Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

Introduction


Sonic the Hedgehog. Fast, cool and full of awesome.

The Smash Brothers Universe was very excited in having him join the ‘Brawl’. But alas, when making Sonic a playable character they didn’t exactly give him High Tier properties. Sonic mainers now have the challenge of mastering the blue blur, and this isn’t an easy task. That’s is where this thread comes in...
To be a sufficient Sonic in any and every situation you have to be able to adapt to any and every situation, against every character in the game. This thread was made to provide an easy to read, unified place where matchup discussion can occur in one thread, and an
unbiased approach to Sonic matchups can be attained. I am currently aware of the existence of other matchup threads in this board, but I feel that they are not updated regularly and do not provide as much room for open discussion on a character topic. I also hope this Matchup Discussion will be an easy to read succint, account for anyone to read when considering maining Sonic.

And it is important to realise that this thread is not only trying to help out Sonic's achieve their best, but also to develop Sonic game in general, to make him a greater character through analysis.
What to do?


Each week (or however long or short it may take), a character will be analysed in regards to its matchup against Sonic. Discussion is open to everybody who would like to contribute and is greatly appreciated. If debate occurs, then that’s great; different views are always needed for an accurate collection of data.
Once a conclusion is reached we will display whether Sonic is at an advantage or disadvantage or equal in this matchup on the front page and then links will be provided to the relevant discussion pages for that character. Hopefully this will provide easy access information to all who need it.
In discussing Sonics matchups, it’ll be important to provide clear reasoning and, if necessary, some evidence to back your claims. This is mainly for the accuracy of the thread, because there is no point of a matchup thread of the information it holds isn’t true.
The emphasis is on community discussion, as a way to organise the Sonic board a little better and to encourage new research into Sonics matchups.

The aim is to complete 1 character a week, but its understandable if it may take slightly longer.
And hopefully the biggest advantage will be all these discussion will be in one thread and be much more comprehensive and relevant.

Discussion Topics: (accredited to Jeepy Sol)


Character Behaviour- How does this character act against a Sonic, do they play defensive or try to counteract Sonics natural offense. How do they go about beating Sonic?

Commonly Used Moves- What moves are mostly likely to be in the 9 move queue. What do they spam and what do they need to survive?

How to Win- How can Sonic overcome this character, what aspects of Sonics game should be emphasising and what should he try to avoid?

Recommended Stages- What are the best stages for Sonic to play this character on? Simple!

Keep in mind, in your discussion whether your conclusion on the above topics give Sonic an advantage, disadvantage, big advantage, big disadvantage or nuetral!


I think that just about covers everything. I will be updating this as often as I can which will usually be everyday so yay! If you think anything should be added to this thread let me know and I will gladly chuck it in. It shouldn't be more than a few months until we have a completed Matchup Discussion thread on the world's fastest hedgehog that reflects the views of the entire community.
THANKS GUYS!

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Thanks to:
Jeepy Sol: For allowing me to follow his format from the Lucario boards. I really appreciate it and thanks for being a nice bloke about it.
<insert consistent contributors here>
Tenki (awesome contributor)
ROOOY! (another awesome contributor)
<insert whoever takes over this thread while I am gone here>
(...to be continued)
Kinzer- For motivating me to crack onto this again after being lazy lol.
Xiivi-For giving me the thread lol
Chis - For being sexy
All those who helped out - Thanks!

Check list of completed guides

Hmmmmmmmmm

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Hey, this looks like an awesome sticky in the making. ^_^. Uh, I agree with ROOOOY!. Could **** possibly count for Ike? Uh, nvm, talk later about that, lol.

Ike boards have it as neutral >_<
I wouldn't count it ****, but it's definately an advantage. He's got the Bowser syndrome vs Sonic as in if Ike goes aggressive, he will get *****.

Hey ROOOY!!
Yes the plan will hopefully to be have the discussion pages as a link...makes it much easier than scrolling through over 30 characters on the front page..
And the idea on the Legend sounds great, i'll do some editing as fast as i can.

EDIT: The new legend is up.

I predict seeing a lot of Reds and Blacks with absolutely no Green.

Teh Umby said:

I predict seeing a lot of Reds and Blacks with absolutely no Green.

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It doesn't really matter what colours they are, as long as the people contributing aren't biased in their decisions. But yes, there definitely won't be an even distribution of colours.
Are there any other queries or things that people think need changing before we get going?

That stretch between Marth and Game & Watch won't be fun to review. They're all like red/black >_<

Just checked out the characters you were referring to and: ouch.
Ok then. Lets get started.
Mario discussion can begin/already has.

