. If he starts throwin pikmen, u hafta egg roll, and once u do that, ur set up for an easy grab which leads to damage, which leads to him gettin bac his pikmen and camping again (Mr. X is a yoshi molester, but maybe he was just better than me =/)
 

Defender

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Thanks for telling me about the free usmash, fsmash, or uair that you can get in on Wario once he breaks your grab. That will be very useful in upcoming matches.

Concerning the Yoshi-Mario matchup, I'd say that it's pretty even, but it's been awhile since I faced a good Mario (not since Melee, in fact), so I may be wrong.
 

DarkLeviathan89

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I agree with burntsocks on Yoshi vs. Olimar. From my experience, egg rolls, eggs, and down smashes are all effective at killing pikmin. However a campy Olimar is much harder to approach because of Olimar's grab range. It's been a while since I faced a good Olimar, but I'd say 5-5 or 6-4 Olimar, it really depends on the Olimar's playstyle IMO.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: I think Mario still beats Yoshi, but I'll wait until the thread moves in that direction before I post anything.
 

Defender

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:yoshi: I think Mario still beats Yoshi, but I'll wait until the thread moves in that direction before I post anything.
Like I made mention of, it's been awhile since I played a good Mario, so it's not hard for me to believe that I may be off.

Also, I think that the Yoshi-Wolf matchup is at least 6-4 in Wolf's favor. His fsmash is especially annoying to me.
 
D

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Well i played Mr x again today and did better (i still lost), but i think its in yoshis favor definately. Ill elaborate more later but 6-4.
 

Depster

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You guys need to get out more often. Dedede can't chaingrab yoshi. with good timing, you can jab out of it. I'd say yoshi has dedede 6-4
 

PRiDE

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You guys need to get out more often. Dedede can't chaingrab yoshi. with good timing, you can jab out of it. I'd say yoshi has dedede 6-4
umm are you kidding? Yoshi is 100% inescapably chain grabable by DDD. A jabbing out of it only works when DDD messes up the chain grab.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Well, technically, the only way Yoshi is 100% chaingrabbed by King Dedede is when he buffers the dash.

If the dash isn't buffered, Yoshi, Ike, and a few other characters can escape via jab or grab.

I wish I had some frame data to back me up, but I've put a fair amount of work into looking at King Dedede's grabs.
 

biohazard930

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Matchups are good to discuss, but it's a bit...disorganized as it is.
I've seen some other threads that focus on one other character for an amount of time and post the conclusions in the OP after that time is up. I think it could help. What do y'all think?
 

DanGR

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I'm stealing your idea on the chart to add to my own matchup thread. thanks!
 

Defender

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Matchups are good to discuss, but it's a bit...disorganized as it is.
I've seen some other threads that focus on one other character for an amount of time and post the conclusions in the OP after that time is up. I think it could help. What do y'all think?
That sounds like a good idea. I guess I was just impatient to give my two cence about the characters that I knew best.

So, if everyone is of the same mind as we are, who should we discuss right now and for how long should we discuss it?
 

Kiwikomix

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I would say maybe three or four days at a time... a week just ends up dragging on, and it can be adjusted if there's not enough time to discuss the character fully.
If a discussion is to be started, I suggest we start with Game and Watch. We might get some G-Dub mainers in here but please, try to prevent a flame war :)
 

DarkLeviathan89

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If we're starting with G&W, here's some quick input. Insanely strong smashes, high priority aerials, down throw combo, great recovery. I've heard that G&W has the potential to be one of the top five characters. At least his down B is useless against Yoshi, but it's still hard to get past all his high priority attacks. Eggs seem to help as his projectile, the food, don't seem to go that far, but I don't recall if they can cancel out the eggs or anything. No score for me because I only face one G&W and I have no idea how "good" he is, but he's definitely a tough opponent for Yoshi IMO.
 
