~ Wolf's Match-Up's ~

Metaknight
Rating: 35:65
Discussion (p. 11-12):
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188329&page=11


Snake
Rating: 50:50
Discussion:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193895

A good Snake requires you to play smart and carefully. He has very strong tilts (ftilt deals 21%), dthrow tech chases (his dthrow puts you in an extremely bad position from where he can almost always hit/regrab you), ground control (mines, grenades), mobility (mortar slide) and KO moves (utilt). Despite Snake being pretty much a broken character Wolf has a the tools it takes to defeat Snake. A bad Snake will probably destroy a bad Wolf but on a higher level this match-up becomes more and more even. The most important thing you need to learn - especially in this match-up - is to make full use of your bairs amazing range. There's a huge difference: If you hit Snake from as far away as possbile you're safe, even if you hit his shield. If you hit from too colse he can use ftilt out of his shield, which are 21% (or almost a fifth of your stock). Always keep yourself at that distance - it's not too hard once you get the feeling for it. You may also learn to use your Reflector correctly in this match-up as it becomes very useful. You can counter ftilts and utilts which can safe your life a lot of times. Snake is heavy and has a really good KO move but Wolf is very much the same. Wolf is overall a bit faster and mobile so you better make use of these strengths, since you won't outpower Snake. Both characters are better off staying away from the edge: If you dthrow Snake off the stage you can spike him right afterwards. If Snake dthrows you at the edge it can be a guaranteed KO (you have no options to escape and Snake can easily predict them).
The match-up is even, just focus on Wolfs strenghts (mobility and speed), while not giving Snake the time to make use of his (KO power, damage). It's not easy but Wolf can win this match-up - most Snake's actually dislike it.


King Dedede
Rating: 20:80
Discussion (p. 6-8):
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188329&page=6


Mr. Game And Watch
Rating: 40:60
Discussion:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194582


Falco
Rating: 45:55
Discussion (p. 8-10):
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188329&page=8


R.O.B
Rating: 40:60
Discussion:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5378045#post5378045


Marth
Rating: 50:50
Discussion:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194931

Marth and Wolf have similar strenghts and few exploitable weaknesses in this match-up. Marth weakness is his dead spot below him, when he's in the air. If you can juggle well you can deal some decent damge. Wolfs weakness is the fact that he get's comboed very easily. If you're at 0% Marth can deal some nice damage with fthrow to fthrow to tipper fsmash. Otherwise this match-up is extremely straight-forward but also requires both characters to play very defensive and careful. Marth and Wolf heavily rely on their range, their speed and their ability to deal lots of damage in little time. Both are equally good in range: In the air Marth has Nair and fai in most cases while Wolf has bair and fair. On the Ground Marth has his tilts and the Dancing Blade, while Wolf has the fsmash, ftilt and dsmash. To win this match you have to be patient and try to beat Marth with his own weapons: Try to outrange him and prevent him from hitting back. The best move to do this is obviously your bair (as usual) and since it has basically the same range as Marths aerials you have to very persice. If you don't make full use of your range Marth will beat you. If he doesn't make full use of his range Wolf will beat him. Since they have pretty much the same tools and both can make eually good use of them it's obvious that both characteers have the same chances to win and that it comes down to the player.
Marth is not an easy match-up and no character downright destros him. As a character he's good enough to do well in tournaments with no second characters.
However, there's something you should remember: While Wolf has a hard time against Marth, Marth has just a hard time against Wolf as well.

If the Marth plays overly devensive and uses his fair a lot, you should try to Powershield it. You can punish him with fsmash if you Powershield it (thanks to steel2nd for this info).

Wario
Rating: 45:55
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195143

Wario is an unusual character to fight against. He has great aerial mobility, even better shield pressure, strong KO moves and he himself lives very long. Wario will probably try to come through the air waving back and forth. He will try to bait an attack and punish it accordingly, so don't let him fool you. Just because he comes cose doesn't mean he's gonna attack you. This takes patience to deal with. Wario has good aerials: Combined with his high air speed his dair is a relatively dafe shield poking move, fis fair hass combo potential and his uair can KO opponents pretty well. Staying in your shield is a bad idea as he can either penetrate it with dair or eat through it with his bite. Instead make use of your reflector and counter attack him - Wolf has much more range than Wario on almost all his moves and Wolf actually has similar aerial mobility so try to keep your range by jumping away.
Wario has the advantage in this match-up but not by much. Wolf can be troublesome for Wario, since he's the only character who has similar aerial mobility and completely outranges him. But Wario is heavy, has a very good recovery and better KO moves than Wolf: half-charged farts and a fresh fsmash will KO you before you can KO Wario. His fsmash is pretty much the best in the game.


