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The Scientific Method: Alternatives?

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AltF4

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One of the greatest achievements man has developed throughout all ages has been "The Scientific Method". In a nutshell, it is a step-by-step outline on how to arrive at "truth". Truth is the ultimate goal of science, and consequently the scientific method.

The Scientific Method can be generally described as taking these steps:
1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

(Ripped right from Wikipedia)

I trust that you're all fairly familiar with this from middle school science class.



The Scientific Method as we know it has gone through many revisions and alterations throughout the ages, but the main emphasis remains the same:
-Gather a set of incomplete data
-Speculate as to what the data indicates
-Test your speculation

It seems so intuitive that we can hardly think of an alternative. Can there be an alternative to what we today call The Scientific Method, which will steer us toward truth?


As it turns out, there may be. Here is a good article which describes some of it. But here is the gist:

We may just be on the brink of a new age. The Information Age made the world smaller and more connected, but the next big development may just change everything: Quantum Computing. Some major engineering tasks were recently solved which may just make Quantum Computers a reality within a decade.

A Quantum Computer can easily reach speeds of more than quadrillions of times faster than today's machines. This massive increase in efficiency will have profound effects on the entire world, but for us, it may just usher in the death of the Scientific Method.

Incomplete data may just be a thing of the past. Why model data when you can just enumerate? We won't need to create theoretical models for incomplete data because it may be possible to just get more data until the picture becomes clear.

A good example is language translation (as the article I posted mentions). Google is able to translate foreign languages by sheer enumeration. Rather than modeling "meanings" to words and trying to infer context, we can simply associate phrase to phrase and word to word. With enough data, the picture becomes clear. As a result, Google can translate languages is does not "understand" in the slightest.

NEW: To be perfectly clear, one of the major things that Quantum Computing brings to the table is the reduction (or elimination in most cases) of intractability. Data becomes "intractable" when there is so much of it that it becomes unusable.

A common example of intractability is a reverse phone book lookup. Imagine taking a phone book, and trying to find a name to match a given number! Phone books are alphabetized so that you can find a number for a given name easily. But doing it backwards (finding a name to match a given number) is a difficult task. It would take far too long for you to try and do it. Now imagine that it wasn't just a local phone book, but a global one! That would be intractable data indeed.

Quantum Computers would be able to search through vast data sets with ease, ridding ourselves of the confines of intractability. (Or at least pushing the envelope sufficiently far).

Data from experiments as well as mundane details can be stored in grand volumes, and later analyzed as a whole. It would be like trying to analyze and inspect the entire internet collectively. But this is something not in principle unreasonable for the future. Data would no longer be used and then discarded, as is essentially done today. It can all be recycled and placed into a singe repository for later inspection.



Do you think this new method is a viable alternative to the "Scientific Method" as we know it? Or perhaps you have another idea for something else? As always, thanks for reading.
 

Stroupes

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I thought the Scientific Method was always Retest, then publish. But I guess it's no big difference.

More to the point, I believe anything that can advance the truth in the scientific perspective, we should definately aim for, even if the Scientific Method works. Perhaps other methods work better.
 

cF=)

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This looks to be the laziest, yet most effective method of discovering the underlying patterns of our universe.
 

AltF4

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It works by brute force, essentially!

Rather than forming models on how we think the world behaves, we instead just gather immense amounts of data and just follow the statistics. A main reason we use the Scientific Method as we know it is because we are always short of data. For example...


Imagine a game on a graphing calculator, where every second the calculator puts a dot on the screen. The dots will form some pattern according to an unknown formula, and will appear in a random spot along the pattern. The object of the game is to observe the dots and figure out the formula.

The Scientific Method would tell us to observe a bunch of the dots, make a guess as to what the pattern is, and then make a prediction for future dots. If any of your predictions turn up false, then your guess is wrong, and keep trying.

But what if you could speed up your calculator? Instead, make it put down millions of dots at a time! Well, then your job just got easier. You don't have to make up silly guesses about the pattern, you just use your speedy calculator and fill in any blanks your curious about.
 

blazedaces

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Alt, I don't see how having any amount of data is going to make the scientific method any different.

The amount of data we can attain may become millions of times greater, but it will not reach infinite (held back by us simply not being able to collect that much data in the real world). Therefore, our conclusions will be finer and we will have more confidence in them using these quantum computers, but it will in no way be a replacement in any way to the scientific method.

-blazed
 

arrowhead

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It works by brute force, essentially!

Rather than forming models on how we think the world behaves, we instead just gather immense amounts of data and just follow the statistics. A main reason we use the Scientific Method as we know it is because we are always short of data.
how would we gather the massive amounts of data? does the computer create it based on correlation?
 

AltF4

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There are some obvious examples where this won't apply. If data can only produced so fast, then you're stuck.

