General Tier Disccussion

The Real Inferno · Aug 3, 2008

This topic may look familiar, but has been approved to be posted once more. Huzzah. At any rate, here's your copy-pastad refresher course on Melee Tiers and this topic in general.

This topic came about as per suggestion of Scar in another topic. The purpose is to spark some discussion about Melee that doesn't involve arguing about comparing it to a certain other game.I do hope we don't need to have a topic this simple locked. It is in no way official or anything. It is for the discussion of characters as they function in the current Melee Metagame and if this should affect their placement in the traditional tiers that are currently used for Melee.

Melee already has a tier list. The great thing about already having one to go off of is it becomes much easier to discuss it from there. We have a working basis. In case anyone is unfamiliar with the full list outside of the top few, here it is. This list came out back in 2006 and has been the generally accepted standard up through today.

Top/God
Fox
Falco

High
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Middle
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Dr Mario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganondorf

Low
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu

Bottom
Yoshi
Zelda
Game & Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

Seeing as how the list is two years old, some people believe it may be time to re-review the meta. It certainly hasn't remained stagnant for two years one would hope. Now, if you've seen the Brawl Tier Discussion topic....then you know exactly how NOT to do this. Intelligent discussion of character matchups is encouraged, full tier lists with absolutely no basis is highly discouraged. Characters of keen interest right now include: Marth, Falco, Fox, Shiek, Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Samus, Jigglypuff (these few in particular have been discussed before as needing to be in different spots due to particular attributes of each).

Vyse · Aug 3, 2008

*1st Post*

But after 6-7 years of metagame development, it's soooo hard to find fault if you're objective and unbiased [/whine]

Kirby below Bowser?

We all know Jiggly needs special attention. Maybe one spot higher? Tournament results would favour the puffball thanks to Mango.

PeeP · Aug 3, 2008

Yay second post!

MArth higher, above falco. M2K is too good.

Falco lower. Recovery sucks, too easily killed.

Maybe?
Top Tier:
Fox
Marth

High Tier:
Shiek
Falco
Peach

Pichu below mewtwo.

I agree with vyse on puff and kirby/bowser.

fps · Aug 3, 2008

Top/God
Fox
Falco

High
Sheik
Marth
Ness

Middle
Young Link (Down-A combo in the air <3)
Captain Falcon
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Samus
Dr Mario
Peach
Mario
Ganondorf

Low
Jigglypuff
Link
Donkey Kong
Roy

Bottom
Luigi
Yoshi
Zelda
Game & Watch
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

This isn't the "official-everyone-approves"-list, thou' it's written from my point of view. Ness is underated in Melee, especially 2vs2, the fact that he got even better (the rest of the chars got slower) in Brawl will make him even more noticable in Melee. Luigi? I can't really see why he wouldn't be in the bottom-rated list.
Young Link got a nice range and can choose the outcome from 2 vs 1, he got a pretty good smash attack that's pretty hard to avoid (unless you're playing Brawl, might be why they nerfed him).

Hmm, now I'm reflecting my choice, I think I'm pretty happy about the list, Ness is nice in 2 vs 2-mode and he got some mad combos. Made some few changes, anywho this is my list for now.

Justerbuster07 · Aug 3, 2008

I think Marth needs to be moved up a tier.

Mic_128 · Aug 3, 2008

Because....?

The Fail Tracer · Aug 3, 2008

Yes, Marth definitely needs to be moved up. Foxy may be really good too, but Marth usually ***** him.

Pyrostormer · Aug 3, 2008

Sly Fox said:
Yes, Marth definitely needs to be moved up. Foxy may be really good too, but Marth usually ***** him.

Nice logic there!

MikeHaggarTHAKJB · Aug 3, 2008

The PAL tier list should be included here. Here's the link to it: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=97627 It's pretty much the same but should still be there I think

The tier list is pretty much correct imo, jiggly should move up a bit though, above ic's and maybe even falcon... And Luigi should definetly move up, imo he's better then the marios. Even if he isnt he sure as hell isnt low tier.
And Mario should be above dr Mario. Why? Because he's a mother****in italian plumber with a red hat. What is Doctor Mario? A regular, boring ****ing neighbourhood doctor. pfft.
And I never understood why YLink is lower on the tier list then link, looking at the stats of them YL just seems better, but I'm probably wrong here though since I have little to no experience with them.
And Zelda should move down. She sucks. Below Bowser.

fps · Aug 3, 2008

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Well, Link got more range with his spinattacks/smash-attacks than Y-link, so he's a littlebit better, thou' I like Y.Link more, so I can agree to move Y.Link higher up.

