Pokedex Entry 4: Marth

MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARTH

DISCUSS

thread in marth board

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4841794#post4841794

Squirtle is at a disadvantage. Not sure how big, but the range problems are without end.

Ivysaur is even, but he needs to play it defensive in order to keep Marth off. While Ivy is easily hogged, Marth easily gets hogged by Ivy as well for the same reason. That is to say, he can easily hog using the tether and be safe as well.

Marth needs to have perfect spacing or he's going to get grabbed by Zard. Zard has a nice grab chain on him at low percents. Zard can easily hog Marth as well, pretty much the same way Ivy does.

I'll play you with Marth, Steeler36.

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Squirtle<Marth

Marth out ranges Squirtle, and outsepeeds him as well. This match up is very hard for Squirtle, and if you try to keep it in the air, Marth will use fair, then fair, then fair...

Ivysaur<Marth

Ivy outranges Marth, but Marth more than makes up for it in speed. If possible, keep grounded in this matchup. It's possible to win.

Charizard>Marth

Marth's fair gets destroyed by Rock Smash, and fire breath ruins approaches. Be aware of counter however.

alright tlink, fc?

5112-3131-0425. And after a couple matches, I might switch to MK and Snake. (Or other characters you want)

alright tlink, sounds good. =] don't **** me too hard ;D

edit well it seems we are off to a good start with the first post in the marth board!

Marth can chain grab release squirtle to the end of the stage. This is what I'm talking about done in MK (though MK can escape it, pretty sure squirtle cant): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nngWNYPT320

Every character can escape it by jumping out of the hold.

Elliot Gale said:

Every character can escape it by jumping out of the hold.

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Uh, thats the whole point. That's why it's a chain grab release. Squirtle ALWAYS jumps release when grabbed by marth.

Maybe I'm missing something here. Can they not attack out of the break?

Elliot Gale said:

Maybe I'm missing something here. Can they not attack out of the break?

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No, they can't. It's the worst on squirtle since he can't do ANYTHING until he hits the ground. Any characters whose legs are off the ground while Marth is grabbing them will jump release (as long as marth is not jabbing him by the time he is about to release). When this happens the character will perform a very laggy jump allowing marth to set up to something else. Just so happens that Squirtle can be chain grabbed. So uh... don't get grabbed when you play marth >_>.

Marth can also grab jump release ivysaur, however ivysaur can escape much more easily than squirtle. Marth can probably still get a fair off on ivysaur however before he can get to safety.

edit: yay for 300 posts ^_^

Well, I'm not going to argue. It actually doesn't make much of a difference - Squirtle is at a huge loss against Marth even without that in the picture.

Lol, lets be glad that it's Squirtle.

What makes Charizard great against Marth anyway?

I don't know too much about PT because I haven't played any good ones, but Ill tell you about Marth.

If you think all Marth is is fair spam, time to rethink your approach to him completely. Only bad marths will spam that.

Marth has a good ground game.
- His tilts are great for camping and his dtilt can set up to many things.
- Dancing blade is possibly the best move in the game and a good marth WILL use this move and use it well.
- Marth's grabs are weak and do only 4-5 percent. However, these grabs set up to MANY things and can fthrow > fsmash at 0-4%. Because his grabs also have little knock back he can tech chase quite well with them as well.
- Marths smashes aren't safe at all on block, a good Marth will not spam these. If he hits you with the tip however, I'm sure you know you will die at around mid percents, pending stage location and what pokemon you have out.

Marth has a good aerial game.
- All his aerials are great. The least used one is dair because of the terrible landing lag it has and how hard it is to spike with now.
- His fair may be the best fair in the game, he can camp with it and maybe completely control the game with it. Don't let this happen.
- His nair is also great and has good knock back if tipped. It hits twice.
- His uair can juggle well and can kill off the top.
- You probably won't be able to beat Marth in the air, it's an uphill battle.

Honestly I don't know how PT can deal with Marth. Squirtle is not much of a threat since Marth outranges and out prioritizes him and can just chain grab release him. Ivysaur may be a challenge on-stage, however once Marth gets him off the stage he can easily gimp him with his air game. I can also see Charizard being a bit of a challenge, but Marth is much faster.

