Priority

Infinitysmash · Aug 20, 2008

I see a lot of posts on this board complaining about priority of Metaknight's attacks and I want to clear something up real quick.

Priority as the people of this board talk about it does not exist. What you are talking about when you are saying priority is not actually priority of moves, but the range and hitboxes on the move.

This is not to say that priority doesn't exist at all in Brawl, obviously some moves are stronger than others and will hit through most moves. (Ike's forward smash is a good example.)

Let's set up a few scenarios to describe what I mean:

Two players are playing against each other as Metaknight. Player A uses their tornado, player B hits them with their forward air and it hits them out of the tornado. Why does this work? Because Metaknight's sword has no hitboxes on the tip and can reach in to hit the other Metaknight player through the tornado's hiboxes. You are NOT using a move with more priority, just using a move with better range.

Player A is Metaknight and player B is DeDeDe. Metaknight uses hit tornado and DeDeDe hits Metaknight with his up tilt through the tornado. Why does this work? DeDeDe leans back before he actually attacks on his up tilt, putting him out of range of the actual tornado long enough for him to go around the hitboxes on the tornado to hit him with a stronger move. DeDeDe is NOT just using a move with more priority, but some wicked hitbox dancing before the move makes him hit you instead of getting hit. (This also applies to Yoshi's up smash. On a related note, don't ever play limbo with Yoshi; you'll lose.)

Player A is Metaknight and player B is Snake. Metaknight glides in to do a glide attack and gets an up tilt to the face and dies. This is because Snake's up tilt has a disjointed hitbox and has better range than Metaknight's glide attack. At best, Metaknight's glide attack with clash with the up tilt and both moves will cancel. Snake is NOT using a move with more priority, just using a move with better range.

Last but not least (since obviously I can't go over every single example in the game) both players are playing as Metaknight. Player A is in controller port 4 and player B is in controller port 2. Both players do their tornado at the same time. Player 4 gets hit by player 2's tornado. How? Isn't player 4 supposed to take priority? I don't think so. I think this theory was made up by someone who did not do enough testing when the game very first came out. How does this work? Because player 2 hit the middle of player 4's tornado with the top part of theirs. The top of the tornado has a wider array of hitboxes than the middle/bottom of it and it scooped the other player out of their tornado. This is NOT 'player 4 priority,' but is instead another case of hitboxes going around other hitboxes.

This is not a theory, this is a list of facts that I have seen true time and time again after playing this game entirely too much. Discuss.

ckm · Aug 20, 2008

its funny, I was just thinking about this today. more specifically, I was thinking about how everyone says "metaknight has good priority arials"... honestly, I dont agree with this much... they are just very fast (enabling you to hit the opponent during the startup lag on their arial) and fairly disjointed.

its good you brought this up.

Hylian · Aug 20, 2008

Meh, most of this information is wrong.

I have to go to work so I can't really elaborate atm but for example, D3's utilt has invincibility frames, which is why it goes through the nado, not because he "Moves back" >_>.

Infinitysmash · Aug 20, 2008

Hylian said:
Meh, most of this information is wrong.

I have to go to work so I can't really elaborate atm but for example, D3's utilt has invincibility frames, which is why it goes through the nado, not because he "Moves back" >_>.

You wouldn't agree with me if someone paid you to anyway, dude.

chronoize · Aug 20, 2008

i know you told me about this yesterday, but now that i read your examples and stuff it makes sense.

i started thinking about my match with you wolf vs mk.
why exactly did my reflector knock you out of your tornado, because wolf gets invincibility frames and then the reflector hits you.

then i thought how come some projectiles can knock you out of your tornado and some can't.
some projectiles such as wolf's or falco's lasers cant be tech'ed. so it goes right through the tornado.

interesting read.

DEV64 · Aug 20, 2008

i cant believe i never thought of this it makes a lot of since now that i read it and understand it.

N.O.T.A.-SrsC@ · Aug 20, 2008

]

I_Am_Infinity said:
You wouldn't agree with me if someone paid you to anyway, dude.

In any case, there's a lot of this flying around anyway. Invincibility frames don't equal priority in this sense either. Priority doesn't exist.

