JayBee
Smash Champion
Find me on GameSpot! KojinSagara Productions HQ in Gamespot Forums!
Hello, I'm Kojin and welcome to the Laborotory for Sonic the Hedgehog. This thread's main function is for one purpose: to critically break down the matchups and techs, as well as the possible viable applicaions of moves and techs in very specific matchups and situations. I made this thread so that me and my friends have a place to post any findings or theories we may have, allow the others to test it, and bring in the results in order to streamline and expand upon the Sonic meta with new information. The goal is this Lab is simple: To move Sonic to mid-tier, or prove the possibility of such by the end of 2008. This is a difficult task, as the majority of the Smash Community barely give Sonic a thought as to his effectiveness in a major setting.
Now, keep in mind, that even though there may be disscusion about what his properties are, his moves, frames, etc, this is NOT a "complete guide to everything about Sonic" Things will most likely be proven useless in the end, but this will allow Sonic to grow. Most of the time, I may have some idea for a character matchup that I'd like to see tested/proven, and will post it here. Many others will do the same. Please, when an idea is given, do not flame or insult the person who posted it, it is not needed. Also, if you don't really have anything to say, then don't bother. I want to make this thread as professional as I can. Even if you are not a member you can post. Just be nice.
So, basically post an idea for Sonic that you think is viable, and the Sonic Lab will test it, test it, then test it again, then post results, possible variations, or other ideas. If it doesnt work, then fine. Its back to square one. Its a lab, there's bound to be trial and error, right? I'll start it off. feel free to test and debate.
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As of 8/11/08, there have been a number of things posted and checked that bore fruit, even in specific situations, that will help you increase your knowledge of sonic. It can't be helped, but there may be some info that you knew, but most of the info shown here are very specific and require setup, and are releatively advanced. Once again, if there are any issues, plz politely post.
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Here are some of the things developed/ discussed thru this thread
Discussion concerning the stage Frigate
It is an excellent counter pick that all sonics should use. it gimps tether recoveries and forces up b recoveries on the stage on the left side during the first part of the stages, making edgegaurding much easier. in addition, if you time it right when the stage flips, you can star KO your opponent or send them stuck under the stage.
Clashing as a strategy
It is now known that the first stage of ASC, side B and Dash A are strongest at the beginning, and that after the first stage of any SC, the priority is weakened. However, if spaced correctly, you can use this priority to you advantage to approach stronger characters due to its tendancy to clash with many of thier favorite attacks. search on your own and see that he can not only go through and clash with some projectiles, but against dash attacks and certain tilts and Smashes as well. This requires timing and an understanding of the stages of Sonic's SC and side B, located in tenki's threads.
: Tenki spittin some knowledge on ya on Sonic's upair.
This was said a long time ago, but people are just now realizing it still: Sonic's up air is ridiculous. spaced properly, Sonics can gain a tactical advantage after moves like Upthrow and FThrow against most of Brawl's cast.
The Kojin "combo"
(discovered by Kojin)a series of attacks that utilize primarily the Spring jump and the Dair. Based off the theory that the spring can be used offensively in special situations by members of the Sonic boards. can be set up after a successful grounded Spring attempt that sends the opponent flying upwards due to that spring. Sonic can immediately chase with the spring at certain percents, pass them, then dair back down on them, land then repeat. has been used with the non spiked dair to send them upwards and has the potential to score KOs. This requires some set up.
There has been success in Dairing a grounded spring repeatedly in order to confuse opponents above you and mistime thier airdodge, which can help uair kills. Also, since the attack box cancels each time you spring, you dairng so close to the floor means pounding a nearby foe with dairs, which when connects will send them upwads.
The altered Spin Shot (discovered by Kojin)
During an ASC'd Spin Shot, you can use Side B after a given point in the arc. Because of the nature of the side b to stop all side momentum during the charge, you can alter the path of the spin shot to simply drop downwards prematurely. This is useful in preventing a counter attack from an opponent who is used to its normal trejectory.
Kojin's Sonic Fighting Styles:
this list made last year has proven to be a unique measuring stick when examining Sonic's in videos as you learn. it allows u to more readily determine positive aspects in thier game, as well as their tendancies. there are a variety of sonic styles, so determining which one u are can be difficult
Combo type: This kind of Sonic plays very agressively, aiming to get the most out of all of his attacks to extend the combo as much as possbile. because of this they tend to overextend themselves, which can lead to disaster, more so then the other types. Though they can kill faster, the chance of making errors increase, meaning they may be killed just as fast.
