Moves and Matchups Guide: Submissions Thread

Please read this before submitting information.

Information submitted improperly will be included at my discretion.

All information submitted (except quotes) will be reworded at my discretion; if you don't like how it came out, PM me.

You must submit information for the guide in this thread. I will most likely ignore submissions in the guide thread.

The guide thread that this thread corresponds to can be found here .

You may currently submit information for any section. Cheers!


I'm making a new matchups thread because the old one is quite dated and isn't in a very convenient format, and could use a lot more information, so here is how this one is going to go:

I'll put in character portraits later for more ease of navigation.

To keep the thread clean, all credits will be at the end of each point as a number in brackets; the names of the people who contributed are at the end of the guide next to their number.

The general rule for submission is that it must look as closely as possible to the format of the guide (except for color, size and bolds/italics) so that I can add things easily.

If you disagree with a character's section placement just put whichever section you think it should be in instead of the current one.

If you are unsure about something just put a question mark ("?") by it (whether you have a problem you don't know how to solve or a solution that is not yet proven).

If you have anything to submit that you feel should be in the guide but doesn't fit (including new sections or format changes) go for it.

An example submission is in the second post.

{General Move Usage}

Other

> Jabs
++ Use against spot-dodgers
- Don't use the infinite jabs unless they are too far away for a jab-jab-grab


{Very Hard Matchups}

Snake

Difficulties

-- Strong tilts make him virtually unapproachable
+ ?

-- Long-distance dash attack with strong U-smash
+ ?

-- Powerful aerials that outrange Falcon's
+ Up-B when below?
+ Aerial Falcon Kick to the side when above?

Wogrim said:

{General Move Usage}

{Very Hard Matchups}

Snake

Difficulties

-- Strong tilts make him virtually unapproachable
+ Shield grab?
+ Bait and punish

-- Long-distance dash attack with strong U-smash
+ Shield grab the dash attack. Not sure about the DAC Usmash.

-- Powerful aerials that outrange Falcon's
+ Up-B when below?
+ Aerial Falcon Kick to the side when above?
+ Falcon's U-air outranges Snake's Dair, correct?

--Grenades make it hard to move.
+ Throw them back
+ Always be aware of them. You may have to restrict your mobility a bit, but it's worth not taking 20% out of nowhere.
+ Get in Snake's face (this could be dangerous due to those nasty tilts)

Click to expand...

I have some experience versus a decent Snake, so I added some stuff. I face a Metaknight on a very consistent basis, so I may write some stuff up about him.

Also, I was considering writing a little setup guide for setting up knees, uairs, and bairs (which percents with certain DIs/Airdodges/double jumping).

Doggalina said:

I have some experience versus a decent Snake, so I added some stuff. I face a Metaknight on a very consistent basis, so I may write some stuff up about him.

Also, I was considering writing a little setup guide for setting up knees, uairs, and bairs (which percents with certain DIs/Airdodges/double jumping).

Click to expand...

Cool thanks for the support. I'll have the actual guide thread up tonight, but since I have only played a few characters enough with Falcon to make a Match-up guide for them (Peach, Ness, Diddy-- none of which are in the very hard matchup category), this guide is going to be mostly a compilation of the opinions of anyone who wants to contribute.

Edit: Oh and you can just quote the example and modify it if you want like you did, but you don't need to, and you don't need to color it.

Edit2: Setup guide sounds pretty cool, I'll put a link to it in my guide (or maybe a link in each of the uair, knee, and bair sections). If anyone else has a thread they think I should link in the guide as a sort of "extended help" link let me know (with "{ATTN: Wogrim}" would be nice).

Guide thread updated at this point in time. Need contributors!

The best advice I can offer against metaknight players is to use raptor boost to counter his approaches. It actually out prioritizes a lot of meta knights moves, and it sets him up to take more hits from uairs

u have to wait for him to approach, dont go in swinging like a bat out of hell, wait for him to make a mistake then pursue.

mk players are very aggressive, but they are also VERY PREDICTABLE Take advantage of this by using good dodges, powershields and rolls, and punishing their poor approaches. most mks approach with the fairs or the shuttle loop or the tornado, and raptor boost works pretty well against them. dont try to beat a mks glide-air, you will fail. instead, shield and space yourself. this has to be a hit and run matchup. shuttle loops are spammed pretty often and they are powerful, put if you stay on the move and retain your patience and spacing, then there is nothing they can really do.

use mindgames as well

edit: good thread Wogrim. Bout time some ppl got active on falcon boards. I too am going to start being more active around here.


edit 2: use falcon kicks alot to counter tornado spammers. use your tilts to stop their ground advances/dashes. he has deceptive range, so be careful

Marth

Difficulties

-- Better Range

+ How to solve it:
Fight super defensively. As a a Falcon player, your spacing has to be perfect when fighting Marth. This makes for a very difficult match-up if the Marth knows what they are doing. From what I can tell, Marth is a pretty aggressive character, so as Falcon, you just need to stay on your toes, try to read his moves, and strike from the safest possible distance. I suggest, uair, u-tilt, d-tilt, and f-tilt.