MARIO - Character Matchup 1



Introduction
"Nintendo's ubiquitous mascot, the red-capped Mario has been hurtling over barrels and stomping Goombas since 1981, and his fighting style largely mimics those antics. As the most balanced fighter in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, like in Melee, Mario has no great strengths or weaknesses, but he does boast several useful aerial attacks, making an air game ideal for anyone using him."
It's a rivalry as old as they come. Nintendo vs Sega. Battle of the mascots. Alex the Kid couldn't handle Mario, which heralded the creation of the worlds fastest hedgehog. And as far as video games go, this is the first and so far, best chance of resolving the rivalry. Each player has their well-defined strengths and weaknesses in this matchup. Mario has a well established air game and priority advantage while Sonic has his speed, ground range and gimping. Both are quite adept on combos as well. It makes for a close fight. So let's get into it.


Behaviour:


-Mario will camp using his fireballs. He can full hop, short hop while approaching or backing off while grounded fireballs will be used to stop easy approaches. Fireballs are Marios way to control the game. They successfully slow up the match, and cause selective approaches with most characters. Though they don't have a fantastic range or damage, they are a great tool to rack up damage without any risk to Mario.

-Marios' air game is very well-developed in Brawl. Mario's N-air and B-air both have quite large priority and give Mario a big advantage in the air. Reverse aerial rushed B-airs will be used as an approach, keeping in mind that a Mario can pull out two B-airs in a short hop. Also, his f-air will be used as a spike as an off edge technique. Mario will do his best to pressure you at close range using SH nairs and advancing Bairs. Marios d-air wont be used as commonly, its priority is a lot less than Mario's other aerials. Mario's generally can afford to play aggressively in Brawl. He is a well balanced character and has enough priority to hold his own in attacking. This leads to comboing. Marios combo ability is pretty fantastic. He will use his jabs, tilts and throws as means to get into combo situations. His U-air is largely annoying and great at comboing in and out of. Their B-air can makes a semi wall of pain by short hopping it continually. Luckily Sonics spring can get us out of mario air comboing.

-This having been said, Marios ability to juggle in the air can do just as well as Sonics. And with his large priority, it really wins out.

-Mario ground game is not as strong as his aerial game. Much like Sonic, he will generally confine his smash attacks just as KO moves after racking up enough damage, with the exception of his D-smash, which comes out hard and fast, and is used in spot-dodge wars. His jab is average and can be pretty easily shield grabbed, similarly with his dash attack. Jab faking to d-smash can also work for Mario.

- Mario is a terrific gimper. The cape, F.L.U.D.D. and his F-air can all end a characters life at very low percentages. Fortunately Sonic isn't a character he can gimp easily, as will be outlined in How to Win.

- As for general gameplay, a Mario is very smart. They will play defensively (ie shield, back off) and shield grab into an bunch of aerial moves as soon as its possible. And as soon as play starts swinging against him, his cape can give him time to get out of sticky situations or simply jump out into another fireball spam session.

* There has been alot of discussion on whether the behaviour of Mario outplays Sonic or visa versa. Fireball usage and avoiding as well as ground games and aerial games of Mario against Sonic have also been discussed alot. For a Mario point of view feel free to check out this thread : HERE


Commonly Used Moves:

-Fireballs: Used commonly in a jumping approach. Clanks with our spindash/charge and gives Mario a little lag.
-Cape: Luckily there aren't too many useful applications of this move against Sonic, other than to avoid a hit.
-Up-B: Lots of priority on this move. One of the main reasons it is hard to gimp a Mario, not too many others uses against Sonic though.
-B-air: Marios love it. No one else does. Comes out really fast and has great priority and only a small lag on landing. Used alot in approaches and in combos. Avoid at all costs. Spacing is important here.
-F-smash: There's been alot of discussion on this move. So far, it does have more range then ours and has great KO'ing properties (knockback/damage). Again, avoid it at all costs and watch your spacing.
-U-smash: His other big ko move against Sonic. One of the many reasons we should stick to the ground in this matchup. Please don't fall into this.
-N-air: Just as useful as his b-air. High priority makes it difficult to avoid. Used in appraches commonly.
-U-air: Possibly the greatest aerial, capabale of mega-juggling in the air

How to Win:

"Avoid fireballs
Keep him grounded as much as possible. Utilt trades hits with his bair so it might encourage them to use it less.
Running Pshield aerials that come your way. Try if you can do shieldgrab to dthrow, it gets him in the position you want him to be (not above you)
Once he's on the ground, space with ftilts and dtilts, the former being most important because it has more range and does more damage.
Punish spotdodge or roll abusers with Dsmash, the same holds true in any match up though.
Keep either bair or fsmash nonstale for a kill at a reasonable percent.
Go for the dair gimp, it is possible, hell, even a footstooled Mario can't make it back to the edge if you do it even when he's just slightly below."
ROOOOY!