I'll just copy and paste Emblem Lord's match up analysis on the three pokemon so you can see our approach to PT.

Charizard - Think Bowser with better recovery and better smashes, but lighter and different but still solid special moves. Flame Breath is still annoying, so remember to DI away if you get caught since he can aim it just like Bowser. His tilts also have very good range that rival your own and they are fast, especially d-tilt. Just like with Bowser rely on your speed and your safe moves to apply pressure and punish him with Dancing Blade. He isn't as easy to gimp as Bowser, but still pretty gimpable, since his up B isn't that amazing for recovery. You could also just rely on outright killing him, since although he is heavy he isn't one of the super heavy wieghts like Bowser. He is more around Link's weight. A mid heavy type. His grab range is good so be aware of it. His fair is good too, but only at close range near Charizard's body. His fair has no knockback at the end of the flames, so take advantage of that. His up b and U-smash are good punishers out of shield so remember your spacing.

Ivysaur - The worst of the 3 pokemon. She has great range, but her damage laughable. Just zone her when you get close, since she doesn't have the tools to really stop you once you set-up your control/camping game. You can play rush down too if you want. Not too much to fear here. Plus she is super easy to gimp. Just get her off the stage and then nair or fair her then edge hog. When she comes back do a ledge dropped bair if you have to. This way she has to use her second jump to come back. Then just hog the ledge again. Don't bother trying to roll up. Just take the hit. If your damage is low she will hurt you, but you won't die. And she will be done. That's just one example, but overall her recovery is terrible. Also you can DI the launching hit of bullet seed. Just hold forward and you will fly right past the seeds. If you get caught in them just do repeated smash DI of up/away. You will get out fairly quickly and you won't take that much damage. Maybe 20% or less. She telegraphs her kill moves so you shouldn't be getting hit with them much and you can DI away from her multi-attacks which happen to be her best moves overall. Marth just runs over her pretty much. Also Razor Leaf is easy to deal with. Just jab it or perfect shield.

Squirtle : Another character that loses to Marth due to having less range and priority. Squirtle is quick in the air with nice DI, but loses out to Marths sword. His ground game is nothing to really fear since, Marth out ranges and outprioritizes it. None of his smashes are noteworthy really, except U-smash which is alot of knockback. Squirtle telegraphs it a bit though so use that as a clue to roll away or shield. Water Gun is annoying when he is edgeguarding you so refer back to the Mario match-up since you deal with Water Gun the same way you deal with Mario's FLUDD. If Squirtle tries to edgeguard you with aerials just hit him or airdodge. He can kill with his d-throw at high percents so be aware of that. You can edgeguard him fairly easily. Just use fairs and that should suffice. Then just edgehog him or go for a ledge hopped bair. When he is too far out to re-grab in time, just grab the ledge and stay on it. If he uses Withdraw to recover you can hit him and Squirtle will turn around and go in the opposite direction. (keep in mind he wrote this before we discovered the grab release chain on squirtle)

Hope this helped, good luck.

Here's my two cents.

Squirtle can and will get destroyed by Marth in the air, because that ridiculously long sword will tip Squirtle right out of his element. I guess the only thing you can do to counter Marth is to Withdraw (which is easily countered, no pun intended) and Water Gun him right off the stage. This is one of those "ouch" matchups that will really screw over a Pokemon Trainer. 7/3 in favor of Marth.

Ivysaur: This is pretty interesting. Ivy actually outranges Marth with several attacks (Razor Lead, Bullet Seed, Vine Whip, BAir), but all of them are fairly weak except for Vine Whip. That means you might need to get in a little too close for comfort to smash him a good one and into the abyss. Luckily, it's the tip and not the handle that deals out heavy damage. I'd say 5/5 even.

Charizard: Marth's sweetspot is the tip. Unfortunately for him, so is Charizard's on his Bair, FTilt, and DTilt, and it's easier to sweetspot with those then it is for Marth. Not to mention Charizard has pretty good power behind most of his attacks, and since not a lot of really good Marth players I've seen use Counter a lot anyway, it might be a good idea to simply pile on the damage. Rock Smash is, once again, your friend. 6/4 in favor of Charizard.