Lucario
Rating: 50:50
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195331

Lucario has few weaknesses you can exploit and he's overall a very balanced character. Like Wolf his recovery isn't really good but it doesn't matter in this match-up. Lucario is midweight and thus lighter than Wolf but still not easily KOd. This will turn out to be a problem if you don't keep your dsmash fresh. You should KO him as soon as you can: His moves get increased knockback the more % Lucario has. If you wasted your dsmash before Lucario will becoome a real powerhouse who gets additional KO power. Keep your dsmash fresh and you'll have a lot less troubles with him. Lucario is very good in the air and has a charagable projectile with KO potential but he isn't bad on the ground either. He has decent speed and his range is over-average with all his disjointed hitboxes. As you can see, in this match-up Wolf and Lucario have pretty much the same tools so it's pretty much completely based on the players - the characters shouldn't influence the outcome of the battle too much.


Donkey Kong
Rating: 50:50
Discussion (p. 4-6):
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188329&page=4

Donkey Kong is a character of the extremes: His power, weight and range are incredible but his mobility, vertical recovery and speed are sub-par. DK is by no means slow but he's still among the slower characters. He also doesn't havndle projectiles too well: His shield is his only tool and his enourmous size and his lack of mobility don't help much either. You can fight a lot with hit+run tactics since DK can't match Wolfs aerial mobility. Bair is pretty safe unless he Powershields it. Don't overuse it for that reason because a Dsmash out of a Powershield can be pretty devastating. His KO power is very frightening overall but none of his main KO moves comes out faster than 10 frames and his high weight can make it frustrating to KO him. But remember: You might have a hard time against him ... but he has just as hard a time against you. Punish him if he uses a laggy move and fsmash is almost always guaranteed if you Powershield a hit. Keeping your dsmash fresh is a smart idea and you also want to avoid large stages like FD.


Diddy Kong
Rating: 50:50
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195523


Pikachu
Rating: 50:50
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195829

Pikachu's Chaingrab makes this match-up harder than it should actually be. Wolf has a sound range advantage on most of his moves and speedwise Wolf and Pikachu are about the same. Wolf can outcamp Pikachu with Shine, Blaster and his Superior range, so this match-up isn't really bad. The Chaingrab makes things a bit more complicated as it gives Pikachu a guaranteed lead. You can break out of the chaingrab after a few throws though so you won't get ***** like Fox. The problem is that Pikachu's mobility and his decent projectile make the match-up really annoying, if the Pikachu decides to play hit+run. Fight safely to get back your lead - bair is really good of course - and then play more defensive and you can beat him. Just don't throw your nerves away once Pikachu has the lead.


Ice Climbers
Rating: 50:50
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196017


Kirby
Rating: 50:50
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197300

Kirby and Wolf both have quite a lot of things going for them in this match-up making this one rather interesting. Kirby has some good combos at low percent that can deal ~40%+. He is also naturally good at edgeguarding and his overall KO power is really good thanks to his overpowered fsmash. Kirby will probably base a lot of his game around grabs since they lead into combos and edgeguarding attempts, which are his main damage sources. His grab range is really good anyways so be prepared.
Wolf on the other hand completely outranges Kirby and has a slight speed advantage - Kirby isn't really fast. What's more importan though is the fact that Kirby isn't very good at approaching so use your bairs and fairs really defensively and mix them up with your Laser to keep Kirby from getting closer. You have to play really carefully and by patient - if you rush in Kirby will grab you and either deal good damage (most of his throws deal more than 10% even if he doesn't combo) or put you in a gimpable position. Playing smart is basically the key here: If your smart enough you'll outcamp Kirby and win. If the Kirby player is smart enough he'll find or create an opening and probably KO you very fast.

Watch out for his Swallow! Don't try to edgeguard him ... you#ll regret it!


Pit
Rating: 50:50
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197552


Toon Link
Rating: 55:45
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197834

Another very versatile characer. Toon Link will usually play defensively and rely on his projectile arsenal: Arrows, Bombs and the Boomerang are supposed to kepp the opponent away. TLink is very mobile so he can play a mean hit+run game but Wolfs downB makes this a non-issue. If he camps just camp harder and sooner or later he has to approach. This is another thing where Toon Link is quite good at...he can hit shields with his zair from a good distance and follow it up with a bomb. Use your bairs well and you can get rid of this problem in most cases as it usually beats him either rangewise or speedwise. It's a bit tricky to learn but nothing you can't do.

Wolf actually has the advantage but it's minimal indeed. Toon Link can't KO very well and Wolf weight can make this battle frustrating for Toon Link, even though Wolf isn't a really bad match-up for Toon Link.