Keep it to the ground: mario aerial game is very very good. That u-air will slaughter. So try and keep it on the ground. Sonics tilts outrange and come out faster than anything mario can do effectively on the ground. So space your self and put little bits of damage on this way. If you get stuck in mario's aerials, spring out of their and spot dodge down (or if u feel confident, dair). Another alternative is to space yourself after recieving a hit and get him with the range on our b-air, but this is very situational

Gimping: at least try. There is a bit of dispute over how much sonic can gimp mario. But imo i think we are more than capable. Mario's recovery is extremely average and isn't hard to HA from either underneath or a jump out and HA to whack them off the side. From above can be risky because the odds are they will super jump punch before you can get a chance. Also if you can run off that edge after a d-throw its possible to gimp with a double fair. Its all about pickin the right gimp for the right situation. (dont go overboard and kill urself) P.S.: unfortunately these gimps can be very situational, but not at all impossible.

Other quick things: shake up your approaches. dash attack is fairly safe as it is grounded. spin shot or spindashhop depending on what kind of fireball pressure you got comin at ya. last thing to note is dont b scared to use aerials to catch them unaware. sonic is fast and has the possibility of throwing one out before mario even thinks about gettin his hi priority move out.

"Keep in mind that Mario's U-smash punishes too well, and you don't want to be in a spotdodge>d-smash war against Mario, so instead, if you end up spotdodging at the same time, jump out of the dodge or run away. If you want to attack, use tilts."
Tenki

HERE is a video of a Sonic gae vs Mario who shows the style that I am talking about. Unfortunately it's old, and the Mario isn't great, but if you had no idea what we were talking about, this shows appropriate tilts and fairly safe playing. Not great though. If you have any better vids of Mario vs Sonic, you would be a legend in my books.

Recommended Stages:

LUIGI'S MANSION: This one does favour Sonic. I soon as I started playin this matchup here I notice Mario's inability to hop and float around like he does so well. Give Sonic a higher chance of hit with SDR. Killing is the only, issue but it's like that on any level with Sonic. The building also provides covered for fireballs while you charge...taunt....whatever.

LYLAT CRUISE: It has a particularly high ceiling which counteracts Mario's U-smash and according to Matador does not really reduce the effectiveness of Sonic's U-air star Ko's. Fireballs aren't as good here because of the stage and Down-angled Fsmash offstage is harder to punish Sonic's upB when recovering low because the stage often tilts away from it. I've played Matador on this level and it really seems to either disadvantage Mario or give Sonic a massive hand. The Platforms seems to be at perfect height, the only thing to watch is make sure you don't let Mario under you, as you options can be limited.

FINAL DESTINATION: A completely nuetral level. Fireballs are easy to predict in this one. It has a relatively high ceiling and gives Sonic free reign to run around Mario a fair bit. Also the lip has potential to gimp Mario, so overall it's in our favour. Just watch Mario though, because he doesn't have any obstruction in his fireballs and you can't really come from underneath any platforms, so the priority issue is still a big one here.

NOT BATTLEFIELD: The amount of ease Mario has with aerials and fireballing is ridiculousing. Generally steer clear of this one.


Matchup Summary: 55:45 Mario

I can't see anything major one character has over the other, Mario vs Sonic, so I see it as pretty neutral. Like 55:45 in Mario's favour perhaps, but that's still in my mind considered neutral.
Fireballs and juggling with aerials along with edgeguarding are probably the three best things about Mario, and they're all useless against Sonic. Spindash goes through fireballs. Juggling with aerials fails because you can just drop a spring on his face. Mario can't edgeguard Sonic with any great success because of the multiple choices of recovery.
Both characters have quite a job killing each other IMO. Sonic can't gimp Mario as well as he can gimp other characters because of that cape, so don't follow him with aerial attacks. Though Mario below the stage at a high enough % + spring will usually = death. He might Super Jump Punch though and that thing as massive priority, so spring him before he can safetly use it without dying.
Be mindful that you can outrange his f-smash (which most Mario's resort to using against Sonic) can by outranged by a stutterstepped forward smash of your own. F-tilt outranges most of what he's got anyway.
Try and stay on the ground against Mario because his aerials > yours. They're high priority, and a few have got pretty good range and come out fast. If he approaches with a SH Dair/Nair, I just Pshield it and grab for a Dthrow. Here you can chase him and he's in the preferred position (not above you.)
I'd contribute more, but the only Mario mains I've played have been over wi-fi anyway. >_>

Posted again, so now that it's officially started you can say the discussion is from post 11 onwards.