Hylian · Aug 20, 2008

I_Am_Infinity said:
You wouldn't agree with me if someone paid you to anyway, dude.

What are you implying? I don't have a problem with you at all. I point out all false information I see on the boards, as it is not healthy for the community to spread false information.

I know what you are trying to say with this thread, I was just pointing out that several of your facts are incorrect.

I apologize for pointing out your mistakes, but I don't know why you would respond so maliciously. It's kind of upsetting to be ridiculed when trying to help someone.

chronoize · Aug 21, 2008

Hylian said:
What are you implying? I don't have a problem with you at all. I point out all false information I see on the boards, as it is not healthy for the community to spread false information.

I know what you are trying to say with this thread, I was just pointing out that several of your facts are incorrect.

I apologize for pointing out your mistakes, but I don't know why you would respond so maliciously. It's kind of upsetting to be ridiculed when trying to help someone.

before reading this post of yours i thought you totally disregarded his argument. maybe he read it the same way i did.

unit182 · Aug 21, 2008

well I learned something new today. How come I thought there would be an over 9000 reference? Maybe I should stay away from GFaqs. does this make snake even better?

Infinitysmash · Aug 21, 2008

It's probably just the way you come across a lot of the time dude, it always feels like you're trying to argue. No hard feelings

Care to point out what I said that was wrong aside from the DeDeDe thing? I also researched that a bit, and every other character that has invincibility frames on any of their moves they flash white for a couple of frames. I don't see that on DeDeDe's up tilt.

Hylian · Aug 21, 2008

chronoize said:
before reading this post of yours i thought you totally disregarded his argument. maybe he read it the same way i did.

Reguardless of how he read my post his statement shows his general impression of me, which apparently isn't good.

In reguards to the topic: He never gave a difinitive definition for priority, and is basically arguing semantics. It's a little confusing.

Edit: I am on my wii, so I can't really type a lot

.

D3 does actually flash during his utilt though lol >_>.

N.O.T.A.-SrsC@ · Aug 21, 2008

to put it bluntly: Priority is what happens when p1 and p4 use the exact same move at the exact same time and p1 gets the FARRRRR beaten out of him./her. If my understanding is correct, that is.

Infinitysmash · Aug 21, 2008

Hylian said:
Reguardless of how he read my post his statement shows his general impression of me, which apparently isn't good.

In reguards to the topic: He never gave a difinitive definition for priority, and is basically arguing semantics. It's a little confusing.

Edit: I am on my wii, so I can't really type a lot .

D3 does actually flash during his utilt though lol >_>.

Priority - Where one move supposedly beats the other by direct game programming. If one move has higher priority than another then it will always beat it.

What I'm trying to say is that this does not exist in the quantity and or manner that the general Smash community thinks it does. Most of what people claim is priority is actually hitboxes going around other hitboxes. It's ironic that you say you don't want the Smash community misinformed and that I'm trying to clear up things as well. In the end our goal is probably the same.

N.O.T.A.-SrsC@ said:
to put it bluntly: Priority is what happens when p1 and p4 use the exact same move at the exact same time and p1 gets the FARRRRR beaten out of him./her. If my understanding is correct, that is.

That's controller port priority and that is actually not what I'm talking about. I also don't think that actually exists, TBH.

infomon · Aug 21, 2008

I recommend that this discussion of priority be taken to the Physics of Attacks thread (<-- link)

I_Am_Infinity, I agree that "priority does not exist"; at least, not in the way that people tend to think. The word "priority" is extremely misleading. Nonetheless, it probably is the right word to describe many things about Brawl, if we can get past the misconceptions. So let's just use it, and try to determine the truth about how priority works.

For example, there is a mechanism by which attacks (I mean their hitboxes) can clank (also called clashing, and other stuff too lol). And it is claimed that this is based on the relative damage they would cause, (if the attacks would deal within 10% then they clank), although I haven't tested that myself. Also, this does not happen for all attacks; especially Aerials seem immune, in general, to this consideration.

There are a lot of aspects of the game that can give the appearance of priority; heavy/super/faux-super armor, grab-type attacks (which I think falls under "faux-super armor"), projectiles and attacks that seem to have projectile-properties (Olimar's Pikminny aerials can clank against other aerials, while most aerials do not, as far my experiments have shown), etc....