Pyrostormer:
Marth got a nice counterattack, and a better range, range isn't everything, but you want to stay outside Fox's chain-grapping-reflect-combo, that's why marth got a upper hand with his range, plus, Marth's airattack's are pure madness, they're fast, they're easy to use and not so predictable as Fox's.

Roman. · Aug 3, 2008

Jiggly puff definitely needs to be higher considering recent tournaments and she's just much better than that... marth should be higher than falco for sure and link should be mid tier (luigi should be mid tier as well).

IMO captain falcon should be above peach but it's close... and then maybe followed by jigs.

I.B · Aug 3, 2008

fps said:
thou' I like Y.Link more, so I can agree to move Y.Link higher up.

This isn't a popularity tier list.

DTKPch · Aug 3, 2008

NessHighTierWTF?

Anyways, Puff should be moved up, especially after Mango's big win. I feel Marth and Sheik should switch places.

... MEWTWO FOR TOP TIER!!!!

SpaceFalcon · Aug 3, 2008

Fox
Falco
Marth
Shiek
Peach
Falcon

Maybe even Falcon above Peach at this point in the smash series.

slartibartfast42 · Aug 3, 2008

fps said:
This isn't the "official-everyone-approves"-list, thou' it's written from my point of view. Ness is underated in Melee, especially 2vs2, the fact that he got even better (the rest of the chars got slower) in Brawl will make him even more noticable in Melee. Luigi? I can't really see why he wouldn't be in the bottom-rated list.
Young Link got a nice range and can choose the outcome from 2 vs 1, he got a pretty good smash attack that's pretty hard to avoid (unless you're playing Brawl, might be why they nerfed him).

Hmm, now I'm reflecting my choice, I think I'm pretty happy about the list, Ness is nice in 2 vs 2-mode and he got some mad combos. Made some few changes, anywho this is my list for now.

This isn't "make a tier list based on which characters you like/are good with". Try to base it off observations from top players. You may be able to pull off a few combos with ness, but putting him above captain falcon for "mad combos" when captain falcon can do combos like this? Then you go and bash Luigi, when his wavedash to downsmash is better than anything ness has on the ground, and his aerials are faster, more ranged, and have more priority than ness's, along with better recovery (much better horizontally, vertically is about the same, maybe a tad bit farther for ness, but ness's recovery is REALLY EASY to gimp.)

Young link's smash attack isn't anything special, and... Wait a minute, did you just say he could combo with his dair? >.<

and WHY DID YOU MOVE JIGGLYPUFF DOWN? <insert mango here>

Anyway, I generally agree with what people have been saying in this topic, so, does a list looking like this look good to everyone?

(anyone posting a list, please post it like this, not with a new line for every character because that's way to big...)

top: Fox, Marth, Sheik (Mew2king has brought marth up a lot. Why shouldn't he be higher when the best player mains him? Of course this moves his counter up)
High: Falco, Peach, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff (Jigglypuff has seen a lot of action recently, falco is debateable, maybe he put him at the end of top tier?)
Mid: Ice Climbers, Samus, Doc, Mario, Ganondorf (order in this tier didn't change, just took out jiggs/falcon)
Low: Luigi, DK, Link, Roy, Young Link, Pikachu (I've seen good stuff from Luigi and DK recently, and Link... Well, Aniki doesn't main him anymore XD)
Bottom: Yoshi, Zelda, G&W, Ness, Bowser, Kirby, Pichu, Mewtwo (hmmm, this looks familiar...)

Notice how the way I moved things around has absolutely no impact on which characters can be used in low tier tournaments XD. Yes, this may be a bit biased as I moved 2 of my mains up, but I really think they deserve it, from what I've seen.

MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:
And Zelda should move down. She sucks. Below Bowser.

