SHOW ME YA DATA! Percents for killing (DONE! Printable PDF inside.)

Okay, I'll admit it. I'm not very good at this game. I haven't been to a tourney (Big C hosts some in my area, and I'll definitely go to some eventually). However, I have a thing for numbers and science. I'm going to play to my strengths and try to help the Falcon community in the only way I can: Pure data collection.

Here's the plan:

1. Find percents at which certain setups work with certain factors (no DI, DI 'forward,' DI 'backwards') and at what percents they can be easily escaped by air dodging and jumping. Let's focus on killing moves now. I'll probably make a separate thread for this so the discussion of "combos" doesn't get tangled up with pure killing data.
2. Find percents at which Falcon's killing moves kill with no DI and with proper DI.
3. Find this data for EVERY CHARACTER.

Sounds simple, but it's a lot of data to record. I'll be distributing this data in spreadsheet form through Google Documents. After I post this, I'll create the documents (sans actual data) and post the links here so everybody can see the format.

Hopefully with this thread, Wogrim's matchup thread, and others like it, we, as a community of Falcon players, can help pull Falcon out of the depths of crap tier and make him a legitimate threat. In the words of Captain Falcon, "COME ON!"
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LOG
7/26/08 - Fixed misaligned data. Added "About" sheet to the GDoc. Added multiple file type downloads (PDF and ODS). Added Open Office link in the "Resources" section. Requested sticky from Samurai Panda through PM (he wasn't happy that people were asking in visitor messages <.<) Formatted post.

7/15/08 - Requested sticky (Samurai Panda)

6/29/08 - All "No DI" data is complete (huge thanks to Wogrim for that).

6/27/08 - Added Ganon through DDD and Lucario through Sonic data. Update Wogrim's credits in the Contributors section.

6/24/08 - Added Bowser, Wario, Toon Link, ROB, Olimar, and Falcon data. Updated Wogrim's credits in the Contributors section.

6/23/08 - Added data on Fox, Ike, and Yoshi. Added aerial Falcon Kick. Added "Estimates" sheet to the GDoc. Added formulas for average, minimum, and maximum to GDoc. Crossed out things related to setups and "combos." Fixed Lucas' aerial Falcon Kick data. Added Radiation to Contributors section.

6/22/08 - Added Contributors section. Added Wogrim and OmegaSephiroth to Contributors section. Merged the two killing percent GDocs. Added data on Metaknight, Snake, Wolf, and Falco.

06/21/08 - Created thread. Added Intro, Data,How to Contribute, and Resources sections. Added 2 incomplete Gdocs. Started testing killing moves with no DI. Utilt (no DI) data for first 3 character select rows added. Added Wogrim's data for Lucas. Added nair (second hit), Falcon Kick (first hitbox), various forms of the Falcon Punch, and the back-kick of the DSmash.
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THE DATA
Killing percents from the center of Battlefield:
GDoc (html): http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pRxSiDYXRTXK6jkXXOO-Aeg&gid=7
PDF: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pRxSiDYXRTXIx52g2KwxeSw&output=pdf
ODS: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pRxSiDYXRTXK6jkXXOO-Aeg&output=ods
NOTE: To edit the ODS, you have to save it first. The cells containing the moves and G&W's name aren't fitted correctly in the ODS file. To open an ODS, you need Open Office (see "Resources"). Google documents can also import ODS files.
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HOW YOU CAN CONTRIBUTE
Obviously, there is a lot of data to be found. Well, you can help, as long as you submit it in the following format (just in a reply to this thread). You can either submit data for every move on one character OR data for every character hit by one move.

Please submit it in an easily readable format, please.

By killing percent, I mean the percent at which the move sends the character off the left or right blastline (for horizontal KOs). For vertical KOs, it obviously just needs to be a star KO. Both kinds of tests should be done from the middle of BATTLEFIELD. Make sure you do it in training mode, and get it EXACT to the 1 percent. By center I mean directly below where the CPU spawns on the main platform. Make sure the CPU doesn't brush against Falcon and get pushed one way or the other.

