TLMSheikant
Smash Master
I took back the thread because I saw no progress with DTL's matchup discussions. This time we'll be rediscussing matchups in tier order, once a week in export matchup threads. I'll link to them from here and the OP will contain everything about the matchup. No more looking through the thread to find the matchup post. Also, instead of me writing summaries, you're gonna be posting YOUR thoughts on the matchup and after the week is done Im going to search the thread for every informative post and post them in the OP. Please post in this format:
* Ratio (ex 55:45 Toon Link)
* Toon Link's advantages in the matchup (ex able to camp bla bla...)
* Other Character's advantages in the matchup (ex outcamps Toon Link...)
* Stages to counterpick/ban/strike (ex Strike Yoshi's and Lylat, CP FD and ban Frigate...)
* Things to keep in mind ( ex Snake's ftilt is mad disjointed...)
* Tactics/Attacks that help with the matchup (ex Running away... )
* Dealing with X Char's moves (ex space well)
Well, with that said lets start with this.
New Discussions:
Rediscussions
Click the character icons to go to their rediscussion threads.
- Strong Disadvantage 65-35
-Disadvantage 60-40
- Even 50-50
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- Slight Disadvantage 55-45
- Slight Advantage 55-45
- Slight Advantage 55-45
- Slight Disadvantage 55-45
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-Advantage 60-40
-Even 50:50
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- Strong Advantage 65-35
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Currently rediscussing:
Sheik
Yeah. That's sounds pretty good...well...not good...but you know what I mean...
Old Discussion Summaries:
Rediscussion #1
Metaknight Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Strong Disadvantage 65:35
Best stage to fight Metaknight on:
Final Destination
Worst stage to fight Metaknight on:
Rainbow Cruise
Summary:
Meta Knight is an agile character with a nearly lagless moveset making him very overwhelming at times to fight. Luckily, Toon Link is good at playing keepaway even against Meta Knight. Bombs help a lot in this matchup mainly due to breaking the tornado and because they can be used whenever you're under pressure.
If a Meta Knight starts down air camping (using his jumps and down air to stay above you and pressure you), you can run away and throw an angled up boomerang, or run below him and throw a bomb up or be risky and use back air. When he grabs and down throws you, you have the option of DI'ing to the side and zair limiting a lot of his followups. However, a good Meta Knight will pick up on this and tornado the next time so make sure to mix it up. The problem with the matchup is that Meta Knight can gimp Toon Link very easily. His down air and offstage edeguarding game are probably the best in the game.
However, Toon Link can still make it back to the stage. Boomerang helps a lot to stop a dairing Meta Knight in his tracks. Always have a bomb in hand when offstage. Bombs can save you from getting gimped in a a variety of ways: 1- You can recover low with one in hand, throw it up toward Meta Knight, double jump up B safely to the ledge. 2- Throw the bomb backwards and use back air to defend yourself. 3- Hold the bomb after getting hit by his down air (DI it upwards) so that when you upB, you get another upB doubling your chances for recovery. You can also use upair if you are not holding a bomb, it will beat Meta Knight's dair.
His most common kill moves are down smash, neutral air and shuttle loop. Against down smash DI up, bair and fast fall, you can also use double jump dair to recover high. Against nair, DI up and momentum cancel with bair. Against grounded shuttle loop, DI to the side and against aerial shuttle loop, DI up. Also, invincibomb is great in this matchup. It can beat an aerial shuttle loop and it's great for landing onstage.
TL;DR- Camp him as much as you can, be patient, use bombs to force mistakes and punish them and don't get gimped.
Rediscussion #2
Olimar Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Slight Disadvantage 55:45
Best Stage to fight Olimar on:
Frigate Orpheon
Other good stages to fight Olimar on:
-Jungle Japes
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Island
-Rainbow Cruise
Worst Stage to fight Olimar on:
Luigi's Mansion
Other stages you should avoid:
-Pirate Ship (if legal)
-Final Destination
Summary:
Olimar is a very campy character with a lot of powerful tools to camp and keep the camping going. Olimar with his pikmin game shuts down Toon Link's camp game almost completely if not completely. His pikmin make it almost impossible to use bombs effectively in the matchup since if you have a pikmin latched onto you and you throw the bomb it will explode in your face and cause damage to yourself. His pikmin also block boomerang and arrows. Because of this, Toon Link has to play aggresive and get through Olimar's spam. Neutral Air breaks through pikmin and will be used the most in this matchup to approach usually followed up by an arrow cancel. Beware as his purple pikmin wont be killed by nair.
His pivot grab has low cooldown and a lot of range so be on the lookout for it while approaching. His blue pikmin give him the most range while grabbing. His white pikmin have the most damage output with side b but are weak at everything else. His red pikmin have a lot of knockback and are generally used for finishing aerials and KO moves. His yellow pikmin have low knockback and electric hitlag with multihit moves such as upair allowing for more combos. His purple pikmin hit hard and do a lot of damage and are generally used to KO with uthrow or as a proyectile with side b. (they dont latch and do damage instead) Everytime you are grabbed expect to be combo'd a lot :/. They can follow up their down throw with an upsmash and if you dont DI the upsmash to the side they can combo you with aerials too if you arent careful.
Olimar's biggest weakness is his recovery. So whenever you have the opportunity, go for the gimp. Zair to dash attack at the edge of the stage works wonders for this. Nair and fair is also a good offstage edgeguard. Beware of his whistle though, it has super armor frames and good olis use it to avoid gimps. If you get Olimar very far offstage, just edgehog and prepare to press L/R exactly when the olimar uses upB (like in melee) that way you dont get hit by the upB and risk being stagespiked and you gimp Olimar at the same time. If Olimar is close enough to you while trying to recover, he can upair, nair or fair to get you off the ledge and then upB to get back safely so be careful of that too.
Back air, Neutral air, Zair, jab, Boomerangs and arrow cancels are your most effective tools in this matchup. The best stages to fight Olimar is generally stages where you can abuse his recovery problem easier and small stages without a lot of space to close the gap quickly. You will want to avoid stages like norfair and pirate ship where there are lots of ledges/water to allow Olimar to recover. Good stages to fight Olimar on are Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes and Battlefield. (because of its small size)
Olimar also kills Toon Link a lot easier than Toon Link can kill him which is the biggest problem in the matchup for Toon Link aside from having to approach and being badly outcamped.
Moves to watch out for:
Side B, UpSmash, Grab, Pivot Grab, Forward Smash, Down Smash, Neutral Air, Up Air, Forward Air, Back Throw, Upthrow, Down throw.
Moves that are very useful in this matchup:
Jab, Neutral Air, Zair, Back air, Boomerang, Arrow Cancels. Dont forget to mix it up.
TL;DR- Do not camp olimar, dont use bombs, beware of pivot grabs while approaching, DI his throw combos and gimp him. Hyro: Nair to arrow cancel
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Rediscussion #3
Marth Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Slight Disadvantage 55:45
Best Stage to fight Marth on:
Worst Stage to fight Marth on:
Summary:
Marth is very agile and overall a balanced character. He relies on his sword and range to keep his opponents at bay. He outranges Toon Link which is a problem. The only move Toon link has that outranges him is Zair. At times, it may be difficult to camp marth because his sword destroys boomerangs and arrows on contact. Remember to use your proyectiles to force reactions and punish them. Bombs are great in this matchup. As they set him up for your sword. At long range, Toon Link has the advantage. Unfortunately Marth is very fast and closes gaps quickly. Avoid being in tipper range at all times. At point blank range we have the advantage over Marth but remember that it will be hard to get to point blank range against a marth with good spacing. Killing is kinda even, Marth's kill moves are very unsafe except for tipper neutral air and that is sometimes hard to hit with. Toon Link isnt so safe at killing either but generally doesnt have too much trouble putting Marth in the air above him and getting the kill. Marth is horrible against people below him, abuse this with bair, upair, etc while reading their airdodge or reaction. Marth also has a lackluster recovery and can be gimped fairly easy but Marth can also gimp Toon Link.
A Marth will generally be spacing with fairs, dtilt and baiting reactions to punish with his dancing blade. His dancing blade is annoying. If you shield it, hold your shield until he completes it and then grab/nair him OoS. Beware as the Marth can also trick you with DB1 into holding your shield and then grabbing you. If Marth grabs Toon Link at 0% he can fthrow>fsmash you without any hope of escaping. Against Marth you will want to avoid small stages. Counterpick/go to big stages. Best stages to fight Marth on are FD because there are no platforms and theres a lot of room to camp, Halberd because of the low ceiling and there's enough room to camp especially in the ship and norfair because you can camp him to death and it makes it easier to kill him. Battlefield is bad because its a small stage allowing him to close the gap easier and Marth loves platforms.
Also, Marth's usual juggling game isnt as effective against Toon Link thanks to the options he has to defend himself against juggling: ibomb, bomb drops, bomb throws and the rare and risky down air. Remember to DI up if Marth hits you offstage with his fair. Also, if you manage to hit him with a down smash at the edge of the stage(as rare as that may be) its an auto stock loss for the Marth.