As for stages, I like Final Destination, the lip often screws up Mario's recovery haha. That and it's flat and so you can best utilize your spin approaches. A stage I like to avoid is Battlefield, it works to Mario's advantage more than it does yours. It encourages aerial combat more which Mario is better at.
As for counterpick stages, go for stages with lower ceilings. You're more adept at vertical kills than Mario is.

Move-wise, he'll most likely spam fireballs. They can (but probably won't) hinder your approach, so they're likely to camp with them. As for approaching, they'll most likely do that from the air. Fair sucks for approach, so they'll look to an advancing Bair, Nair (because of it's priority) and Dair for it. Bair is hard to deal with if used well. They can kinda float in reversed, Bair, and move away again. Usually, I shield the Bair and go for a dash attack when they land. It's probably not the best option but then my decision making is awful :3.

How to win - Always keep one of the trinity of kill moves (Dsmash, Fsmash and Bair) fresh, because unless it's a spring gimp you'll be hard pressed to gimp him with aerials, his fair being a spike and his cape reversing your aerials. Generally stay on the ground but don't be afraid to approach him, defense is something Mario isn't that great at.

I've just made a thread in the Mario Character Specific Board to see their opinions on the matter.

-I agree mostly with what ROOOY!!! has said. It is often a given that a Mario will use their cape if you are close enough for a smash, or smash you right back (as theirs is faster). In cases such as these, stepped timing is important. What I mean by this is if you land infront of Sonic in any given situation he may cape just inacse the smash is coming... but if you stop the urge to jam your c-stick straight away and wait half a second longer, you can punish that cape. ANother thing is spacing. If the circumstance you arrive it will have you within smash but you know u've been getting punished just space yourself just out of range instead. Then get his % up with a dash attack or spin dash hop.
These are some pretty general tips that just came off the top of my head. I got work at 5am so i gotta go but I will probably edit this post with the Mario Board findings and more useful info as soon as i can.
-i completely agree that when you start hitting and running, the fireball approach will most likely come out. which can be annoying for approaching because as we've already established his aerial game is better, and this can force a Sonic into an aerial approach if your not careful.
- really watchout for that bair! i've had a few mario matchups since i started playing and the thing that also threw me off guard and annoyed me was the priority and speed on that move. be very carefully approaching from an angle like that, coz marios know its lightning fast and really useful.
-when u make a hit, make it count, if all u can do to add exta damage after a string is a spring hit, then do it... u need to get that % up in any way u can
-try not to dair too much because their dsmash comes out too fast and if u miss, u'll get punished
-your jab will be pretty useful in getting the damage up on mario (keeps the fight on the ground, 3 hits etc etc)
He hasnt got the greatest grab range or attack range, so using long range moves like your ftilt will come in handy, as well as a surprise dsmash on the odd occassion. i agree that dthrow probly places mario in the best position also.

MARIO BOARD DISCUSSION: There has been a fair bit of discussion in regards to priority, smashes and gimping in the thread that was made in the mario boards.
So here's the link: Mario Board Discussion
But incase you don't feel like reading, or clicking that one link here is what has been arising out of it.

-marios are fully aware of sonics combos and recovery options
-marios also know they we do not have gr8 ko potential (common knowledge tho)
-sonics usmash will beat out marios annoying dair
-fireballs stop, but dont damage sonics sc/sd, but the hop will go thru them
-a mario will generally play aggressively against a sonic (will move around alot, making it harder for sonic to put in place effective combos)
-mario smashes generally outrange ours... so tilts shud b used to outrange and rack up damage
-aerial combos will become harder because of mario priority on his aerials
-spacing becomes increasingly important and so will the possibility of spinshotting past fireballs or using other avoidance techniques (preferaby staying out of the air

from this it looks like sonic will have to play defensive in this matchup, using mostly his hi priority moves and tilts (for the range). approaching will also have to be done carefully, to avoid any bairs.
unfortunately its lookin more and more in marios favour, but we'll see as i test out some stuff tonight.
l8as

I like all the imput people have made thus far :3
[/SARCASM]

Mario Board Summary : Some believe it's neutral, while others believe it's advantage Mario.

