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The Dthrow: When faceplanting your foe wasn't good enough. (Update 10/20)

cutter

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The Down Throw

Basic Overview​
As we know, G&W's Dthrow is a very useful throw because of its unique properties. It throws your foe straight to the ground slamming them there.

What makes the Dthrow such a good throw is that it gives your opponent few options on what they do afterwards. This opens the door for predicting your opponent and punishing them. The victim's weight determines how fast G&W will juggle his foe before slamming them onto the ground.

Your opponent has these options when you execute a Dthrow:
- Tech the throw. This requires timing that's different for each character and if you're anticipating the tech you can techchase into something else like a Dash attack or a regrab.
- Roll left or right. This allows more techchasing. Each character has a different roll length, which is important to keep in mind. If you successfully predict which way your opponent rolls, they're wide open for an attack of your choosing, or a regrab.
- Use a get-up attack. If you anticipate this and shield it, you can easily punish your opponent with an attack or a regrab.
- Normally get up. This is by far the worst option for your opponent and you'll hardly see this.

Following up a Down Throw​
For now, most players cannot successfully tech G&W's Dthrow well. This allows the G&W player to quickly follow up with another attack or something from a techchase.

Here are the most common combos following a Dthrow:
- Jab. This is usually the safest follow-up from a Dthrow. It will immediately get your opponent as they get slammed down afterwards. What's even weird about G&W's jab is that is also hits behind him, which can also catch opponents that DI behind you from the Dthrow. The jab will force your foe back up and you can regrab them and do it all again if your opponent isn't ready for it. This gives G&W a pseudo-chaingrab that will lay waste to players that don't know too much about DIing the Dthrow or teching it.
- Dtilt. Another safe follow-up that I personally like. Dtilt's 5 frame startup time will quickly push your foe back. If they're at low percentages, you could possibly regrab them or hit them with a dash attack. It won't work though if the opponent DIs behind you.
- Dash attack. This can be another great option that your foe can't do too much about unless they DI behind you.
- SH Dair. Most won't expect this too often, and you can usually hit your opponent with both attacks to pile on an easy 18-20%.
- Oil Panic. It has nearly instant startup time to result in an excellent way to unleash the strongest attack in the game. Be careful though because if your opponent DIs away from the throw and you immediately release the bucket, you'll waste it! It is probably better just to techchase IMO since the bucket has a massive hitbox along with its very fast startup time.
- Crouch. Self-explanatory.
- Dsmash. By far the most common follow-up to the Dthrow which can be devastating despite the Dsmash's "sourspot" hit. Lightweight characters will get caught in this combo every time unless they tech the throw. Some lightweight/midweight characters will always get caught in Dthrow+Dsmash if they're at certain percentages and are able to roll out at higher percentages. As for mid-heavy/heavyweights, they can roll out every time as long as they time the roll.

Here is a good list of characters that can be hit by Dthrow+Dsmash. Credit goes to Mr. Escalator for constructing this:
Red Characters - you can't hit them with your down smash as they can hold left or right while being thrown to escape
Orange Characters - you can only hit them if they do a get up attack from the ground, they can buffer rolls to escape
Green Characters - these characters can buffer a roll to escape your down smash but if they try to time the roll, you will likely hit them
Blue Characters - even if they buffer a roll you can hit them before they move.

Heavy Characters:
Bowser
Dedede
DK
Ganondorf
Ike (is orange for the first throw)
Snake
Charizard
Samus
Link
ROB

Medium Characters:
Lucario
Luigi
Ivysaur
Yoshi
Wario
Captain Falcon
Wolf
Mario (60-70% he turns red)
Sonic

Light Characters:
Peach
Pit
Diddy Kong
Toon Link (40-50% he turns red)
Ice Climbers
Lucas
Ness
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik

Very Light Characters:
Marth
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Kirby
Meta Knight
Fox
Falco
Squirtle
Game and Watch
Jigglypuff


Targeting your prey: Techchasing
So if your opponent is escaping you and avoiding your combos and getting away, this is when you resort to techchasing. In case you don't know what it means, techchasing is simply predicting where your opponent rolls to so you can punish him. In higher levels of play, mastering techchasing becomes very essential especially when opponents will be able to get around most Dthrow combos.

In tournament play, especially against good players, I would be ready for them to tech the Dthrow and have a follow-up waiting for them. Personally, no one knows how to tech G&W's Dthrow well, so I just chase rolls. Remember, you don't have to roll when you tech; you can tech in place!