Actually I think the "super armor" and "invincibility frame" type stuff in Brawl might all be just a way the interactions of hitboxes and hurtboxes are designed. Also for clarification, when I say "clank", I mean when a little blue-grey "clank bubble" appears.

I don't think anyone has completely figured out how Brawl works, but I'd like to work on this, and with the community's help. If we can stop arguing about it, and just cooperatively work on testing our theories and stuff...

DMG · Aug 22, 2008

Ground attacks have set values of priority, while air attacks are void of that priority (there are exceptions, but few). If a ground attack has a lower priority but more range than a higher priority move, then the move with better range reaches out and hits the opponent while you don't have a scratch.

Basically, every ground attack has a set priority, but it can be hard to tell what has better priority when some of the lower priority moves happen to have better range than higher priority moves. Priority isn't based on range, but more based on knockback/damage/things like that. Falcon Punch has more priority than G&W's Dtilt, but if you space yourself outside the punch range, you can "beat out" Falcon Punch with a Dtilt.

For aerials, it is completely based on range. If a move with less range beats out a move with greater range, it is because either the short range move came out faster/first, or your character is out of the path of the larger hitbox and the short hitbox comes in at an angle that is vulnerable. G&W's Dair has more range than Wario's Fair, but I can knock him out of the air if I hit from the side, or if I pull it out before his hitbox starts.

I think the main confusion on priority is that people tend to think range on the ground has to do with priority, when it is really the aerials that deal exclusively with range.

0RLY · Aug 22, 2008

dr.mario guy said:
Ground attacks have set values of priority, while air attacks are void of that priority (there are exceptions, but few). If a ground attack has a lower priority but more range than a higher priority move, then the move with better range reaches out and hits the opponent while you don't have a scratch.

Basically, every ground attack has a set priority, but it can be hard to tell what has better priority when some of the lower priority moves happen to have better range than higher priority moves. Priority isn't based on range, but more based on knockback/damage/things like that. Falcon Punch has more priority than G&W's Dtilt, but if you space yourself outside the punch range, you can "beat out" Falcon Punch with a Dtilt.

For aerials, it is completely based on range. If a move with less range beats out a move with greater range, it is because either the short range move came out faster/first, or your character is out of the path of the larger hitbox and the short hitbox comes in at an angle that is vulnerable. G&W's Dair has more range than Wario's Fair, but I can knock him out of the air if I hit from the side, or if I pull it out before his hitbox starts.

I think the main confusion on priority is that people tend to think range on the ground has to do with priority, when it is really the aerials that deal exclusively with range.

This.

The tornado goes through DK's ftilt, but not Marth's. That's because DK's arm is both a hitbox and a hurtbox. DK can both deal and receive damage from his outstretched arm. Marth can only deal damage with his sword. His sword won't take damage.

MK's tornado is multi-hit. It can cancel out other hitboxes with a clash while still continuing with the move. My friend said that... not sure if he's right or not. I don't believe he goes on smashboards.

felix45 · Aug 22, 2008

lol, infinity is right.

no such thing as priority. game creators dont go through assigning attacks priority. they assign hitbox size, how long hitboxes last, whether you gain invincibility during attacks, etc. which is misread by people as "priority".

so yeah, listen to infinity, he's a smart player and knows what he is talking about. I remember trying to explain this to SCOTU. it was pretty hilarious actually how ignorant he was XD

infomon · Aug 22, 2008

dr.mario guy said:
Ground attacks have set values of priority, while air attacks are void of that priority (there are exceptions, but few). If a ground attack has a lower priority but more range than a higher priority move, then the move with better range reaches out and hits the opponent while you don't have a scratch.

No, there's more going on here than you're talking about. Hitboxes can clash, hitboxes can be cancelled (for a particular opponent), and attacks can be interrupted.

Clash: When two hitboxes meet, and you see a little blue-grey "clash bubble" appear. I think this always means that a hitbox has been cancelled, but not necessarily both of them. That is, when two hitboxes hit, it might be that only one of them clashed, or they both might have clashed.

