Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

um, what happened to the G&W discussion

i posted and people got angry

Moderators cause flame wars

TKD said:

They do this match by practically doing nothing. They never approach. It should be one of the SIMPLEST matches Marth can have. Block and punish, powershield/nair/upB their nados, DB any time they'll touch the ground, juggle or punish airdodges, KO well, grab them before they grab you or randomly spot-dodge, don't get gimped, that's it. That's all they have to do.

The only real difference between Marth and MK is that Marth may be gimped which is what makes it slightly bad for him. And recovering well may make this not happen in any of his 3 stocks.

edit: I don't know how bad it is, but I'm sure it's not horrible for him.

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How does Marth punish MK's dtilt when he blocks it? If the answer is he can't, he has to try and reset, presumably by moving back. After doing that once or twice, Marth is at the edge of the stage and if he gets knocked off, he gets gimped like you said.
Dtilt is just one of the moves Marth has very limited options against. Ftilt, dtilt, etc. MK can just put Marth in bad situations while on the approach where his most reliable option is to reset. When he resets, he loses stage control which means he either has to "approach" in the sense that he has to get through mk somehow, or he'll end up off stage.

At least, that's how I understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not too good but I always saw it as a pretty nice advantage to mk.

As for the m2k vs mike matchup, imo M2K was being a bit too aggressive but that's just my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong. Please correct me if I'm wrong. =]

um before u guys officially move onto Marth, may u pwease finish G&W

I think G&W is not supposed to Bair vs MK. When MK's in the air, G&W can go crazy on him safely from below and if G&W is above MK and MK jumps, G&W can dair safely to the ground hitting MK or not. I think G&W can block stuff and punish with...jabs and then perform Dtilt or something?

If G&W blocks mach tornado he can upB and get hit while MK goes into freefall for a punish...he can also do this if he's already caught in the move sometimes. I don't think MK should perform MT unless it's to get to a safe position unpredictably.

G&W KOs with...judgment (with judgment management there's always 1/7 chance of it having huge knockback), then any smash attack, then...fair (high % near the sides), then dair (very late) I think.

MK should just camp in this match-up. A ton of blocking, a lot of baiting, a lot of not approaching. Plank a bit if shield's running out. But yeah gaw's bair is so bad I don't think he should perform it in most match-ups. Also does gaw have dthrow tech chase vs mk? I don't think so but maybe. meh

Both chars need to camp and bait so this match-up is boring. I love it though

Gheb_01 said:

You say that about every match-up lol.

UpB doesn't **** G&W at all. Using UpB against G&W is actually pretty dumb as he can just use UpB/uair OoS to lift you in the air while you're helpless, which is pretty much a free usmash.
Tornado doesn't **** G&W either. It's VERY easy to SDI out of and then punish with dair. G&W upB also ***** the Tornado.

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I dont say that Up B ***** everyone.
And when I say Up B ***** GaW it doesnt mean that you can just go to him and Up B him, lmao!
But Up B covers almost every air approach of GaW, if you time it right.
Just wait for them to start their attack, then Up B it. If they go over you shield the dair and punish. If they use a Dair in front of you to Bait the Up B just wait for them to land and get a free grab.

@ cutter:
Like the Up B you shouldnt use Nado, when he is at the bottom and in the mod to shield and punish the tornado very easy. But if he is in the air you can hit him with tornado really easy.
And learn to use the tornado, so that they cant DI it or else space it, so that they cant punish you, if they DI out of it.
Only bad thing that can happen is that they blast you up in the air with their Up B.
But I dont know how good this works for GaWs.

What other things should GaW do to approach MK? Thats why I think Up B destroys GaW. By destroying his good approach options.

doom, why do you want to mm someone who doesnt play the game? i doubt it will prove much and besides hes a nice guy. most of the time you call people out on mm on the boards like poyo for btyf, you lose. so just stop.

I actually started training with Eazy again recently, but yeah I haven't really played since apex.

Steel2nd said:

I copy pasted that because Spam is seemingly the only top MK who does this match correctly. He didn't tell me how to play it, I figured that out on my own.

You do this match by practically doing nothing. You never approach. It should be one of the most SIMPLE matches that MK has. I'm not going to go in depth yet but seriously, it's not hard. Space some tilts, mix in random nados and grabs, edge guard, that's it. That's all you gotta ****ing do.

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This is exactly how M2K played in the 2 matches he lost agaisnt Mikehaze. The first time he beat mikehaze, he did it by playing aggressively.

And Marth doesn't really have to approach in this matchup either. Sure MK is harder to approach than Marth is from his side, but once marth has a lead he can apply the same strategy with relative success.

All the top Marth's I speak with agree that the majority of MK's do the match wrong. That goes for neo, kadaj, pierce, eazy, emblem lord (if you want to count him), etc.

Then who does play the match right considering NEO beats every mk that isnt m2k?

Dojo,seibrik,omni... pretty sure they have marth xp.

Dojo beat Mike Haze recently though (M2K did too, although it was a lot closer than Dojo). NEO also lost to Infinity back at COT4 I think because... Infinity kinda camped him lol.

I don't think the matchup is SUPER ridiculous, but it's not this 55:45 that people keep talking about. I'd say MK has it 60:40 on average vs Marth. MK's advantage is bigger when Marth has to approach, and it is smaller when he has to approach. That and there are more stages where MK squeezes out an advantage than stages where Marth can reduce the disadvantage/making it even.

The correct way for MK to play Marth isn't exactly easy, btw. (despite what i said in my earlier post about it)

Most Metas don't have the patience to play so gay the entire match.