D

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Oky so ive gotten lots of G-dub experience lately. Firstly im gonna say its 7-3 (i personally think its 6-4, but from the perspective of someone readin this, it will look worse). Ok i think shiri might have told me this a while ago, but anyways, yoshi cant take G&W head on. He outranges, outprioritizes, and plainly beats yoshi fairly badly. So what u hafta do is run away alot of his atttacks. Cowardly i know, but u cant really take on his bair directly (not like anybody else can either), so run away and chuck an egg. His fair is pivotgrabbable, his nair is freaking gay and it has deceptively large range so just know that the water outside of the fishbowl is a hitbox. The key against the key is to punish its landing RIGHT as he lands, since it has barely any lag and if u dont punish him right away u get dtilted. As usual, matchup sounds bad, just try and run away, throw tons of eggs, punish reckless dairs if u can. Wow while writing this i wonder how i beat g-dubs, the matchup sounds so hard =P
 

biohazard930

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I would say maybe three or four days at a time... a week just ends up dragging on, and it can be adjusted if there's not enough time to discuss the character fully.
If a discussion is to be started, I suggest we start with Game and Watch. We might get some G-Dub mainers in here but please, try to prevent a flame war :)
You know, I was thinking it might actually be a good idea to invite a main or two of the character currently under analysis to give some additional insight from the other side of the token. However, I, personaly, would not know who to contact.
 

Kiwikomix

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You know, I was thinking it might actually be a good idea to invite a main or two of the character currently under analysis to give some additional insight from the other side of the token. However, I, personaly, would not know who to contact.
I don't personally know of many G-Dub mains, I suppose I could attack their boards and ask them what they think of the matchup.
 

cutter

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Just to let you guys know, the Bucket is not completely useless. The stars from Yoshi's Down B are absorbable and provide quite a powerful charge should G&W get 3. Situational, I know, but something to keep in mind.

Your best bet to having a shot of winning this matchup is throwing LOTS of eggs and constantly running away. You can't really beat the Turtle (then again, few characters can claim to consistently challenge the Turtle) or most of his other moves.

Also try your hardest to not get blasted far off stage. G&W has VERY good offstage pursuit that can lead to easy gimps after you've used your second jump.

Overall, I think this matchup is a 7-3 in favor of G&W.
 

Kiwikomix

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All right, here's what the G-Dub boards think of the matchup.

Alright. Here's why I think G&W has a large advantage over Yoshi:
- G&W's aerials are by far superior to Yoshi's due to lingering disjointed hitboxes (Nair, Fair), sheer priority (Dair, Bair), and stalling capabilites (Uair).
- G&W's Uair shuts down Yoshi's Down B. To make matters worse, the stars are absorbable into the bucket.
- If Yoshi gets knocked off the stage, he's pretty much doomed. G&W has incredible pursuit offscreen with his Fairs and Up B being able to easily come back from being magnified on most stages. Once Yoshi uses up his 2nd jump (thus the SA frames wear off) you just do a simple Fair or Up B for a very easy gimp.
- Yoshi struggles against the turtle.
The only thing I can see Yoshi giving G&W some problems is the egg throwing, but G&W's Bair, Dair, and Chef can cancel out the eggs.
-Yoshi's Uair beats G&W's Dair
-Uair is ineffective because of Yoshi's aerial movement, and it barely affects the down B at all
-Absorbing stars is a bad idea
G&W definitely has the advantage because of his ease of killing versus Yoshi's lackluster killing game and aerial superiority (for the most part), but it isn't a huge one. The egg game is very hard to deal with by using the aerials.
The general concensus is that it's 7-3 G-Dub's favor.

Next, I'd like to see your opinions on the Samus-Yoshi matchup. Here's my take, based off just a few quick experiences:
Yoshi usually has complete control over the air. However, he occasionally has trouble getting through her fair and u-smash. Missiles are no problem as a bair (possibly nair as well) will cancel them out. Yoshi's egg-spamming is extremely effective in this match, as Samus will take some time approaching Yoshi and she is a large target. Her lightness makes her fairly difficult to edgeguard since she can airdodge almost infinitely.

Thoughts?
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Samus still has pseudo-CC and a good tilt game to punish predictable rolls and dodges.

Her dash attack ***** and her up air can still be the only move she needs to fight Yoshi if she chooses. Not only that, Yoshi can't reflect projectiles anymore, making missile spam more available, regardless of how much effectiveness missiles have lost in this game. Jab is amazing and Samus autocancels all of her aerials in an almost criminally easy fashion, her down air still being her goto move off the stage.