The general consensus for those who think its Mario's advantage :

Kanzaki said:

Fireballs > Sonic. That is all :]

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But I'll elaborate on that. Camping with fireballs forces Sonic to approach, and to do so is quite difficult. Approaching from the ground probably isn't your best bet. Although the hop of Spindash goes through fireballs the rest does not, so you're not going to be making a lot of progress towards him. Spincharge is useless too. After clanking with the first fireball you'll get bombarded by the rest.
Which only feasibly leaves spinshot. Mario can control you in the air too thanks to fullhopped fireballs, and generally has good anti air tools, namely his u-tilt, nair and bair. Landing so you're not in range of the aerials yet close enough to scare Mario out of fireball spamming is the best you can hope for.

It's because Mario has control in the match forcing you to approach that I'm guessing people feel Mario has the advantage. While it's obviously a plus, I don't feel it's enough of an advantage to merit advantage Mario, I'd most probably stick to neutral. I'm not sure about anyone else reading this thread though. Again I iterate that I can't see what one character has over the other, but if people agreed to Mario advantage, I'd accept it.

My view on the fireballs isn't as bad as all the Marios make it out to be. They are slow moving, arced projectiles... and the give mario a bit of lag as well. i always found it entriely possible to run underneath a jumping fireballing approaching mario. And from underneath there are alot of options. And as mario is the same weight as Sonic, it isn't hard to get an unexpected star ko from an uair at close to high percentages.
I would like to focus on some advantages I think Sonic has as well:

1. Grab game: Both of the characters have fairly short grab range, but Sonic speed can help him put his to better use. Dthrow into other approaches at low percentages works well most of the time on a Mario IMO.
2. Recovery: Sonics recovery is a lot better than Marios, not much to elaborate on that point. In situations where a Mario will die, a Sonic can easily make it back. The angle on Marios recovery can also ruin him in levels with a lip. Other than this, it does not cover that much distance, but does generally stop a gimp.
3. Speed: This is a given. Duh, its Sonic. But i'll say it anyway. Sonics speed allows him to manuevre around the map easier and gives Mario less and less time to think and can slow down the game if we need it to.
4. Variety: Things like Spindash/charge combos (to HA/ fair/ uair/ d-jump spring dair) can really throw mario off (not much elaboration i'm sorry)

These are only little things that take back a bit of ground in this matchup for Sonic

Also for recommended stages i suggest Luigi's mansion will give Sonic an advantage: it'll remove that fantastic aerial game of that italian and helps us survive more and more punishment where we can use the dthrow to get him out of the house at hi percents.

will come edit this soon: doing some testing on marios priority

P.S. Here is a match fairly supportive of a nuetral conclusion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH2qF95XaMY

Greenstreet said:

My view on the fireballs isn't as bad as all the Marios make it out to be. They are slow moving, arced projectiles... and the give mario a bit of lag as well. i always found it entriely possible to run underneath a jumping fireballing approaching mario. And from underneath there are alot of options. And as mario is the same weight as Sonic, it isn't hard to get an unexpected star ko from an uair at close to high percentages.
I would like to focus on some advantages I think Sonic has as well:

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The thing about Fireballs is that they come out quickly. If Mario sees Sonic approaching, he almost always has time to throw out a Fireball to screw up what Sonic was originally doing.

Also, Mario is better at spotdodge wars than Sonic. Mainly because his D-smash comes out so much faster than Sonic's, and does more damage. Also, his D-air is very good for punishing dodges.

A2ZOMG said:

The thing about Fireballs is that they come out quickly. If Mario sees Sonic approaching, he almost always has time to throw out a Fireball to screw up what Sonic was originally doing.

Also, Mario is better at spotdodge wars than Sonic. Mainly because his D-smash comes out so much faster than Sonic's, and does more damage. Also, his D-air is very good for punishing dodges.

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And how long do you expect a Sonic to sit there and take a fireball every time he approaches mario?
And i dont really agree with the spot dodge statement. Whats stopping a Sonic using his dsmash while ur spot dodging, which will hit u with its last turn (the one b4 the animation)... its not a matter if which comes out first, because sonics lasts longer and has gr8er range, which makes it useful in spot dodge wars. plus sonic tends to back off in said wars and approach back in.
i still think its nuetral, the fireballs arent a huge problem for a sonic approach. Sonic is fast enuff to run at mario, see the fireball and super roll past him or with the same button spindash whichll go right thru the balls in the initial hop

Greenstreet said:

And how long do you expect a Sonic to sit there and take a fireball every time he approaches mario?

