Olimar's Matchups (The numbers)

DanGR · Jul 26, 2008

Olimar's matchup numbers

-Don't confuse this with the stickied matchup thread. That one is to discuss a certain character, in depth, and to come up with strategies against that character to be editted into the OP. This is not a guide. This is here for everyone to see how Olimar fairs against the rest of the cast. We will discuss matchup odds and I'll put numbers next to each character. I know AiB has one, but it has some errors. >_>

-Be kind. Even if you disagree. Players are at different skill levels and fighting various skill level opponents. Yes, this project is about the highest level of metagame. So Noobies, don't post low level stuff that doesn't really work and pros... be nice to the noobs.

Big Advantages 70-30 through 90-10
Jigglypuff: 75-25
Zelda: 75-25
Captain Falcon: 70-30
Ganon: 70-30
Link: 70-30
Ike: 70-30
Samus: 70-30

Advantages 60-30 through 65-35
Bowser: 65-35
Toon Link: 65-35
King DeDeDe: 61-39
Sonic: 60-40 to 65-35
Lucas: 60-40
Lucario: 60-40
Mario: 60-40
Pokemon Trainer: 60-40
-Charizard: 60-40
-Ivysaur: 60-40
-Squirtle: 40-60
Pit: 60-40
Snake: 60-40
Fox: 60-40
Donkey Kong: 60-40
Kirby: 60-40

Neutrals 50, +5/-5
Zero Suit Samus: 55-45
Diddy Kong: 50-50
Ice Climbers: 55-45
Pikachu: 55-45
Falco: 50-50
Mr. Game and Watch: 45-55 to 55-45
Wario: 50-50
Wolf: 45-55
Yoshi: 45-55
Sheik: 45-55 to 40-60

Disadvantages 40-60 through 35-65
Ness: 40-60
R.O.B.: 40-60
Peach: 40-60 to 35-65
Meta Knight: 40-60 to 35-65
Marth: 40-60 to 35-65
Luigi: 35-65

Big Disadvantages 30-70 through 10-90
none

Discuss!

DanGR · Jul 26, 2008

Recent changes
Beginning with the most recent change.

Character

---------------------

From

---------------

To
Kirby

---------------------------

55-45

--------------

60-40
Marth

--------------------------

40-60

--------------

40-60 to 35-65
Mr. Game and Watch

--------

45-55

--------------

45-55 to 55-45
Peach

--------------------------

35-65

--------------

40-60 to 35-65
Sheik

---------------------------

40-60

--------------

45-55 to 40-60

Questions or comments? Just ask.

Rocann · Jul 26, 2008

thoughts disagreeing with the above to get the ball rolling: Peach needs to be disadvantage definitely, luigi is neutral at BEST and ZSS could be disadvantage.

DanGR · Jul 26, 2008

I agree about peach, but I think we should get into the habit of explaining ourselves. >_> I don't agree with luigi being neutral or being disadvantaged against ZSS.

Rocann · Jul 26, 2008

yeah that's why I said ZSS couuuld be disadvantage. I've played one toplevel ZSS and I'm undecided. luigi on the other hand is definitely neutral. he doesn't have great range but many of the things that make peach a disadvantage can be applied to luigi as well. huge priority, floaty aerials to stay out of punishing range, amazing recovery, quick quick quick jabs (and everything quick for luigi), extremely powerful smashes can get olimar to gimp distance at low%, aerial kill moves, not to mention the tornado.

asob4 · Jul 26, 2008

at least the one discussed on AiB is A LOT more accurate than this >_>

anyway
peach is major disadvantage. you know why, edrees explained everything

luigi is neutral imo
he has little range and olimar is a small target
d tilt stops the tornado btw.
it is difficult to get olimar off the stage due to size and WAC. luigi can be *somewhat* combo'd for some good damage. pikmin stop his projectile andd he doesn't have that great of an approach outside of tornado.
oh and luigi's only aerial kill move is his nair. all others have too little knockback to kill. only a fresh bair may kill at HIGH %'s

btw the luigi i play is ROFL
hope you know who that is.