Olimar
Rating: 60:40
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198003


Fox
Rating: 55:45
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198192

Fox and Wolf don't have many things going against each other. Their projectile/long-ranged games neutralize each other pretty much. Wolf has a small advantage because he just has overall better attributes: more range, better defense (especially his weight), better options to approach and generally safer moves. Sounds like Wolr ***** Fox but that's not the case: Fox has some combos (utilt chains, dair -> jab/grab) and an absurdly overpowered KO move ... his usmash. It's the best usmash in the game and KOs you at ~110% with DI (if it's fresh). So don't be careless, he's no pushover. Just get used to his playstyle and remember that everything Fox do is risky for himself but also a potential threat for you.


Zelda+Sheik
Rating: Zelda: 60:40; Sheik: 40:60; Overall: 40:60
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198375


Zero Suit Samus
Rating: 50:50
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198546


Bowser
Rating: 55:45
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198757


Luigi
Rating: 55:45
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198858


Peach
Rating: 50:50
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198969


Ike
Rating: 60:40
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199200


Lucas
Rating: 60:40
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199393


Ness
Rating: 55:45
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199570


Mario
Rating: 55:45
Discussion (p. 1-4):
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188329

Mario is really tricky. He has decent combos to rack damage, fast move with decent knockback (dsmash) and the Fludd, Fire Balls and the cape to gimp you.
The first thing to mention is that you should not use the Reflector to stop fireballs if Mario is rather close - he'll avoid the fireball and punish your lag. Use the Reflectos to get out of combos asap and Powershield the fireballs. That way you covered the biggest threats Mario has on you. Mario lacks range, which you should ruthlessly make use of. Wolfs bair easily beats all of Marios moves, so don't hesitate to stay away from him ... you'll be fine as long as you remember to shield those fireballs.
If he knocks you off the stage expect him to gimp you ... he has many tools to do so but as long as you manage to DI above the stage you're always in a safe position. If you recover from below however ... you basically lost your stock. The fludd will bounce you out of range to grab the ledge. Mario is hard to get used to but as long as you remember the basics Wolf has a slight advantage.


Pokemon Trainer
Rating: Squirtle: 45:55; Ivysaur: 60:40; Charizard: 55:45; Overall: 55:45
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199769


Samus
Rating: 60:40
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199983

Samus - despite her being badly nerved from Melee - can still be a challange if you don't play smart. She's not only heavy but she also has an excellent recovery - if you fail to keep the dmsash fresh you'll have a hard time to finish her off. She always has these issues though, especially against Wolf, whose weight is really helpful in this match-up. Her best move is the zair but if Samus spams it it's really predictable. Just jump away and use lasers and you'll eventually force her to approach. The reflector stops her from projectile camping and in close range Wolf is not only faster but also has a range advantage. Just make sure to keep your dsmash fresh and rack up enough damage (this can be really hard against a devensive Samus!) you'll have the advantage.


Yoshi
Rating: 60:40
Discussion
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200192


Sonic
Rating: 55:45
Discussion
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200397

Sonic is one of the more underrated characters in the game. You shouldn't underrate him, he has quite a lot of things going for him: He is extremely mobile - even vertically, he has an amazing dash grab, a mean tech chase and his weight (he's not light!) in combination with his godly recovery make him an opponent that is not only perfectly capable to beat Wolf but is also very likely to actually do so if you don't take him seriously. Don't go offstage against him, he has a great offstage game. Don't be hasty either - he can grab you out of every mistake you make, since he runs so fast. Bair and fair are the key to keep him at distance as usual and most of his moves aren't hard to shine. Blaster is also very useful in this match-up since Sonic has no projectile. What gives Wolf the edge is the fact that Wolf is heavy enough not to die anytime soon - landing a KO move is difficult, since his best one (fsmash) is rather slow ironically.


Jigglypuff
Rating: 70:30
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200896


Ganondorf
Rating: 70:30
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201074


Link
Rating: 60:40
Discussion (p. 6):
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188329&page=6


Captain Falcon
Rating: 65:35
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201074

King Dedede

Things to look out for:
- Chaingrab, duh. Don't get grabbed!
- Waddle Dee's. They block blasters and attacks. Not to be underestimated.
- His amazing recovery and weight.
- Beware his range and crazy disjointed hitboxes.

How to beat him:
- Stay spaced, try to stay away from him. Use blasters to outcamp him.
- On the ground, Dedede has a set of laggy and non-laggy attacks. Interrupt his non-laggy attacks with blaster and punish his smashes with whatever you have at your disposal.
- In the air, Dedede outranges most of your attacks.

Explanation:

King Dedede is a bad match-up for Wolf, but you won't get *****. Wolf has a few tricks up his sleeve that he can use against Dedede.