TL;DR- use proyectiles to bait Marth and punish his reactions, get him above you, gimp him, dont get gimped yourself.
Rediscussion #4
Ice Climbers Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Slight Advantage 55:45
Best Stage to fight Ice Climbers on:
Rainbow Cruise
Worst Stage to fight Ice Climbers on:
Final Destination
Summary:
The Ice Climbers are a very interesting and good character with a very steep learning curve. Their best attribute is their ability to desynch and of course their ability to turn one grab into death. Ice Climbers will mainly be forcing openings for a grab with their desynchs. Fortunately, Toon Link can be very very difficult to land a grab on...and if that wasnt enough bombs and returning boomerang will interrupt the Ice Climbers in their attempt to infinite. Remember to always have a bomb in hand in this matchup. Boomerangs are very good to use in this matchup too. As a returning boomerang can save you from an infinite attempt. Your goal in this matchup is to camp as much as you can while holding a bomb and being very careful of not being grabbed. You can also camp them in platform stages but make sure to look out for their upair.
I wouldnt advice using zair too much as it is highly telegraphed and can lead into a powershield grab. So if you are going to use zair make sure to space it as best as you can and dont be predictable with it. In this matchup you will want to camp them long enough so that u can kill them with your safe on block aerials like back air and nair. Do not commit to using laggy kill moves for the sake of going for the kill. Remember that at the slightest lag, you WILL get grabbed and if the ice climber player knows what he is doing, he will make that grab a 0 to death.
Counterpick moving stages like rainbow cruise, norfair, frigate orpheon or battlefield as they can mess a lot with the timing of the ice climbers chain grab in the unfortunate even that you are grabbed. Ban flat small stages like Final Destination and Smashville as they make the Ice Climbers have an easier time getting a grab. Also, it is highly recommended that you learn how to mash the controls really quick as it can let you break before they regrab if done fast enough.
TL;DR: Dont commit to laggy moves even more so than other matchups, always hold a bomb, camp them, camp them and learn to mash the buttons very quickly as it can get you of the grab if done fast enough if you are grabbed without a bomb.
Rediscussion #5
Kirby Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Slight Advantage 55:45
Best Stage to fight Kirby on:
Final Destination, Halberd can also be very good.
Worst Stage to fight Kirby on:
Jungle Japes avoid at all costs.
Summary:
Kirby is a very good character with some great, ranged, speedy moves like back air and a very good grab game. Kirby's moveset is very well designed for close combat. Unfortunately for Kirby, he lacks moblity both in the air and on the ground. Making him susceptible to camping. Kirby's back air is his most used move, it can kill (but its so commonly used that the mayority of the time its too stale to kill until very high percents), comes out in frame 8 and has a lot of range so watch out for that. It can also cancel boomerang and arrows.
Bombs cannot be cancelled by Kirby's moves and it is probably the most useful thing TL has against Kirby, setting kirby up for your sword stuff. If a kirby is aircamping you and he has the lead just chuck an angled boomerang at him and throw bombs at him to force a reaction and punish accordingly with upair/back air/etc. Beware of his grab combos at low percents he can follow up his fthrow with upair and if you dont SDI/DI the upair he can reverse utilt to back air you too. Kirbies also like to down throw, wait for a reaction and punish your reaction with back air, up air, uptilt or grab to another down throw.
Kirby is very good offstage and can gimp Toon Link if you are too predictable while recovering. Remember that our upair, back air, boomerang and bombs beat his down air. Some Kirbies also downb if they see you recovering below the stage so watch out for that as it can lead to a stagespike. Kirby is very light making him die rather early even against TL. But even then, Toon Link is also rather light and with kirby's insane power on his forward smash he can generally kill you faster than you can kill him. Zair can be a little tough to space properly againt kirby. His grab range is very good and hes very short making it even harder to hit with. The reason Toon Link has the edge is because Kirby is very susceptible to camping due to his poor mobility and bombs are generally very hard for Kirby to deal with especially when combined with angled boomerangs. Kirby also dislikes disjointed hitboxes a lot and Toon Link has a lot of those so he's not exactly defenseless upclose either. Toon Link's range with back air, nair and zair can give kirby some trouble upclose.
Halberd is a very good stage to fight Kirby on due to its size and the low vertical ceiling giving Toon Link an edge in killing. Final Destination is probably the best though. It has lots of room to camp and run which is our biggest advantage in the matchup. Jungle Japes is a horrible stage for Toon Link. I suggest banning it against Kirby. It gives Kirby a very very big advantage. The ceiling is very high limiting Toon Link's killing a lot. While not affecting Kirby at all. Kirby can also gain a lead and camp the platforms which limits a lot of what you can do. He also has no trouble recovering from the water and can Kirbycide and survive while you die. The matchup becomes like 70:30 Kirby there, so ban it. Rainbow Cruise is also a very good Kirby stage but it isnt so bad as playing Kirby on Jungle Japes. So if JJ is legal in your area ban it immediately XD and if it isnt then ban Rainbow Cruise.
TL;DR- This is a very close and evenish matchup though generally, Toon Link has less trouble. Kirby will want to get in Toon Link's face as soon as possible and try to stay there. While Toon Link will want to avoid that and play a mid/long range combat game.
Rediscussion #6
Luigi Matchup Rediscussion Thread
60-40 Advantage
Best Stage to fight Luigi on:
Worst Stage to fight Luigi on:
Summary:
Luigi is a very good character with low range and poor mobility but with a lot of killing power and combos. He has very good aerials. His upair is a very deadly juggling tool, his nair is a frame 3 gtfo move with a lot of priority, his fair has almost no cooldown lag, his back air has a lot of range and his dair is also very good and can spike. But Luigi's aerials arent the only thing he has going for him. He also has 2 very dangerous kill moves that can kill Toon Link at around 50-60% (UpB) and 90-95% (Angled Up Forward Smash). Toon Link must play very careful and not commit to any lag inducing moves even less than in other matchups. Never ever try to grab in this matchup as it will lead to an early upB kill for Luigi if you happen to miss. The risk outweighs the reward, even if you are sure that you will grab him do not do it and go for something else.
Luigi has poor moblity both in the air and on the ground which makes our proyectiles give him a lot of trouble when he is trying to approach. Luigi will often try to get past your proyectiles with his downb (tornado) because it travels fast and cancels arrows. Just throw a bomb at him if he's doing that or zair him out of it, you can also shield it and nair OoS. He might also approach with short hopped fireballs. If he does this, just zair him as it will cancel the fireball and hit Luigi and possibly allow for a nair follow up. What gives Luigi a lot of trouble in the matchup is getting past our proyectile brickwall (mainly angled up boomerang for aerial approaches and bombs/arrows/forward rang/zair for ground approaching) without eating a lot of damage in the process and not being swatted away with our sword when he finally does. Killing goes to Luigi for obvious reasons. One mistake can mean death with his upB or his fsmash. While we struggle (like always) to land our kill moves.
Ban stages with platforms like battlefield/Halberd as it aids Luigi in his combo/juggling game. Counterpick flat stages with a lot of space to keep our camping game going like Final Destination and Delfino Plaza. If you get hit by his jab at 50 to 60 percent, make sure to DI it down or away.
TL;DR- Camp him, dont let hit get too close or you will eat a lot of damage, dont try to grab, be careful of his upB/fsmash.
Rediscussion #7
King Dedede Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Even 50:50
Best Stage to Fight DDD on:
Worst Stage to Fight DDD on:
Summary:
King Dedede is a character that can make each and everyone of your mistakes hurt a lot. His insane grab range and chain grab make him a really big threat upclose. He is also very heavy so dont be surprised if the DDD lives up to 150% or more. While he kills you with uptilt at around the 100s. His back air can gimp Toon Link, always make sure to DI it up so that you dont get gimped. His recovery also covers a lot of distance but it is rather...predictable if he is forced to use his upB. Toon Link can somewhat challenge DDD's grab range with his zair but i wouldnt recommend overusing it since that can mean a grab opportunity for the DDD if he expects it. His forward tilt can also make it a little tough to use zair effectively at times thanks to its range.
Toon Link isnt done for on the matchup though. King Dedede is a very big target making him susceptible to our normal combos and VERY susceptible to our camping game. Bombs are very useful as always as well as boomerang. Short hop double arrow also works surprisingly well in this matchup. Make sure to grab the shield approach happy DDDs too! When going for the kill, get DDD offstage and force him to use his upB by harassing his second jumps with ur proyectiles. When he does upB, read what hes going to do and usmash/fsmash.
Norfair, Final Destination, Battlefield, Pirate Ship (if legal) and Smashville are all very good places to take DDD to. Avoid Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Frigate Orpheon and Rainbow Cruise.
TL;DR: Mix up your recovery, camp him, space your aerials properly, avoid his grab game,
dont recklessly try to kill since u will eat a chain grab.