Hitbox cancel: When a hitbox has either been shielded, landed on an enemy, or been clashed against another hitbox. The enemy becomes impervious to the hitbox for the rest of its duration. That is, a single-hit attack will not harm you more than once. The hitbox may still hit others, though. And on a multi-hit attack, each hit is a fresh hitbox that needs to be cancelled.

Interruption: When your character stops performing an attack because of a clash. It seems that regular ground attacks will be interrupted by a clash if the enemy hitbox would cause within 10% damage of your hitbox.

Aerials are unique in that they do not clash, and so cannot be interrupted (by opposing hitboxes), but an aerial hitbox can be cancelled; for example, by your shield. (Note that the shield will show a "clash bubble", indicating that your shield has clashed against the attack, and taken the corresponding damage.)

I can give you examples you can try in training mode to easily demonstrate all three of these phenomena, and why that 10% magic number seems to be correct.

Please see my post [here] for a more in-depth description of these. Although, this is just my current theory, and I gladly await more evidence, exceptions, counter-examples, etc. But that thread states some important exceptions that I am not mentioning here, and that dr.mario guy also alluded to.

dr.mario guy said:
Priority isn't based on range, but more based on knockback/damage/things like that.

The perception of priority is based on hitbox/hurtbox sizes and range, relative damage of attacks leading to clashes and/or interruptions, the rapidity of hits in multi-hit attacks, the disjointedness of hitboxes from hurtboxes, unique properties of projectile-type attacks like Ness' Yo-Yo and Olimar's Pikmin-based aerials, heavy-armor/super-armor/faux-super-armor, and perhaps other issues. This is why these discussions are harder than most give them credit for.

felix45 said:
lol, infinity is right.

no such thing as priority. game creators dont go through assigning attacks priority. they assign hitbox size, how long hitboxes last, whether you gain invincibility during attacks, etc. which is misread by people as "priority".

so yeah, listen to infinity, he's a smart player and knows what he is talking about. I remember trying to explain this to SCOTU. it was pretty hilarious actually how ignorant he was XD

Sigh, you are only proving your own ignorance. You're right that Brawl does not have magic "priority numbers" assigned to each attack. However, I hope the above discussion about the relative-damage-based interruption check should indicate that priority in a very real form does exist in Brawl.

I wanted very much to believe that I_Am_Infinity is completely right about the priority system, and I also thought that scotu was being both arrogant and wrong. But it turns out that scotu was generally refusing to make claims he couldn't back up, while I was categorically wrong and proven to be the n00b. He has studied this matter well and is no scrub. That being said, I think there are parts of the priority etc. system in Brawl that could still use clarification and testing. So let's stop antagonizing people for their different theories, and work on ironing out the details. I think I can provide good evidence for all of the claims I made above.

J0RDY · Aug 22, 2008

Hylian said:
I apologize for pointing out your mistakes, but I don't know why you would respond so maliciously. It's kind of upsetting to be ridiculed when trying to help someone.

The reason people do it Hylian, Is because you have so much knowledge of the game, your always correcting people, and thats what people have come to accept with your posts :S. I love it tbh, because it helps the community, and I laugh at the fact that sometimes you come across a little aggressive even when you don't mean to.

And I am ON YOUR SIDE HERE, don't take it wrongly.

I think the definition of priority is all these factors added up (hitbox size, duration, invicibility frames etc.), so it's a matter of opinion what has 'priority' or not.

Hylian · Aug 23, 2008

infzy said:
No, there's more going on here than you're talking about. Hitboxes can clash, hitboxes can be cancelled (for a particular opponent), and attacks can be interrupted.

Clash: When two hitboxes meet, and you see a little blue-grey "clash bubble" appear. I think this always means that a hitbox has been cancelled, but not necessarily both of them. That is, when two hitboxes hit, it might be that only one of them clashed, or they both might have clashed.

Hitbox cancel: When a hitbox has either been shielded, landed on an enemy, or been clashed against another hitbox. The enemy becomes impervious to the hitbox for the rest of its duration. That is, a single-hit attack will not harm you more than once. The hitbox may still hit others, though. And on a multi-hit attack, each hit is a fresh hitbox that needs to be cancelled.