Shotty on Pikmin & Olimar; Reserved as of now, working on post.

talkingbeatles said:

Difficulties

-- Better Range

+ How to solve it:
Fight super defensively. As a a Falcon player, your spacing has to be perfect when fighting Marth. This makes for a very difficult match-up if the Marth knows what they are doing. From what I can tell, Marth is a pretty aggressive character, so as Falcon, you just need to stay on your toes, try to read his moves, and strike from the safest possible distance. I suggest, uair, u-tilt, d-tilt, and f-tilt.

Click to expand...

hope you dont mind im just going to add onto this here

you will have to play defensivly but not super defenivly thats what they want since marth gets extra dmg with his tip the safest distance seems to be when your close to him marths grabs suck and his jab well...isnt great.

marth seems to be the weakest when he is recovering since he doesnt have alot of options there but his UP B can auto snap the ledge so a falling knee seems to be working wonders for me but just knock him back on a mid to low angle and you got him
i'd like to add the Jab to the list of moves to use and grabs for or less the ones that don't knock him where he can get away f throw maybe? falcon punch if your close and he lands on the stage after UP B he has just enogh lag time to use this! anyways im done now hope it helps good thread btw

Guys it's nice that you're contributing, but based on the amount of input we need for a full guide I have to ask you to reformat your info accordingly or put "{Quotes}" in front of it if you just want me to quote it, but please do that only if it is too complicated to reformat into simple solutions. For bullet points for how to solve a difficulty, you're not being concise enough if it is more than 2 lines. If there are alternate ways to solve it, put them in separate bullet points.

Some input on his moves:

> Bair
++ Great knockback, especially when sweetspotted.
++ Stays out long. Kinda like a sex kick
++ More reliable at KOing than the knee, although it isn't as strong
- Hard to hit grounded opponents with it, especially short ones.

> FSmash/DSmash
- Ending lag leaves you open

> Dtilt
++ Can pop opponents up. This can be followed with an aerial (depending on their DI) such as nair
++ Can be used for edgeguard
- Utilt is superior for edgeguarding

> Utilt
- Not spammable.
- Make sure you're going to hit with it because the ending lag leaves you open to punishment.

> Dair
++ Can "combo" into the knee (depending on DI) (to be tested further)
- Easily shieldgrabbed

> Falcon Dive (up b)
++ Can be used to stagespike (very sexy).
++ You can grab people who are hanging on the ledge (assuming they've run out of invincibility frames) and possibly get a (sexy) stagespike.

Martha:

Difficulty: ridiculously hard if you don't know what your doing

Problems: can be used like in melee, outranges you, easily can counter Falcon punches and knee's, Nair and Fair

Solutions: proper timing, that's all you need to master, be defensive and unpredictable

Strategies: well the above info I don't think is very helpful but I face Martha on a daily basis, she likes to approach differently so I'll go through the phases of attack

1 (Fair) she see's Falcon and imediatly starts up the Fair's (usually two auto cancelled)the thing is that it has lag time to it now so when her first Fair comes out use overB Raptor boost, then jump up for a quick Uair. *note after a couple of these she may want to Dair you to counter, so stay alert, and try to mix up your double jump timings*. After she'll only do one Fair at a lower height to avoid being raptor countered, at this point shield grabbing comes into play. The last tactic for the Fair approaches is a backward momentum Fair, she's run toward you do a Fair but DI backwards, to avoid being shield grabbed. this is really tough to deal with, but it is counter-able remember she needs enough time to DI backwards to you should in that case do a spot-dodge then Falcon kick , as soon as it hits run and wait. If edge-guarding with Fair there isn't much you can do, if above the stages closest ground point, airdodge no questions, o.k? just do it, if below the stage you can't AD because you won't be able to recover, at the point space (in air) a Nair that should stage spike her, yes it is possible.

2 (Nair) ****it I hate this move it totally cripples all of Falcon's air game so staying on ground is a wise choice, this move is strong has range and ridiculous speed, however it's own speed is it's own enemy, it comes out so fast it's spotdodge-able, but you have to totally predict it so it may not be the safest route, however Dtilt will hit because when crouching Nair won't hit, and at the end of it's animation you can hit the attack button to do a Dtilt. When the enemy is edge guarding with Nair, FF and counter with Falcon dive.

3 (Bair) this is like a last resort move for Martha's aerial approach they will SH bide their time until your shield drops then use Bair, only way around this is to roll away, not much you can do, but when she tries it again an Usmash is the ticket to victory as it comes out fast.

4 (dancing blades) well the idiot who made dancing blades faster must have been the one to make Snakes Utilt and Ftilt, because it's cheap as hell. Martha likes to use this move a lot especially in the direction down because the last one is an excellent shield breaker, however there's a devestating Flaw to this move, it can't be stoppoed quickly and moves forward, so you wanna know how to stop this move? it's as easy as anticipating the first slash rolling backwards and Falcon Punching. It may seem that it won't work but it really does, I hit it all the time on Martha, try it yourself get a buddy to do Dancing blades roll the way she's swinging the blade then Falcon Punch

Video's:

none for now

K the guide is updated, but please guys formatting is important to getting it running as quickly as possible. Try to make your posts look like Doggalina's, he has it done properly. And please comment in the guide to bump it, 28 views is pitiful....