Rediscussion #8
Zelda Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Strong Advantage 65-35
Best Stage to Fight Zelda on:
Worst Stage to Fight Zelda on:
Summary:
Zelda. A character that was thought at the beginning of the game to have a lot of potential, now in low tier :/. Anyways, Zelda has a couple of things going for her but usually dont make up for her devastating bad qualities. Which are her horrible recovery (not distance wise), avoid getting juggled, predictability and the fact that she doesnt have a very good camping or approach game. She has very good kill moves however and a very decent ground game. Her forward smash, usmash, dtilt and down smash are all very good. Fsmash has very good range and very little cooldown. Zeldas normally use this for spacing. If you get hit by it, hold up or SDI up to avoid getting hit by all the hits. Her down smash comes out insanely fast (frame 4), has good knockback and a very great trayectory for gimping so always be on the lookout for it. Her down tilt sets you up for a variety of stuff so its best to avoid it altogether. USmash *****.
Zelda's aerial game is spectacular but very situational and they usually cant get her out of trouble. Her most reliable aerial is neutral air but it has bad range. Abuse her lack of a good anti juggle game whenever u get her in the air. Dont just recklessly charge in though since a misspaced aerial can mean a lightning kick to the face and you wont enjoy those (they kill at around 80% with DI). Back air is great for abusing zelda's unrealible air game and racking up good damage. Upair is a great kill move in this matchup too. Zelda is also very light making our killing problem easier to deal with.
The camping game is definetely in our advantage. Faster, better and less laggier spam with bombs and zair. Be careful with your usage of boomerang and arrow cancels as dins will burn right throught them and damage you. Zair is absolutely great for poking and harassing zelda from mid range. Her options against zair are very limited. Always be careful of obvious airdodging because zeldas like to take advantage of that with her upair which can kill very early.
Avoid stages with little room to camp as they will make zelda have an easier time approaching you. Ex. Castle Siege, Battlefield, etc. Counterpick stages with a lot of room to camp like Final Destination, etc.
TL;DR- Camp her, juggle her, zair her, get her offstage, be careful of Din's when using boomerang/arrows.
Rediscussion #9
Wario Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Even 50-50
Best Stage to fight Wario on:
Other good stages against Wario:
-Smashville
Worst Stage to fight Wario on:
Other bad stages to fight Wario on:
-Castle Siege
-Brinstar
Moves to watch out for: ()
Bite, Fair, Dair, Nair, Uair, Bair, 1:30-1:55 Waft, Fsmash, DACUS, Grab
Moves that are very useful in this matchup: ()
Bair, Boomerang, Bombs, Upair, Zair, Nair, Usmash, Utilt, Fair
Miscellaneous:
*Arrows/bombs can gimp Wario when he is recovering with his bike.
*Warios love the air. Forcing them to watch out for the boomerang AND your sword can come in handy.
*Back air makes Wario's approach from the air very difficult.
*If he tries to bite you onstage, throw a bomb and them hit him with a strong move.
Rediscussion #10
:gaw:
Game and Watch Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Slight Advantage 55:45
Best Stage to fight Game and Watch on:
Other good stages:
-Smashville
-Yoshi's Island brawl
-Halberd
Worst Stage to fight Game and Watch on:
Other bad stages:
-Corneria
-Green Greens
Moves to watch out for:
Back air (turtle), Jab, Down throw, UpB, Fair, Nair, Upair, Down air, Smashes, Down Tilt
Moves that are useful in this matchup:
Back air, Zair, Bombs, Boomerang, Upair, Nair, Usmash
Summary:
G&W bucket braking and good kill moves can give us problems. In the same time our items and speed can give G&W some problems. G&W is also able to spotdodge TL's grab after a B-air so be wary of that as it can mean a free smash or grab to a down throw tech chase. Zair outranges his turtle through and bombs will beat the back air too . GnWs down tilt beats out toonlinks projectiles. His upair can also give you a lot of trouble. Just be patient and dont down air or airdodge, just DI to the side and avoid the wind so u can get back to safe ground. An ibomb can work to get you out of a juggling situation too.
Learn the timing for teching the down throw and mix up your getup to avoid getting tech chased too much. Being predictable with your teching can spell trouble for you (or a smash attack at high percents). You want to be far away from GaW, if on a large stage you will win by keeping your distance. Do not try to get too close and keep pressuring him with your proyectiles, and try to kill with moves like Uair that dont have much commitment. Zair is very good in this matchup as it outranges most, if not all of G&W's approaches. Be wary of a spaced Key, it can get past an Uair and it can KO you if its not diminished and you are on high %.
TL;DR- Lots of bomb and spaced zair, avoid his smashes, dont get upair'd, tech the down throw in different and unpredictable ways.
Rediscussion #11
Pikachu Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Slight Advantage 55-45
Pikachu frame data by K Prime
Best Stage to fight Pikachu on:
Battlefield
Other good stages:
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Island
Worst Stage to fight Pikachu on:
Final Destination
Other bad stages:
-Smashville
-Rainbow Cruise
Summary:
A very evenish matchup. Usually Toon Link has less trouble than pikachu though thanks to his range advantage and camping. Toon Link also kills Pikachu earlier than Pikachu can kill him too. Pikachu will want to get in close and rack up as much damage as possible with each approach. Pikachu will use Full hop thunderjolts to look for an opening. Toon Link will want to stay away from Pikachu and abuse his bombs, zair and rang to make Pikachu's approaching rather difficult.
Thunderjolts cancel arrows and boomerang but that doesnt mean you shouldnt use them, they are still helpful in this matchup. Bombs will be your most used proyectile though, since it stops Pikachu's QAC, goes through Thunderjolts and Pikachu generally has trouble getting through them. Zair also goes through Thunderjolts and its great range can cause a lot of headache to Pikachu's bad range. Beware of Pikachu's thunder when recovering, its an excellent edgeguard and Toon Link's linear UpB makes it even more of a threat. Dont crossup Pikachu's shield so much at 30ish percents because the Pikachu might upair OoS footstool QAC lock which means death, of course if the Pikachu doesnt mess up. ALWAYS DI his usmash and be on the lookout for potential thunder kills off the top. Bair is great in this matchup as always and outranges most of Pikachu's moves. Upair is one of Pikachu's best moves and down air beats it, that doesnt mean that you should spam it though like always, refrain from using Down Air much.
Stages: Generally you will want to avoid flat stages as it can be more difficult to camp pikachu in such stages. ie: FD, SV. And you will want to counterpick stages with lots of platforms to make his thunderjolt camping...less annoying. XD ie: Battlefield, YI.
Moves to watch out for the most:
QAC, Jolts, Upair, Nair, Fair, Utilt, Thunder, Fsmash, Upsmash.
Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Zair, Bombs, Boomerang, Bair, Utilt, Upair, Nair, Upsmash, Dair!?.
TL;DR- Pikachu is cool. And lrn 2 read walls of text noob.
Rediscussion #12
Diddy Kong Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Even 50:50
Best Stage to fight Diddy on:
Worst Stage to fight Diddy on:
Summary
Diddy is a very momentum-based character, he's either controlling the match or being controlled. Diddys are very annoying and use bananas to set up grabs, dash attacks to utilt and basically combos. You want to avoid bananas as much as you can because of this. Bombs are great in this matchup as they break through nanas. If you get a hold of one of Diddy's nanas you can either throw it away (so that he has to get another one) or Jump cancel throw it at him and follow up with a nair or UpSmash (killing %s or low % when u can still regen your upsmash with 10 more attacks). OoS shield nair is great for catching nanas, diddy will also get hit if he attempts to dash attack. ADZair is also a great move in this matchup as it outranges most of diddy's moves ( if not all) and can catch bananas in the process.
If you hit diddy while he's recovering with his upB, he will be stunned for a while (watch out for the barrels). You can use bananas, bombs and boomerang for this. Also, if ever a Diddy is forced to recover from below the stage its an easy tether-hog, you can also dair without much risk if he's directly below you and charging his upB. Be careful of diddy's monkey flip kick as it can go through arrows and boomerang. Ban Luigi's Mansion if it's legal, diddy is too gay there and Toon Link sucks in that stage. Rainbow Cruise is a very solid stage to take a Diddy to. But stages dont matter much in this matchup. Last but not least, you might want to learn to pickup bananas by cancelling ur dash and pressing A or insta AD catch (when theyre on the floor) to an instathrow. This'll make his bananas less annoying and limit his stage control a little more.
Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Bombs, Zair, Bair, Nair, UpSmash, Dash cancel Item pickup, insta AD catch, insta item throw, Arrows, Boomerang.
Moves to watch out for the most:
Bananas, Monkey Flip Kick, Grabs, Dash Attack, Fair, Bair, Fsmash, Dsmash.