Ground type this kind of Sonic player loves tilts, Jabs, Dash A, and Spins. These types tend to be really good with footsies, and have a keen eye for when to dodge, making them more difficult to grab. The only problem is, that this takes lots of skill, since Sonic's close up game is not great due to low priority.
Air type: These Sonic players are very skilled in particular with the Spring Jump, the ASC and its mixups, as well as having an advanced recovery set. it is harder to kill these Sonics than others, due to thier tendancy to Spring jump, or Spin Shot to safety. They use this to close the gap and initiate combos as well, revolving around the aerials. they will mix up with ASC>grab to keep you honest. However, the weakness of this is that predictability must be kept very low, or you may get punished severly once you land. In addition, Sonic is more vulnerable in the air in most cases due to lack of priority and his slow fall speed. though this player knows that and can nullify this to an extent, the issue still remains.
Grappler type: These Sonics use grabs, pummels and throws as thier primary offense, switching to other moves like smashes to mix it up. they understand sonic's speed well, and use it to close the gap quickly to punish on lag. After the throw, they are very solid at techchasing for more grabs, and mixing them up with smashes to keep the opponent honest. The one thing to really worry about, is that if the opponent takes the aerial approach to counter or plays keepaway often, then this sonic player cannot capitiolize as much, and must resort to other tactics. In addition, this type is very stage dependant.
Edge type: Once this Sonic player gets an opponent of the ledge, it become very difficult for the opponent to get back on, despite percentage. Sonic is a good gimper, but this player makes him annoyingly so. He is very solid in all edgegaurding tactics, from instant edgehog to Dair Spike> Homing attack, as well as wall bouncing and teching to prevent getting spiked himself. He goes for grapples near the edge, in hopes of stage spikes often, and is just as knowledgable with recovery as an air type. he is also equally as good getting back after getting knocked off, but in a more defensive manner than the Air type. if the opponent stays in the middle of the stage and is good at keepaway, then this type has issues.
Punish type: This is more of a balanced sonic, that utilizes his speed, and is very good with mindgames to create an opening for himself, rather then waiting for the opponent to make an unforced one. Once this Sonic gets it, he makes the most of it, with all of his moves. This one is very adapatble, defensive one moment, and agressive at any moment. because he uses many of his moves multiple times to punish, like the bair or the Fsmash, this weakens the attacks when its time for the kill. But this type is good at using most if not all methods of KOing to compensate.
Camper type: This Sonic can be considered the "slowest" of the Sonic types due to its more patient playstyle. It utilizes a lot of bairs, f tilts, and other movements to outmanuver and make the opponent commit unforced errors, which will lead into more subsequent damage from combos, throws, etc. This may not work if the opponent can get Sonic off balance with thier offence well, either by using overwhelming offense (MK) or an annoying projectile game (ROB) But against characters that need to get closer, sonic can use this style to his advantage and dictate the flow of the match and time. you will see many empty jumps, Foxtrorts, and other movements the use sonics dash to play outside of the opponents maximum range, forceing them to advance, or become very campy themselves, allowing the Sonic to slowly pick them apart.
Playstyles Analyzed:
Tenki(page 30)
Mr. 3000(pg 30)
Malcolm(pg 30)
RATS(pg 36)
Chis (pg41)
Puffball aka Espy (pg 49)
DjBrowny no Style
Camalange no Style
*New*
A big part of this thread is also to analyze the playstyle of the best sonic players so we can learn from them. If you wish to have your sonic looked at by me or the boards, post them here instead of making your own thread, if you want.
Kojin's Vids
"Shatter the Grounds"- A Kojin/Sonic video
"Acceleromaniac" A Kojin/Sonic vid
"What U Need" A Kojin/Sonic vid
Sonic and the F-Throw
"Mach Speed Generation": A Kojin/Sonic video
Sonic's iSDR edge camp
"Soko Da" A Kojin/Sonic vid
"Back to Back" A Kojin/SteakMatch vid
"Dash Dance Revolution" A Kojin/Sonic vid
These show my progression as a sonic player as I also try to showcase advanced elements of sonics game in combat, creating 'KojinSagara Productions' as a result. First created to practice sonic theories, it now intends to be a mainstay in the sonic community concerning Brawl.
