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FP chain grabs can be broken out of.

NESSBOUNDER

NESSBOUNDER

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If the opponent hits enough buttons during the grab time of Force Palm, they can break out of it just like a normal grab.

Sad but true.

Generally you'll need to get your opponent up to around 25% before it's safe to attempt a chain grab with Force Palm, as it's generally too hard for a human to press that many buttons within the short frame of time required.

So Lucario no longer has 0-90 combos, he has 25-90 combos.
 
Kitamerby

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...HOLY SNAP. This is a huge development. o,o

This means our chaingrab list is even shorter, then? D:
 
Browny

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k. so instead ill uthrow - utlit x4, then begin the FPCG. against the characters lucario can FP to high %, he can also utilt lock them, and FP out of that or even another uthrow. and i honestly doubt humans will react quick enough to escape it the isntant it happens. its like G&W turtle, you know its coming, you see him RAR-approach, but you just cant dodge it. its easier said than done when youre in training, focusing on escaping it as oppose to maybe trying to DI out of a utilt, then suddenly you have to stop smahing the control + cstick to start buttong mashing by the time 1 grab has gone off
 
Timbers

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If you're starting the FP CG at 25%, it's not even going to be a CG on most characters, just a really good setup for fair->nair/dair.

That's a bummer.

But yeah I've seen it broken out of before, but I think it was on Pkmn Stadium 1, so I kind of just assumed it was due to stage change.
 
Nodrak

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In a match, unless you're only using FP, your opponent won't be able to button mash fast enough (excluding 0%, just jab them once). I've never even seen a human break the 0% grab. It IS possible to break free sure, but it wont be happening enough to effect the usefulness of FP.
 
Milln

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This has already been documented, too.

But.

Anyway.

Unlikely and moot. FP still decreed safe. Especially since we aren't losing matches because of it.
 
tedward2000

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Yea, thats kinda a blow to the side, but known.
I've seen snake escape from a chain grab early on in the sequence.
Its still amazing, but If DI'ed right, it can be avoided.

-t2
 
NESSBOUNDER

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The thing is though, by pressing every button at once and rotating the control stick, I broke out of the chain grab up to 25% without any problems.

Honestly, if you start a chain grab at 0%, all the opponent has to do is rapidly mash the buttons and they'll break out by the 3rd hit at the latest.

But 25% and up, it's too hard for a human to break out.

And utilt locks can be escaped from by jumping or spotdodging. Utilt has just enough cooldown lag at the end of it for the opponent to air dodge through it and safely side dodge or roll to safety once they hit the ground, unless there's something I'm not aware of. But then again you can always chase and punish.
 
Timbers

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NESSBOUNDER said:
And utilt locks can be escaped from by jumping or spotdodging. Utilt has just enough cooldown lag at the end of it for the opponent to air dodge through it and safely side dodge or roll to safety once they hit the ground, unless there's something I'm not aware of. But then again you can always chase and punish.
Click to expand...
A good deal of characters have nairs quick enough to intercept your utilt and hit you as well. Trying to lock someone with the utilt has never been something I've considered a good idea. Also yeah characters that can't retaliate in that fashion can just airdodge and shield it once they hit the ground. You can always make good use of that though and grab them if they decide that option. Depending on where you lock them though, they might be forced to jump out, expending their double jump. I think you know better than anyone what potential Lucario has with that.
 
Milln

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The characters that can attack Lucario between utilts are generally the more light (Luigi, Ness) and even underused (Moot point) and you shouldn't be going for the utilt spam on them, anyway since you have better ways to control the fight.
 
manhunter098

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Well I would say that for someone to break out of force palm before they get launched would require them to very likely screw up and end up leaving the force palm while doing an aerial, in which case they shouldnt be too hard to punish. It takes skill to button mash QUICKLY and precisely so as to be able to escape something like Force Palm without accidentally going a bit too far and attacking right after you break out. This wouldnt shorten the list of characters that can be chain grabbed either, except perhaps characters who can only be chain grabbed at very low percents, and even then they will have trouble getting out.
 
Ilucamy

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I think I made a topic about this about a month ago. Someone said that they have only seen Level 9 Computers break out of it and only before something like 2%. So, there's not much chance of a human being able to avoid it until 25%. I doubt anyone has the reflex of a Level 9 Computer.
 
Timbers

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Infi-tan said:
The characters that can attack Lucario between utilts are generally the more light (Luigi, Ness) and even underused (Moot point) and you shouldn't be going for the utilt spam on them, anyway since you have better ways to control the fight.
Click to expand...
Squirtle, pikachu, MK, Mario, Lucas, TL also come to mind d=

It's a nice attack. You limit their options with it. Characters that don't have a deathly fast dair/nair can be followed with nair or uair, and uair juggles quite nicely at lower percents on the heavies. If a character tries breaking out of utilts using their nair, just throw the shield up after one or two utilts and shieldgrab/ftilt them or somethin. But yeah, it's a terrible option if your sole intention of using it is to try and lock someone with it. I think of it as a grounded option to fair. It sets up into other attacks, but the attack itself is pretty lame (save for gimp)

Ilucamy: I remember that thread. d=
 
NESSBOUNDER

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I don't think you guys really understand...

It's EASY to button mash out of an FP chain AS LONG as you are UNDER 25%. After that it becomes impossible for a human player.

Go test it in a slow brawl or in slow training mode. Put the opponent's health up to 18% or so, forcepalm them, then mash the other controller's buttons and sticks as fast as you can.

At 1/4 the speed, you'll easily escape force palm most of the time.

If a Lucario fpgrabs you at 2%, if you button mash immediately, you WILL break out by the 2nd or 3rd fp. It's not like the opponent won't be expecting ech fp in the chain.

And after a grab breakout there's plenty of time for the breakee to see that they've broken out and stop pressing buttons, so no, a good player won't accidentally do an attack after breaking out.
 
Timbers

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How many characters does that leave Lucario to actually chaingrab after 25%? I heard the majority were able to be CG'd till 25%. If it's as easy as you say it is to break out until that percent, it kind of makes the "chaingrab" emphasis of his character pointless. There's not that many that can be CG'd after that. Forcepalm sets up some nice fair combos though. Just looks like trying to combo anything into itself is a bad idea on Lucario's part. Hearing how good fair chains and utilt chains were and all that, when it clearly wasnt. And now the FP cg looks pretty lame too xD
 
NESSBOUNDER

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Timbers said:
How many characters does that leave Lucario to actually chaingrab after 25%? I heard the majority were able to be CG'd till 25%. If it's as easy as you say it is to break out until that percent, it kind of makes the "chaingrab" emphasis of his character pointless. There's not that many that can be CG'd after that. Forcepalm sets up some nice fair combos though. Just looks like trying to combo anything into itself is a bad idea on Lucario's part. Hearing how good fair chains and utilt chains were and all that, when it clearly wasnt. And now the FP cg looks pretty lame too xD
Click to expand...
Snake, Dedede, Falco and Wolf...

All relatively big-threat characters that can be CGed up to at least 60%. It's still good.

And Fair Fair Fair Fair is still pretty darn cool. XD
 
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