Rediscussion #13
Lucario Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Even 50:50
Lucario frame data (Credit to phi1ny3)
Best stage to fight Lucario on:
Worst stage to fight Lucario on:
A good post by TwinkatGC about AS vs TL's proyectiles
Summary:
Lucario is a very unique character as you may already know. His attacks get stronger as he takes more damage. Toon Link can outcamp Lucario though. Bombs destroy aura spheres most of the time. Toon Link's problem in this matchup is getting the kill since Toon Link's kill moves are very predictable and lack power. And if the Lucario is at high percents, getting punished by Lucario because of a whiffed kill move usually means a lot of damage or a stock. Be careful of Lucario's Forward Smash, it has trascendent priority, a lot of range, power and almost no cooldown lag. If Lucario hits your shield with it, dont try to punish it as he will be able to act before you. Lucario's recovery is very lackluster. Usually an offstage Lucario can eat a lot of damage because his recovery doesnt attack at all; meaning you can hang from the ledge and he has no option but to aim his recovery to land on the stage letting you attack him in his lag. Good stages to fight a Lucario include Rainbow Cruise, Halberd and Lylat Cruise. You should ban Frigate Orpheon.
Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Bombs, Bair, Boomerang, Zair, Nair, Arrows, Fair
Moves that you should watch out for the most:
Fsmash, Jab to grab, Fair, Aura Sphere, Down Air
TL;DR: No TL;DR anymore. Lrn 2 read.
Rediscussion #14
Even 50:50
Fox Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Fox frame data
Best Stage to Fight Fox on:
Worst Stage to Fight Fox on:
Also avoid:
Halberd
Summary:
This match up is pretty even.
First of all, Toon out camps Fox. A lot of it has already been said, Bombs beat reflector, Toon has three projectiles and so on, but when it comes down to the amount of damage being dealt out, Toon out camps easy. So this puts Fox into a position that he doesn't want to be in. He has to approach.
Toon wins the spam war.
Landing the kill move. Toon, yes he can combo Fox and yes Fox can die early because of his light weight, but Toon can still have trouble killing believe it or not. Why? Because Fox should easilly be able to bait and punish all of Toon's killing moves. Fox on the other hand is the combo king, to the point where he can combo into his U-smash. So Fox won't have any trouble killing at all.
Fox wins the landing the kill move war.
As far as the early kill goes, Toon's recovery is quite good. If Fox tries to gimp his recovery Toon has his projectiles to stop any approach from up high in the air. So there really isn't any problem here. If the Toon is recovering from further below however, he has a problem. His options become more limited because of the fact that only his boomerang can be angled diagonally upwards, so if Toon wants to use his Bombs or arrows, he will need to use them right after the double jump. So presuming that he has already used his double jump and is now under the ledge again, he can angle the Boomerang upwards/towards the edge, try to hit you with a quick aerial if you come out (if Fox baits the aerial, it will pretty much mean that Toon has to use Up-B to recover), airdodge an attempted gimp, Tether and Up-B which can both be gimped.
As for Fox, recovering from up high is absolutely no problem. Does anyone even want to debate this point? Recovering down low, Fox has his shine stalling, Illusioning, Rising Fair and Up-B. The Illusion can be used in many ways and when combined with shine stalling, it can be a very versatile recovery. That said, Toon can actually deal with all of these situations. What the Toon can try to do, is force you to use your Up-B to recover by setting up a quick wall of projectiles to take out the Illusion on to stage then edge hog the Illusion to the ledge. This is presuming that you already used the rising Fair.
So I would say, that recovering high, they are equal. Recovering low, they are also equal if not then slightly in Fox's favor.
As for the BCDG, although Fox can technically make it back on stage (this is presuming that you remember to turn around in the shine, that the shine doesn't make recovering even harder by boosting you even further off stage when you use it, that you use Rising Fair then Instantly Illusion, all of this relying on you reacting instantly and not being like, wtf then reacting too late which is what usually happens.) now where was I, even though you can technically make it back on stage, you are still extremely gimpable because you only have that one way to make it back which = predictable. So don't tell me that the BCDG doesn't have an extremely high chance of taking a stock.
Up close, Fox wins hands down. His close combat is a lot faster and better than TL's.
Medium distance, Toon wins. Because he outranges Fox.
Long distance. Fox has his lasers and reflector, Toon has a smash thrown Boomerang and slightly charged arrows. Fox wins simply because at long range, Bombs no longer become a problem which means Fox can reflect whatever he wants and he can easilly power shield/avoid everything else.
Another thing that helps Fox is the fact that he doesn't have to worry about Toon's Grab. So he can get in his face and put pressure on his shield. Also, Toon's keep saying that the Bomb is everything and while this is true, with the amount of pressure you'll be under, you might find it hard to even find the time to pull out a Bomb. I'm not saying you won't be able to period, but having a Fox in your face will make it harder then usual.
-Excellent summary by Fox is Openly Deceptive. (thanx Fox lol)
You should watch out for:
Down Air, Nair, Bair, Utilt Chains, Usmash, Fair, Lasers, Shine.
Good moves in this matchup:
Utilt, Bair, Nair, Zair, Bombs! <3, Usmash, Dsmash, BCDS, Arrows.
Rediscussion #15
Wolf Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Even 50-50
Wolf Frame Data
Best Stage to Fight Wolf on:
Worst Stage to Fight Wolf on:
Summary:
In this matchup, you'll never see more bair....ever.
His bair is amazing and it's his main approach. But our bair is better when it comes to landing it. Bombs are great in this matchup as in all others (except lolimar). Use them, love them, etc. Both character have very predictable/situational kill moves so both have trouble landing the kill. Though arguably Wolf has less trouble. Thanks to an autocancellable fair and a very fast Down Smash. His reflector bounces back proyectiles at twice the speed and has invinci frames so watch out for that. Bair chains as always are amazing. Same with utilt, at low percents it isnt uncommon to be able to chain two utilts at least and put Wolf in an undesirable situation thereafter.
Wolf's upB is horrible and generally theyll try to avoid using it as much as they can and recovery horizontally. Though, if they happen to be forced into using upB from below...remember our dair outprioritizes it and u can also edgehog it easily. Zair is great for gimping Wolf too. Wolf's fsmash is a bad move but can catch unexperienced players offguard it is easy to shieldgrab or SDI up or even DI down and tech. Be careful of scarring on stages like Smashville and Yoshi's Island, that side b CAN kill. It can be punished with prediction though as he lands with laaaag. Watch out for Wolf's DACUS too, it has a ridiculous hitbox.
Moves to Watch out for the most:
DACUS, lazorz, side b, Down smash, Bair, Upair, Fair, Reflector
Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Bombs <3, Bairs, Nair, Utilt, Usmash, BCDS, Arrows, Zair
Rediscussion #16
Matchup Rediscussion Thread
60:40 Disadvantage
Best Stage to fight Snake on:
Other good stages:
Rainbow Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 1
Worst Stage to fight Snake on:
Other bad stages:
Battlefield
Frigate Orpheon
Lylat Cruise
Smashville (moving explosive)
Summary:
Camp wars! This matchup is about who can camp the best. They are both very even in camping with Toon Link having a bit more variety and a slight superiority in camping. Bombs from above are pretty good in this matchup just watch out and dont throw a bomb with a nade in front of you as that means both damage from the nade and the bomb. Also, beware of his DACUS when landing if you were bomb camping from above. Arrows can stop nades in their tracks and be a sorta good way to force him to approach you. Beware of him upclose, he totally wrecks Toon Link upclose. He is also a pain to kill. Zair is useful when coming down from air bomb camping because it can stop DACUS attempts and if spaced well, is completely unpunishable. Rising bair is very good in this matchup it can combo snake to oblivion, just make sure to space it right. Bomb to Upair and Fair will be your most reliable kill options as Usmash and utilt are too risky to use. And often mean an OoS Ftilt from the snake or a grab...and you dont want to get grabbed. If you DO get grabbed make sure to mix up your options as much as possible. But you shouldnt be getting grabbed much...you are Toon Link. At high percents beware of his wtfhaxutilt it comes out very fast and has deceiving range (im pretty sure u knew that lol). If you are in the air and at high percents I'd recommend b reversing an arrow to land in an unpredictable way. (You can also ibomb). Also, remember that while Snake's aerials are all very laggy, they have a lot of range and kill power in them so dont be overconfident if you get him in the air.
Halberd: We will be able to kill snake earlier but the same will apply when it comes to snake killing toonlink. Ban this stage first. Lylat is another stage that puts toonlink at a disadvantage. While toonlink has the ability to bomb camp from a safe distance, Snake can occupy 2 out of 3 of the platforms on the stage (with his C4 and Claymore) and proceed to punish toonlink as he attempts to return to the ground. Snake's explosives are not very visible on this stage at all. Smashville is good for snake because of the moving platform that snake can occupy with a C4 or Claymore
Other useful things to know: If toonlink happens to grab snake at low percentages, toon link will not be able to follow up with a back air/up tilt immediately. The snake user can just use bair as soon as you throw him.
Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Bombs, Rang, Arrows, Zair, Bair, Upair, Fair
Moves to watch out for:
Ftilt, Grenades, Utilt, DACUS, jab, Grab, his laggy air moves (dont underestimate them especially bair and nair)
* Ratio (ex 55:45 Toon Link)
* Toon Link's advantages in the matchup (ex able to camp bla bla...)