All that said, it might seem like I'm calling this a one-sided matchup, but there are a few key things Samus is missing here which help tip the scales back. First, no neutral air. Her neutral is slow and the knockback is pitifully low, it's almost sad, really. Samus' neutral air now has little to no strategic value in this matchup. Something less severe, her back air doesn't have that wicked angle that it used to in Melee (which was even more wicked in 64...man, what a good move that was in 64), so it has less viability in edgeguarding or aerial clashes, especially with a fidgety aerial character like Yoshi. There are three major hits Samus has taken that are more severe than the two listed above. First, gimped forward smash. Probably the #2 move Yoshi had trouble dealing with in Melee in this matchup, the range, power, and speed, did not transfer over well, and Yoshi loves it. Second, modified downsmash. I just wanna say one thing.

HALLELUJAH!

While I'm a huge Samus fan, I have to say that her downsmash deserved what it got because gosh darnit, it was plum near unfair how good it was, especially in this matchup, in Melee. Yoshi does not need to fear awkward aerial and off-stage knockback after getting hit by stray downsmashes anymore. What a relief. Finally, Samus' playstyle has changed, through no fault of her own (or so it seems), to that of a much more gimmicky character rather than the solid one she was in Melee (different games, I know, but the new tournament style doesn't suit her character, I don't think). I think the gimmicky nature of the new missile spamming and grapple canceling make her much more vulnerable than if she were to simply walk, jab, and forward tilt like she did in Melee (which still works, by the way). People have pseudo-CC still but hey, that's what her up tilt is for.

All in all, playing both characters extensively in tournament, I give this matchup a heavy nod in Yoshi's favor. Not a counter, but darn well what I (or any of us) could have hoped for after having dealt with this bull**** matchup for the past four years in Melee.
 

Kiwikomix

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So her options from Melee were limited where Yoshi's were enhanced, I see.
Well, would this be in the 6-4 or 7-3 Yoshi advantage area? Or is it even?
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: I'm tempted to give it a 9-1 just because nobody goes past 7-3 in these lists and charts.

At any rate, I don't do numbers. Someone else with experience can give you a ratio; all I can provide is my thoughts verbally on the nuances of the matchup. Ratios are out of my league, haha.
 

Kiwikomix

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I'll just put it at an advantage until I can figure out more.
Anyway, since you're so excited to get a worse ratio, I say we do Meta-Knight next.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Touché.

People keep saying the CG makes this matchup less bad and adds on damage, but all it really does is take Meta Knight to the edge and tack on 20%. I mean, 20% is better than none, but the chain doesn't make this matchup any better for Yoshi, really. Yoshi's shield beats downsmash and down tilt pretty handily and dash grab, while effective, is easy to see coming from standard Meta Knight players. Meta Knight can pretty much do whatever he wants, it's almost like he's the new Sheik, but Yoshi should be okay if he plays like the old Yoshi--just don't tilt or smash and you should be fine. If you manage to get Meta Knight off the stage, egg like your little dino life depends on it to rack up that percent. It's all about getting Meta Knight to 100% and finishing him off out of a throw or predicted air dodge. Eggs while he is on the stage are worthless. Egg Roll off or near the edge can get you out of a spacing jam, however.

Definitely Yoshi's worst match, but certainly not unwinnable. I'd give it a 3 - 349278.

P.S. - Do not play punish games with Meta Knight. It does not work.
 
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Uhh i hate to strongly disagree but i strongly disagree haha. Cgs make this matchups a whole lot easier for yoshi, cuz once they are grabbed, they are in your control to move them where you wish. Obviously, you will usually want to cg all the way, but u can mix it up, maybe dthrow and then if they try to fair you or dair you on the way down, u pivot grab and cg some more. While hes grounded eggs usually dont help, but hes alot slower in the air and eggs can help put pressure on him. I would dissagree on the tilt comment, dtilt is good and ftilt is good after a bair, cuz MK is surprisingly easy to "combo". Pretty much in the matchup tho you kinda spam pivot grabs for your life and hope u get him =P Dtilt gimps yoshis recovery really badly, its awful. Spacing bairs when hes out of reach is good, he doesnt have a projectile and bairs are pretty scary =P Cgs to usmash for the kill, save your usmash for the kill cuz u want him dead. I think its a little bit in MKs favor, maybe 4-6, but its managable. If MK wasnt so gay of a character, yoshi would be at an advantage. Id say...mmm maybe falco or wolf is worse.

Also, jumping off and trying to edgeguard mk is fun, especially when u get killed at 0% xD
 
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