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Fireballs stop Sonic in his tracks. They force him to stop running and jump. Sonic's DI has a horrid acceleration rate too. Yeah sure, the fireballs don't have to hit you, but basically Mario limits Sonic's punish options pretty noticeably by simply throwing out fireballs. All of SOnic's best punish options are on the ground, which he can't stay on forever because Fireballs just stop him in his tracks.

As for stages, Mario prefers battlefield. While this helps Sonic avoid Fireballs to a minor degree, this also helps Mario set up his juggling, Which Sonic does not like.

FD would be a good stage for Sonic except for the fact there is nothing between you and Fireballs.

I'm taking a bit of a stab here, but I think Lylat Cruise could be pretty good for Sonic if he's trying to counterpick against Mario. The swaying of the ship can hinder fireball setups. Also, it can mess up Mario's recovery a bit. The platform in the middle of the stage IMO is helpful.

IMO Castle Siege is good for Sonic too. First phase, there isn't much space for Mario to camp. Second phase, statues block fireball camping. Third phase, the stage sways.

yer good level picks.

my only issue with your post is that 1 of the best sonic approaches is the Aerial Spin Charge. And if you are fireballing along the ground hoping to stop sonic, then he may well learn to just jump up and asc u for 18%...

the fact that there is a very back and forth approach to this debate shouts out nuetral to me. For every advantage we say sonic has, mario can cancel with something else, and visa versa.
Castle siege is great. One phase is long like FD, the other has slopes which works well for sonic and like u said, the other stops almost all fireball game.

ROOOOY! said:

Ike boards have it as neutral >_<
I wouldn't count it ****, but it's definately an advantage. He's got the Bowser syndrome vs Sonic as in if Ike goes aggressive, he will get *****.

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Most Ike players haven't met Sonic mains. The ones who haven't believe that Ike is at a major advantage over Sonic, but the ones who have, who try to push positively, believe it's neutral.

At the best (for Ike), it's neutral.

Greenstreet said:

-i completely agree that when you start hitting and running, the fireball approach will most likely come out. which can be annoying for approaching because as we've already established his aerial game is better, and this can force a Sonic into an aerial approach if your not careful.
- really watchout for that bair! i've had a few mario matchups since i started playing and the thing that also threw me off guard and annoyed me was the priority and speed on that move. be very carefully approaching from an angle like that, coz marios know its lightning fast and really useful.


-sonics usmash will beat out marios annoying dair
-fireballs stop, but dont damage sonics sc/sd, but the hop will go thru them
-a mario will generally play aggressively against a sonic (will move around alot, making it harder for sonic to put in place effective combos)
-mario smashes generally outrange ours... so tilts shud b used to outrange and rack up damage
-aerial combos will become harder because of mario priority on his aerials
-spacing becomes increasingly important and so will the possibility of spinshotting past fireballs or using other avoidance techniques (preferaby staying out of the air

from this it looks like sonic will have to play defensive in this matchup, using mostly his hi priority moves and tilts (for the range). approaching will also have to be done carefully, to

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I noticed that in Mario/Luigi matchup discussions, we tend to think that slow projectiles are bad. However, this adds a bit of versatility to the approach, since it creates an independent attack aura that they can run behind, to force a shield (set up for grab), stop a counterattack with a clang, etc.

Anyway, homing attack punishes predicted fireballs. `.`; don't forget you have that move. Keep in mind its blindspot so you don't miss and get punished with a B-air lol.

Speaking of -airs, N-air.

Mario's N-air can stop many approaches, similar to Luigi. It's basically lagless, has enough priority to stop alot of Sonic moves, etc. The only thing that keeps it from being such **** is that it doesn't have alot of knockback (not a Luigi-style KO move). I personally find N-air more troublesome than D-air. D-air at least has landing lag if done incorrectly.

Also, aerial juggles are harder to do on Mario. In true (brawl) combos, your opponent can't really do anything except airdodge and DI.

------------------

I'm not sure why, but I tend to get damaged out of my SD/SC/ASC by fireballs at times. Anyway, F-air destroys fireballs.

So anyway, your friend against aerial approaches, B-airs, etc:
Running P-shield.

..have fun with that.

`.`; It's eiher neutral or Mario's advantage, really.

If anyone's interested, the Mario I played against is BigB

Tenki said:

Most Ike players haven't met Sonic mains. The ones who haven't believe that Ike is at a major advantage over Sonic, but the ones who have, who try to push positively, believe it's neutral.

At the best (for Ike), it's neutral.

`.`; It's eiher neutral or Mario's advantage, really.