Put Pikachu in for "Very Hard." You really don't have to write too much on that one because he has a 0-80% IN PLACE d-throw chaingrab, a spammy projectile, and very high priority. If you get grabbed, prepare for a vastly unfair match unless the person you're fighting doesn't like teh grabz. (Sorry about the format, I haven't played any good pikachus but that's just logic as far as I can tell)

ANYWAY

Here's what I think of THE CAP'S moves:

>Jab
+ Punishes spotdodgers
++ Jab-Jab-Grab combo is legitimate
+ Infinite jab obnoxiously destroys certain projectiles
- Infinte jab leaves C. Falcon open

>Nair
++ Legitmate combo into jab when first hit is fastfalled. This is this move's main use.
- Very poor priority so makes a bad choice for an aerial assault against a wary opponent

>Uair
++ Use as your main air move to rack up damage and retaliate - comes out fast and hits all around with little lag
+ Can used shff'd before hitting the ground as a quick surprise attack - at low percentages this combos into a grab
++ Use off the edge as a gimp to kill opponents
+ Great when ledgehopped because of good range and very little lag

>Bair
+ Use to kill at high percentages or just to hit people behind you. Sticks out like a sex kick so you don't have to necessarily hit your opponent with the beginning of the move.

>Dair
+ Autocancel this move.
++ Autocancelled d-air against certain characters can combo into the Knee at certain percents. Otherwise it almost always combos into u-air or a jab combo at low percents.
+ A nice spike if you hit with the feet. Hitting with Falcon's body can kill the opponent at surprisingly low percents, so it doesn't hurt to try.
- Bad windup and bad lag if you don't autocancel. Opponents can simply hit you in the air. After autocancelling, there is a lull in the move where Falcon has no hitboxes and can simply just be attacked. Being predictable with this move is very dangerous.
- Most of the time you simply want to avoid being above the opponent, as dair lags when you hit the ground and they can shieldgrab.

>Fair (THE KNEE)
+ Hit people jumping from the ledge or othewise (usually unwary aerial attackers) for a 80%+ kill move. Time it and hit with the tip of Falcon's knee.
+ Possible to use autocancelled and sweetspotted against taller opponents such as Samus.
+ Can be ledgehopped against people next to the ledge (I have never missed a sweetspot this way, but it's shieldgrabbable)
+ Great shield pushback... but due to the foward momentum you usually have, you usually go along with them and end up getting punished...
- Very predictable, easy to shield grab, and hard to hit against short or mobile opponents. Do not spam this move because it has a laggy landing that makes it one of Falcon's most punishable moves.

>Ftilt
+ A nice poking move.
- Laggy ending. Usually not worth it.

>Dtilt
+ Moderate speed with some nice range.
- Laggy ending. Opponents can simply jump over it.

>Utilt
+ Deceptive range, rather fast. killing knockback at 140%+ when you just can't seem to kill your opponent. Seems to have best knockback at the farthest end of the attack.
+ Doesn't kill, but can get people off the edge.
+ Can hit people on platforms above you.
- Kind of slow to start. Like all tilts, easily punishable. Still, the deceptive range makes this a viable desperation killmove.

>Fsmash
+ Stutter-step this move for increased range. Can be used to kill at 120%+ on most characters.
+ Falcon pulls back slightly before use.
- Laggy ending, punishable.

>Dsmash
+ More range than normal F-smash and doesn't last as long. Highest knockback of all of C. Falcon's smashes and kills most people at 100%+. Generic ground killing move when fresh.
+ Hits on both sides. Punish (ledge)rollers.
+ Great shield pushback.
++++ Captain Falcon lifts his leg up to use this move, meaning that certain character's dsmashes will miss at a closer range than they should. (This happened to me when I was playing as Falco against my brother. I haven't bothered to replicate this so I don't know if it's true but when it happened it was hilarious)
- Less laggy ending, but still laggy ending.

>Usmash
+ Hits twice. Dash and use sliding upsmash to reach the opponent already attacking. Deals a little over twenty damage so use to take an opponent off guard.
- Takes a long time to kill off the top with, so don't expect to.

>Falcon Punch (B)
+ Reverse falcon punch causes crazy mindgames. 360 falcon punch!!!!
+ Spam during free-for-alls. You'll hit SOMEONE.
+ If you somehow manage to break your opponent's shield...
- Lag before and after. Most of the time you'll be spotdodged, guarded, or hit before the move terminates. Unless your opponent is far away or your opponent has used their up+B and is falling in front of you, this move is not a good idea to use.

>Raptor Boost (Side-B)
+ Knocks people into the air. Follow up with a u-air (possibly Up+B if you're feeling adventurous) or punish an airdodge.
+ Can hit people at start of jump.
+ When used in the air very close to the ground (ledgehopped usually) you will hit them and land on the ground immediately, lowering lag.
+ Use to edgehog. Also an awesome spike if you can hit with it.
+ Less laggy as a recovery move from the side than Up+B.
- Easy edgeguarded and has poor range.
- Very predictable and has very low priority. Do not spam this move.
- Hitting a grounded opponent when used aerially will throw them into an air at an arc that coincides with yours perfectly, allowing them to Fair you into the face or grab due to the aerial version's lag when it hits.
- Although some characters might seem like they can't shieldgrab this move, all they have to do is move forward slightly.
- Do not use this towards the edge when on the stage and near the edge. EVER.