ZSS is a neutral match up as they have about equal range but olimar has an easier time killing than she does. 55-45
discussed with fadedimage, the best ZSS player i know

EDIT: here's the one from AiB
i must be honest though, some of the even match ups are unknown, but still fairly accurate
Advantages
Bowser: 65-35
Captain Falcon: 70-30
Ganon: 70-30
Ike: 65-35
King DeDeDe: 65-35
Link: 70-30
Lucario: 60-40
Lucas: 65-35
Mario: 60-40
Pokemon Trainer: 60-40
-Charizard: 60-40
-Ivysaur: 60-40
-Squirtle: 40-60
Samus: 63-35
Snake: 60-40
Sheik: 60-40
Toon Link: 65-35
Wolf: 60-40
Zelda: 60-40

Neutrals
Diddy Kong: 55-45
Falco: 50-50
Fox: 55-45
Ice Climbers: 55-45
Jigglypuff: 55-45
Luigi: 55-45
Mr. Game and Watch: 55-45
Pikachu: 55-45
Pit: 50-50
Sonic: 50-50
Wario: 50-50
Zamus: 55-45

Disadvantages
Donkey Kong: 60-40
Kirby: 40-60
Marth: 40-60
Meta Knight: 35-65
Ness: 40-60
Peach: 35-65
ROB: 40-60
Yoshi: 40-60

DanGR · Jul 26, 2008

I guess I'll copy and paste it into the OP. If they're any disagreement, we can discuss it from there.

asob4 · Jul 26, 2008

okie dokie

i've talked to bigfoot about that **** DK disadvantage but he doesn't budge >_> and mr. x agrees with him

Neb · Jul 26, 2008

G&W is a disadvantage, and I'm not just saying that because I main him. If the Game and Watch player knows what hes doing, it becomes very difficult for Olimar to pick-up damage, etc. In this match-up, Olly's campy game proves useless and his offensive game not too far behind. The only real advantage here, is Caps grab combo's, and some other attacks. Everything else is punished in one way or another, especially his recovery.

If you don't agree, feel free to prove me wrong.
60/40, in G&W's favor.

asob4 · Jul 26, 2008

Neb said:
G&W is a disadvantage, and I'm not just saying that because I main him. If the Game and Watch player knows what hes doing, it becomes very difficult for Olimar to pick-up damage, etc. In this match-up, Olly's campy game proves useless and his offensive game not too far behind. The only real advantage here, is Caps grab combo's, and some other attacks. Everything else is punished in one way or another, especially his recovery.

If you don't agree, feel free to prove me wrong.
6/4, in G&W's favor.

hmmm well the thing is range
all of olimar's ground moves out range gnw in every possible way.
the key is punishable, as is the turtle if you know how to shield it properly.
they both kill early but olimar will get it before because of gnw's weight
pikmin latch on the legs can't be taken off by the turtle pretty sure.

olimar takes the ground while gnw takes the air. the air is more punishable than the ground though since all of oli's moves have VERY little cool down

Olimarman · Jul 26, 2008

Olimar has a slight disadvantage with ZSS. Olimar's range is great but ZSS has a slight larger range with her whip. It makes approaching a lot harder. 40/60. Luigi also has a slight advantage on Olimar because of his amazing priority on his tornado and aerials. 45/55.

asob4 · Jul 26, 2008

55-45 either way is even match up

i've discussed ZSS with a good ZSS main and we have come to the agreement that ZSS vs Oli is 55-45 either way.

the man in green is already set to 55-45

cutter · Jul 26, 2008

asob4 said:
hmmm well the thing is range
all of olimar's ground moves out range gnw in every possible way.
the key is punishable, as is the turtle if you know how to shield it properly.
they both kill early but olimar will get it before because of gnw's weight
pikmin latch on the legs can't be taken off by the turtle pretty sure.

olimar takes the ground while gnw takes the air. the air is more punishable than the ground though since all of oli's moves have VERY little cool down

G&W's Dtilt blocks pikmin and literally catapults them away. The only move that G&W should be worrying about on the ground is Olimar's grab. G&W's Nair very quickly gets all pikmin off him if they manage to latch on. Why would G&W use Bair to get pikmin off him?

The key is very hard to punish. The move has a landing hitbox and the lag is very little. This is not Toon Link's Dair, which has very punishable lag. A lot of G&W's moves autocancel or have IASA frames.

G&W sends Olimar to his grave at ~75% with any of his smashes which is earlier than when Olimar kills G&W.

Neb · Jul 26, 2008

asob4 said:
hmmm well the thing is range
all of olimar's ground moves out range gnw in every possible way.
the key is punishable, as is the turtle if you know how to shield it properly.
they both kill early but olimar will get it before because of gnw's weight
pikmin latch on the legs can't be taken off by the turtle pretty sure.

olimar takes the ground while gnw takes the air. the air is more punishable than the ground though since all of oli's moves have VERY little cool down

+Ground Moves- G&W's dtilt catapults any detached pikmin that come in contact with its hitbox. A fully charged fsmash and dsmash from Olimar, can be stopped with not only dtilt, but a single jab. So it doesn't really matter that Olimar can out range G&W.