Also, Pokemon Switch > Marth's Final Smash. Heh heh.

For the record, since Steel2nd didn't mention this, Marth has a guaranteed Dair spike on Squirtle too. Meaning that if Squirtle is ever grabbed on any stage that leads to an edge, he is dead. He can Release Grab him to the ledge, let go and Dair Squirtle into the oblivion, and there is not a single thing he can do. The CG vs Squirtle is not the thread, as it isn't as damaging as normal ones. It's the fact that it leads to a spike that's the issue, and it's a big one.

As for the other three, I would only assume Marth has the advantage due to Ivysaur and Charizard being as laggy as they are. I could point out obvious disadvantages, but I will let someone more informed on the match up pick this apart.

Ivy can out range Marth a lot, in air and ground. (I'm not saying Ivy out classes Marth, I haven't played against too many Marths yet.. I'm not excepting challenges at the moment either)

I also read that Bithday Suit Samus can infinite grab-release Squirtle. Zelda/Sheik can also. If this chaingrab garbage starts affecting Squirtle, then I'm probably just going to go back to my old Melee main, Falco. I'm tired of character breaking exploits.

Edit: Wow, many other characters can chaingrab Squirtle as well...... Now scrubby characters like Peach can own Squirtle if they can get a grab off.
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Pfft..

Screw this...

I'm not having 2/3s of a character...

I'm probably going to re-main Falco because of this...

I hope you people have a good night..

'Cause I sure won't...

Squirtle: What can I say? He gets pwned.

Ivysauir: Neutral. Ivy can outrange Marth, but Marth, once he gets in, can stay in for a long time. It's essentially a game of whoever messes up first.

Charizard: Advantage. Charizard has the good grace to be able to deal with alot of stuff Marth dishes, and has an excellent shield grab,

tlink thanks for the matches earlier, feel free to post about what you noticed from my pt against your marth here! and maybe even your metaknight, its your most impressive character!

Onxy said:

Ivy can out range Marth a lot, in air and ground. (I'm not saying Ivy out classes Marth, I haven't played against too many Marths yet.. I'm not excepting challenges at the moment either)

I also read that Bithday Suit Samus can infinite grab-release Squirtle. Zelda/Sheik can also. If this chaingrab garbage starts affecting Squirtle, then I'm probably just going to go back to my old Melee main, Falco. I'm tired of character breaking exploits.

Edit: Wow, many other characters can chaingrab Squirtle as well......
...
...
...
Pfft..

Screw this...

I'm not having 2/3s of a character...

I'm probably going to re-main Falco because of this...

I hope you people have a good night..

'Cause I sure won't...

Click to expand...

Squirtle isn't a third of the character, man. He's more like a fifth. His screentime is very small. Besides, it's not like the fact he can be CGd is the end of the world. lol

If CGs were everything, ICs and D3 would be top tier, but ICs are still mediocre and D3 is only good.

Onxy said:

Ivy can out range Marth a lot, in air and ground. (I'm not saying Ivy out classes Marth, I haven't played against too many Marths yet.. I'm not excepting challenges at the moment either)

I also read that Bithday Suit Samus can infinite grab-release Squirtle. Zelda/Sheik can also. If this chaingrab garbage starts affecting Squirtle, then I'm probably just going to go back to my old Melee main, Falco. I'm tired of character breaking exploits.

Edit: Wow, many other characters can chaingrab Squirtle as well...... Now scrubby characters like peach can own Squirtle if they can get a grab off.
...
...
...
Pfft..

Screw this...

I'm not having 2/3s of a character...

I'm probably going to re-main Falco because of this...

I hope you people have a good night..

'Cause I sure won't...

Click to expand...

Chain grabs are nothing.

It's only the infinites that matter.

this isn't really a case of the short...tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny range grab range that IC's have, Dedede can even grab Squirtle like that, and deal an unneeded amount of damage.

Oh and for the record, Ivy can chain Squirtle as well. Might as well put that as a bigger than a 4x weakness for Squirtle vs Ivy, considering that Ivy already beats the turd out of Squirtle.

Except Squirtle is already at a hopeless disadvantage against D3, so it doesn't even matter. That goes for most characters that can do that to him too.