MAKE SURE YOU POST WHAT YOU'LL BE TESTING BEFORE YOU DO SO PEOPLE DON'T WASTE THEIR TIME!

When doing every character, please submit it in the same order I have it on the spreadsheet.

How to test:

1. Go to training mode. Choose Falcon as your character and the character being tested as the CPU.
2. In training mode, set the CPU behavior to "control."
3. With the second controller, have the CPU run off the stage.
4. From the floating respawn platform fastfall all the way down to the main platform.
5. Set the the CPU's percent to a reasonable percent.
6. Attack with Falcon (make sure you ONLY touch the CPU with the move being tested and nothing else. Don't run through the CPU)
7. Now, "home in" on the killing percent. The killing percent should satisfy two criteria:
   a) When hit with the move at the killing percent, the CPU should die off the side blast line (left or right) NOT the corner or the bottom. This only applies to horizontal KO moves. With vertical KO moves, the move should star KO the CPU at the killing percent.
   b) At 1 percent lower than the killing percent, the CPU should NOT satisfy 7a.
8. Basically, the killing percent is the lowest percent at which a move kills outright.

Of course, any and all suggestions, comments, and criticisms would be greatly appreciated.
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RESOURCES
Tutorial on "proper DI"(skip to about 23:00): http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...dvanced+how+to+play&ei=HzBdSInMOJTk4AKX2IHNAQ (This is for Melee, but I'm pretty sure it still applies to Brawl)

AlphaZealot said:

Directional Influence (DI): Will alter your trajectory to help you survive better. Easiest way to do it is to just DI everything that sends you in a somewhat horizontal direction upwards and DI upwards-sending attacks in the same direction as the opponent is facing (or the opposite if they hit you with the back of the attack).

Click to expand...

Open Office: www.openoffice.org
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CONTRIBUTORS
Wogrim - Found most of the no DI data (more than twice what I did). Suggested new KO moves. Made estimates.
OmegaSephiroth - Is testing from the middle of Final Destination instead of Battlefield.
Radiation - Suggested aerial Falcon kick (first hitbox)

Awesome man. I look forward to your findings!

I have a question for all you Falcons (a two-parter): What are some good "setups" or "pseudo-combos" with Falcon (for instance, stomp to knee)?

Also, under what various circumstances should they be tested. As of right now, I have no DI, DI "forward" (the way Falcon is facing), and DI "backwards" (the way opposite the way Falcon is facing). Also, I will test at which percents these setups can be escaped through jumping or air dodging.

Can I do the kill move % test without DI in the Training mode in the middle of FD?

If so, I'll do it.

OmegaSephiroth said:

Can I do the kill move % test without DI in the Training mode in the middle of FD?

If so, I'll do it.

Click to expand...

If you're willing to do every single move on every single character from the middle of FD, that's fine. I'm doing Battlefield, so diversifying this data is always welcome.

I'll do every move listed in the Google document.

Is it supposed to kill them outright or just knock them to a point where they can't recover? And I don't know training mode too well but how do you get them to stand in the exact center of the bottom part of battlefield? (might be a noob question lol) A video of you doing all the moves on 1 character might make things more clear.

Edit: and min and max values listed at the bottom would also be good, so you know at what percent you will kill any character and at what percent you won't kill any character.

It's supposed to kill them outright.

Wogrim said:

Is it supposed to kill them outright or just knock them to a point where they can't recover? And I don't know training mode too well but how do you get them to stand in the exact center of the bottom part of battlefield? (might be a noob question lol) A video of you doing all the moves on 1 character might make things more clear.

Edit: and min and max values listed at the bottom would also be good, so you know at what percent you will kill any character and at what percent you won't kill any character.

Click to expand...

It has to kill them outright. They should go off the right/left blastline, not the bottom. The little blue flame that pops out when they die should come out of the side, not the corner or bottom.