Zelda's Fair and Bair beat bowser's aerials any day. She's generally faster, has more KO potential, etc. How is bowser better than her? Also, zelda has a better grab (iirc), along with a much better recovery. Zelda is also harder to combo compared to bowser, who (in my opinoin) is the easiest character to combo in the game, being so big.

Pink Reaper · Aug 3, 2008

I hate to just do a Ctrl+c/Ctrl+v but I have to go to work, so here's the tier list I was thinking about in the other thread:

Pink Reaper said:
Lets do this rationally shall we?
Top Tier:
Marth
Fox
Sheik
Falco
Peach

Upper Tier:
Falcon
Jiggs
IC's
Samus

Middle Tier:
Luigi
Gannon
DK
Link
Doc

Lower Tier:
Mario
Pikachu
Y.Link
G&W
Yoshi
Ness

Bottom Tier:
Roy
Zelda
Mewtwo
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu

Realistically I think this is somewhere around what the tier list should look like.

Explanations later.

Grunt · Aug 3, 2008

slartibartfast42 said:
Top: Fox, Marth, Sheik
High: Falco, Peach, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff
Mid: Ice Climbers, Samus, Doc, Mario, Ganondorf
Low: Luigi, DK, Link, Roy, Young Link, Pikachu
Bottom: Yoshi, Zelda, G&W, Ness, Bowser, Kirby, Pichu, Mewtwo

I kinda like this one, but I haven't really heard much going on with the Marios, and why their spots are still justifiable.

slartibartfast42 · Aug 3, 2008

I would laugh so hard if my list became official. But I seriously doubt that, as I really have no clue what I'm talking about (BS ftw). Umm, the marios are good, you usually don't see any feature that is particularly outstanding with them, but they outspeed G-dorf, and they are pretty much like luigi except less floaty, and with awesome cape/fair spike edgeguarding options...

otg · Aug 3, 2008

Yeah, I approve of slartibartfast42's tier list. F/M/S are definitely top 3, and Falcon and Jiggz needed to be moved into high tier due to the fantastic Falcon players placing well at tournies (Silent Spectre, Isai, Scar, Azen) and of course Mango . Other than that everything seems right except maybe moving DK or Luigi into midtier, I mean Luigi isn't typically allowed in Low Tiers tournies!

Ja · Aug 3, 2008

I want to make this clear, SMASH HAS NO GOD TIER. God tier is when you MUST be that character to win. Fox is beatable by lower tiers even if it's a difficult matchup. God tier would be something like Giga Bowser, Fox on Hyrule Temple, or Akuma in ST.

Proverbs · Aug 3, 2008

^Thank you.

Vro · Aug 3, 2008

2008 johns...

Top Tier
Fox
Marth
Falco

High Tier
Sheik
Falcon
Peach

Middle Tier
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers
Samus
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Mario

Low Tier
Link
Luigi
DK
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu

Bottom Tier
Yoshi
Zelda
Game & Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

L__ · Aug 3, 2008

Ryzol said:
I want to make this clear, SMASH HAS NO GOD TIER. God tier is when you MUST be that character to win. Fox is beatable by lower tiers even if it's a difficult matchup. God tier would be something like Giga Bowser, Fox on Hyrule Temple, or Akuma in ST.

...Although there are so many clear cut advantages Fox has over the lower tiers, all it really depends on is skill level.

"Fox on Hyrule Temple"

I beg to differ. I would say Peach on Yoshi's 64 should be renamed "Peach's Playground"

Don't get so worked up, it bugs people.

Vro · Aug 3, 2008

I would imagine Fox would do better on Yoshi's 64. I'm not disregarding Peach's innate strength on it, but Fox would still be a champ there.

MikeHaggarTHAKJB · Aug 3, 2008

slartibartfast42 said:
Zelda's Fair and Bair beat bowser's aerials any day. She's generally faster, has more KO potential, etc. How is bowser better than her? Also, zelda has a better grab (iirc), along with a much better recovery. Zelda is also harder to combo compared to bowser, who (in my opinoin) is the easiest character to combo in the game, being so big.

Actually her movement is slower (running speed). Also Bowser has way better edgeguarding.

The Real Inferno · Aug 4, 2008

I feel Falco isn't any worse in the current meta, but rather has experienced a severe lack of popularity as of late. That being said, it's my opinion, Marth is actually better than him, but Falco is still top tier. I would keep Fox where he is and place Marth between the two space animals. MArth has the tournament results to back up such a switch at this time, and has shown to be just as hard to deal with in high level play as the other two top tiers.