Blasters will help you to stay spaced and to stay away from Dedede. Sure, he can throw Waddle Dee's, but Blaster is better. What else do you need to know? He has mostly more range and more lag. On the ground, his non-laggy attacks (tilts) can be drilled with your blaster. Smashes can be punished. Watch out for his grabs, as he can chaingrab you pretty easily. Pick a stage with platforms so you can stay away from his grabs when necessary. I like to pick Hanenbow, but it's probably not allowed in most tourney's.

Dedede has a great recovery, so trying to edgeguard him will be difficult. With his multiple jumps, and great super armor-filled up+b, all you can do is spike and use bair from the edge and hope it'll work. Remember that his Up+B has SAF until he is at the apex of his jump, meaning you could spike him out of it at the very end, or interrupt when he's coming down to the stage.

Rating:

40:60

Even with the chaingrabs, this match-up definitely isn't hopeless. Wolf still has a good shot at winning, as long as you stay mostly defensive, stay spaced and simply don't get grabbed!

Actually...it's-a mario time!

I'll change the title so it becomes more obvious^^

thanks for the input though...

Ah, I thought it was just a match-up thread in general.

Well, I can't really say much about Mario that hasn't already been said.

I don't fight many marios, but this will help me when I do :D

Mario isn't very commonly used. That's why it's all the more important to deal with him in-depth

Awesome, this thread is a spirit lifter in this troubled times.

Anyway, I don't fight many Marios myself but a good Mario can be trouble, specially gimpying your recovery with that god**** cape.

his fireballs are a great aproach that I struggle with, what I mean is if I shield he can just presure me with more fireballs, if I reflect them he just punishes me from the air during my lag, if I do nothing I'll be hit by the fireballs (obviously <_<); So what I do is jump and aerial aproach him, that seems to work best, but seeing as it's the only good thing you can do, it's gonna get predictable thus having Mario figure out a way to counter it.

Therefore as Gheb said, spacing is key during this match, camping is an option, but I prefer being aggresive and never let him get a chance to breath, after you've done whatever combo just get away and prepare to start over.

Gheb, you are my hero.

Mario is a PAIN IN THE ***. All the gimping makes my head spin, the fireballs, the fludd, and the cape. He can also juggle pretty well with utilts and uairs. Haven't played any good marios, but it seems like in the air a well-spaced bair will win out over most, if not all, of mario's aerials.

Something I have yet to actually try, but just throwing it out there, you know how after a projectile hits your reflector you can roll? What if you just hold your reflector when he's approaching with fireballs, when he's close you use the last one to roll back (or forward, I don't have enough experience in the matchup to know what the better option would be) and then just punish, rolling back and laser sound like it could be helpful.

But seriously. The gimping. Its so ridiculous. Illusion cancelling to get the ledge or something similar might work to keep the mario guessing as to where you're going, so the matchup seems to be in our favor as long as we avoid getting gimped. Basically, don't get hit (for Dedede, don't get grabbed and its all good, but thats easier said than done)

Agreed, ledgegame is definitely something you have to mix up in this matchup. But the thing is, you own him on the air and ground. You do outrange the vast majority of Mario's attacks. You absolutely have to keep the pressure on, don't let him charge up FLUDD, or whatever it's called. Spacing is a key in this matchup.

I personally believe the gimping goes both ways, especially if you can edgehog well. Mario's recovery is in no way special.

Wait, does Mario have a Down B like luigi's where he can get extra height? I don't think so, but I'm not sure.

Aerials... his Bair may be annoying, but yours outranges his. Own in the air, blaster for spacing, mix up your ledgegame... and you should be good. Wolf does have the advantage in this one.

Imo you should have started this matchup thread with a popular tournament character.

But Mario is a plumber, so he starts.

But seriously, as long as we get everyone down, we're good. And I'd personally save them for last, just to be sure it's up to date with the current metagame.

Mario and wolf are even 50:50
and his recovery isn't so bad
i want to see try gimp fireballs coming at you as well as the cape =]

vato_break said:

Mario and wolf are even 50:50
and his recovery isn't so bad
i want to see try gimp fireballs coming at you as well as the cape =]

Click to expand...

Marios recovery is indeed not bad but Wolf usually KO's him with his dsmash before he can even get the chance to recover.

And about gimping: I already covered that. It's Marios advantage but he has troubles getting him there. I fail to see any justification of the 50:50 rating. Wolf owns Mario in the air and on the ground. How can Mario even get the chance to gimp Wolf? I'd like to hear some good arguments

That's right, the cape can be used to stall in the air, silly me ^^. So Mario's recovery isn't quite as bad when he's above the stage. But it's below the stage I'm talking about, can't throw fire balls up, cant do much with the cape while you're down there. And then Wolf has the edgehog. Pretty much same thing with Wolf, if he's below the stage and he has to use Fire Wolf... easy edgehog. Above the stage with Wolf you just have to avoid the Cape and fire balls xD Save your jump.