>Falcon Kick (Down-B)
+ Very fast with some starting time. Great for catching opponents off guard.
+ Good knockback when used in the air, and often more reliable than D-air to counterattack aerial attackers from below.
++++++ Duck and yell "FALCON KICK" in real life. Punish spotdodge with real falcon kick.
- Don't use so you land directly behind them, as it has lag after it and can easily be punished.
- Aerial version has bad lag. Again, very easily punished.
- Never use off the stage or to recover. You will die. Always assume that if you're off the ledge, the angle is so steep that it will kill you.
- Don't spam this move because it gets very predictable very fast.

>Falcon Dive (Up+B)
+ Great damage for a throw (19% or something!). Use out of shield or as a throw substitute mixup to catch opponent off guard and send them off the edge. Keep in mind the deceptive range and use it to its maximum!
+ Use backwards and land on ledge pressing back to achieve Falcon's Ultra-Useless SUPERWAVEDASH, which will get you away from a ledgeguarding opponent while landing.
+ Awesome to kill off the ledge with and keeps edgeguarders away. Use and cross fingers for grab superarmor.
- Easy to kill yourself off the ledge with when attempting to kill off the ledge.
- Move's horizontal movement is heavily dependent on horizontal movement, and can kill you if you've forgotten this while moved to a standstill.
- Easily edgeguarded when knocked far off the edge. Nothing you can do about this, but still.
- If used as a substitute throw, INCREDIBLY punishable if you miss, so don't spam. But still worth it.

>Grab
+ Almost instantaneous, unblockable attack. Run, hold shield for a little bit and hit grab to do a sliding standing grab.
+ Don't forget to press A once or twice to tack on damage at higher percents!

>D-throw
+ Can lead into u-airs OR jab combo if opponent airdodges. Sometimes even Falcon Kick. Some opponents like Ganondorf have great combobreaking aerials. Keep distance and try to punish lag if they use these.
- Some characters don't have lag after these moves. Forget about them.

>U-throw
+ Sends opponent upward, similar to Raptor Boost. Possibly useful if there is a platform above you and your opponent expects a D-throw.
- Very laggy, so don't expect many followups.

>F-throw
+ Chaingrab at lower percents to ~30% on heavy characters such as Bowser. Not enough to give you any sort of real edge, but hey, Captain needs all the help he can get, okay!?
+ Great for getting opponent off the edge, because it has the highest knockback out of all Falcon's throws. Follow with edgeguard/gimp/ledge punish.
+ Jab-jab-grab lets you pretend this is where all the knockback from the gentleman combo went.

>B-throw
+ Sends opponents backward. Slightly less knockback than F-throw, but otherwise similar.
- Laggier than F-throw. Along with U-throw, not recommended if you have other options.


'kay that's all I have to say. I'm not incredibly good as Falcon, but that's about all I've learned as him.

I have this feeling that there isn't going to be an "easy matchup" and that most of the matchups will be "very hard."

EDIT: I looked in the character match up chart, and it would appear that Falcon now has an advantage over Dorf and Squirtle. That must be new.

Doggalina said:

I have this feeling that there isn't going to be an "easy matchup" and that most of the matchups will be "very hard."

EDIT: I looked in the character match up chart, and it would appear that Falcon now has an advantage over Dorf and Squirtle. That must be new.

Click to expand...

According to the matchup chart we have 7 very hard matchups, 26 hard matchups, 4 even matchups (I'm counting a Falcon ditto as an even matchup), 2 easy matchups, and no very easy matchups. However, if we are able to analyze our enemies well, they will become easier (although they will become harder when they discover new techniques and combos), so I have left open the possibility for change.

Radiation said:

Put Pikachu in for "Very Hard." You really don't have to write too much on that one because he has a 0-80% IN PLACE d-throw chaingrab, a spammy projectile, and very high priority. If you get grabbed, prepare for a vastly unfair match unless the person you're fighting doesn't like teh grabz. (Sorry about the format, I haven't played any good pikachus but that's just logic as far as I can tell)

Click to expand...

I'm not going to move any characters around until we have more information and input.
And you don't need to post a hundred things at once....



I'm not going to open up submissions on all the hard matchups at once (I'd get overwhelmed with most of them having sparse information that won't really help us that much) so I am taking suggestions on who the next FIVE characters to open submissions for will be. To make the guide as useful as possible, please give input as to which characters you play the most or have most trouble with (in the hard category only).
I'm leaning towards Pikachu, Kirby, Zelda, Lucas, and Diddy, based on who I've played the most recently.
Since we still have no submissions on Olimar, Toon Link, Wario, and Game and Watch, the next 5 aren't going to open up for at least a couple of days.

Also, for the videos you don't have to submit videos you are in, and the submitter does not get credit for submitting the videos. The players' names (if known) will be in the title of the video (and editor, if applicable), but credit WILL be given to useful commentary (pointing out good ways to fight a character is generally what I'm looking for). I'd have put in some commentary on videos in the video thread but I don't have the time to sift through them all (I've been trying to help on Doggalina's kill move data thread and play the game too).

I've reformatted the guide thread so that it looks way better, and the table of contents is actually made of links for the bracketed parts (I made them link to the different posts, which is why theres so many posts now; hope the mods don't hate me). Isn't that sweet?
Anyways sorry Radiation I havn't put your stuff in yet (it's a bit intimidating lol).
And we still need decent info on at least two of G&W, Olimar, TL, Wario before I open up to more characters.

After watching some videos (like this, this, and this), it's apparent that Falcon's jab is amazing and should be combined with everything.