Techchasing can be devastating on small platforms like the floating ones on Battlefield. They give your opponent little room to roll so you can easily follow up with something of your choosing. Generally, the smaller the platform, the better for your Dthrow, even if they tech it. Characters also have different rolls; some like ROB and G&W himself have very slow and short rolls that will allow you to easily techchase and destroy, while characters like Snake and Lucario have pretty good rolls which means you'll have to hustle to acheive a techchase follow-up.

Stuff to do out of techchasing
- Up Smash (hyphen smash). Absoultely brutal if it connects. G&W's Usmash is perfect for techchasing due to its sheer strength.
- Regrab. Another great choice to start the Dthrow fun all over again.
- Dash attack. Solid and reliable.
- SH Dair. Most won't expect this too often, and you can usually hit your opponent with both attacks to pile on an easy 18-20%.
- Judgment. If you're feeling lucky and your opponent isn't at a very high percentage, going for a 9 can be a viable choice. Even if you don't get a 9, something like a 6, 7, or 8 isn't too bad either.
- Oil Panic. The best way of getting a surefire bucket unloaded on your opponent. Anticipate their roll, chase, Down B, and let the oil's massive hitbox do the rest.

Spiking
Although very situational, the Downthrow can spike because it throws your opponent straight into the ground. Its applications are very limited however, but it is very nice to know when you can spike with the Dthrow.

When the Down Throw will spike
- On the stage Skyworld, on the bottom platform, and when the real platform is destroyed only leaving a cloud. For some characters they can quickly do their double jump and then Up B through the clouds back onto the stage (ie Pit), but against characters that have tether recoveries (Olimar, ZSS, Ivysaur), they're screwed 99% of the time. Skyworld is a banned stage though in most tournaments, which is a bummer.
- You're facing the edge, your foe is right on it as you grab them. This isn't a sure spike since sometimes your opponent will just graze the edge. If they DI wrong (ie away from the center of the stage) they'll probably be spiked.

Conditioning your victim​
A part of good techchasing is to read your opponent and "condition" them into doing a certain action you want them to do to follow up with deadly results. Basically, it's an attempt to mindgame your foe into doing a certain action on a Dthrow follow-up.

Study your opponents' patterns. Do they roll to one side a lot, do they like to use get-up attacks, or do they don't seem to do anything until they're provoked? Get a feel for how your opponent will react after a Dthrow. There really isn't too much harm if you guess wrong on what they'll do. If you guess right, you'll have a golden opportunity to do something like a regrab or a Usmash to obliterate them.

Again, always expect your opponent to tech the throw. A good general rule about G&W's Dthrow... the shorter the platform the better the throw will be. With shorter room to roll, you can set up easy techchase traps. How does conditioning factor into this? Well if you get a throw off on the main platform and you see you opponent react in whatever way, it is best to try another throw attempt on a small platform to maximize the reward you get. This is *really* important if you want to Oil Panic hits after the throw.

And even though this is a guide all about the Dthrow, use other throws as well because Dthrow works well on some characters like ROB because of his poor roll and bad on others. A character like Snake has a huge roll and will easily be able to avoid techchasing opportunities. It is best to use a Uthrow on Snake to force him into the air instead of just getting a measly 6% on him.

Here is a list showing normal roll distances and techroll distances. All credit goes to omegablackmage for constructing this chart.

omegablackmage said:
I've also found that when the tech roll length goes past 1.6, it becomes difficult to tech chase in my opinion (mk's length).
...............roll...............tech
gw..........1.5...............1.1
lucario...1.95............1.2
ganon....1.75............1.4
rob.........1.75............1.4
jiggz.......1.3..............1.45
kirby......1.5..............1.5
pikachu.1.2..............1.5
ness.......2.................1.5
sonic......1.75............1.5
bowser..1.1..............1.5
wario.....1.65............1.5
olimar...1.5...............1.5
icies.......1.65............1.55
lucas......2.................1.55
diddy.....2..................1.6
meta k..1.75............1.6
t link......1.7..............1.7
mario....2..................1.75
samus...1.85............1.75
zss.........2..................1.75
sheik.....1.75............1.75
lizardon.1.4.............1.75
captain..1.85...........1.75
pit...........1.5.............1.8
snake....2.4..............1.8
dk...........1.75...........1.85
fox.........1.9..............1.85
luigi........2.5.............1.9
ike..........2.1.............1.9
marth....2.1.............1.95
yoshi......1.7.............1.95
ddd.........1.7.............1.95
falco.......1.95...........2
ivysaur..2.25...........2
peach.....2................2
wolf........1.9..............2
link.........2.1..............2.1
zelda.....2.25............2.25
squirtle.1.75............2.25

tl;dr version: Techchasing takes a lot of practice and experience to get good with it. The more matches you can play against real-life players, the better you'll get.