But I don't think it's so much the gimping that puts Wolf at the advantage, even though Mario can edgeguard well. Wolf beats Mario on-stage. And in the air. The multiple aerial attacks Mario has do help. however Bair just beats them =/ Plus Wolf has the weight advantage, he's heavier than Mario. Wolf has the range advantage and the Weight advantage. The only thing is Wolf's recovery.

60:40 Wolf's advantage. It's not major, definitely still winnable. But Wolf has the advantage.

Edit: Woo hoo, 123 posts xD

If a good mario gets you off the stage and interrupts your 2nd jump with a fireball forcing you to upB or sideB can cape you pretty badly. SideB is harder to cape, but upB is just asking for it. Basically upB should be avoided as much as possible in this matchup. Mario is also not the most difficult opponent to ledgehog though, so that somewhat balances it out.

Wolf wins in everything but gimping and juggling potential, so its more of playing the right kind of game. Reflector comes in really handy for anti-juggling purposes. I suppose if I had to put numbers on it, 60:40 wolf, maybe a little bit higher, but mario's gimping skills give him a chance.

Yeah, Marios gimping usually costs me a stock but never caused me to lose an entire match.

actually wolf isn't even hard... The juggling Mario has on wolf is a big problem for him also his gimping.


I'd say either even or wolf with a slight advantage..

Gheb_01 said:

Marios recovery is indeed not bad but Wolf usually KO's him with his dsmash before he can even get the chance to recover.

And about gimping: I already covered that. It's Marios advantage but he has troubles getting him there. I fail to see any justification of the 50:50 rating. Wolf owns Mario in the air and on the ground. How can Mario even get the chance to gimp Wolf? I'd like to hear some good arguments

Click to expand...

How does mario have trouble getting him there?

BO X7 said:

actually wolf isn't even hard... The juggling Mario has on wolf is a big problem for him also his gimping.


I'd say either even or wolf with a slight advantage..

Click to expand...

Juggling doesn't happen in Brawl, any juggling done above 40% is the person's mistake. Mario can Utilt lock Wolf until about 40%, but that's it. So that by no means justifies 50:50 =P That's also if the Wolf gets into the Utilt lock in the first place =P

vato_break said:

How does mario have trouble getting him there?

Click to expand...

Due to Brawl's floatier physics engine + DI, people tend to be above the stage, which is excellent for Wolf, fireballs tend not to go up, and Mario's only realistic option is the cape. And that requires skill from the Mario to land, and skill from the Wolf to avoid.

Juggling doesn't happen in Brawl, any juggling done above 40% is the person's mistake. Mario can Utilt lock Wolf until about 40%, but that's it. So that by no means justifies 50:50 =P That's also if the Wolf gets into the Utilt lock in the first place =P

Click to expand...

Juggling doesn't exist in brawl? don't u mean combos don't exist in brawl? >_> If juggling didn't exist Mario wouldn't have and huge advantage to rob... If it didn't exist than how can ario still Uair bind? And there are many ways to get wolf in a Utilt lock.

Uair bind? o.O I'm unfamiliar with that term, could you please explain?

And there really aren't many ways to get Wolf into a Utilt lock, because, you have to land a Utilt. So, the only way to get Wolf into a Utilt lock is to hit him with Utlt, correct? Can you get him into a Utilt lock WITHOUT hitting a Utilt? xD

And I'm saying the "Juggling" doesn't happen after around 40-50% depending on how the Wolf DIs.

I would put this matchup at 55-45 in favor of Wolf.

I mean, I know Wolf has a very slight advantage, for reasons already stated, but 60-40 seems a bit much.

Really? I've been kinda thinking about a 55-45. But Wolf just owns Mario in the Air, Wolf can simply outspace Mario. >_< And with the whole weight thing, Wolf is heavier than Mario, it's going to take more to kill Wolf than it will to kill Mario. I think it's a little more than a slight advantage, but not like a super advantage or anything.

ArcPoint said:

Really? I've been kinda thinking about a 55-45. But Wolf just owns Mario in the Air, Wolf can simply outspace Mario. >_< And with the whole weight thing, Wolf is heavier than Mario, it's going to take more to kill Wolf than it will to kill Mario. I think it's a little more than a slight advantage, but not like a super advantage or anything.

Click to expand...

I will give the outspacing, but Mario can easuily play the punishment game, thanks to his cape.


particularly easily, I might add.