+Key and Turtle Punishable- There are are plenty of follow-ups out of key that can patch those problems up, plus it has quick cool down. DI'ng correctly with bair prevents punishment.

+Olimar KO's G&W earlier- Actually, G&W will KO Olimar faster since he can't escape Watch's solid grab-game, even when tech'd (To slow of a roll, so its telegraphed). Plus GaW's smashes are actually stronger than Olimar's, and there's always the punishable recovery.

+Leg Latch- Pikmin latch on legs can be removed with- Jab, Up-b, dtilt, nair, dair, and uair, which blows pikmin vertically as if shot out of a cannon, and those not affected are hit with its huge hitbox.

Lastly, G&W can take the ground and air. SH dairs crush Olimar, and so do Nairs and Bairs. The majority of Game & Watches moves have amazing IASA frames and his aerials autocancel. Similar to how Olimar can cycle through smashes, G&W can cycle through aerials and smashes too. Aerials from Olimar are out prioritized, and so are his ground moves.

asob4 · Jul 26, 2008

for most people they can't punish the key, olimar can due to his long range

GnW will have a hard time killing because he'll never get close to olimar

oli can simply not get grabbed, it's not hard as oli.

priority doens't matter as much as he can shoot out 2-3 from a far distance and GnW will never be able to touch him

nothing from GnW will outrange oli's ground game. plain and simple. while you're dtilting away the pikmin, i'll easily run in with a grab and get you to 50+% and then kill you early.

it's hard to DI away from oli's massive grab range, and key is very punishable. i've played good GnW's and have won. i 3 stocked a good GnW. albeit it was on weegee's mansion

no smart person would be under the key as it comes down. roll away then grab/fsmash

i've discussed this with so many people it's not even funny
oli and GnW is 55-45 either way

Neb · Jul 26, 2008

asob4 said:
for most people they can't punish the key, olimar can due to his long range

GnW will have a hard time killing because he'll never get close to olimar

oli can simply not get grabbed, it's not hard as oli.

priority doens't matter as much as he can shoot out 2-3 from a far distance and GnW will never be able to touch him

nothing from GnW will outrange oli's ground game. plain and simple. while you're dtilting away the pikmin, i'll easily run in with a grab and get you to 50+% and then kill you early.

it's hard to DI away from oli's massive grab range, and key is very punishable. i've played good GnW's and have won. i 3 stocked a good GnW. albeit it was on weegee's mansion

no smart person would be under the key as it comes down. roll away then grab/fsmash

i've discussed this with so many people it's not even funny
oli and GnW is 55-45 either way

That's why G&W would key at close distances, he wouldn't spam it, But if the situation calls, he can escape a grab with an up-b and come back with another dair while Olimar is in grab animation.

Its really not that hard to get through Olimar, between spot and air dodging. And plus, G&W wouldn't be playing aggressively in this match-up, which forces Olimar to give-up camping and approach, then he'd get punished. GaW can seriously ignore pikmin latch because all of his moves take care of them.

Dtilt has no cool down, by the time you run in for a grab, G&W could punish with a SH dair, or spot dodge into fsmash or dsmash, which sets Olimar up for edge-guard or a Star KO.

And again, Key wouldn't be used from a telegraphed height if it was a smart G&W. It'd be used out of chains. Its seriously not even, s'not like Olimar will be on the ground the whole match. Once he's in the air, he's juggled.

asob4 · Jul 26, 2008

do you honestly think the only thing olimar can do is camp??

Neb · Jul 26, 2008

lol, I didn't say that. You gave me your solutions, and I countered them back. G&W is forced to camp in this match-up, and Olimar is forced to not. Oli isn't as adaptable as G&W, thats the biggest problem.

asob4 said:
priority doens't matter as much as he can shoot out 2-3 from a far distance and GnW will never be able to touch him

Plus you said that. What do you want me to think?

Sprinkle · Jul 26, 2008

I would hardly say that Donkey Kong has an advantage over Olimar. If anything I think Olimar has an advantage over DK, from my experiences at least. You can space yourself out of basically all of his attacks and still have your fsmash and throws work (as long as it isn't a purple pikmin obviously). Because of his size most of your latches will work, and he can be combod easily.

All you really need to do against DK is space, grab, and throw pikmin.

DanGR · Jul 26, 2008

I was under the impression that Olimar is neutral with DK as well.

Fsmashes ruin ness' approach game. I don't have any trouble with ness. >_>

I don't think Fox v Olimar is neutral. He doesn't have any approaches that are safe, though he's lightning quick.