* Other Character's advantages in the matchup (ex outcamps Toon Link...)
* Stages to counterpick/ban/strike (ex Strike Yoshi's and Lylat, CP FD and ban Frigate...)
* Things to keep in mind ( ex Snake's ftilt is mad disjointed...)
* Tactics/Attacks that help with the matchup (ex Running away... )
* Dealing with X Char's moves (ex space well)
Well, with that said lets start with this.
New Discussions:
Rediscussions
- Strong Disadvantage 65-35-Disadvantage 60-40- Even 50-50-:- Even 50-50- Even 50-50- Slight Disadvantage 55-45- Slight Advantage 55-45- Slight Advantage 55-45- Slight Disadvantage 55-45- Slight Advantage 55-45-- Slight Advantage 55-45- Even 50:50------Advantage 60-40-Even 50:50-Even 50-50-:shiek:-
-- Strong Advantage 65-35-----------Currently rediscussing:
Sheik
Yeah. That's sounds pretty good...well...not good...but you know what I mean...
Old Discussion Summaries:
Rediscussion #1
Metaknight Matchup Rediscussion ThreadStrong Disadvantage 65:35
Best stage to fight Metaknight on:
Final Destination
Worst stage to fight Metaknight on:
Rainbow Cruise
Summary:
Meta Knight is an agile character with a nearly lagless moveset making him very overwhelming at times to fight. Luckily, Toon Link is good at playing keepaway even against Meta Knight. Bombs help a lot in this matchup mainly due to breaking the tornado and because they can be used whenever you're under pressure.
If a Meta Knight starts down air camping (using his jumps and down air to stay above you and pressure you), you can run away and throw an angled up boomerang, or run below him and throw a bomb up or be risky and use back air. When he grabs and down throws you, you have the option of DI'ing to the side and zair limiting a lot of his followups. However, a good Meta Knight will pick up on this and tornado the next time so make sure to mix it up. The problem with the matchup is that Meta Knight can gimp Toon Link very easily. His down air and offstage edeguarding game are probably the best in the game.
However, Toon Link can still make it back to the stage. Boomerang helps a lot to stop a dairing Meta Knight in his tracks. Always have a bomb in hand when offstage. Bombs can save you from getting gimped in a a variety of ways: 1- You can recover low with one in hand, throw it up toward Meta Knight, double jump up B safely to the ledge. 2- Throw the bomb backwards and use back air to defend yourself. 3- Hold the bomb after getting hit by his down air (DI it upwards) so that when you upB, you get another upB doubling your chances for recovery. You can also use upair if you are not holding a bomb, it will beat Meta Knight's dair.
His most common kill moves are down smash, neutral air and shuttle loop. Against down smash DI up, bair and fast fall, you can also use double jump dair to recover high. Against nair, DI up and momentum cancel with bair. Against grounded shuttle loop, DI to the side and against aerial shuttle loop, DI up. Also, invincibomb is great in this matchup. It can beat an aerial shuttle loop and it's great for landing onstage.
TL;DR- Camp him as much as you can, be patient, use bombs to force mistakes and punish them and don't get gimped.
Rediscussion #2
Olimar Matchup Rediscussion ThreadSlight Disadvantage 55:45
Best Stage to fight Olimar on:
Frigate Orpheon
Other good stages to fight Olimar on:
-Jungle Japes
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Island
-Rainbow Cruise
Worst Stage to fight Olimar on:
Luigi's Mansion
Other stages you should avoid:
-Pirate Ship (if legal)
-Final Destination
Summary:
Olimar is a very campy character with a lot of powerful tools to camp and keep the camping going. Olimar with his pikmin game shuts down Toon Link's camp game almost completely if not completely. His pikmin make it almost impossible to use bombs effectively in the matchup since if you have a pikmin latched onto you and you throw the bomb it will explode in your face and cause damage to yourself. His pikmin also block boomerang and arrows. Because of this, Toon Link has to play aggresive and get through Olimar's spam. Neutral Air breaks through pikmin and will be used the most in this matchup to approach usually followed up by an arrow cancel. Beware as his purple pikmin wont be killed by nair.
His pivot grab has low cooldown and a lot of range so be on the lookout for it while approaching. His blue pikmin give him the most range while grabbing. His white pikmin have the most damage output with side b but are weak at everything else. His red pikmin have a lot of knockback and are generally used for finishing aerials and KO moves. His yellow pikmin have low knockback and electric hitlag with multihit moves such as upair allowing for more combos. His purple pikmin hit hard and do a lot of damage and are generally used to KO with uthrow or as a proyectile with side b. (they dont latch and do damage instead) Everytime you are grabbed expect to be combo'd a lot :/. They can follow up their down throw with an upsmash and if you dont DI the upsmash to the side they can combo you with aerials too if you arent careful.
Olimar's biggest weakness is his recovery. So whenever you have the opportunity, go for the gimp. Zair to dash attack at the edge of the stage works wonders for this. Nair and fair is also a good offstage edgeguard. Beware of his whistle though, it has super armor frames and good olis use it to avoid gimps. If you get Olimar very far offstage, just edgehog and prepare to press L/R exactly when the olimar uses upB (like in melee) that way you dont get hit by the upB and risk being stagespiked and you gimp Olimar at the same time. If Olimar is close enough to you while trying to recover, he can upair, nair or fair to get you off the ledge and then upB to get back safely so be careful of that too.
Back air, Neutral air, Zair, jab, Boomerangs and arrow cancels are your most effective tools in this matchup. The best stages to fight Olimar is generally stages where you can abuse his recovery problem easier and small stages without a lot of space to close the gap quickly. You will want to avoid stages like norfair and pirate ship where there are lots of ledges/water to allow Olimar to recover. Good stages to fight Olimar on are Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes and Battlefield. (because of its small size)
Olimar also kills Toon Link a lot easier than Toon Link can kill him which is the biggest problem in the matchup for Toon Link aside from having to approach and being badly outcamped.
Moves to watch out for:
Side B, UpSmash, Grab, Pivot Grab, Forward Smash, Down Smash, Neutral Air, Up Air, Forward Air, Back Throw, Upthrow, Down throw.
Moves that are very useful in this matchup:
Jab, Neutral Air, Zair, Back air, Boomerang, Arrow Cancels. Dont forget to mix it up.
TL;DR- Do not camp olimar, dont use bombs, beware of pivot grabs while approaching, DI his throw combos and gimp him. Hyro: Nair to arrow cancel
.Rediscussion #3
Marth Matchup Rediscussion ThreadSlight Disadvantage 55:45
Best Stage to fight Marth on:
Worst Stage to fight Marth on:
Summary:
Marth is very agile and overall a balanced character. He relies on his sword and range to keep his opponents at bay. He outranges Toon Link which is a problem. The only move Toon link has that outranges him is Zair. At times, it may be difficult to camp marth because his sword destroys boomerangs and arrows on contact. Remember to use your proyectiles to force reactions and punish them. Bombs are great in this matchup. As they set him up for your sword. At long range, Toon Link has the advantage. Unfortunately Marth is very fast and closes gaps quickly. Avoid being in tipper range at all times. At point blank range we have the advantage over Marth but remember that it will be hard to get to point blank range against a marth with good spacing. Killing is kinda even, Marth's kill moves are very unsafe except for tipper neutral air and that is sometimes hard to hit with. Toon Link isnt so safe at killing either but generally doesnt have too much trouble putting Marth in the air above him and getting the kill. Marth is horrible against people below him, abuse this with bair, upair, etc while reading their airdodge or reaction. Marth also has a lackluster recovery and can be gimped fairly easy but Marth can also gimp Toon Link.
A Marth will generally be spacing with fairs, dtilt and baiting reactions to punish with his dancing blade. His dancing blade is annoying. If you shield it, hold your shield until he completes it and then grab/nair him OoS. Beware as the Marth can also trick you with DB1 into holding your shield and then grabbing you. If Marth grabs Toon Link at 0% he can fthrow>fsmash you without any hope of escaping. Against Marth you will want to avoid small stages. Counterpick/go to big stages. Best stages to fight Marth on are FD because there are no platforms and theres a lot of room to camp, Halberd because of the low ceiling and there's enough room to camp especially in the ship and norfair because you can camp him to death and it makes it easier to kill him. Battlefield is bad because its a small stage allowing him to close the gap easier and Marth loves platforms.
Also, Marth's usual juggling game isnt as effective against Toon Link thanks to the options he has to defend himself against juggling: ibomb, bomb drops, bomb throws and the rare and risky down air. Remember to DI up if Marth hits you offstage with his fair. Also, if you manage to hit him with a down smash at the edge of the stage(as rare as that may be) its an auto stock loss for the Marth.
TL;DR- use proyectiles to bait Marth and punish his reactions, get him above you, gimp him, dont get gimped yourself.