Interruption: When your character stops performing an attack because of a clash. It seems that regular ground attacks will be interrupted by a clash if the enemy hitbox would cause within 10% damage of your hitbox.

Aerials are unique in that they do not clash, and so cannot be interrupted (by opposing hitboxes), but an aerial hitbox can be cancelled; for example, by your shield. (Note that the shield will show a "clash bubble", indicating that your shield has clashed against the attack, and taken the corresponding damage.)

I can give you examples you can try in training mode to easily demonstrate all three of these phenomena, and why that 10% magic number seems to be correct.

Please see my post [here] for a more in-depth description of these. Although, this is just my current theory, and I gladly await more evidence, exceptions, counter-examples, etc. But that thread states some important exceptions that I am not mentioning here, and that dr.mario guy also alluded to.

The perception of priority is based on hitbox/hurtbox sizes and range, relative damage of attacks leading to clashes and/or interruptions, the rapidity of hits in multi-hit attacks, the disjointedness of hitboxes from hurtboxes, unique properties of projectile-type attacks like Ness' Yo-Yo and Olimar's Pikmin-based aerials, heavy-armor/super-armor/faux-super-armor, and perhaps other issues. This is why these discussions are harder than most give them credit for.

Sigh, you are only proving your own ignorance. You're right that Brawl does not have magic "priority numbers" assigned to each attack. However, I hope the above discussion about the relative-damage-based interruption check should indicate that priority in a very real form does exist in Brawl.

I wanted very much to believe that I_Am_Infinity is completely right about the priority system, and I also thought that scotu was being both arrogant and wrong. But it turns out that scotu was generally refusing to make claims he couldn't back up, while I was categorically wrong and proven to be the n00b. He has studied this matter well and is no scrub. That being said, I think there are parts of the priority etc. system in Brawl that could still use clarification and testing. So let's stop antagonizing people for their different theories, and work on ironing out the details. I think I can provide good evidence for all of the claims I made above.

This is an amazing post

.

Everyone should read it. Twice.

DMG · Aug 23, 2008

I was trying to explain what infzy was saying, but he hit the nail on the head. Good job for explaining that really well.

Now on interruption and the 10% damage on a hitbox you were talking about, how does stale moves affect this? I'm interested in that and the differences for moves with sweetspots.

felix45 · Aug 23, 2008

infzy said:
However, I hope the above discussion about the relative-damage-based interruption check should indicate that priority in a very real form does exist in Brawl.

no such thing as damage based interruption. priority doesn't exist. pretty simple really.

Infinitysmash · Aug 24, 2008

infzy said:
The perception of priority is based on hitbox/hurtbox sizes and range, relative damage of attacks leading to clashes and/or interruptions, the rapidity of hits in multi-hit attacks, the disjointedness of hitboxes from hurtboxes, unique properties of projectile-type attacks like Ness' Yo-Yo and Olimar's Pikmin-based aerials, heavy-armor/super-armor/faux-super-armor, and perhaps other issues. This is why these discussions are harder than most give them credit for.

This is actually almost word for word what I was trying to say with my initial post, you just said it better. Good job

Also, you keep referring to faux-super-armor. Maybe you're talking about what I've been calling "grab armor" where you get hit but you still grab? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

I'm also officially pronouncing you to be the President of Canada.

infomon · Aug 24, 2008

felix45 said:
no such thing as damage based interruption. priority doesn't exist. pretty simple really.

Then provide some evidence. Maybe an alternative explanation for why and how clashes happen, or a counter-example to any of my statements.

Here, I'll give you a scenario, and please explain how you think it happens.

Stand two solo Ice Climbers (I'll call them both Popo's) face-to-face, in training mode on 1/4 speed. First, space them apart at such a distance that they can each do a Fsmash at the same time and the hammers would never touch. Then move them closer just a little, so that mid-swing, the two hammer hitboxes should intersect. You'll notice that a "clash bubble" will appear, and both Popos will immediately pull away their hammer; it will not come close to hitting the ground. Also you may notice the Popos will slide a little bit farther away from each other when this happens. All good so far? Good.