Characters that I'm sure that can Chain Squirtle...

Zelda
Peach
Sheik
BSZ
Ivy
D3
Gannondorf
Bowser
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Wario
Ike
Marth


That's a LOT of characters..

Except for Ganondorf, Sheik, Falcon, and Wario, he's bad against them anyway. Like I said, no big difference.

What about the other characters? I know you can escape it if you go crazy on your stick and buttons, but not always.

(what I mean is, instead of him jumping in the air and doing and STUPIDLY not being able to do anything, he can just back off instead.

Ok...

No, Charizard does not have an advantage against marth... at all.

Marth's F-tilt beats Charizard's f-tilt and d-tilt in range, and so does d-tilt.

Marth's f-smash also beats charizard's f-smash but you have to make sure you hit the f-smash as the hitbox comes out. If so it will outprioritize.

All of the above signifigantly outrange rock smash.


Really, charizard can't compete with Marth's groundgame.



In general charizard is too slow in the air to do much against Marth so, no. Fair still works against charizard (lack of knockback on the edge of the flames gives marth more then enough room to fair), and bair also seems to lose against Marth's fair (can't say this confidently yet, haven't tested enough, but it seems to be the case).


Really, people underestimate Marth WAY too much, this match-up is easily in Marth's favor.


Ivysaur is too telegraphed and Marth punishes him easily, so again, Marth's advantage.


In closing, the entire PT team is at a disadvantage vs. Marth, with one being a major disadvantage (squirtle).

"Ivysaur is too telegraphed and Marth punishes him easily, so again, Marth's advantage."

I hear this too often, and as if the Ivy user can't make his attacks work at all. I doubt you can telegraph a whole arsenal of moves.

Marth has to have absolutely perfect spacing every time or he's getting grabbed, and Charizard CGs him for 3 throws from 0, and that often means Marth is just dead. His air game isn't better than Zard's.

Ftilt gets grabbed. Dtilt gets grabbed. Dancing blade gets grabbed especially. It's not easy to outspace Charizard.

"Really, people underestimate Marth WAY too much"

This seriously made me lol. People underestimate Marth? Poor saps.

For the purpose of speed: Marth's Fair = Charizard's Bair.

Oh yeah, Charizard and Ivysaur can gimp Marth every bit as easily as Marth can gimp them.

Elliot Gale said:

Oh yeah, Charizard and Ivysaur can gimp Marth every bit as easily as Marth can gimp them.

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Now you've done it! You're going to unleash the full power of PKM Trainer hate!

By telling the truth? Marth's recovery is balls and gets hogged almost effortlessly by Ivy's hanging tether, and the way Zard goes about it isn't much different.

Onxy said:

"Ivysaur is too telegraphed and Marth punishes him easily, so again, Marth's advantage."

I hear this too often, and as if the Ivy user can't make his attacks work at all. I doubt you can telegraph a whole arsenal of moves.

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Actually, it's pretty easy, all you need is enough start-up lag, which Ivy has.

Elliot Gale said:

Marth has to have absolutely perfect spacing every time or he's getting grabbed, and Charizard CGs him for 3 throws from 0, and that often means Marth is just dead. His air game isn't better than Zard's.

Ftilt gets grabbed. Dtilt gets grabbed. Dancing blade gets grabbed especially. It's not easy to outspace Charizard.

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Spacing is Marth's game, he's both fast and precise enough to outspace 'zard.

Really, we're talking about players at the top of the game, so the fact that MK's dtilt outspaces Marth's ftilt by 3 pixels matters in the match-up (that's fact alone is why the Marth boards consider MK a disadvantagious match-up, it means that Marth can't outspace MK, so we gotta rely on defense).

We gotta assume that both players will be spacing precisely and consider the match-ups in such terms, if charizard can't outspace Marth, then Marth has the ground advantage, and charizard is on the defense. Sure, he's got a good counter, under 45 he can bring Marth to 45... but after that, not much to punish Marth with, especially since Marth's f-tilt and d-tilt are extremely safe moves.

Why is his air-game not better then 'zard's praytell? Zard's fair doesn't have knockback at enough range to stop the fair, and bair seems to have a similar issue. Unless you've got tests on this, I'd say it's fair to say that Marth's range coupled with speed give him the airgame edge.