Rediscussion #4
Ice Climbers Matchup Rediscussion ThreadSlight Advantage 55:45
Best Stage to fight Ice Climbers on:
Rainbow Cruise
Worst Stage to fight Ice Climbers on:
Final Destination
Summary:
The Ice Climbers are a very interesting and good character with a very steep learning curve. Their best attribute is their ability to desynch and of course their ability to turn one grab into death. Ice Climbers will mainly be forcing openings for a grab with their desynchs. Fortunately, Toon Link can be very very difficult to land a grab on...and if that wasnt enough bombs and returning boomerang will interrupt the Ice Climbers in their attempt to infinite. Remember to always have a bomb in hand in this matchup. Boomerangs are very good to use in this matchup too. As a returning boomerang can save you from an infinite attempt. Your goal in this matchup is to camp as much as you can while holding a bomb and being very careful of not being grabbed. You can also camp them in platform stages but make sure to look out for their upair.
I wouldnt advice using zair too much as it is highly telegraphed and can lead into a powershield grab. So if you are going to use zair make sure to space it as best as you can and dont be predictable with it. In this matchup you will want to camp them long enough so that u can kill them with your safe on block aerials like back air and nair. Do not commit to using laggy kill moves for the sake of going for the kill. Remember that at the slightest lag, you WILL get grabbed and if the ice climber player knows what he is doing, he will make that grab a 0 to death.
Counterpick moving stages like rainbow cruise, norfair, frigate orpheon or battlefield as they can mess a lot with the timing of the ice climbers chain grab in the unfortunate even that you are grabbed. Ban flat small stages like Final Destination and Smashville as they make the Ice Climbers have an easier time getting a grab. Also, it is highly recommended that you learn how to mash the controls really quick as it can let you break before they regrab if done fast enough.
TL;DR: Dont commit to laggy moves even more so than other matchups, always hold a bomb, camp them, camp them and learn to mash the buttons very quickly as it can get you of the grab if done fast enough if you are grabbed without a bomb.
Rediscussion #5
Kirby Matchup Rediscussion ThreadSlight Advantage 55:45
Best Stage to fight Kirby on:
Final Destination, Halberd can also be very good.
Worst Stage to fight Kirby on:
Jungle Japes avoid at all costs.
Summary:
Kirby is a very good character with some great, ranged, speedy moves like back air and a very good grab game. Kirby's moveset is very well designed for close combat. Unfortunately for Kirby, he lacks moblity both in the air and on the ground. Making him susceptible to camping. Kirby's back air is his most used move, it can kill (but its so commonly used that the mayority of the time its too stale to kill until very high percents), comes out in frame 8 and has a lot of range so watch out for that. It can also cancel boomerang and arrows.
Bombs cannot be cancelled by Kirby's moves and it is probably the most useful thing TL has against Kirby, setting kirby up for your sword stuff. If a kirby is aircamping you and he has the lead just chuck an angled boomerang at him and throw bombs at him to force a reaction and punish accordingly with upair/back air/etc. Beware of his grab combos at low percents he can follow up his fthrow with upair and if you dont SDI/DI the upair he can reverse utilt to back air you too. Kirbies also like to down throw, wait for a reaction and punish your reaction with back air, up air, uptilt or grab to another down throw.
Kirby is very good offstage and can gimp Toon Link if you are too predictable while recovering. Remember that our upair, back air, boomerang and bombs beat his down air. Some Kirbies also downb if they see you recovering below the stage so watch out for that as it can lead to a stagespike. Kirby is very light making him die rather early even against TL. But even then, Toon Link is also rather light and with kirby's insane power on his forward smash he can generally kill you faster than you can kill him. Zair can be a little tough to space properly againt kirby. His grab range is very good and hes very short making it even harder to hit with. The reason Toon Link has the edge is because Kirby is very susceptible to camping due to his poor mobility and bombs are generally very hard for Kirby to deal with especially when combined with angled boomerangs. Kirby also dislikes disjointed hitboxes a lot and Toon Link has a lot of those so he's not exactly defenseless upclose either. Toon Link's range with back air, nair and zair can give kirby some trouble upclose.
Halberd is a very good stage to fight Kirby on due to its size and the low vertical ceiling giving Toon Link an edge in killing. Final Destination is probably the best though. It has lots of room to camp and run which is our biggest advantage in the matchup. Jungle Japes is a horrible stage for Toon Link. I suggest banning it against Kirby. It gives Kirby a very very big advantage. The ceiling is very high limiting Toon Link's killing a lot. While not affecting Kirby at all. Kirby can also gain a lead and camp the platforms which limits a lot of what you can do. He also has no trouble recovering from the water and can Kirbycide and survive while you die. The matchup becomes like 70:30 Kirby there, so ban it. Rainbow Cruise is also a very good Kirby stage but it isnt so bad as playing Kirby on Jungle Japes. So if JJ is legal in your area ban it immediately XD and if it isnt then ban Rainbow Cruise.
TL;DR- This is a very close and evenish matchup though generally, Toon Link has less trouble. Kirby will want to get in Toon Link's face as soon as possible and try to stay there. While Toon Link will want to avoid that and play a mid/long range combat game.
Rediscussion #6
Luigi Matchup Rediscussion Thread60-40 Advantage
Best Stage to fight Luigi on:
Worst Stage to fight Luigi on:
Summary:
Luigi is a very good character with low range and poor mobility but with a lot of killing power and combos. He has very good aerials. His upair is a very deadly juggling tool, his nair is a frame 3 gtfo move with a lot of priority, his fair has almost no cooldown lag, his back air has a lot of range and his dair is also very good and can spike. But Luigi's aerials arent the only thing he has going for him. He also has 2 very dangerous kill moves that can kill Toon Link at around 50-60% (UpB) and 90-95% (Angled Up Forward Smash). Toon Link must play very careful and not commit to any lag inducing moves even less than in other matchups. Never ever try to grab in this matchup as it will lead to an early upB kill for Luigi if you happen to miss. The risk outweighs the reward, even if you are sure that you will grab him do not do it and go for something else.
Luigi has poor moblity both in the air and on the ground which makes our proyectiles give him a lot of trouble when he is trying to approach. Luigi will often try to get past your proyectiles with his downb (tornado) because it travels fast and cancels arrows. Just throw a bomb at him if he's doing that or zair him out of it, you can also shield it and nair OoS. He might also approach with short hopped fireballs. If he does this, just zair him as it will cancel the fireball and hit Luigi and possibly allow for a nair follow up. What gives Luigi a lot of trouble in the matchup is getting past our proyectile brickwall (mainly angled up boomerang for aerial approaches and bombs/arrows/forward rang/zair for ground approaching) without eating a lot of damage in the process and not being swatted away with our sword when he finally does. Killing goes to Luigi for obvious reasons. One mistake can mean death with his upB or his fsmash. While we struggle (like always) to land our kill moves.
Ban stages with platforms like battlefield/Halberd as it aids Luigi in his combo/juggling game. Counterpick flat stages with a lot of space to keep our camping game going like Final Destination and Delfino Plaza. If you get hit by his jab at 50 to 60 percent, make sure to DI it down or away.
TL;DR- Camp him, dont let hit get too close or you will eat a lot of damage, dont try to grab, be careful of his upB/fsmash.
Rediscussion #7
King Dedede Matchup Rediscussion ThreadEven 50:50
Best Stage to Fight DDD on:
Worst Stage to Fight DDD on:
Summary:
King Dedede is a character that can make each and everyone of your mistakes hurt a lot. His insane grab range and chain grab make him a really big threat upclose. He is also very heavy so dont be surprised if the DDD lives up to 150% or more. While he kills you with uptilt at around the 100s. His back air can gimp Toon Link, always make sure to DI it up so that you dont get gimped. His recovery also covers a lot of distance but it is rather...predictable if he is forced to use his upB. Toon Link can somewhat challenge DDD's grab range with his zair but i wouldnt recommend overusing it since that can mean a grab opportunity for the DDD if he expects it. His forward tilt can also make it a little tough to use zair effectively at times thanks to its range.
Toon Link isnt done for on the matchup though. King Dedede is a very big target making him susceptible to our normal combos and VERY susceptible to our camping game. Bombs are very useful as always as well as boomerang. Short hop double arrow also works surprisingly well in this matchup. Make sure to grab the shield approach happy DDDs too! When going for the kill, get DDD offstage and force him to use his upB by harassing his second jumps with ur proyectiles. When he does upB, read what hes going to do and usmash/fsmash.
Norfair, Final Destination, Battlefield, Pirate Ship (if legal) and Smashville are all very good places to take DDD to. Avoid Halberd, Delfino Plaza
, Castle Siege, Frigate Orpheon and Rainbow Cruise.TL;DR: Mix up your recovery, camp him, space your aerials properly, avoid his grab game,
dont recklessly try to kill since u will eat a chain grab.