As for the outkilling argument, let's compare the actual numbers before we say that's a definite argument.

Blackbelt said:

I would put this matchup at 55-45 in favor of Wolf.

I mean, I know Wolf has a very slight advantage, for reasons already stated, but 60-40 seems a bit much.

Click to expand...

Nah, 60-40 Wolfs favor sounds just right, you can do a lot against Mario as long as u keep him in the air and u stay away from the edge so he CAN'T GIMP you,. Just play it safe, let him come to you , and DESTROY HIM.

ArcPoint said:

Uair bind? o.O I'm unfamiliar with that term, could you please explain?

And there really aren't many ways to get Wolf into a Utilt lock, because, you have to land a Utilt. So, the only way to get Wolf into a Utilt lock is to hit him with Utlt, correct? Can you get him into a Utilt lock WITHOUT hitting a Utilt? xD

And I'm saying the "Juggling" doesn't happen after around 40-50% depending on how the Wolf DIs.

Click to expand...

Constant chain of Uairs after Uairs. Very easy to pull off on wolf even after 50%

for the Utilt.. It isn't hard to see.

-Blocking a Fsmash or Dsmash from wolf will make him suseptible to a Utilt.
-Bair to Utilt
-Fireball to Utilt
-Uair to Utilt
-Reverse Uair to Utilt
-Dthrow to Utilt
-Usmash to Utilt

Heck.. u can even pull off 2 Usmashes on wolf because of his weight.

BO X7 said:

Constant chain of Uairs after Uairs. Very easy to pull off on wolf even after 50%

Click to expand...

And until what percent do they stop? You sure this is inescapable? Brawl's hitstun is pretty low keep in mind =P

BO X7 said:

for the Utilt.. It isn't hard to see.

-Blocking a Fsmash or Dsmash from wolf will make him suseptible to a Utilt.

Click to expand...

I'll give you that one, thank you Brawl's super-low shieldstun xD

BO X7 said:

-Bair to Utilt
-Fireball to Utilt
-Uair to Utilt
-Reverse Uair to Utilt
-Dthrow to Utilt
-Usmash to Utilt

Click to expand...

Are these a list of true combos? If not, they can all be shielded/rolled out of.

Usmash -> Utilt and Dthrow -> Utilt seem like they might be at zero percent.

BO X7 said:

Heck.. u can even pull off 2 Usmashes on wolf because of his weight.

Click to expand...

It's not so much his weight, it's the fact that he's a fastfaller =/

Wario is actually heavier than Wolf, yet he doesn't fall nearly as fast D=

----

I will give the outspacing, but Mario can easuily play the punishment game, thanks to his cape.

Click to expand...

I don't see how the cape plays in punishing, unless you know beforehand exactly what move Wolf is going to do, the cape won't come out fast enough to reverse it, because things like Wolf's bair come out in only 6 frames. Even if you do manage to reverse it, he can still Fsmash you before you put the cape back/start up whatever punishing move.

A good Wolf will be hard to punish, simply because Fair and Bair are lagless upon landing (Fair only if you do it right =P ) It's just the follow ups after the aerials you have to watch out for xD

Speaking of which, if you reversed a Fsmash, wouldn't Wolf go too far away for you to punish in time? Wouldn't it be better to just shield, like every other character can do agaisnt Wolf? =P

As for the outkilling argument, let's compare the actual numbers before we say that's a definite argument.

Click to expand...

I know for a fact that Wolf is heavier than Mario, but I didn't quite take into account the killing power of each other's "kill moves"

In theory, Wolf has a better kill move (Mario's Dsmash doesn't have as much knockback as Wolf's Dsmash/Mario's Fsmash right? Agh, I need to test this)

Both Wolf's Dsmash and Mario's Fsmash need to be spaced, otherwise they won't get as much knockback.

Both are for the kill, nothing else, so in theory they should be completely fresh (As in, has the knockback that can only be achieved three times per match [once per stock])

However, Wolf's Dsmash comes out faster than Mario's Fsmash.

And now.. off to test the knockback of Wolf vs Mario's Smashes...

Edit: -------------------------------------------------------

Wolf's Semi Fresh (Not completely fresh, but as fresh as you can get it after you've used it) Dsmash will kill Mario at 115 % from the center of FD. I used training mode, so yeah =P

Mario's Semi Fresh Fsmash will kill Wolf at 115% as well, little surprised there.

Mario's Semi Fresh Dsmash will kill Wolf at 140%, so that's not as good as a kill option.

Mario's Semi Fresh Usmash will kill wolf at 135% from FD.