Onxy said:

"Really, people underestimate Marth WAY too much"

This seriously made me lol. People underestimate Marth? Poor saps.

For the purpose of speed: Marth's Fair = Charizard's Bair.

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You're not from the East coast, are you?

Marth is considered... well let's just say nobody believes he's good around here.

But in general people tend to give him WAY too many unwarrented disadvantages.


And aerials don't clank, which wins?

Elliot Gale said:

By telling the truth? Marth's recovery is balls and gets hogged almost effortlessly by Ivy's hanging tether, and the way Zard goes about it isn't much different.

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Not really, he's got a good vertical recovery and his neutral B gives a good horizontal.

Plus it's got a good hit, and he's floaty enough to keep in the air for a bit... great for using up invincibility frames so he can up-b you into getting stage-spiked.

Less of an issue for Ivy, but Ivy is far easier to edgehog, and Ivy will be off the ledge first in general.

Both aerials hit, I didn't say clank.

I am from the east, I guess I'm just ignorant.

Ivy and Zard are probably among the most underrated characters in the game. Everytime someone says Ivy, someone yells Telegraph, and I'm sure you can easily Telegraph many other characters, considering that even Ivy's Fsmash starts up quicker than many attacks, and people just don't acknowlege it.

Noone mentioned that Ivy seriously out ranges Marth in the air.

Onxy said:

Both aerials hit.

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Nice to know.

I am from the east, I guess I'm just ignorant.

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I guess your local community is better then most then.

Ivy and Zard are probably among the most underrated characters in the game. Everytime someone says Ivy, someone yells Telegraph, and I'm sure you can easily Telegraph many other characters, considering that even Ivy's Fsmash starts up quicker than many attacks, and people just don't acknowlege it.

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I agree, but not against Marth.


As for telegraphed, the vast majority of his attacks come out quite slow. F-smash isn't bad for Ivy, but it's still a bit slow, and definitely slower then Marth's equivalent.


Oh, and I think you misunderstand what telegraphing is, telegraphing is when you indicate what you're doing before you do it (telegraphs were old forms of sending information, sort of like phones), so "telegraphing" is sending your opponent a message about what you're going to do before you do it.

Which Ivy does a lot unfortunately for him.

That's why, when in melee range, you don't attack with Ivy, you bait, and respond. If your opponent isn't in lag, they can respond too easily to your attacks. Which Ivy does pretty well actually, the upside of telegraphing moves tend to be that they're powerful.

adumbrodeus said:

Spacing is Marth's game, he's both fast and precise enough to outspace 'zard.

Really, we're talking about players at the top of the game, so the fact that MK's dtilt outspaces Marth's ftilt by 3 pixels matters in the match-up (that's fact alone is why the Marth boards consider MK a disadvantagious match-up, it means that Marth can't outspace MK, so we gotta rely on defense).

We gotta assume that both players will be spacing precisely and consider the match-ups in such terms, if charizard can't outspace Marth, then Marth has the ground advantage, and charizard is on the defense. Sure, he's got a good counter, under 45 he can bring Marth to 45... but after that, not much to punish Marth with, especially since Marth's f-tilt and d-tilt are extremely safe moves.

Why is his air-game not better then 'zard's praytell? Zard's fair doesn't have knockback at enough range to stop the fair, and bair seems to have a similar issue. Unless you've got tests on this, I'd say it's fair to say that Marth's range coupled with speed give him the airgame edge.

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Is he? Zard's grab range is huge. Marth has no approach against Flamethrower. Rock Smash's range is also really deceptive, and none of Marth's moves actually BEAT the rock.

Yeah, I know what we're considering, but people will make mistakes and will make them often - that's how the game works. It's all about trickery. I play this match-up A LOT, so I figure I would know it well by now. As far as I know, I'm one of the top PTs, at least around the board anyway.