Rediscussion #8
Zelda Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Strong Advantage 65-35
Best Stage to Fight Zelda on:
Worst Stage to Fight Zelda on:
Summary:
Zelda. A character that was thought at the beginning of the game to have a lot of potential, now in low tier :/. Anyways, Zelda has a couple of things going for her but usually dont make up for her devastating bad qualities. Which are her horrible recovery (not distance wise), avoid getting juggled, predictability and the fact that she doesnt have a very good camping or approach game. She has very good kill moves however and a very decent ground game. Her forward smash, usmash, dtilt and down smash are all very good. Fsmash has very good range and very little cooldown. Zeldas normally use this for spacing. If you get hit by it, hold up or SDI up to avoid getting hit by all the hits. Her down smash comes out insanely fast (frame 4), has good knockback and a very great trayectory for gimping so always be on the lookout for it. Her down tilt sets you up for a variety of stuff so its best to avoid it altogether. USmash *****.
Zelda's aerial game is spectacular but very situational and they usually cant get her out of trouble. Her most reliable aerial is neutral air but it has bad range. Abuse her lack of a good anti juggle game whenever u get her in the air. Dont just recklessly charge in though since a misspaced aerial can mean a lightning kick to the face and you wont enjoy those (they kill at around 80% with DI). Back air is great for abusing zelda's unrealible air game and racking up good damage. Upair is a great kill move in this matchup too. Zelda is also very light making our killing problem easier to deal with.
The camping game is definetely in our advantage. Faster, better and less laggier spam with bombs and zair. Be careful with your usage of boomerang and arrow cancels as dins will burn right throught them and damage you. Zair is absolutely great for poking and harassing zelda from mid range. Her options against zair are very limited. Always be careful of obvious airdodging because zeldas like to take advantage of that with her upair which can kill very early.
Avoid stages with little room to camp as they will make zelda have an easier time approaching you. Ex. Castle Siege, Battlefield, etc. Counterpick stages with a lot of room to camp like Final Destination, etc.
TL;DR- Camp her, juggle her, zair her, get her offstage, be careful of Din's when using boomerang/arrows.
Rediscussion #9
Wario Matchup Rediscussion ThreadEven 50-50
Best Stage to fight Wario on:
Other good stages against Wario:
-Smashville
Worst Stage to fight Wario on:
Other bad stages to fight Wario on:
-Castle Siege
-Brinstar
Moves to watch out for: (
)Bite, Fair, Dair, Nair, Uair, Bair, 1:30-1:55 Waft, Fsmash, DACUS, Grab
Moves that are very useful in this matchup: (
)Bair, Boomerang, Bombs, Upair, Zair, Nair, Usmash, Utilt, Fair
Miscellaneous:
*Arrows/bombs can gimp Wario when he is recovering with his bike.
*Warios love the air. Forcing them to watch out for the boomerang AND your sword can come in handy.
*Back air makes Wario's approach from the air very difficult.
*If he tries to bite you onstage, throw a bomb and them hit him with a strong move.
Rediscussion #10
:gaw:
Game and Watch Matchup Rediscussion Thread
Slight Advantage 55:45
Best Stage to fight Game and Watch on:
Other good stages:
-Smashville
-Yoshi's Island brawl
-Halberd
Worst Stage to fight Game and Watch on:
Other bad stages:
-Corneria
-Green Greens
Moves to watch out for:
Back air (turtle), Jab, Down throw, UpB, Fair, Nair, Upair, Down air, Smashes, Down Tilt
Moves that are useful in this matchup:
Back air, Zair, Bombs, Boomerang, Upair, Nair, Usmash
Summary:
G&W bucket braking and good kill moves can give us problems. In the same time our items and speed can give G&W some problems. G&W is also able to spotdodge TL's grab after a B-air so be wary of that as it can mean a free smash or grab to a down throw tech chase. Zair outranges his turtle through and bombs will beat the back air too . GnWs down tilt beats out toonlinks projectiles. His upair can also give you a lot of trouble. Just be patient and dont down air or airdodge, just DI to the side and avoid the wind so u can get back to safe ground. An ibomb can work to get you out of a juggling situation too.
Learn the timing for teching the down throw and mix up your getup to avoid getting tech chased too much. Being predictable with your teching can spell trouble for you (or a smash attack at high percents). You want to be far away from GaW, if on a large stage you will win by keeping your distance. Do not try to get too close and keep pressuring him with your proyectiles, and try to kill with moves like Uair that dont have much commitment. Zair is very good in this matchup as it outranges most, if not all of G&W's approaches. Be wary of a spaced Key, it can get past an Uair and it can KO you if its not diminished and you are on high %.
TL;DR- Lots of bomb and spaced zair, avoid his smashes, dont get upair'd, tech the down throw in different and unpredictable ways.
Rediscussion #11
Pikachu Matchup Rediscussion ThreadSlight Advantage 55-45
Pikachu frame data by K Prime
Best Stage to fight Pikachu on:
Battlefield
Other good stages:
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Island
Worst Stage to fight Pikachu on:
Final Destination
Other bad stages:
-Smashville
-Rainbow Cruise
Summary:
A very evenish matchup. Usually Toon Link has less trouble than pikachu though thanks to his range advantage and camping. Toon Link also kills Pikachu earlier than Pikachu can kill him too. Pikachu will want to get in close and rack up as much damage as possible with each approach. Pikachu will use Full hop thunderjolts to look for an opening. Toon Link will want to stay away from Pikachu and abuse his bombs, zair and rang to make Pikachu's approaching rather difficult.
Thunderjolts cancel arrows and boomerang but that doesnt mean you shouldnt use them, they are still helpful in this matchup. Bombs will be your most used proyectile though, since it stops Pikachu's QAC, goes through Thunderjolts and Pikachu generally has trouble getting through them. Zair also goes through Thunderjolts and its great range can cause a lot of headache to Pikachu's bad range. Beware of Pikachu's thunder when recovering, its an excellent edgeguard and Toon Link's linear UpB makes it even more of a threat. Dont crossup Pikachu's shield so much at 30ish percents because the Pikachu might upair OoS footstool QAC lock which means death, of course if the Pikachu doesnt mess up. ALWAYS DI his usmash and be on the lookout for potential thunder kills off the top. Bair is great in this matchup as always and outranges most of Pikachu's moves. Upair is one of Pikachu's best moves and down air beats it, that doesnt mean that you should spam it though like always, refrain from using Down Air much.
Stages: Generally you will want to avoid flat stages as it can be more difficult to camp pikachu in such stages. ie: FD, SV. And you will want to counterpick stages with lots of platforms to make his thunderjolt camping...less annoying. XD ie: Battlefield, YI.
Moves to watch out for the most:
QAC, Jolts, Upair, Nair, Fair, Utilt, Thunder, Fsmash, Upsmash.
Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Zair, Bombs, Boomerang, Bair, Utilt, Upair, Nair, Upsmash, Dair!?.
TL;DR- Pikachu is cool. And lrn 2 read walls of text noob.
Rediscussion #12
Diddy Kong Matchup Rediscussion ThreadEven 50:50
Best Stage to fight Diddy on:
Worst Stage to fight Diddy on:
Summary
Diddy is a very momentum-based character, he's either controlling the match or being controlled. Diddys are very annoying and use bananas to set up grabs, dash attacks to utilt and basically combos. You want to avoid bananas as much as you can because of this. Bombs are great in this matchup as they break through nanas. If you get a hold of one of Diddy's nanas you can either throw it away (so that he has to get another one) or Jump cancel throw it at him and follow up with a nair or UpSmash (killing %s or low % when u can still regen your upsmash with 10 more attacks). OoS shield nair is great for catching nanas, diddy will also get hit if he attempts to dash attack. ADZair is also a great move in this matchup as it outranges most of diddy's moves ( if not all) and can catch bananas in the process.
If you hit diddy while he's recovering with his upB, he will be stunned for a while (watch out for the barrels). You can use bananas, bombs and boomerang for this. Also, if ever a Diddy is forced to recover from below the stage its an easy tether-hog, you can also dair without much risk if he's directly below you and charging his upB. Be careful of diddy's monkey flip kick as it can go through arrows and boomerang. Ban Luigi's Mansion if it's legal, diddy is too gay there and Toon Link sucks in that stage. Rainbow Cruise is a very solid stage to take a Diddy to. But stages dont matter much in this matchup. Last but not least, you might want to learn to pickup bananas by cancelling ur dash and pressing A or insta AD catch (when theyre on the floor) to an instathrow. This'll make his bananas less annoying and limit his stage control a little more.
Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Bombs, Zair, Bair, Nair, UpSmash, Dash cancel Item pickup, insta AD catch, insta item throw, Arrows, Boomerang.
Moves to watch out for the most:
Bananas, Monkey Flip Kick, Grabs, Dash Attack, Fair, Bair, Fsmash, Dsmash.