If both characters are playing aggressively, meta wins.

If meta is camping he wins by alot.

What is so hard to understand about this?

Gimping, tornado, ftilt, baiting db, ds, etc make it much easier for mk to decrease a gap when he's losing as well.

There is almost no situation in which marth has MORE options than mk. Also, when a situation is in mks favor the result is much more drastic than when it is in marths. I play with the mk who imo does this matchup the most correct way, and I've seen what he has done to other top marths. The match, when done the right way...all three stocks, is pretty bad.

Who is that MK? Have him post in here

pretty sure he's talking about spam lol

I KNOW!!! I LOVE SPAM!!! HE PLAYS SO GAY, JUST LIKE ME!!!

He's like, my gay playing Idol. Even more so than Plank.

at evo I was watching M2K vs Mike Haze, and I saw that Marth has a grab release to a tipped forward air on MK, and other then that, Marth's recovery is mediocre and can get gimped easily by MK. What is the verdict on the G&W vs MK matchup?

I dont think that camping is a good way to beat a Marth.
You will get only one hits and he can approach you and also hit you.

If you play agressive and if you dont let him time to get in a safe position, youll get much more good setups to hit him. And you wont get gimps, if you play too deffensive.

Staco said:

If you play agressive and if you dont let him time to get in a safe position, youll get much more good setups to hit him. And you wont get gimps, if you play too deffensive.

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I think if you rush in you will get an Up-B in your face... good marfffffs!

Well hi MKs (Just searched randomly DMGs posts and landed here xD)

-Re-posted Later-

this has already been discussed in some detail by this point but...my thoughts are that you play this matchup very defensively, if you get grabbed at 0% you could eat 24% from a throw combo and at higher % you could be killed from grab release. Marth's pivot grab beats all of your dash approaches and he beats you in the air/can fair over your dtilt. If you play safe, you have a significant advantage, he can't safely approach you and if he attempts to wall you or poke you it's usually easy to get in on him. tornado beats him in the air almost every time and will stop most of his grounded defensive walls too. dtilt outranges most of his ground attacks. a general rule of thumb I have against marth is just to play very simple, the flashier the stuff you try the dumber it probably is, you basically just want to walk around spacing yourself in the most boring way possible, don't try to get overly elaborate comboing him with something that doesn't work, he has fast attacks that can get him out of binds in many situations, and don't try to rush him down. marth is horrendously weak from below so getting him above you and keeping him there is a good way to build damage and maintain control. be careful when recovering, his horizontal aerials will beat yours, he can spike you if you attempt to glide under the stage, he can spike you out of shuttle loop risk free if he has ledge invincibility, and he can drop off and DS you out of tornado or drill rush, and he can counter if he expects shuttle loop as well. just use your multiple jumps to stall until you have a safe path back, but most marth's won't take the risk of going off stage against you so this is usually the easy part. hanging on the ledge, marth can cover most of your basic options pretty well by spacing himself out of get up attack range and spamming fast falled aerials with dtilts for pressure, if he does this drop off > tornado usually works pretty well if you time it so he doesn't get grounded in time, get up attack/drop off SL or roll works if he mispaces himself, or you could just fly above him and react to what he does. edge guarding marth...he's a light character so he'll frequently be coming from high above, you want to get a bit beneath him, don't approach directly from the side, jump > fair/nair in this position or baiting a dodge works. if he goes lower I sometimes find it useful to cross up as he can stage spike you from the other side, sometimes in surprising ways(his DS hitbox starts lower than you may expect, pretty much at his toes).

overall I think it's 60:40 MK or a little better because of his camping advantage and safer kill moves, marth can set up for guaranteed grab release attacks but if you know when they're fishing for grabs you can punish it. you just have to be stupidly cautious approaching this matchup, marth has a lot of tricks on MK but is basically a fundamentally weaker version of MK, so you can usually circumvent most of these. this is mostly a battle of spacing and knowing what marth can do and when, you have the range to just avoid him and attack him when he leaves himself open.

air camping/being above marth in general is no good, run away to the ledge or try to get him to leave himself open or something, don't just fall down immediately if you get sent up, stall for an opening/run

teh_spamerer said:

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

No, he pissed away the first match trying to play ultra aggressive.

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He was basically waiting/baiting and using Torando, but I digress.

So Im assuming you're saying you win by getting a lead and not approaching? Because that works against virtually every character...

If it works, it works.

Edit: If it works because it's supposed to work, then it works.

If it works cause your opponent messes up, then it probably shouldn't work.

My quick rundown:

Marth gets a grab at 0% 50:50
MK takes a quick fair to the face, no more 0% grab combos 60:40

neo vs omni

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1517408

whats with all the dash attacks to approach?

Why is there a new Re-discussion every week, but there is never any new info posted? What happened to GnW or Lucario?

If you expect a fair (or any other aerial), Tornado, it out-prioritizes it, but watch out, if you're wrong and he shields, up B OOS Knocks you out of tornado.

haloman800 said:

Why is there a new Re-discussion every week, but there is never any new info posted? What happened to GnW or Lucario?

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I'll get around to it.

Do we have a ratio for G&W 55-45 MK??

Discussion will end on Sunday, August 9th.

Tin Man said:

Do we have a ratio for G&W 55-45 MK??

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It's 60:40 MK

Hmm.

In the marth matchup, you have to play a bit gay, but if you do, it's a pretty easy matchup IMO. This matchup is basically decided who can space better. Turtling him as much as possible works for me. Oh, and dancing blade is pretty gay. Avoid it at all costs.