Marth's Ftilt has nasty cooldown lag, so whether it's really safe or not is in question. Marth's dtilt crawls. The fact that it crawls means it gets grabbed. If Marth gets grabbed, he dies provided the off stage game is played correctly. All he has to fight back off-stage is Fair. Okay, evade the Fair, then Fly to the ledge to prevent Dolphin Slash. Counter? Waited out and Dair'd. <_>

Zard's Fair, Bair, and Dair are all effective kill moves, and that's what you need to have off-stage. Marth's air game, save Dair, doesn't necessarily net you the kill.

I mentioned speed 'cause I think you mentioned it. I stated my sentence wrong, sorry. I might have read yours wrong too. I know what telegraphing is.

You can Fsmash for the kill if Marth makes a mistake that is visible to the player. Same could be said for most attacks, though (except for characters like Caption, Squirtle, Yoshi, or other no range characters)


You...you agree that Ivy is underrated? She is sooooooooo underrated, that I'm suprised that you said this... go to the G&W boards, under the G&W vs PT thread.... it's Ivyawful. I'm prepared for more Ivy hate later, wait 'till sunrise, then you will see what goes on.

Ivy does out range the crap out of Marth a lot though, when talking about range, lol.

Off topic: Why is DK>Meta Knight?

Mk has the same range as DK, but quicker, and DK doesn't have that much grab range to punish. (he has a lot, but is it enough?? Hmmmm, lol.)

Elliot Gale said:

Is he? Zard's grab range is huge. Marth has no approach against Flamethrower. Rock Smash's range is also really deceptive, and none of Marth's moves actually BEAT the rock.

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I tested it, they outrange rock smash.

As for flamethrower, DI out, attack above it with aerials.

Yeah, I know what we're considering, but people will make mistakes and will make them often - that's how the game works. It's all about trickery. I play this match-up A LOT, so I figure I would know it well by now. As far as I know, I'm one of the top PTs, at least around the board anyway.

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Yeah, but we can't assume trickery will work.

Remember, Marth can play trickery games too, mindgames are important, and which character inherently wins a match-up decides who needs to be better at mindgames to win.

Marth's Ftilt has nasty cooldown lag, so whether it's really safe or not is in question. Marth's dtilt crawls. The fact that it crawls means it gets grabbed. If Marth gets grabbed, he dies provided the off stage game is played correctly. All he has to fight back off-stage is Fair. Okay, evade the Fair, then Fly to the ledge to prevent Dolphin Slash. Counter? Waited out and Dair'd. <_>

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You can through another ftilt before zard hits grab range, if you space well that is.

dtilt's IASA frame's give it same issue for grabbing.


Provided the off-stage game is played correctly...

But the fact is that Marth has better options to play the off-stage game then zard does, and is faster off-stage as well.

Sure you can play those tactics, but Marth's fair kills all of zard's aerials except bair. All it takes is proper timing, and you have to force him back to keep him from recovering.

Zard's Fair, Bair, and Dair are all effective kill moves, and that's what you need to have off-stage. Marth's air game, save Dair, doesn't necessarily net you the kill.

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All of Marth's aerials killed when tipped... period.

In general, they're built to wall, to keep people off the edge continuously, but when Marth wants to space them for a kill, they kill at quite low percents off-stage.

Onxy said:

I mentioned speed 'cause I think you mentioned it. I stated my sentence wrong, sorry. I might have read yours wrong too. I know what telegraphing is.

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You can Fsmash for the kill if Marth makes a mistake that is visible to the player. Same could be said for most attacks, though (except for characters like Caption, Squirtle, Yoshi, or other no range characters)

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A lot of attacks are not made to be used offensively, they're better to punish. Even Marth's significantly faster f-smash is not used in a directly offensive manner often, it's just not safe on the block.

Also, it depends on the match-ups, in some match-ups, Ike's nair is a safe approach, others it isn't.

In this particular match-up, f-smashing before Marth has made a mistake will probably make you eat his f-smash.

You...you agree that Ivy is underrated? She is sooooooooo underrated, that I'm suprised that you said this... go to the G&W boards, under the G&W vs PT thread.... it's Ivyawful. I'm prepared for more Ivy hate later, wait 'till sunrise, then you will see what goes on.

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Yep, Ivy has good moves for punishing, a reasonable projectile, and a nice jab (primarily because of it's disjointed hitbox). He's got issues, (G&W being one), but definitely not ivyawful.

double post...