Doggalina said:

After watching some videos (like this, this, and this), it's apparent that Falcon's jab is amazing and should be combined with everything.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure how well that stuff will work against a very alert opponent though. Jab-Jab-Grab to me sometimes feels slow enough that an opponent could squeeze a nair or fair in before the grab, but maybe I just need better timing.

Snake
> Grenades make it hard to move
++ Throw them back (elaborated on below)
++ Run past them. You are the second fastest character in the game, after all!

Bad Stages
> Battlefield
++ Ew. Those platforms make it even easier for him to hit you with his utilt, as if he needed any help.

Good Stages
> Final Destination (????)
++ This is just from personal experience, but the lack of platforms saves you from some Utilt grief. It also lets you be very mobile.
++ The ledge gimps his recovery easier than it gimps yours.

On grenades:
I just fought a Snake who loved his grenades and all his tricks. Well, my strategy was simple: Run, dash attack to pick them up, then either throw them at him or in the air. However, he did do his fancy "I am the One" Grenade Strip a few times, but it worked. I kept in his face (although out of tilt range) and played smart. I tried to fake him out, grab him, do some damage, retreat, repeat. I didn't win (it was my 4th time ever against a Snake), but I got him to 1 stock, 165% and 1 stock, ~35%.

Oh, and jab-jab-grab worked...WELL.

And I'm going to look into a surprise Falcon Dive while he's in his helicopter. This Snake tended to airdodge my approaches when he was recovery (and above), so I'm going to try some up B.

Guide Updated... Yay!

I play a MK player on at least a weekly basis.

Meta Knight
> He has high-priority, multihit moves (rapid A, side B, neutral B)
++ Falcon Kick breaks through all of them. USE IT.
++ This thread has an illustration of the tornados hitbox and has a list of ALL moves that break through it.

> His horizontal recovery is ridiculous (he has multiple jumps, can glide, and can use all 4 of his B moves to recover)
++ Optimally, kill him off the top (Up Smash works well)
++ You can use Falcon's great off the stage game, but it's risky, due to Meta's ridiculous aerial mobility and that pesky shuttleloop.

The guide has been going really slowly so I've decided to open up submissions on a sizeable chunk of the Hard Matchups:
I havn't put any of my own opinions in on these characters yet but I chose them because I've had several games with each of them and do have some information to put forth. I'll lay it all down tommorrow.

i dont really know much about all of them so this is alll i got

4.1 Zelda -zelda loves dins fire when your far away thats all that gunna happen as an approach for that i would try SHADing alot of people say her upsmash is godly and hits in front of her for everytime here finger reachs the right side of her and appreantly it does it on both sides >.>


4.3 Pikachu-there dsmash addicts from what i can tell good priorty,deal good dmg (etc)
dont be afraid to be a lil sheild happy dont really know a way to deal with him




4.8 Sonic- just be on your toes your gunna have to make sure you kill him or he will come with homing attack spinshot and all his other tricks up his sleeve to deal with him just get him everytime he screws up and chase him your the second fastest kill him to regain your honor just keep the preassure on him he cant deal with it(i play sonic i am all mighty XD)
4.9 Falco-has a chain grab nuff said there problems,SHDL,chaingrab,
well there is no true way other then to say dont get grabbed but thats just anoying and useless just watch your spacing dont let him get to far away and gimp that fool is recovory is garabage

Snake is not a "very hard" matchup.
Pikachu is a "very hard" matchup.
Falco is a "very hard" matchup.

Since there are no real easy matchups or very easy matchups for Falcon, I think it would be better to just have like 4 subsets of hard matchups. For example:

Extremely Hard
Very Hard
Moderately Winnable
Very Winnable (but not a gimme of course)

Just an idea. That way we can not just group every character into one of two groups. lol

Falco

Difficulties

-- Chaingrabbing
+ Um... don't get grabbed?

-- Powerful Smashes
+ His Fsmash hits on both sides of him, but has some ending lag. Sidestep and punish. His Usmash can go crazy distances with snakedashing (or whatever it's called) and doesn't have much lag. Just try to avoid it. Dsmash has been nerfed since Melee, if I'm correct, so it's not as useful, but still watch out for it.

-- Laser Spam
+ Jump over it. He'll probably SH the laser, but it's better to take 3-6% than 20+% just walking.

Bad Stages

> FD
--No platforms= Easy CGs and lasers
+ Get him below the lips, if you can. Since his recovery is sucky, he can't get back if he's far enough down. Remember to edgeguard, though.

> Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
-- Has a platform, but since it tilts, its usefulness is much less than it would be without that.
+ I think you can Falcon Kick straight ahead when the platform is tilted ( I'll check that out later). Use the ghost platforms as much as possible, but don't rely on them.

Good Stages

> Battlefield
++ The platforms here naturally help Falcon. Plus, you can use them to avoid lasers, and its not long enough for a good CG. Then you just have to worry about his aerials, which are OK. It also has some lips, but not as protruding as the ones on FD.

> Luigi's Mansion
++ Pillars can disrupt laser fire. There being 3 levels to the house also helps. Drop down attacks are must. When the house is gone, play it like FD. There are also lips here (to a degree)

Falco's my 2nd, so I know a thing or two.

KeyKid19 said:

Snake is not a "very hard" matchup.
Pikachu is a "very hard" matchup.
Falco is a "very hard" matchup.