To get them to stand in the middle of battlefield, have the CPU die, then fastfall from the floating platform through the top platform to the main one. You should just fastfall, not DI left or right while falling. Make sure the only contact the character has with Falcon is the move, so the character being tested doesn't move at all from center.

And min/max values would be useful. I'll add those once I get all this data.

Seems like it will be easiest to do this by characters. And training mode doesnt suffer from diminishing knockback right?

I'm gonna start with the characters on the bottom row, no DI (just calling it so hopefully people don't redo stuff I'm already doing).

Wogrim said:

Seems like it will be easiest to do this by characters. And training mode doesnt suffer from diminishing knockback right?

I'm gonna start with the characters on the bottom row, no DI (just calling it so hopefully people don't redo stuff I'm already doing).

Click to expand...

Training has no diminishing returns. What do you mean by "bottom row"?

In case anybody wants to know, I'm currently doing U-tilt for every character, no DI.

Doggalina said:

Training has no diminishing returns. What do you mean by "bottom row"?

In case anybody wants to know, I'm currently doing U-tilt for every character, no DI.

Click to expand...

Basically, in the character select screen, the ones on the bottom of it.

Frate said:

Basically, in the character select screen, the ones on the bottom of it.

Click to expand...

Okay. Actually, that's good for me, because I'm almost done with the first 3 rows with my Utilt data. How convenient.

EDIT: I added Utilt data for the first three rows of characters.

marking this thread to say that's its useful and actually a brilliant idea.

f**uck the staff for not sticking it.

Aurashade said:

f**uck the staff for not sticking it.

Click to expand...

I just made this thread today. I haven't requested a sticky, mostly because it's still in its very early stages. Once it gets bigger, I may request a sticky.

I think you may need to go through all the moves and look at the hitboxes, Doggalina, because some of the moves definately have different knockback at certain points. Going through everything with Lucas here is some stuff I found out that you need to look at before I continue tommorrow (maybe some more later tonight)

> Dair(feet), unless I am doing it wrong, doesn't kill till 165 (not a very good kill move, star k.o.'s right?)
> The second hit of nair kills at 151 (so maybe nair should be on there?, and couldn't get both hits cuz he's so short so if you do put it on there make it second hit only)
> Dair (nipple) did surprisingly well, killing at 93
> Dsmash on the front side kills at 93 while the back kick doesn't kill till 108 (unless i'm spacing that wrong)
> Falcon Punch kills at 42 (lawl) when he is basically as close as i can get without pushing him, while at the tip of a Falcon Punch it doesn't kill till 57. However, the reverse Falcon Punch is even stronger, killing at 39 when close and 53 at the tip.
> Falcon Kick definately has 2 hitboxes: the second one (if you hit them with the second half of the falcon kick) knocks them upwards and is not a k.o. move (doesn't star k.o. at 300 so I didn't bother finding the exact number). However, the first hitbox sends your opponent fairly horizontally (sends them backwards if they are kissing you when you start the Kick, but kills at the same percent) and kills at 158 (also better than dair(feet))
> Usmash I had to do the sliding version because when I stood as close to possible to Lucas, only the first hit would hit him. Also for smash, although minor, I did notice that while killing at 101 when his trajectory was slightly in front of Falcon, it killed at 102 when it was behind Falcon (probably nothing to make a new column over though)
> I assumed all smashes are supposed to be uncharged, correct?

> For reference, here's all the numbers I collected so you don't waste time trying to kill when you're 20% off from the numer (like I've done for the past 2 hours)

Utilt: 122
Fair: 72 (electric knee, right?)
Bair: 110 (sweetspotted, if you want the nonsweetspotted version I'll find that out too)
Uair: 140 (since Lucas is really short, I can only hit him at the very start of the move, when Falcon's legs are right in front of him)
Dair(feet): 165
Dair(nipple): 93
Fsmash: 101
Dsmash: 93
Dsmash(back hit): 108
Usmash: 101
Usmash(back trajectory): 102
Punch(close as possible): 42
Punch(far as possible): 57
Reverse Punch(close): 39
Reverse Punch(far): 53
Dive: 149
Nair(hit 2 only):151
Falcon Kick: 158

Edit: I know you want the numbers put in the spreadsheet, but I think you should consider adding more columns before I do (explore the different hitboxes of the moves, then change the spreadsheet if you think it should be)

Those numbers are for Lucas, correct?