But what if the data already exists? A lot of information is already present / can be present on the internet. Ad companies (IE: Google) use this sort of thinking. They know by analyzing and sifting through the massive amount of traffic that goes through their services, that people who are searching for *blank* are a certain percent likely to later visit *blank*. And can use this information to serve them more appropriate ads.

They don't need to form theoretical models about human behavior, and what ideas are associated to what. It doesn't even require human thought. The computers just track the correlation to a strong enough of a degree that it's worthy of making a prediction for.


I guess using that terminology helps: The current Scientific Method tries to determine Causation from Correlation. But what if we go overboard on Correlation to the point where actual causation is irrelevant? The whole point of figuring out causation is so that you can predict more correlations! But if you've already got those correlations then you're set to begin with. Does that help?
 

RDK

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I'm also a bit confused as to how this would work. I'm slightly familiar with the concept of quantum computers, but I'm lost on their practical application.

Is it an odd form of reverse engineering, where give it a certain amount of information about a system and it fills in the rest through correlation? I get the calculator game analogy, I guess I'm just failing to see how it parallels into actual application.
 

cman

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Massive amounts of data would certainly change the method, but i would also say, certainly not do away with the need for it. Even with massive amounts of data, a conclusion still needs to be drawn. That conclusion, however, may be much easier to draw and the method would be simplified and shortened.

This article seems to be under the assumption that as long as we know that things happen and can predict exactly what will happen, then knowing the underlying causes and forces becomes obsolete, which is a view i don't share.
 

arrowhead

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alt: i think i get it now. thanks!

This article seems to be under the assumption that as long as we know that things happen and can predict exactly what will happen, then knowing the underlying causes and forces becomes obsolete, which is a view i don't share.
for SOME issues we don't need to know the whys. that's why alt asked "can this be a viable alternative" not "does this replace".
 

MojoMan

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I think that statistics shown in a massive amount of previous data don't prove anything. Be they 3 or 3 million, nothing can beat just testing the facts in the good old scientific method.
 

Amide

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I agree we need a new system. The scientific method is outdated and inefficient. Guessing and testing works, but it takes an extremely long amount of time. Getting data with data would be a great step forward.
 

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AltF4: If correlation can lead to a conclusion with 99% certainty and more correlation leads to a conclusion of 99.999999999999% certainty, why is this relevant? You're simply not making sense to me because I feel you're not understanding the scientific method correctly (no offense).

Google ads try to predict the ads that a person A will most likely click based on previous data. The more data we have, the more accurate we can make a prediction. It's simple statistics. The only change that ever occurs is when a person goes to a different link or clicks a different ad. When that happens another data point is added and the prediction is recalculated. This prediction can get more and more accurate with more data (as said already), but that's all. You can never fully predict a person will click the ad.

Correlation will never replace causation.

-blazed
 

AltF4

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Yes, arrowhead, good!

I think I made the statement too strong when I said "the death of the scientific method" (as the article I posted would seem to suggest as well). It's meant as an alternative. But even then it would be quite significant.

Blazed:

Well, what exactly IS causation anyway? In real life, we're not talking about dots on a TI-89. The purpose to science isn't really "to find truth" but rather to make improvements to life. If we had a magical 8-ball which told us what to do and always produced positive results, then sure we'd use it! Even if what it said wasn't "true", if it produces improvements, then that's all we can ask for.

Newtonian Physics isn't the "truth", but it produces useful results.

If enumeration of enormous amounts of data produces results that we can use, results that improve life, what does it matter if it is the fundamental "truth". That might not satisfy our intellectual curiosity, but it produces usable results.


All:

Updated section in OP. Labeled it as "NEW:"
 

blazedaces

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Blazed:

Well, what exactly IS causation anyway? In real life, we're not talking about dots on a TI-89. The purpose to science isn't really "to find truth" but rather to make improvements to life. If we had a magical 8-ball which told us what to do and always produced positive results, then sure we'd use it! Even if what it said wasn't "true", if it produces improvements, then that's all we can ask for.

Newtonian Physics isn't the "truth", but it produces useful results.

If enumeration of enormous amounts of data produces results that we can use, results that improve life, what does it matter if it is the fundamental "truth". That might not satisfy our intellectual curiosity, but it produces usable results.
Usable results are useful.

The truth is better.

That's the answer. Newtonian physics was useful. The theory of relativity is better. The theory of everything will be better. Our goal is still the truth, because the truth is correct under all circumstances, while usable results can often be incomplete or not usable under all circumstances.

-blazed
 

RDK

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I disagree that the sole goal of science is to improve life; this goal can arguably only be used describing applied science. I think a major goal, if not the main one, is to fully analyze the world around us, and to gain as big an understanding of it as possible. Improving life is just a side effect of gaining knowledge.

Although I do agree that acquiring "truth" is more philosophical than scientific, it's still a big part of science.
 