Both Mario's Fsmash and Wolf's Dsmash have about the same range. The only difference is the fact that Wolf's Dsmash comes out much faster than Mario's Fsmash. And thus is a bit easier to hit with. So I'd say Wolf has an easier time killing than Mario. But not by a whole lot.

Hitstun isn't really the factor. its the fact that wolf can't do much about it.

and yes those Utilts work at low percents.

Also what do u think about the speed of Mario's Dsmah? if a mario player is pretty close they won't use fsmash. Its too slow, and is sweespotted when spaced correctly

BO X7 said:

Hitstun isn't really the factor. its the fact that wolf can't do much about it.

and yes those Utilts work at low percents.

Also what do u think about the speed of Mario's Dsmah? if a mario player is pretty close they won't use fsmash. Its too slow, and is sweespotted when spaced correctly

Click to expand...

All of those Utilts combos work at zero?

And with the lack of hitstun, it means Wolf can airdodge... Or better, yet, Reflector, make use of those invincibility frames ^^

And as for Mario's Dsmash.. it goes at about the same speed as Wolf's, however it doesn't have as much knockback as Wolf's Dsmash. Or maybe it does, it just doesn't kill Wolf at the same percent Wolf can kill Mario with Wolf's Dsmash. =P

Not sure, but I think WOlf's Dsmash outranges Mario's... not sure, it just doesn't seem that Mario's Dsmash reaches as far as Mario's Fsmash . Dunno.

All the uptilts work at zero
Because how heavy wolf is he can't air dodge until after maybe the 3rd uptilt depending on what his percent is and this can easily lead to a upair, bair,upsmash,or Fsmash also depending which way wolf DIs too

If the first part of the combo hits it's almost guarantee'd that that uptilt will hit i think...


Mario's Dsmash has more range than wolfs but, is a bit slower...

A stutter-step Fsmash gets almost double the range of a dsmash ...


EDIT:about 5 uptilts if he's at zero

Mario's Dsmash may not be stronger of faster but it has enough knockback to send him off the stage for an easy gimp.

Wait. Now you're assuming that Wolf uses his fsmash or dsmash and Marios gonna punish him. But no skilled player will use these moves, unless he's 100% sure to hit/not to get punished. You're assuming bad tactics or lack of skill as reason for Mario to have a 50:50 math-up? That's not what a tier list is about.
Wolf doesn't need these moves outside of surprising or finishing, especially not against Mario, who is outranged by almost everything, not only by Wolfs laggier moves. Wolfs bair and dtilt pretty much outrange every attack of Mario and Marios fsmash is easy to spotdodge (not a good punishing move). Dsamsh is better but works only on high percantages.

Marios problem is not, that he lacks options in offense against Wolf but that he has problems to make use of his options. Mario has few chances to break through a clevery spun web of bairs and blasters. That's the same thing as the gimping. Mario can do it but a good Wolf gives him little chances to break through. Mario lacks the range to get through.

And about the combos: Yes, Mario can combo Wolf but then again he needs to have higher percentages because Wolf is extremely fast to finish his opponents off, if he gets the chance. A Mario without a percentage lead always has a clear disadvantage against Wolf. Wolf isn't easy to finish without gimping and I can't see how what Mario can do to get Wolf in such dangerous situations. He can't approach - Wolfs bair destroys it, he can't camp either. He can't win in close combat. Wolf has better range and is equally fast, if the Wolf is not a n00b, who spams fsmash.

Wolf can't exactly camp Mario either. Falco's laser>>Wolf's lasers Mario can cope with both because of the cape.

Just because someone has more range than mario doesn't make it hard for Mario to approach them.

Both Rob and Ike have more range than Mario ( and more range than wolf) but that doesn't mean they are beating Mario just because he has less range.

Umm a skilled player isn't perfect. They make mistakes. I'm sure Ken, Azen, and M2K got sheilgrabbed like a hundred times. Which is why a Mario player can sheild grab a Fsmash attempt when expected.

and Mario can juggle wolf easier with lower percents.

I do agree that he beats Mario 6:4. I never said it was only 50:50. I said it was either 6:4 or 5:5.

Answers in red

BO X7 said:

Wolf can't exactly camp Mario either. Falco's laser>>Wolf's lasers Mario can cope with both because of the cape.

I didn't say, that Wolf outcamps Mario. I just said that Mario can't camp against Wolf. Wolf can force Mario to approach b/c his projectile is somewhat better, even if Mario has the cape

Just because someone has more range than mario doesn't make it hard for Mario to approach them.

Both Rob and Ike have more range than Mario ( and more range than wolf) but that doesn't mean they are beating Mario just because he has less range.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I assume, that approaching ROB and Ike (and perhaps most other characters) includes his fireballs. They don't work against Wolfs reflector.