If anyone's interested, the Mario I played against is BigB

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Lol @ Ike part. Not at your opinion, I mean the 'big advantage over Sonic' part I just can't see what Ike has over Sonic at all other than killing earlier/more range. Even the killing parts gone if you can gimp him at stupid percents.
But it's not the time for that.
I agree with Tenki that's it's neutral or advantage Mario, simply because Mario controls the game with Fireballs and can force you into uncomfortable positions. It's fairly neutral though IMO, both kinda cancel each others strengths out.

fire balls are only scary if you choose to fear them.

R4ZE said:

fire balls are only scary if you choose to fear them.

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Yups, it's what comes after the fireballs that are scary. Punishment... >.<

I belive mario to be an even match with sonic it just depends on the players skill..

Wow what is wrong with you *points to sticky*.

Naw I'm just messing around, but I think we can work something out. I'm still updating the stickied thread as it is so I guess it can co-exist or even merge into the stickied thread. Instead of hosting different character topics a week, why don't it get discussed here for now on. Greenstreet, the character topics should have took a big load off your back, so why don't we do the rest of the characters instead of repeating the characters my topics did already.

P.S. Where's that Olimar write-up Umby ?

Hey BlueTerrorist,
I was reluctant in making this thread for that very reason. But yeah, we don't have to repeat entirely the ones you have already completed. We can just import the data and throw it on the table. It'll save so much time when we get to those characters. I do think its a waste of time repeating characters. I just saw this format in the Lucario Boards and found it really simple and easy to read, drawing advice from loads of sources as well.
Tell me what you think?
Also is the general consensus that it is about 55:45 Mario? Pretty Nuetralish?

I am still unconvinced that it's Mario advantage. Also I tested out stuff with marios bair.

It will trade hits with our utilt with decent knockback.

Also recommended Recommended stages:

-Final Destination
-Luigi's Mansion
-Castle Siege
-Possibly Lylat

-And i also think that delfino works really well for sonic. Jumping from underneath with aerials plays really well and there are alot of platforms for those fireballs to bounce off, as well 2 of the landing zones are nice and long and stretched out, giving Sonic room to run. Not certain on it tho, but was versing wifi marios yesterday and it went pretty well

I'm in agreement with that.

Tenki said:

Anyway, homing attack punishes predicted fireballs. `.`; don't forget you have that move. Keep in mind its blindspot so you don't miss and get punished with a B-air lol.

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Fireballs? Not really unless Mario is fullhopping them. Whiffed aerial attacks maybe.

Speaking of -airs, N-air.

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I am going to make a point here that Mario's N-air has just as good priority as Luigi's. Both N-airs easily outprioritize Olimar's U-smash.

A2ZOMG said:

Fireballs? Not really unless Mario is fullhopping them. Whiffed aerial attacks maybe.

I am going to make a point here that Mario's N-air has just as good priority as Luigi's. Both N-airs easily outprioritize Olimar's U-smash.

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Nah, more like a grounded Mario either landing from a fireball (in fireball stance), or done on the ground (though I'm not sure what the point of grounded fireball is). I'm not sure if you caught it, but I said (and if not, meant) "predicted" fireballs. It works the same way with any projectile-spamming character vs Sonic- if he starts Homing Attack before/at the same time as the projectile character begins to shoot, it keeps the character as a sitting duck for HA disruption.

But honestly, I'd just gauge out my opponent's rhythm with a jump or spring, and only occasionally use HA.

@N-air comment: it does have priority similar to Luigi's, however, Olimar is not a good example, since hitting a pikmin's "hurtbox"(?) with almost any attack will render them useless for damage. Heck, Sonic's D-air outprioritizes Olimar's U-smash from time to time.

Mario's N-air can stop many approaches, similar to Luigi. It's basically lagless, has enough priority to stop alot of Sonic moves, etc. The only thing that keeps it from being such **** is that it doesn't have alot of knockback (not a Luigi-style KO move).

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Tenki has already stated the nairs usefulness and priority so yeah..in agreeance here

And Mario isn't ALWAYS going to SH his fireballs i guess. and if he does then the spin shot is a more appropriate approach, putting sonic in an ideal position (depending on his starting point)

And if he fireballs the ground (or from anywhere for that matter) there is always the spindash hop to get through them or a roll or super roll through (provided he doesnt predict a punishment for it)

+there is also the option of getting out of range, give the Sonic time to think

Tenki said:

Nah, more like a grounded Mario either landing from a fireball (in fireball stance), or done on the ground (though I'm not sure what the point of grounded fireball is). I'm not sure if you caught it, but I said (and if not, meant) "predicted" fireballs. It works the same way with any projectile-spamming character vs Sonic- if he starts Homing Attack before/at the same time as the projectile character begins to shoot, it keeps the character as a sitting duck for HA disruption.