Problem2 · Aug 4, 2008

Top
Marth (up)
Fox
Falco

High
Sheik
Falcon (up)
Peach

Middle
Jigglypuff (up)
Ice Climbers
Samus
Dr Mario
Mario
Ganondorf

Low
Donkey Kong (up)
Link
Luigi
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu

Bottom
Yoshi
Zelda
Game & Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

I didn't make a lot of changes because I believe that the tier list is really accurate at this point in time. I also didn't meddle with the bottom tier because I know next to nothing about those characters.

Marth - Let's face it. Ken has been creaming our faces since the near beginning of Smash. Marth players have won countless tournaments which has always bugged me why people continued to rate Fox and/or Sheik above Marth. M2k seals the deal with his beastly Marth combos and chain grabs. If you look at the vids just before Brawl, it's practically all just Marth and Fox.

Falcon - Falcon's recovery is the main thing that has glaringly shied away Falcon from the upper tiers. However, Falcon has a very very aggressive offense and can combo the crap out of other players. Just check out this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNncLAjGXxs

Jigglypuff - Jigglypuff may be quite simple in playstyle, but Mango has proved jiggs to be very efficient at it.

Donkey Kong - DK's grabwalk -> up-throw -> u-air etc. -> Giant punch combo is a great combo, and what makes it even greater is that you can initiate it out of a grab. DK's Up-B can also be used similar to Link's Sword Spin as a KO move on the ground. (I credit Bum for this addition to DK's playstyle)

DTKPch · Aug 4, 2008

MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:
Actually her movement is slower (running speed). Also Bowser has way better edgeguarding.

Oh, right, because running speed matters that much...
That's why Ganondorf should be TrashBottomDisgustingSuck Tier, and why Captain Falcon is the best in the game, right?
If someone says speed in the context of a tier discussion, it will almost always mean total speed, taking attacks, falling speed, and such into consideration.

And it hardly matters if Bowser has the advantage over Zelda in one area. Zelda has better aerials and ground game, plus a better recovery by far.

illboyzeus · Aug 4, 2008

Luigi should be middle at the least. He has good matchups against falcon/fox/falcon, and his game has evolved a lot over time.

Grunt · Aug 4, 2008

illboyzeus said:
Luigi should be middle at the least. He has good matchups against falcon/fox/falcon, and his game has evolved a lot over time.

I didn't know he had good matchups with Falcon, and Falcon!

Pink Reaper · Aug 4, 2008

Dude, Luigi has mastered teh Falcon.

But seriously, Luigi has more even match ups with the majority of the cast than say Doctor Mario or Mario.

Speaking of moving up, Mewtwo really does need to move up. He's far from a good character, but he's no where near as bad as "Worst in the Game" and should be above the real bottom three(Bowser, Kirby and Pichu in that order)

Also, I still think we need in depth analysis of every character from some of the more knowledgeable players stating pros, cons, strengths and weaknesses of every character before we start trying to remake the tier list.

MikeHaggarTHAKJB · Aug 4, 2008

DTKPch said:
Oh, right, because running speed matters that much...
That's why Ganondorf should be TrashBottomDisgustingSuck Tier, and why Captain Falcon is the best in the game, right?
If someone says speed in the context of a tier discussion, it will almost always mean total speed, taking attacks, falling speed, and such into consideration.

And it hardly matters if Bowser has the advantage over Zelda in one area. Zelda has better aerials and ground game, plus a better recovery by far.

All I said was that his movement speed is faster... which it is.

BTW, is it just me or has fox usage been decreasing lately? (not saying that he should be moved down on the tier list). I can't think of any major pro that mains him right now (altho loads of them have him as a secondary)

Pink Reaper · Aug 4, 2008

Mike your still of the entirely wrong mindset that Pro's "Main" one character. The fact that a Pro started with one character means nothing. M2K does not "Main" Marth, he plays Marth, Fox, Captain Falcon and Sheik occasionally(and Jigglypuff randomly at Pound 3 >_>) Cort plays Peach and Fox, Chu plays(played? Does he still Melee?) IC's, Pikachu, Y.Link, G&W among others. Even Shiz plays Falco AND Fox. It's rare for alot of players to only play one character.

slartibartfast42 · Aug 4, 2008

MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:
Also Bowser has way better edgeguarding.