Click to expand...

A submission for these would be good to back up your claims.

KeyKid19 said:

Since there are no real easy matchups or very easy matchups for Falcon, I think it would be better to just have like 4 subsets of hard matchups. For example:

Extremely Hard
Very Hard
Moderately Winnable
Very Winnable (but not a gimme of course)

Just an idea. That way we can not just group every character into one of two groups. lol

Click to expand...

Fair enough. Four seems a little low though, so I'm gonna make it 5 groups; I'll just call them 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1 for now (5 is the hardest). Let me know which characters you think should be in which groups. (everyone, not just Key)

I'll update the guide later tonight.

Kirby

Difficulties:

1. Kirby's inhale will ruin every ground based approach you have (Falcon kick, Raptor Boost, Dash Attack, etc.)

Solution: Approach from the air

2. Kirbycides.

Solution: Try to avoid fighting off the stage (As in, above nothing but the bottom of the screen) whenever possible.

3. Kirby is so light and floaty, that it's hard to set up the Knee for a KO.

Solution: Use other KO moves.


Good Stages:

Yoshi's Island: Kirby can't do his "Inhale, jump off the stage, and spit you out under the stage" strategy here.

Smashville: It's a small stage, perfect for keeping the pressure on Kirby.

Bad Stages:

Battlefield: Kirby can abuse those platforms alot more than you can.

Norfair: Again, platform abuse.



I'd put Kirby in group 4.

Guide updated (except I'm not renaming the sections until I have enough input as to which characters belong in which section-- 1 through 5, 5 is the hardest). It's starting to look like a real guide now .

Let me copy and paste a lengthy post I made in the Character Matchup Thread a while back. It concerns Pika and Snake but also some other character. Some of my comments are in reference to the chart but the jist of the idea can easily be discerned. Anytime I say "Big X" or "Small X", I am referring to the difficulty thing that the thread uses. In my opinion, a good conversion from that thread to this thread would be a Big X is a high 4 - 5, a Small X is a 3 - low 4, and a ~ would be like 1 - 2. I hope that made sense.

"I think that Falcon vs. Samus is equal enough to merit a ~. Projectiles are very slow so the advantage isn't very much in comparison to other projectile users vs. Falcon. Samus is floatier than most her size imo so easier to juggle than most (which is one thing Falcon's decent at, Uair is a beast move). Doesn't have a distinct priority advantage over Falcon. Slow, so easy to chase. Moves are almost equally laggy. Same lack of reliable kill moves (Falcon might actually have Samus beat in this area). Samus doesn't really have a reach advantage over Falcon. Falcon's AAA combo beats Samus' AA combo imo (you can get 17% easy with Falcon's without getting punished, plus you can combo into AAA combo with Nair). Falcon's UpB > Samus for both recovery and attacking.

Personally I think that Falcon vs. Pikachu deserves a big X (if you're Falcon) or a big check (if you're Pika). Pika has everything Falcon hates. Pika is small, has better reach, has a projectile, is hard to edgeguard (which is where Falcon really needs to excel to win matches), has spammable moves that can't reliably be punished or broken, has quick moves, and has good priority. In my opinion, Pikachu rivals Olimar for Falcon's second worst matchup behind Metaknight. Also one thing I almost forgot is that Pika's Dair outprioritizes Falcon's Uair a lot and is quick enough to break "combos", and without Uair Falcon is really nothing as a character.

I don't think that Snake is a terrible Falcon matchup. He's definitely not good, but I don't think he's quite worthy of the big X. Snake is REALLY easy to edgeguard with Falcon which is a big plus for Falcon in such matchups. Snake has good reach and good priority vs. Falcon, but Snake's projectiles are not that hard to evade with Falcon and as long as you don't walk over a mine, you're pretty safe when you're properly spaced. Falcon's approach with Falcon Kick is quicker than Snake's approaches, and it also does a nice chunk of damage. Snake's running A is good but Falcon's is only slightly worse. Plus Falcon has the speed to run away from Snake's running A spam, which is not the case in almost every other character. In the end, I would say that Snake is about as bad of a matchup for Falcon as R.O.B. is, and honestly taking into account the entire spectrum of Falcon's matchups in Brawl, that's not that bad. Falcon is at a disadvantage, but it's a much more manageable disadvantage than against his really bad matchups.

At the moment I would like to say that Falcon is also pretty much neutral (~) against both Bowser and DK, but I'm not going to really push for that until I look into the matchup more. I've yet to play a Bowser who was on the same level as me as a player overall, so I can't really make a good judgment on that one just yet. I'm definitely inclined to think that due to Bowser's size and lack of speed, he is a neutral for Falcon since generally big, slow characters are the easiest ones for Falcon. If anyone could inform me as to why Bowser is set as having an advantage over Falcon I'd like to hear it because I really don't know much about the matchup and would like to learn. As for DK, other than the stage-spike trick with his Fthrow, I don't see a distinct advantage there either. I've only played one DK who was on the same level as me, but honestly it was a pretty even matchup overall. Not counting our matches at Battlefield where he stage-spiked me a few times, I would say that neither one of us had a distinct character advantage over the other. That's why I'm inclined to say that DK is closer to neutral against Falcon than having an advantage (once again Falcon generally does best against the bigger, slower characters). However once again I'm not going to make a certain judgment yet since my experience with the matchup is so small."