MojoMan

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Well, science, by definition, is the body of knowledge and theory dealing with things in nature and the universe, and with the forces that create shape, and form them, from a dictionary. but it's uses in today's modern world are more sinister. Many scientists' jobs are to create the most deadly device or concoction possible to kill another human being. The human race has spiraled off into not caring about "truth" but caring about who wins, be it in war or even friendly competition. So another question to bring up is; would it really benefit the human race to make science more efficient if it can be used for killing and evil?
 

AltF4

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What?!

I mean... that's just so absurd it almost doesn't even dignify a response. Not only is your statement non-sequitor, but it is at the very least wildly misinformed. I'm at a loss for words.

If you have anything of value to add to the conversation, you may do so. But I am not going to sit here and debate with you whether science as a whole is beneficial to the human race.

*continue regular discussion*
 

MojoMan

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Well, maybe that was a bit much. I'm not talking about science as a whole like that, and I do recognize that there are many, many scientists whose endeavors are solely based on their pursuit of knowledge, but there are some who work for the government or are convinced by the government to design something terrible for war, Einstein and the atom bomb as a classic example. I'm simply saying that the faster the scientific method becomes, the faster the human race becomes more dangerous.
 

AltF4

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And I'm saying that you're completely off topic. If you'd like to start a thread about that, then please do.

In the meantime, do you perhaps have anything to add to... I don't know... what this thread is about?
 

MojoMan

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Okay, here's a little something (And if i get off topic, tell me). The suggestion is that we use massive amounts of previous data as evidence, correct? But if we are testing something completely new and unheard of, what will we use as previous data?
 

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Okay, here's a little something (And if i get off topic, tell me). The suggestion is that we use massive amounts of previous data as evidence, correct? But if we are testing something completely new and unheard of, what will we use as previous data?
then it won't be applicable
 

MojoMan

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then it won't be applicable
If so, that means that we can never test something that has not been tested or considered before, and scientists could not do anything more than they already have done (I'm not sure if my grammar was so perfect there).
 

arrowhead

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If so, that means that we can never test something that has not been tested or considered before, and scientists could not do anything more than they already have done (I'm not sure if my grammar was so perfect there).
yes, but alt asked if this could be a good alternative, not a replacement, so it doesn't matter if it's not universally applicable
 

MojoMan

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true, true. But either way, I still think this new method is sort of the lazy way out of using the good old scientific method, which almost always works.
 

arrowhead

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but it's very practical for things like search engines where all you need is efficiency through very high correlation
 

MojoMan

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Well, it all depends. Would it take longer to find a massive amount of previous information than to just do the experiment? In most cases, it isn't, and for those, yes, I'll admit that it is more efficient to find previous information.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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Okay, here's a little something (And if i get off topic, tell me). The suggestion is that we use massive amounts of previous data as evidence, correct? But if we are testing something completely new and unheard of, what will we use as previous data?
If we're testing something "unheard of" how would we even know that we are testing it? But I don't understand your question anyway, what evidence are you talking about? We don't need previous evidence to make a model of something new to compare to future experiments.

Anyway, I don't know if this is getting too technical or not, but since science ultimately is a statistical thing, I thought I might bring up the nature of interpreting probability. There are two major frameworks, which are the "classical" or "frequentist" (probably what people generally think of), and the Bayesian, which attributes the idea of a 'degree of belief' to probability. It seems that, from my experiences in the Debate Hall, that many people find 'degree of belief' to be distasteful, but I'm not sure why. Anyone have musings about this subject, or is this too esoteric?
 

AltF4

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Bayesian probability is used a lot in AI and other areas of computers. But I'm sure you knew that!

I think that the universe has a single answer for us to find, a universal truth. And in that respect it isn't entirely accurate to speak of what the truth is in terms of degrees of belief.

But it models our experiences well. It's much like taking a test where you don't know all the answers. Clearly, there is a single set of correct answers. There are no objective probabilities that one answer is right versus another. But from the student's point of view, there are degrees of belief. So yes, it is quite applicable.


Did you guys read the new section I said I added in the OP? The one about intractability. I think that explains things very well.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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I think that the universe has a single answer for us to find, a universal truth. And in that respect it isn't entirely accurate to speak of what the truth is in terms of degrees of belief.
Well, what about things like Heisenberg Uncertainty? We know that there are no "hidden variables" underlying the nature because of Bell's theorem. I mean, Schrodinger's equation IS deterministic, yes, but bringing things from a quantum to a macroscopic level doesn't seem to be. Wouldn't a 'universal truth' have to do away with that somehow?

Did you guys read the new section I said I added in the OP? The one about intractability. I think that explains things very well.
I read it, it was interesting, but it doesn't really seem to be disjoint from the scientific method so much as it is a revolutionary addition to the data analysis toolbox.
 
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