Videos​
Throwing animation causes a spike on Frigate flip. (1:45)
 

Neb

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Nice idea, Cutter, I'm glad your contributing! A suggestion, a list of combo's, which is pretty much a given. Don't forget to give titles to every section. Like your first, would be something like "Escape Routes and Punishing them", not to say that is a title, but you get the point.
Keep up the good work, ^^b.
 

Mr. Escalator

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Very nice Cutter!
Maybe mention somewhere in this that the Dthrow can spike?
I've yet to do it in actual play, but I'll try and look into the specifics if I get time.*

*bored
 

Neb

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That makes two of us. *bored.
Maybe make a section for strategies on how to condition an opponent to react certain ways, so you can pull off a particular follow up?

Also, dash attack works good in or out of a tech-chase.
So does SH dair.
 

cutter

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Yes I am going to put a spike section in Esc. :)

That's a good idea Neb; I'll have to get to that too. Do you mean doing some other Dthrows to see how your opponent is going to roll and get away? Because I do this to my friend who always does the same roll patterns and I murder him with techchasing.

OK guys, I'm going to bed for the night so what I've done is a start. I won't be able to be here on Thursday and Friday for most of the day, but I'll drop by and hopefully do some more updates if I can.
 

napZzz

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I've spiked with the dthrow before trying to gimp snakes up b recovery lol. The only way it happens is if you grab them when you are right on the edge and coming down they somehow manage to DI the wrong way off stage >.<
 

Flob

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Something I do sometimes is neutral B. If they keep lying where they are the pan will hit them, and if they roll they you are covered with pancakes which might hit them. This only doesn't work if they DI at your backside. Sadly.
 

Hawks go Caw

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I tried this against the computer today, and as we all know, the computer acts pretty stupid in regards to following up G&W's d-throw. But anyway, it was at Sky World against a level 9 computer Snake. I broke the platforms and performed a d-throw with G&W and Snake got spiked. Played another round and did the same thing to a Pit, only he didn't get spiked. He did still fall through the clouds however. So I'm not sure if the computer just completely sucks at DI'ing after the D-throw or what. However, I thought this might be helpful if you were ever to add a section about peculiarities about d-throw and stages.
 

cutter

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Ok guys, minor update on the spiking section. I'll do another quick update on Friday night and then I'll start working more on this guide on Saturday.
 

Steck

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Mindgame: After they doge downsmash after the down throw by rolling out of the way ,just use downsmash again- usually hits them depending on how far they rolled
 

Neb

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Yes I am going to put a spike section in Esc. :)

That's a good idea Neb; I'll have to get to that too. Do you mean doing some other Dthrows to see how your opponent is going to roll and get away? Because I do this to my friend who always does the same roll patterns and I murder him with techchasing.

OK guys, I'm going to bed for the night so what I've done is a start. I won't be able to be here on Thursday and Friday for most of the day, but I'll drop by and hopefully do some more updates if I can.
Yeah, in a way its a mindgame. For instance, say the person your dsmashing techs a lot, you can abuse their tech so bad that they don't do it at all, then punish them with dsmash, oil panic, judge, etc. Its basically conditioning them to get the result you want.
 

Mr. Escalator

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ololol

I spiked a Wolf on Norfair the other day, winning me the match.
Weird thing was, it wasn't that he DI'd wrong.
I grabbed him when he finished his upB straight up at the edge of the bottom area,
and I could clearly see that he would be spiked from how I was placed.
I'm sure he DI'd to the right, too :p
 

Neb

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Don't know how useful this could be, if at all, but just to put out some dthrow (throws in general) information...Depending on the heaviness of a character, GaW juggles faster or slower, :/.
 

cutter

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^ It helps somewhat, but it's irrelevant in 1v1 matches. Nevertheless, I added that little morsel of advice.

Started a video section. Post videos showcasing awesome Dthrow action! I'll definately add them.

I'll do another update on Saturday night. ;)
 

cutter

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Dthrow + Dsmash has been covered ad nauseam.

Dthrow + crouch added. :chuckle:

When I get my hands on an SD card I'll upload images that I've already made for the sections. Google images has not helped me at all really.