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SH fireballs do autocancel, so Mario can put up a shield immediately from a SH Fireball.

Personally me, I don't see Sonic landing a hit by starting a homing attack BEFORE Mario shoots a Fireball. But that's just my take of what a player can react to. =/

Greenstreet, you should probably mention Nair in those commonly used moves too, that plucks you out the sky from an aerial approach.
I'll write a bit of the behavior bit. Feel free to change/disregard if it's stupid (it most probably will be, I'm tired)

Mario will camp you using his fireballs. This forces you to approach, because you have no projectiles of your own to spam back, and no anti-projectile items like a reflector. Thanks to Sonic speed, getting in his face won't take you a long time. The problem is getting to him on the ground, because Sonic doesn't have the moves to go through projectile spam, and eating them one at a time will be hard work. Sonic has good horizontal airspeed, helped more by a spinshot, so this would seem the most appropriate way of approaching. However, Mario has anti air tools and an overall better airgame, so will try and knock you out of the sky with and u-tilt or a SH nair.
Once you have beaten the projectile spam, and are on the ground with him, Mario will act aggressively. His ground game does not match up to Sonic's, so will use aerials instead. Mario will do his best to pressure you at close range using SH nairs and advancing Bairs.
A Mario will UpB out of shield in this match-up, and with it's massive priority and pretty hgh damage/knockback it's something to look out for.
Mario cannot gimp Sonic in this match-up, so will have to look to the more gritty side of killing. It will be most probably be done with a stutterstepped Fsmash, as Dsmash doesn't have great killing power and Usmash has little range to the side of him, he will only use this if you are in range in the air.

I dunno if this is the kinda thing you want, if I'm going into too much/too little detail or whatever.

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No roooy!! That is really great. It sums it up really nice. I'll probably paraphrase it if thats ok, coz some parts are behaviour and som are how to win

EDIT: Put in initial behaviour info. Pretty simple atm, not very long. WIll be updated though.

Hmm, maybe talk about him trying to juggle you with aerials? The sensible thing to do is spring away, and if that knocks him onto the path for an lag cancelled dair do it. You'll be on the ground, while he'll be above you in slight hitstun, where you can go and attack him with aerials, or if you're too slow, wait for him to attack you with an aerial where upon you powershield it and then should Dthrow.

And yeah break it up, I don't mind how it's used really.

I think that generally behaviour is almost downpat, as most of Mario's tendencies have been included, although I am going to look at his board for his combos etc.
So now it's a case of how can Sonic win in this matchup?
What are his best moves and techniques, what mindgames should he be trying to get to work etc etc.
Roy has already got some info in his post above.

How to win :

Avoid fireballs
Keep him grounded as much as possible. Utilt trades hits with his bair so it might encourage them to use it less.
Running Pshield aerials that come your way. Try if you can do shieldgrab to dthrow, it gets him in the position you want him to be (not above you)
Once he's on the ground, space with ftilts and dtilts, the former being most important because it has more range and does more damage.
Tend to avoid ASC combos. Mario's will Nair you out of them. It's really back to basics with this fight, emphasis being on spacing.
SD/SC -> Mario spotdodges while you VSDJ -> you land on him when his spotdodge ends and nair him for 11%. I dunno, I'm not good with mindgames ;_;
Don't let him combo you in the air, spring out, or airdodge.
Punish spotdodge or roll abusers with Dsmash, the same holds true in any match up though.
Keep either bair or fsmash nonstale for a kill at a reasonable percent.
Go for the dair gimp, it is possible, hell, even a footstooled Mario can't make it back to the edge if you do it even when he's just slightly below.

Sorry it's not in a useful format. It's just general points to take note of.

I am just about ready to call this one nuetral pending any further arguments, I say this because despite what the Mario mainers seem to be saying, I think that Sonics gimping abilities in this matchup are being understated. Mario has a very limited recovery and although his super jump punch has major priority, its not going to get used until in the range of the ledge. Having said this following a Mario out and HA'ing will be effective because his defense to this is that recovery move, but if he has to DI in before using it, he'll get hit by the HA or use his recovery (resulting in a mario falling to his doom).
I'm not sure if i am being clear but it seems that as soon as Mario gets past a certain point where he has to di before recovering, he is very gimpable.

Also out nair trades hits with their Uair

Why do you have colors other than red and black on your chart?

1: Do not feed the troll
2: Homing attack from directly below mario while he is recovering
3: Sonic completely outranges mario on the ground (on every single ground based move) and mario has nothing that will beat a sonic bair or uair.

that is all