KeyKid19 said:

Let me copy and paste a lengthy post I made in the Character Matchup Thread a while back. It concerns Pika and Snake but also some other character. Some of my comments are in reference to the chart but the jist of the idea can easily be discerned. Anytime I say "Big X" or "Small X", I am referring to the difficulty thing that the thread uses. In my opinion, a good conversion from that thread to this thread would be a Big X is a high 4 - 5, a Small X is a 3 - low 4, and a ~ would be like 1 - 2. I hope that made sense.

"I think that Falcon vs. Samus is equal enough to merit a ~. Projectiles are very slow so the advantage isn't very much in comparison to other projectile users vs. Falcon. Samus is floatier than most her size imo so easier to juggle than most (which is one thing Falcon's decent at, Uair is a beast move). Doesn't have a distinct priority advantage over Falcon. Slow, so easy to chase. Moves are almost equally laggy. Same lack of reliable kill moves (Falcon might actually have Samus beat in this area). Samus doesn't really have a reach advantage over Falcon. Falcon's AAA combo beats Samus' AA combo imo (you can get 17% easy with Falcon's without getting punished, plus you can combo into AAA combo with Nair). Falcon's UpB > Samus for both recovery and attacking.

Personally I think that Falcon vs. Pikachu deserves a big X (if you're Falcon) or a big check (if you're Pika). Pika has everything Falcon hates. Pika is small, has better reach, has a projectile, is hard to edgeguard (which is where Falcon really needs to excel to win matches), has spammable moves that can't reliably be punished or broken, has quick moves, and has good priority. In my opinion, Pikachu rivals Olimar for Falcon's second worst matchup behind Metaknight. Also one thing I almost forgot is that Pika's Dair outprioritizes Falcon's Uair a lot and is quick enough to break "combos", and without Uair Falcon is really nothing as a character.

I don't think that Snake is a terrible Falcon matchup. He's definitely not good, but I don't think he's quite worthy of the big X. Snake is REALLY easy to edgeguard with Falcon which is a big plus for Falcon in such matchups. Snake has good reach and good priority vs. Falcon, but Snake's projectiles are not that hard to evade with Falcon and as long as you don't walk over a mine, you're pretty safe when you're properly spaced. Falcon's approach with Falcon Kick is quicker than Snake's approaches, and it also does a nice chunk of damage. Snake's running A is good but Falcon's is only slightly worse. Plus Falcon has the speed to run away from Snake's running A spam, which is not the case in almost every other character. In the end, I would say that Snake is about as bad of a matchup for Falcon as R.O.B. is, and honestly taking into account the entire spectrum of Falcon's matchups in Brawl, that's not that bad. Falcon is at a disadvantage, but it's a much more manageable disadvantage than against his really bad matchups.

At the moment I would like to say that Falcon is also pretty much neutral (~) against both Bowser and DK, but I'm not going to really push for that until I look into the matchup more. I've yet to play a Bowser who was on the same level as me as a player overall, so I can't really make a good judgment on that one just yet. I'm definitely inclined to think that due to Bowser's size and lack of speed, he is a neutral for Falcon since generally big, slow characters are the easiest ones for Falcon. If anyone could inform me as to why Bowser is set as having an advantage over Falcon I'd like to hear it because I really don't know much about the matchup and would like to learn. As for DK, other than the stage-spike trick with his Fthrow, I don't see a distinct advantage there either. I've only played one DK who was on the same level as me, but honestly it was a pretty even matchup overall. Not counting our matches at Battlefield where he stage-spiked me a few times, I would say that neither one of us had a distinct character advantage over the other. That's why I'm inclined to say that DK is closer to neutral against Falcon than having an advantage (once again Falcon generally does best against the bigger, slower characters). However once again I'm not going to make a certain judgment yet since my experience with the matchup is so small."

Click to expand...

I'll put the Samus, Pikachu, and Snake stuff in the quotes section (Samus section probably won't exist for a bit cuz she's not that hard).
Snake is mostly considered very hard for his Dash Attack Canceled Usmash, his killer UTilt, and his strong FTilt. The only game I've had with a good Snake was a bit laggy so my shield and rolls and stuff weren't coming up fast enough, so he might not be as hard as I think. Are you calling Snake a 4 or a 3?
Bowser I think is considered to have an advantage over Falcon because of his Fire Breath, which destroys your ground approaches. And by destroys I mean he'll do 30-40% if you aren't careful....
I'll put the stage spike thing in the DK section when I make it, but since he's not that hard that won't be for a while.

Wogrim said:

I'll put the Samus, Pikachu, and Snake stuff in the quotes section (Samus section probably won't exist for a bit cuz she's not that hard).
Snake is mostly considered very hard for his Dash Attack Canceled Usmash, his killer UTilt, and his strong FTilt. The only game I've had with a good Snake was a bit laggy so my shield and rolls and stuff weren't coming up fast enough, so he might not be as hard as I think. Are you calling Snake a 4 or a 3?
Bowser I think is considered to have an advantage over Falcon because of his Fire Breath, which destroys your ground approaches. And by destroys I mean he'll do 30-40% if you aren't careful....
I'll put the stage spike thing in the DK section when I make it, but since he's not that hard that won't be for a while.

Click to expand...