And if you have videos of awesome Dthrow usage, please show me. :)
 

napZzz

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heres something pointless maybe some people know, you can easily tech chase or mess someone up if you dthrow on a small platform like battle field (if I remember right?) pretty situational but hey it might work occasionally. Throw up a section talking about mindgames. If you show someone you have scary dthrow skills, you can start to play with that. Once they start to try and play like your going to grab and they want to avoid it switching things up can really catch them off guard and let you beat them **** less for a little while until they catch on. And not always using the dthrow will throw people off (bad pun). Its all revolving around the dthrow though of course..and I think you should add the word guide to your thread so people would know what this is more so. Hope this helps a little, and if I figure something else out I'll post. I <3 all these mini guides we have!
 

Plum

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I wish Skyworld wasn't banned most places, through the clouds FTW!
Has anyone else besides me totally techchased wrong and wasted their bucket :urg: That's a self esteem killer.
 

cutter

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That's why you abuse the bucket's gigantic hitbox as you predict where your opponent rolls. Be cautious when unloading your bucket this way. The bucket has something like a 2-3 frame startup and its hitbox has nearly unassailable priority and reach to it.

Made some more updates and whatnot. Vids of Dthrow goodness would be great; I'll scour the boards and youtube for some once I get sleep.
 

Hawks go Caw

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It'd be nice if you put a log of updates on the front page that way we don't have to scour the entire guide to find what is new. Good guide though.
 

Neb

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If the thread hasn't been bumped, i think its okay to post an update, or else it wouldn't get noticed. Nevertheless, making an update section on the actual guide isn't a bad idea either.
 

A2ZOMG

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Okay seriously guys, I want to see the F-smash and F-tilt studied here now.

IIRC you can F-smash anything that can be D-smashed as long as you predict their DI right (F-smash only comes out like 2 frames slower than D-smash which is very little). VERY useful against Olimar if he tries to DI away from the edge of the stage he's closest too and stuff like that. F-tilt is easy to use to hit people who try to DI behind you too.
 

Neb

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Okay seriously guys, I want to see the F-smash and F-tilt studied here now.

IIRC you can F-smash anything that can be D-smashed as long as you predict their DI right (F-smash only comes out like 2 frames slower than D-smash which is very little). VERY useful against Olimar if he tries to DI away from the edge of the stage he's closest too and stuff like that. F-tilt is easy to use to hit people who try to DI behind you too.
Yeah, ftilt is definitely lacking applications in G&W's moveset.
Aside from projectile defense, and pseudo-dtilt exploits, its really separated from the meta-game.
 

cutter

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Okay seriously guys, I want to see the F-smash and F-tilt studied here now.

IIRC you can F-smash anything that can be D-smashed as long as you predict their DI right (F-smash only comes out like 2 frames slower than D-smash which is very little). VERY useful against Olimar if he tries to DI away from the edge of the stage he's closest too and stuff like that. F-tilt is easy to use to hit people who try to DI behind you too.
If you buffer the Fsmash you could still hit most lightweights that would also be caught in Dthrow+Dsmash. But yeah, it's definately brutal at high %.

Dsmash comes out frame 15; Fsmash on frame 17. A few heavy lightweights (lol oxymoron) might be able to buffer a roll out of Dthrow+Fsmash. Or anybody could just DI behind G&W.

Yeah, ftilt is definitely lacking applications in G&W's moveset.
Aside from projectile defense, and pseudo-dtilt exploits, its really separated from the meta-game.
I use the Ftlit very sparingly, if ever. I mean yeah it's nice for a kill off the edge of the stage against lightweights when fresh, but I usually just use Dtilt for the applications that Ftilt could do.
 

_Phloat_

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While I don't use the grab as much as I should one of my favorite tricks to condition the opponent is to follow my d-throw with a standing shield. If they just lay there I can SH a key, if they roll behind me they will eat turtle! Any variation of getting up and grabbing/ get up attacking can be re grabbed.

Once they start to roll forward to avoid this stuff, you can run forward after the throw and get a nice, nice u-smash off.

I haven't done this against anyone known, but I was wondering if this sounds solid. My friends are all so predictable conditioning doesn't matter, but I was trying this one of them and it almost always resulted in extra damage...
 

A2ZOMG

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I use the Ftlit very sparingly, if ever. I mean yeah it's nice for a kill off the edge of the stage against lightweights when fresh, but I usually just use Dtilt for the applications that Ftilt could do.
Well, it does significantly more damage than the D-tilt, and it can be fairly difficult to turn around the D-tilt for techchasing.
 

PEEF!

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Ooo, this tastes good.

I like this guide much.

Does anyone have frame data on Upsmash, because I believe Dthrow>upsmash should work on the lightest of the light?
 

Voxx

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Ive been doing d-throw near an edge and quickly spamed chef, it works great on heavy chars(Duh) and peeps with bad recoverys.
 
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