Excellence · Jul 26, 2008

Donkey Kong vs Olimar, in my opinion is an advantage in Olimar's favor. Something of a 60/40 in my opinion. If spaced correctly, as stated above, you can beat out Donkey Kong. I don't see any safe way for him to get near you and there's always the opinion of tossing Pikmin at him to force him into range. Though it's a bit primative, it seems to work wonders for me. The only thing I'd be afraid of from is his Down Smash, because of it's range and slightly increased speed. He seems to me a big target, especially if you can get under him.

I used to have a lot of trouble against Mr. Game & Watch, but now he isn't that hard. You said that Olimar's camp game can't really do anything, but I disagree. If you spam Mr. Game & Watch he's got to remove the Pikmin at some time or take the damage. I don't know of anyone who'd be willing to take tons of damage. In my experiences, people get them off with the A move or an Aerial. After Game & Watch finishes his attack, there's usually lag enough for me to get in and do what needs to be done.

Fox is pretty easy to me, I manage to eat them alive, but I'm not sure about everyone else. I think they usually go for the same approachs: Down Air and Dash Atk into Up Tilt combos, I think the occasional short hop Shine into Neutral Air, but that just may be the Fox I play. Fox falls pretty quickly so Olimar can grab combo him. His recover is pretty manageable if you can time it correctly, and Pikmin slows his Up B giving you time to ledge guard. Side B can be stopped by danging Olimar on the Pikmin rope.

It's not Ness I have trouble with, but Lucas. He's (I think) he's the first good Ness/Lucas player that I've faced. He's using PK Cannon and preventing me from hitting him, while he zips from one end of the screen to the other. I could get a chance to hit him, and didn't want to risk getting too close because of the chance I might get hit. He was using it from the air, so by the time I jumped he was launching. Can you shield grab that? I'm not sure, because it looks like the lightning has a trail.

Neb · Jul 26, 2008

Excellence said:
I used to have a lot of trouble against Mr. Game & Watch, but now he isn't that hard. You said that Olimar's camp game can't really do anything, but I disagree. If you spam Mr. Game & Watch he's got to remove the Pikmin at some time or take the damage. I don't know of anyone who'd be willing to take tons of damage. In my experiences, people get them off with the A move or an Aerial. After Game & Watch finishes his attack, there's usually lag enough for me to get in and do what needs to be done.

You must've not been fighting a good G&W. Just to show how easy it is; Olimar can latch all six pikmin onto Game and Watch, and all he has to do is perform nair, uair, or up-b once, and they're all off. Not to mention nair auto-cancels, which leaves a needle eye of room to punish. Watch can do a nair=>dair in one short hop, thats how quick its cool-down is!

Which means he can ignore pikmin latch.

Puddin · Jul 26, 2008

Uhm pardon the noobness but I never really understood what the numbers stood for

so could someone explain them to me? Perhaps so I could start using them to make myself seem smarter XD

DanGR · Jul 26, 2008

They're just odds. It's how big an advantage one character has over another. 50/50 means it's an even matchup and 60/40 means it's a slight advantage. 40/60 means disadvantage. 55/45 either way is too slight an advantage to call it that.

Sprinkle · Jul 27, 2008

I've only played one Game and Watch a long time ago, so I don't know how well I can say Olimar does against him. But I just kept my spacing, grabbed, and pikmin tossed, not horribly difficult. When you're playing GaW (really most characters) you don't want to roll because his attacks last so long and have crazy hitboxes on both sides. Olimar is so tiny that his roll doesn't really go anywhere. Dashing away works much better in a lot of instances. But Game and Watch can gimp Olimar pretty easily, so I'll call it a neutral match.

PrinceACE · Jul 27, 2008

How is Wolf at advantage??? I have played few wolfs but the one I played all the do is spam lazer, side smash and down smash. I mean you may be able to beat wolfs but if that wolf wants to really win all he has to do is spam and we don't stand a chance. I mean how in the hell are we suppose to beat him?

Wolf would be 60/40 disadvantage.

My secondary is DK and I have only played some olimar's with him but I would say it would be neutral. Olimar can constantly keep far distance by pikmin toss and side smash. The only way I see this being a disadvantage is because DK would cargo fall d own toss far so he can gimp. (Not stage spike but just throwing him out far.

55/45 advantage slightly Olimar, pretty neutral

Neb · Jul 27, 2008

If Wolf is a disadvantage, you best believe G&W is too.