Dash -> Usmash Cancel/Whatever technique really doesn't accomplish much for Snake in my opinion. I've yet to see it really do anything significant for Snake's game. Personally I like it when Snake players use it because it is so predictable and dodgeable (even punishable at times!). I'll take my chances against it instead of Snake's AAA combo and Tilts any day. Tilts are good as you say but that's nothing to base a 5/Big X on you know? Besides, Falcon's Tilts are definitely competitive with Snake's, so even though Snake's tilts are good, so are Falcon's so there's no real advantage one way or the other. Snake is also quite possibly the easiest character to edgeguard in the game for Falcon, which is huge. Maybe not the easiest but close to it definitely. Falcon has good weight and can survive Snake's attacks pretty well. The same can be said regarding Snake surviving Falcon's attacks. However, Snake's edgeguarding game fails in comparison to Falcon's (in a head to head matchup). Dair alone is enough for Falcon to ruin any Snake player's recovery game. If Falcon gets Snake off the edge, it should result in a kill more often than not.

Snake is also tall and laggy at times, both of which play into Falcon's hand well. Those two things alone make him less than a 5 rating right off the bat in my book. Falcon Kick ends all Dash Cancelled Usmash foolishness or whatever it's called, and can be relied upon in almost every other situation as well. Snake's aerials are not very good against Falcon, because Falcon's Uair pretty much demolishes everything he has. All of this combined with the edgeguardability and decent at best projectiles (Side B can be a good edgeguarder, don't get me wrong, but the otherwise it and the grenades don't do much imo) make Snake a high 3 in my book but I can see if people still think he's a 4. I at least know I have a good shot at winning against Snake, which I can't say about multiple other characters. Against Falcon, Metaknight is leagues of nightmares beyond the best Snake player in my opinion. So yeah, High 3/Low 4 in my book.

Meta Knight
> He has high-priority, multihit moves (rapid A, side B, neutral B)
++ Falcon Kick doesn't work on the tornado after MK has been mashing B (this raises its priority). You'll have to run away from the tornado, to an edge. A tornado over a pit can be suicide for MK.
++ MK is vulnerable after a tornado. Don't get hit by it, then follow up with uairs (if he lands on a platform) or one of your many ground moves if he lands on the ground (running usmash is nice.)

Mr. G&W

-Bair has huge, long lasting, hitbox
+Foxtrot away then move in.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4798214
Falcon finally has something cheap...against Wario. When we do Wario matchups, this will be important.

Doggalina said:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4798214
Falcon finally has something cheap...against Wario. When we do Wario matchups, this will be important.

Click to expand...

If grab -> Sweet Knee is a true and reliable combo, we may have a great thing going here. Wario is a ***** to face right now but something like this would make things a LOT more managable.

Are there any characters that belong in the 4 or 5 category that havn't been opened for submissions?
I'll update the guide sometime tonight.
For the Wario thing does this mean grab, hit him till he breaks out of the grab, then knee him?

Meta Knight

Meta Knight

- Outranges you
- Outprioritizes you
- Attacks come out faster than yours
- Attacks are mostly stronger than yours
- Can combo well
- Better kill moves
- Hell, he doesn't even need those kill moves, once you're off the edge, you're moar or less screwed
- Neutral A is practically an impenetrable fortress
- Neutral B is an impenetrable fortress
- Better recovery
- Spotdodge-dsmash counters almost everything you have
- I could go on.

+ Falcon is much manlier
+ Falcon is also much moar awesome
+ Knee can punish glide
- Knee cannot punish glide if the MK you're fighting knows what the ****

Strategy:

FALCON KICK!

Anyway, other than that, just play really, really defensively. You won't win by playing offensively, since MK beats the hell out of you there. You probably won't win by playing defensively either, since MK beats the hell out of you there, too, but not as much as he beats the hell out of you when you play offensively.

Wogrim said:

Are there any characters that belong in the 4 or 5 category that havn't been opened for submissions?
I'll update the guide sometime tonight.
For the Wario thing does this mean grab, hit him till he breaks out of the grab, then knee him?

Click to expand...

I tested this out myself. If you hit him until he breaks out and he doesn't struggle, he'll break out on the ground. If you DON'T hit him the whole time though, he'll jump out. After the jump out, though, it looks extremely DIable (and therefore airdodgeable), and Falcon's lag at the same time is pretty bad, so I'm thinking this might NOT be something. That's just speculation on my part, as I need to test it with DI, but I suppose landing a knee is not totally out of the question.

EDIT: After playing a Wario online, this, unfortunately, DOES NOT WORK (most likely). He can DI after the jump, he can struggle (I presume) and get out on the ground if you hit him, and you certainly can't knee him after.

The glimmer of hope is that 1. I was playing under extreme lag and 2. Just because knee doesn't work doesn't mean something else won't (Usmash, Utilt, Fsmash, Ftilt, Jab, I could name plenty of moves that might work).

I can't tell if it's escapable or not since I'm testing against a computer, but it DOES work. Sets up very nicely for a guaranteed sweetspot. If it's escapable that would suck because this has great potential. If the Knee doesn't work then maybe at least Uair will or something...

Ok so if I grab -> punch -> Wario Breaks -> Knee, it registers as a combo in Training Mode. This leads me to believe that it isn't escapable. But nothing is certain yet, human v. human testing is needed.