Now, move the Popos just a little bit closer together, still out of range so that neither Fsmash will hurt the other, if swung on its own. Now, try swinging an Fsmash with one Popo, and let the other one hit a single jab, timed so that the hammers will touch while their hitboxes are out. In 1/4 speed, it's not too hard; you let go of the Fsmash a little bit earlier than you hit the jab with the other IC. They're both out of range, so neither Popo should be getting hurt. As before, you'll see a little "clank bubble". But this time, notice that the Popo doing the Fsmash continued the full swing, slamming the hammer onto the ground; while the Popo doing the jab pulled his hammer back immediately when the clash happened, retreating the attack.

Finally, move the ICs just a bit closer together, so that the Fsmash is in range to barely hit the other IC, but a jab is still out of range. Perform the same exercise, where the Fsmash is to meet with the jab during the swing. If you do it correctly (so that the hammer hitboxes overlap before anyone's in range to be hurt), you'll see a clash bubble as before. And like last time, the Fsmash'ing Popo will finish his hammer swing, slamming the hammer on the ground, and this will damage the opponent IC, who did not finish their jab.

Please give me any explanation as to why and how this happens; that the Fsmash was treated differently than the jab in determining which IC would have the attack go into the "interrupted" state upon a clash. Or give me a reason why any of the above scenarios are not as I say they are.

Zinc Elemental · Aug 24, 2008

infzy said:
I recommend that this discussion of priority be taken to the Physics of Attacks thread (<-- link)
Actually I think the "super armor" and "invincibility frame" type stuff in Brawl might all be just a way the interactions of hitboxes and hurtboxes are designed.

Nah, SA and invincibility frames definitely exist. What you mention is what a lot of people confuse with priority, but SA and invincibility frames are a completely seperate matter.

infomon · Aug 24, 2008

I_Am_Infinity said:
Also, you keep referring to faux-super-armor. Maybe you're talking about what I've been calling "grab armor" where you get hit but you still grab? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

"Grab armor" is a much better name than faux-super-armor

But I've only skimmed through discussions about the "armors", so I wouldn't feel confident about this enough to say that faux-super-armor only exists in grabs; I don't exactly know what the term means. You should suggest that name in the threads that talk about FSA I guess

Zinc Elemental said:
Nah, SA and invincibility frames definitely exist. What you mention is what a lot of people confuse with priority, but SA and invincibility frames are a completely seperate matter.

Hmm, yes, what I meant is that "invincibility" could be just the absense of a hurtbox on the character. Actually I think that type of invincibility exists sometimes, but not everywhere that one talks about a character being invincible.

For example, I just tested and found some weird properties of Starman-type invincibility. When someone gets a Starman, any attacks against their hurtbox will cause a clash (ie. a clash bubble appears), although the offending attack will not be interrupted; they'll just swing right through. This is probably to the attacker's detriment, since an invincible enemy can more easily punish an uninterrupted attack. Also, the clash gives hitting-lag to the attacker, but no hitlag to the invincible defender!

This is the only time I've seen a hurtbox clash with a hitbox, though, but there might be others. Hurtboxes might have an "invulnerable" flag, which means they will cause offending hitboxes to clash. The clash here signifies that the attack was hitbox-cancelled; another point in the defender's favour! (<-- Canadian spelling

) So you cannot be hurt by a hitbox that struck you while you were invulnerable, even if you come out of invulnerability.

Also note that during this Starman-type invincibility (which I presume amounts entirely to this "hurtbox invulnerability", along with funky music and sparkles :laugh:

), your hitboxes have all the same properties. They will clash with enemy hitboxes, and the usual damage-based-priority comes into play; that's right, while invincible, your attacks can be hitbox-cancelled or even interrupted.

This invulnerability is entirely different than the usual "invincibility frames" people talk about, that they sometimes have during their attacks etc. (like the hope in Sonic's side-B). In those, it seems that their hurtbox simply doesn't exist for a few frames. Nothing can touch their hurtbox; although, they may have an active hitbox that can interact with the environment.

Super-armor, as far as I understand, is a vulnerable hurtbox that refuses to flinch; damage is received but the character's state, action, and momentum refuse to change. This may be a "flinchable" flag on every hurtbox. *shrug*

Also, thanks for all the feedback everyone!

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