Rediscussion #13
Lucario Matchup Rediscussion ThreadEven 50:50
Lucario frame data (Credit to phi1ny3)
Best stage to fight Lucario on:
Worst stage to fight Lucario on:
A good post by TwinkatGC about AS vs TL's proyectiles
Summary:
Lucario is a very unique character as you may already know. His attacks get stronger as he takes more damage. Toon Link can outcamp Lucario though. Bombs destroy aura spheres most of the time. Toon Link's problem in this matchup is getting the kill since Toon Link's kill moves are very predictable and lack power. And if the Lucario is at high percents, getting punished by Lucario because of a whiffed kill move usually means a lot of damage or a stock. Be careful of Lucario's Forward Smash, it has trascendent priority, a lot of range, power and almost no cooldown lag. If Lucario hits your shield with it, dont try to punish it as he will be able to act before you. Lucario's recovery is very lackluster. Usually an offstage Lucario can eat a lot of damage because his recovery doesnt attack at all; meaning you can hang from the ledge and he has no option but to aim his recovery to land on the stage letting you attack him in his lag. Good stages to fight a Lucario include Rainbow Cruise, Halberd and Lylat Cruise. You should ban Frigate Orpheon.
Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Bombs, Bair, Boomerang, Zair, Nair, Arrows, Fair
Moves that you should watch out for the most:
Fsmash, Jab to grab, Fair, Aura Sphere, Down Air
TL;DR: No TL;DR anymore. Lrn 2 read.
Rediscussion #14
Even 50:50
Fox Matchup Rediscussion ThreadFox frame data
Best Stage to Fight Fox on:
Worst Stage to Fight Fox on:
Also avoid:
Halberd
Summary:
This match up is pretty even.
First of all, Toon out camps Fox. A lot of it has already been said, Bombs beat reflector, Toon has three projectiles and so on, but when it comes down to the amount of damage being dealt out, Toon out camps easy. So this puts Fox into a position that he doesn't want to be in. He has to approach.
Toon wins the spam war.
Landing the kill move. Toon, yes he can combo Fox and yes Fox can die early because of his light weight, but Toon can still have trouble killing believe it or not. Why? Because Fox should easilly be able to bait and punish all of Toon's killing moves. Fox on the other hand is the combo king, to the point where he can combo into his U-smash. So Fox won't have any trouble killing at all.
Fox wins the landing the kill move war.
As far as the early kill goes, Toon's recovery is quite good. If Fox tries to gimp his recovery Toon has his projectiles to stop any approach from up high in the air. So there really isn't any problem here. If the Toon is recovering from further below however, he has a problem. His options become more limited because of the fact that only his boomerang can be angled diagonally upwards, so if Toon wants to use his Bombs or arrows, he will need to use them right after the double jump. So presuming that he has already used his double jump and is now under the ledge again, he can angle the Boomerang upwards/towards the edge, try to hit you with a quick aerial if you come out (if Fox baits the aerial, it will pretty much mean that Toon has to use Up-B to recover), airdodge an attempted gimp, Tether and Up-B which can both be gimped.
As for Fox, recovering from up high is absolutely no problem. Does anyone even want to debate this point? Recovering down low, Fox has his shine stalling, Illusioning, Rising Fair and Up-B. The Illusion can be used in many ways and when combined with shine stalling, it can be a very versatile recovery. That said, Toon can actually deal with all of these situations. What the Toon can try to do, is force you to use your Up-B to recover by setting up a quick wall of projectiles to take out the Illusion on to stage then edge hog the Illusion to the ledge. This is presuming that you already used the rising Fair.
So I would say, that recovering high, they are equal. Recovering low, they are also equal if not then slightly in Fox's favor.
As for the BCDG, although Fox can technically make it back on stage (this is presuming that you remember to turn around in the shine, that the shine doesn't make recovering even harder by boosting you even further off stage when you use it, that you use Rising Fair then Instantly Illusion, all of this relying on you reacting instantly and not being like, wtf then reacting too late which is what usually happens.) now where was I, even though you can technically make it back on stage, you are still extremely gimpable because you only have that one way to make it back which = predictable. So don't tell me that the BCDG doesn't have an extremely high chance of taking a stock.
Up close, Fox wins hands down. His close combat is a lot faster and better than TL's.
Medium distance, Toon wins. Because he outranges Fox.
Long distance. Fox has his lasers and reflector, Toon has a smash thrown Boomerang and slightly charged arrows. Fox wins simply because at long range, Bombs no longer become a problem which means Fox can reflect whatever he wants and he can easilly power shield/avoid everything else.
Another thing that helps Fox is the fact that he doesn't have to worry about Toon's Grab. So he can get in his face and put pressure on his shield. Also, Toon's keep saying that the Bomb is everything and while this is true, with the amount of pressure you'll be under, you might find it hard to even find the time to pull out a Bomb. I'm not saying you won't be able to period, but having a Fox in your face will make it harder then usual.
-Excellent summary by Fox is Openly Deceptive. (thanx Fox lol)
You should watch out for:
Down Air, Nair, Bair, Utilt Chains, Usmash, Fair, Lasers, Shine.
Good moves in this matchup:
Utilt, Bair, Nair, Zair, Bombs! <3, Usmash, Dsmash, BCDS, Arrows.
Rediscussion #15
Wolf Matchup Rediscussion ThreadEven 50-50
Wolf Frame Data
Best Stage to Fight Wolf on:
Worst Stage to Fight Wolf on:
Summary:
In this matchup, you'll never see more bair....ever.
His bair is amazing and it's his main approach. But our bair is better when it comes to landing it. Bombs are great in this matchup as in all others (except lolimar). Use them, love them, etc. Both character have very predictable/situational kill moves so both have trouble landing the kill. Though arguably Wolf has less trouble. Thanks to an autocancellable fair and a very fast Down Smash. His reflector bounces back proyectiles at twice the speed and has invinci frames so watch out for that. Bair chains as always are amazing. Same with utilt, at low percents it isnt uncommon to be able to chain two utilts at least and put Wolf in an undesirable situation thereafter.
Wolf's upB is horrible and generally theyll try to avoid using it as much as they can and recovery horizontally. Though, if they happen to be forced into using upB from below...remember our dair outprioritizes it and u can also edgehog it easily. Zair is great for gimping Wolf too. Wolf's fsmash is a bad move but can catch unexperienced players offguard it is easy to shieldgrab or SDI up or even DI down and tech. Be careful of scarring on stages like Smashville and Yoshi's Island, that side b CAN kill. It can be punished with prediction though as he lands with laaaag. Watch out for Wolf's DACUS too, it has a ridiculous hitbox.
Moves to Watch out for the most:
DACUS, lazorz, side b, Down smash, Bair, Upair, Fair, Reflector
Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Bombs <3, Bairs, Nair, Utilt, Usmash, BCDS, Arrows, Zair
Rediscussion #16
Matchup Rediscussion Thread60:40
DisadvantageBest Stage to fight Snake on:
Other good stages:
Rainbow Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 1
Worst Stage to fight Snake on:
Other bad stages:
Battlefield
Frigate Orpheon
Lylat Cruise
Smashville (moving explosive)
Summary:
Camp wars! This matchup is about who can camp the best. They are both very even in camping with Toon Link having a bit more variety and a slight superiority in camping. Bombs from above are pretty good in this matchup just watch out and dont throw a bomb with a nade in front of you as that means both damage from the nade and the bomb. Also, beware of his DACUS when landing if you were bomb camping from above. Arrows can stop nades in their tracks and be a sorta good way to force him to approach you. Beware of him upclose, he totally wrecks Toon Link upclose. He is also a pain to kill. Zair is useful when coming down from air bomb camping because it can stop DACUS attempts and if spaced well, is completely unpunishable. Rising bair is very good in this matchup it can combo snake to oblivion, just make sure to space it right. Bomb to Upair and Fair will be your most reliable kill options as Usmash and utilt are too risky to use. And often mean an OoS Ftilt from the snake or a grab...and you dont want to get grabbed. If you DO get grabbed make sure to mix up your options as much as possible. But you shouldnt be getting grabbed much...you are Toon Link. At high percents beware of his wtfhaxutilt it comes out very fast and has deceiving range (im pretty sure u knew that lol). If you are in the air and at high percents I'd recommend b reversing an arrow to land in an unpredictable way. (You can also ibomb). Also, remember that while Snake's aerials are all very laggy, they have a lot of range and kill power in them so dont be overconfident if you get him in the air.
Halberd: We will be able to kill snake earlier but the same will apply when it comes to snake killing toonlink. Ban this stage first. Lylat is another stage that puts toonlink at a disadvantage. While toonlink has the ability to bomb camp from a safe distance, Snake can occupy 2 out of 3 of the platforms on the stage (with his C4 and Claymore) and proceed to punish toonlink as he attempts to return to the ground. Snake's explosives are not very visible on this stage at all. Smashville is good for snake because of the moving platform that snake can occupy with a C4 or Claymore
Other useful things to know: If toonlink happens to grab snake at low percentages, toon link will not be able to follow up with a back air/up tilt immediately. The snake user can just use bair as soon as you throw him.
Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Bombs, Rang, Arrows, Zair, Bair, Upair, Fair
Moves to watch out for:
Ftilt, Grenades, Utilt, DACUS, jab, Grab, his laggy air moves (dont underestimate them especially bair and nair)