Okay, I'll add nair, Falcon kick (first hitbox), Reverse punch, and the tips of punches on there. This list just got more extensive.

Oh, and with Uair I'll note that it's the short hopped version, first part.

Doggalina said:

Those numbers are for Lucas, correct?

Okay, I'll add nair, Falcon kick (second hitbox), Reverse punch, and the tips of punches on there. This list just got more extensive.

Oh, and with Uair I'll note that it's the short hopped version, first part.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's just Lucas, took a lot longer than I expected but now that I have a good idea of the percents the moves will kill other characters at and know the hitboxes of the moves better, the other characters should go much faster (like 20-30 min each I'd guess). It's the first hitbox of the Falcon Kick, other than that it sounds good. Sorry though I have to have lunch and do a bunch of non-smash stuff for a while.

If a move is a legitimate KO move, I will happily add it to the list. The spreadsheet isn't hard to edit. Just submit the data and I'll add it as need be. Once this is complete, it'll be a valuable resource. Once we get KO moves done, we'll have to move onto setups and "combos."

Aerial Falcon Kick (1st hitbox) kills Lucas from the middle of Battlefield with no DI at 143%. Noticed you didn't have aerial Falcon Kick, it has slightly more knockback.

EDIT: c. falcon's new aerial game: the landing of falcon kick kills lucas at the middle of battlefield with no DI at 656%!!!!

I'm soon done with Fox. Already tested all kill moves on the first 6 chars. I think I'll finish with half of the chars today.

I added data on Snake, Metaknight, Wolf, and Falco. Snake and Meta because they are just that good, Wolf because I play one often, and Falco because he's currently third in tournament placings.

Radiation said:

Aerial Falcon Kick (1st hitbox) kills Lucas from the middle of Battlefield with no DI at 143%. Noticed you didn't have aerial Falcon Kick, it has slightly more knockback.

EDIT: c. falcon's new aerial game: the landing of falcon kick kills lucas at the middle of battlefield with no DI at 656%!!!!

Click to expand...

Yeah that occurred to me last night but I've been getting database errors. Then I tried refresh like 10 times and got through... server overload or something?

Anyways... I decided that with character weights probably having some sort of constant relationship with knockback, that I could get good estimates on kill move percents just using ratios of known kill move percents:

Ratio of kill percents of Jiggs/Lucas for UTilt: 0.868852459
I multiplied that by Lucas's percents for other moves to get estimates for Jiggs

Move Estimate Actual
UTilt N/A 106
FAir 62.55737705 61
BAir 95.57377049 95
UAir 121.6393443 121
DAir(feet) 143.3606557 138
DAir(nipple) 80.80327869 80
FSmash 87.75409836 86
DSmash 80.80327869 80
DSmash(b) 93.83606557 93
USmash 87.75409836 83
Punch(c) 36.49180328 34
Punch(far) 49.52459016 48
RPunch(c) 33.8852459 31
RPunch(far)46.04918033 44
Dive 129.4590164 129
Nair(hit2) 131.1967213 133
Kick 137.2786885 138
AKick Didnt think of it in time

Since they are all around 1-2% off, with the exception of USmash and Dair(feet) (probably cuz Jiggs is so floaty), I found the UTilt numbers for the rest of the bottom row and made a big spreadsheet of estimated values with that and your UTilt values for all the rest of the characters (adding aerial kick will be really easy I just have to use the same formula with aerial falcon kick on lucas, which Radiation's already found but I just haven't added to my spreadsheet yet). So anyways if you give me write permissions (TCarothers@scu.edu) I can just copy all the estimated values over; just remember that anything with a decimal place is estimated and still needs to be found (this will just help people find the actual values a bunch faster, since they will be starting from really close numbers). Or I could email you the spreadsheet or something.