PrinceACE · Jul 27, 2008

Okay you seem like a uber GaW fanboy. Listen GaW is great and all but I don't really struggle with them like wolfs, metaknight, and ROBs. If its a good GaW then it gots to be 55/45 GaW. But it is certainly not a big disadvantage. Also I chase Robs off the screen sometimes because their up b helps me recover :D

Neb · Jul 27, 2008

*cough*
Alright, whatever. S'not like it matters if you guys believe me or not, G&W still ***** Olimar.
Though, I don't have anything against Oli, just stating my opinion.

But anyway, on another note. Why is Yoshi a disadvantage to Pikmin and Cap?

PrinceACE · Jul 27, 2008

I don't know. I have faced some awful yoshi's but i still stuggle against them. I guess Olimar is scared of dinosaurs

Rocann · Jul 27, 2008

^^^ basically people olimar has trouble with are the ones that are always on approach, come in from the air with good priority and strength moves and are immediately back up in the air again after they strike. yoshi is one of those characters, with his bair being ridiculously good and chaining with dragonic reverse into 18,000 other things. I've never played a toplevel GnW so I can't judge that.

Onxy · Jul 27, 2008

There isn't too much of a difference in shielding his smashes when he is at a distance, or jabbing it. Except jabbing leaves you open.

shanus · Jul 27, 2008

I've played some very good Gaw's, (OBM as one of them), and I can say I don't find the matchup to be that ridiculous at all as some people say. I feel its pretty even once people learn that the key can be easily abused by pivot grabs and stop spamming upsmash or utilt. His bair is annoying, but can be punished if it isn't sweetspotted which happens surprisingly frequently. Oh, and whistle armoring a lot really helps in not getting absolutely rocked by his kill moves.

DanGR · Jul 27, 2008

thanks for visiting. we do appreciate it.

Neb said:
*cough*
Alright, whatever. S'not like it matters if you guys believe me or not, G&W still ***** Olimar.
Though, I don't have anything against Oli, just stating my opinion.

But anyway, on another note. Why is Yoshi a disadvantage to Pikmin and Cap?

Yoshi is a vegetarian. He eats pikmin for breakfast, lunch, AND dinner.

Edit: I put 30-70 Rob in the matchup guide thread. Which is it? 40-60 or 30-70?

Plus, I still disagree with Ness>Olimar

PrinceACE · Jul 27, 2008

Wow Ness has a very BIG disadvantage against Olimar IMO. First off you out range him by a ton you can camp him. Also if he gets off the stage far enough to use his Up B well then pikmin throw and BLAMO KO.

Olimarman · Jul 27, 2008

Rob is definately 30-70, he just wrecks the life out of Olimar. His range on some of his attacks is just about the range of Olimar's grabs, and even being a tiny bit shorter doesn't make a difference with the way Rob's set up their attacks. His laser eats through your pikmin, almost all of his moves out prioritize almost all of your moves and hes fairly heavy. Imo, Robs love this matchup a lot.

I think Olimar has a slight edge on Ness but its close. 55/45 Olimar.

asob4 · Jul 28, 2008

i have no experience with a good ness so i have no say on that

listen to shanus, he plays against OBM.

yoshi is just a ***** >_>

DanGR · Jul 28, 2008

I've played against a good ness and basically all I had to do was

-throw pikmin to get him to approach
-fsmash wall his approaches
-if he full jumped, I could wait for him to land and fsmash his landing

His SH doesn't go over fsmashes. His aerial fall and rise speed are slow enough to run underneath him. It's that simple. He's small and easy to kill. Edgeguarding is as simple as tossing a buncha pikmin on him.

I agree with Shanus on GaW. I'll keep it at even.

geekd · Jul 28, 2008

Yoshi is difficult, but I think Mario is worse. He can easily approach me with his nair and then jab combo me outa my shield. Then the comboing onslaught begins. He also ***** olimar hardcore with his edgegames. I destroy my roomates G&W and MK, but his mario always seems to take me. (55-45 mario imo)

asob4 · Jul 28, 2008

i need to play vicegrip because he went all detailed as to why ness is a counter, but it needs to be played out to be sure.

mario is 60-40 olimar, monk said so.

try up tilting or nairing his nair

Olimar's Matchups (The numbers)

BRoomer

BRoomer

Smash Lord

BRoomer

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

BRoomer

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Rookie

BRoomer

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

BRoomer

Smash Rookie

Smash Rookie

Smash Lord

Smash Rookie

Smash Lord

Smash Rookie

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

BRoomer

Smash Rookie

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

BRoomer

Smash Apprentice

Smash Champion

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