Umm a skilled player isn't perfect. They make mistakes. I'm sure Ken, Azen, and M2K got sheilgrabbed like a hundred times. Which is why a Mario player can sheild grab a Fsmash attempt when expected.

No doubts about that. I just find it annoying to hear people say:"Wolfs attacks are laggy, make use of it." Of course Wolf has some very laggy attacks but that doesn't mean, that a skilled player suffers from that. Every character has moves that are more laggy than others. Mario is no exception. I might as well say:"Marios Fsmash has a windup and a cooldown lag, so he's slow." You know it's not like that.

and Mario can juggle wolf easier with lower percents.

I already covered that in the OP

I do agree that he beats Mario 6:4. I never said it was only 50:50. I said it was either 6:4 or
5:5.

I know. Don't worry about that. In fact your counter standpoind is very appreciated to get some other ideas.

Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I assume, that approaching ROB and Ike (and perhaps most other characters) includes his fireballs. They don't work against Wolfs reflector.

Click to expand...

I will never over use Fireballs against an Oponent that nullifies that approach.

G&W
Ness
Lucas
Zelda
Wolf
etc

Mario can also apprach with SH Nair's and RaR Bairs, which has enough priority to stop Mk's whorenado. And its one Mario's attacks that has the most range which can be used to space well when playing defensive.

I already covered that in the OP

Click to expand...

My mistake then.

Also Wolf's Bair's can be perfect sheilded when approaching. Wolf has better approaching options.. but its not by far.

BO X7 said:

I will never over use Fireballs against an Oponent that nullifies that approach.

G&W
Ness
Lucas
Zelda
Wolf
etc

Mario can also apprach with SH Nair's and RaR Bairs, which has enough priority to stop Mk's whorenado. And its one Mario's attacks that has the most range which can be used to space well when playing defensive.

Click to expand...

Are you implying, that Marios bair beats Wolfs bair? It seems to be that way. I'm also not sure whether Marios bair cancels Wolfs blaster.

BO X7 said:

]Also Wolf's Bair's can be perfect sheilded when approaching. Wolf has better approaching options.. but its not by far.

Click to expand...

The point is, that Mario has to approach Wolf. Wolfs ranged game is just better than Marios. Wolfs approach isn't much better but there aren't many scenarios, where Wolf desperately wants to approach Mario anyways.

I know that Marios bair has good range and priority but I don't think it beats Blaster, Bair and 0 lag fair, which are some of Wolfs best options to destroy approaches.

BO X7 said:

I will never over use Fireballs against an Oponent that nullifies that approach.

Mario can also apprach with SH Nair's and RaR Bairs, which has enough priority to stop Mk's whorenado. And its one Mario's attacks that has the most range which can be used to space well when playing defensive.

Also Wolf's Bair's can be perfect sheilded when approaching. Wolf has better approaching options.. but its not by far.

Click to expand...

I'm really curious as to better approaching options for Wolf, but in any case, why would Wolf approach Mario? Camping is on Wolf's side. For mario's bair approach, its more or less like wolf's bair approach, so the same things can counter it, like perfect shielding. Aerial lasers could also stop mario's bair approach and give wolf a good opportunity to go on the offensive by messing up mario's momentum.

Ishieymoro said:

I'm really curious as to better approaching options for Wolf, but in any case, why would Wolf approach Mario? Camping is on Wolf's side. For mario's bair approach, its more or less like wolf's bair approach, so the same things can counter it, like perfect shielding. Aerial lasers could also stop mario's bair approach and give wolf a good opportunity to go on the offensive by messing up mario's momentum.

Click to expand...

I never said that wolf has to approach Mario. I was simply implying that that mario has more than 1 approach.

but I don't think it beats Blaster

Click to expand...

Lol i'm ******** if I ever use Mario's Bair against wolf's laser. I'd rather cape it.

yea wolf pretty much blows............easy to gimp can be comboed....badly

and has a horriable recovery....IMO wolf is probly one of the easiest to fight next to gannon and ike.....

and wolf doesnt have the advantage over mario....atleast not mine.....i mean there are some good ones like

germ
candy
chinesahh

but other then that na wolf is bad....

No offense to you boss, you play a great Mario, just gonna state some opinions.

Wolf's recovery isn't horrible. UpB is mediocre, but the SideB is great. The UpB isn't even as bad as people make it out to be if you know what you're doing. Hell, you can even travel underneath Smashville and recover on the other side. Most characters can't do that.

As far as being bad, yeah he can be combo'd at low percents by some characters but he still has an excellent ground game, air game and projectile. His worst matchup is DDD, but at least he doesn't get infinite grabbed like Mario does.