Well, what you should have been saying is that Zelda is amazing and is definitely better than bowser. Bowser having better edgeguarding is seriously up for debate, imo. Zelda has good options. She can jump out farther and still get back, hitting people with her side aerial (sometimes nayru's love) for kills. Downsmash and Nayru's love are good for edgeguarding, they send opponents at a low trajectory and have decent priority(although admittedly don't beat out all the recovery moves, but hey, recovery moves always have amazing priority). What does Bowser have, ftilt/fsmash/bair/fire/downB to hog? That's what I usually see used to edgeguard. Not really too much better if it is better at all. I guess I may be a little biased having some great zeldas in my area, but still....

I would be really happy if someone WHO ACTUALLY MAINED one of these characters would join the discussion....

DTKPch said:
Oh, right, because running speed matters that much...
That's why Ganondorf should be TrashBottomDisgustingSuck Tier, and why Captain Falcon is the best in the game, right?
If someone says speed in the context of a tier discussion, it will almost always mean total speed, taking attacks, falling speed, and such into consideration.

And it hardly matters if Bowser has the advantage over Zelda in one area. Zelda has better aerials and ground game, plus a better recovery by far.

QFT

MikeHaggarTHAKJB · Aug 4, 2008

Its true that Zelda can go farther out then bowser with that absurd up b of hers. But bowser can go far out as well (you can do two fairs off stage and survive without trouble)
A sweetspotted bair sends people as low as nayrus love, at a far higher speed. its a semi spike. And bowser dtilt sends people at really low angles... Not to mention that bair outprioritizes almost anything (like any other of his edgeguarding tools... his ftilt is stronger and has higher priority then zeldas dsmash as an example. goes through most recovery attacks). And priority does matter a lot, because people who arent stupid will try to come back with an attack (if possible for them, off course)
and ive never seen down b used as an edgeguard... or for an attacking people period. lol

Gory snake · Aug 4, 2008

DTKPch said:
Oh, right, because running speed matters that much...
That's why Ganondorf should be TrashBottomDisgustingSuck Tier, and why Captain Falcon is the best in the game, right?
If someone says speed in the context of a tier discussion, it will almost always mean total speed, taking attacks, falling speed, and such into consideration.

And it hardly matters if Bowser has the advantage over Zelda in one area. Zelda has better aerials and ground game, plus a better recovery by far.

A couple of things to note, he never said Bowser was better than Zelda just because he ran faster or that running speed = placement on tier list. By total speed I assume you mean factoring in air speed as well, fair enough Zelda has a quicker air speed but Bowser has a higher falling speed than Zelda, and I have no clue what you mean by how quickly a character "takes attacks." Also although Im defending this guy I agree that Zelda > Bowser, and thats coming from a Bowser player.

Better aerials is a toss up, Zelda's lightning kicks hurt alot, but thats not saying Bowser has a weak aerial game. Bair semi-spikes, making it a very effective edgeguarding tool, Fair is one of Bowsers most useful aerials with decent knockback and very little lag if L-cancelled, Nair has huge priority, it beats out most moves. Uair can kill at very low percents. Dair is probably Bowsers only bad aerial, but its still better than Zelda's Dair. As for the better ground game, Im not too sure. Bowser has Ftilt, Koopa Klaw, Fortress, and his ledge attack, one of few characters in the game with a decent ledge attack. Zelda has quicker more useful smashes and Dsmash beats most of Bowsers moves in terms of speed.

Recovery goes to Zelda, easily.

Scar · Aug 4, 2008

Get Luigi and DK out of low tier please.

Rannskita · Aug 4, 2008

Gory snake said:
and I have no clue what you mean by how quickly a character "takes attacks."

taking into consideration. read it like this and it'll make sense:

taking attacks, falling speed, and such into consideration.

Vro · Aug 4, 2008

Anyone who puts Marth above Fox is severely blind to the metagame.

debaser · Aug 4, 2008

puff needs to go uuuup
as does ganon, luigi and pika
sheik shouldn't be above falco

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