Wogrim, M2K made a list of character weights, and some characters are heavier vertically than horizontally. That's why USmash and Dair (feet) were off.

If you email me the spreadsheet (Doggalina@gmail.com), I'll put it up on Google Docs and put a link to it in the first post to people can know where to look.

If you are testing vs computers doing jump, be careful, because they tend to actually uh... DI sometimes.

Even level 3.

Tenki said:

If you are testing vs computers doing jump, be careful, because they tend to actually uh... DI sometimes.

Even level 3.

Click to expand...

We're testing on a CPU set to "control" in training mode without us touching the second controller.

Doggalina said:

Wogrim, M2K made a list of character weights, and some characters are heavier vertically than horizontally. That's why USmash and Dair (feet) were off.

If you email me the spreadsheet (Doggalina@gmail.com), I'll put it up on Google Docs and put a link to it in the first post to people can know where to look.

Click to expand...

Okay thats fine with me. As for my post, sorry it came out ugly I had a bunch of spaces to make it look right but the forum removed the extras (and I don't know how to put a tab in, if that's even possible).

Sorry, I've been doing some other stuff, promise I'll finish my row tommorrow (maybe in the morning).

I'm considering making a separate thread for setups/"combos", so I'm going to cross that stuff off here. We should focus on finishing the killing percents, both with and without DI.

EDIT: I'm going to find data for Fox, Ike, and Yoshi now.

EDIT2: Note that the mins/averages/maxes are all the mis/averages/maxes FOR THE DATA WE CURRENTLY HAVE.

EDIT3: Aerial Kick kills Lucas before 143 if short hop and immediately KYICK!

EDIT4: 135%, to be exact.

Sorry, the kill %s without DI in the middle of FD on every character takes a little longer than I expected. I'll finish it during the next few days. I've had some other stuff to do.

I just have Wario and Bowser left in the bottom row; I'll email you when I'm done (although I can't finish it right now). And when doing Falcon I noticed a 'close' hitbox for UAir that kills at 135 instead of 147, so I went back and did it with the other characters and it just turns out that it's a bunch harder to hit on the short characters. For Lucas and Jiggs it's 129 and 113, respectively (instead of 140 and 121). I suggest you try it on the characters you've done so far and decide if it is worth adding a new column or ignoring or replacing the other one....

Where is this "close" hitbox? All of my data is from right when the move starts.

I've been doing it on the down fall from the jump, maybe you're doing it on the way up? Try getting Falcon's Uair kill percent (on Falcon) and see if you get 147. Then stand really close to him and work on Uairing on the way down, and not starting it until you are as close to the ground as you can be and it still hits him, and you should find that it will now kill as low as 135. I call it a close hitbox because both hit at the very start of the move, but if you are close enough to hit them basically with where your knees are, you get the 'close' hitbox.

I do uair on the way down for all my data.

I found it for Ike, it's 137, just practice UAirs on him at 137 till you kill him then you'll get it. I'm emailing you my stuff (finished the bottom row). Also completed the aerial kicks for the ones you were missing. Note that my nair is in a different spot and my uair close column in the middle (just be careful when copying numbers over). Also, for some reason Fox wasn't in my table earlier, which messed up the estimates table a little I think. I only did uair close for Ike cuz I'm not sure what you wanna do with it.

You know what, I don't think the uair data is that important. I mean a) it has a really wonky hitbox and b) we use it so much that stale moves are going to make the data useless for uair. I'm added your data now.

I'll do Lucario, Ness, and Sonic in the next day or two.

Lucario, Ness, and Sonic are done; I'll email you again after I've gotten Ganon, IC, and DDD.

I've emailed you; Lucario, Ness, Sonic, Ganon, IC, and DDD are all done now.

Okay, I updated it. I'll do Mario through Pikachu next (not sure by when, though. Probably not today, I have a Smashfest to go to and actually use this data)