Browny
Smash Hater
bowser dair does like, no damage and has a ton of landing lag, even if he hits you, you wont get sent far away and you can punish the land with a usmash or something :/
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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
It's the DownB you have to watch for. That and airdodge to uair which kills RIDICULOUSLY low....
DownB on the ground hurts too. Although it's more common for Yoshi's to do it.
Don't forget that you should NEVER try to attack a ledgegrabbing Bowser while you're recovering. Bair is a *****.
DownB on the ground hurts too. Although it's more common for Yoshi's to do it.
Don't forget that you should NEVER try to attack a ledgegrabbing Bowser while you're recovering. Bair is a *****.
B!squick
Smash Master
MrEh is the Pat Robertson of Bowser only with less crazy... actually he's nothing like Pat Robertson... wait what was I talking about... Oh yeah, MrEh, make sure you listen to the Hawaiian as he will reply to all questions and comments with a degree of accuracy and cerntainty that is unrivialed. And his sig awesome.
Also, Bowser lives in his shield and wails with his big, clawed turtle hands when appropriate. But Sonic is fast. Period. Both characters are in their element here. Some key things you want to do is get him in the air and... don't get grabbed.
And avoid Norfair at all costs. I'm not sure how well Sonic does there, but that is Bowser's stage. A good counter pick would be Jungle Japes because that river just eats him up.
Also, Bowser lives in his shield and wails with his big, clawed turtle hands when appropriate. But Sonic is fast. Period. Both characters are in their element here. Some key things you want to do is get him in the air and... don't get grabbed.
And avoid Norfair at all costs. I'm not sure how well Sonic does there, but that is Bowser's stage. A good counter pick would be Jungle Japes because that river just eats him up.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
lol i think theres a percentage where sonic can down throw bowser right in to teh side platforms on japes, which will stage spike him into the water lawl.
but i think after playing sliq that the match is very close and that sonic forces bowser to be even more offensive than normal
but i think after playing sliq that the match is very close and that sonic forces bowser to be even more offensive than normal
MrEh
Smash Hero
Dair sucks...
...and this is why. There are uses for the Dair, but nothing worth noting in this matchup.
Norfair and Battlefield are definately stages to ban against Bowser. I love those stages.
And yes, Japes destroys Bowser unless the Bowser is really crazy.
Jiggs can do that with her throws as well. ^^
Oh, you played Sliq? How did that go?
Kinzer
Mammy
You should get some sleep Mr. Eh, it's 2-5 in the morning.
BTW I'm not really going to be talking unless I see something I think is outright crazy or even a tiny fact that might not be true... I has no Bowser matchup experience except for the couple of cases where I got ***** on Lag-Fi when the FFer was still up, and they we're doing it for fun/I had no idea what I was doing back then.
BTW I'm not really going to be talking unless I see something I think is outright crazy or even a tiny fact that might not be true... I has no Bowser matchup experience except for the couple of cases where I got ***** on Lag-Fi when the FFer was still up, and they we're doing it for fun/I had no idea what I was doing back then.
MrEh
Smash Hero
I think I will. It's pretty late.
As a closing statement for today, I'm not sure about the matchup ratio. I think it could be as high as 55-45 in an character's favor. So yeah, pretty even I guess. I can't imagine it being any higher though.
Bowser or Sonic having a noticeable advantage in any matchup is laughable. ^^
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Lol, who said offensive Bowser gets *****? WTF kind of Bowser are you playing, Bowser's are always defensive. If Bowser has an answer to everyone of MK's approaches, he sure as **** has them against Sonic.
-Sonic has to rely hugely on fake out approaches in this match because Bowser's jab and F Tilt will beat out near all grounded approaches, U Tilt will beat all aerial approaches (this isn't Sonic specific though lol). I know running shield is a favourite of you guys', but if the Bowser predicts and gets a grab then...
Air release
Grab release chaingrab
Grab release dash attack
Grab release fair
Ground release
Grab release regrab
Grab release overb
Grab release downb
Grab release ftilt
Grab release jab
OUCH!
- Sonic's difficulty killing when playing against the heaviest character in the game means Bowser is going to live A LONG time, a lot longer then you will. Gimping is pretty out the question too thanks to Fortress' lovable b0rked priority and invincibility frames. Instant edgehog is probably your only effective option to force us to land on the stage and you can punish our landing lag with something ledge hopped.
- Sonic can't pressure Bowser's shield safely, Fortress OOS will ****.
- Please don't hang on to old concepts. I don't know where people get that D Smash ****, but we never use the **** thing. What a good Bowser will do is live inside his shield and **** OOS, tilt like crazy, grab whenever there's a punish opportunity and live forever.
I'm going to be controversial and say 60:40 Bowser.
-Sonic has to rely hugely on fake out approaches in this match because Bowser's jab and F Tilt will beat out near all grounded approaches, U Tilt will beat all aerial approaches (this isn't Sonic specific though lol). I know running shield is a favourite of you guys', but if the Bowser predicts and gets a grab then...
Air release
Grab release chaingrab
Grab release dash attack
Grab release fair
Ground release
Grab release regrab
Grab release overb
Grab release downb
Grab release ftilt
Grab release jab
OUCH!
- Sonic's difficulty killing when playing against the heaviest character in the game means Bowser is going to live A LONG time, a lot longer then you will. Gimping is pretty out the question too thanks to Fortress' lovable b0rked priority and invincibility frames. Instant edgehog is probably your only effective option to force us to land on the stage and you can punish our landing lag with something ledge hopped.
- Sonic can't pressure Bowser's shield safely, Fortress OOS will ****.
- Please don't hang on to old concepts. I don't know where people get that D Smash ****, but we never use the **** thing. What a good Bowser will do is live inside his shield and **** OOS, tilt like crazy, grab whenever there's a punish opportunity and live forever.
I'm going to be controversial and say 60:40 Bowser.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
Last I played Bowser he messed with spacings with jabs, fire and Klaw hopping and punishing misspaced approaches. This living in a shield thing is new to me. I request vids of notable Bowsers please.
Chis
Finally a legend
Okay, this thread is nearly completed. Once it's done, I think the focus should be fixed on updating the OP, getting a more effective chart and write ups. And recaps, but write ups are a lot more important.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Bowser players are soooo hard to come by, even harder is to find video's of a decent one. I'll see if there's a semi-recent one from Vex lying around and I'll edit this post with it. The concept behind it however is that Bowser's shield is one of the best in the game and that Bowser has a) extreme punishment from it from a laggy attack with the grab
b) Possibly the best OOS option in the game in Fortress.
Rickerdy-doo-da-day
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 4,861
- NNID
- RicardoAvocado
I think I can actually help on this one as my friend uses Bowser. And he plays a pretty good one too
Anyone who thinks Sonic has a massive advantage in this match up has been eating far too much fake steak. I'd even go as far to say that Bowser might have the advantage in this match (very slight though)
Bowser has very good range. His Jab/F Tilt/D Tilt have very good range along with his Up Tilt which is a good anti aerial move. Approaching a defensive Bowser is difficult since his fire can stop Sonic's close up approaches (of course, this is really easy to get around) and his tilts outrange most of what Sonic can do
His specials are horrible. As mentioned, his fire can stop your approaches. Koopa Klaw is a ***** of a move. It works like a grab and Bowser can SH it to a lagless land ---> ground follow up. If you get caught in this, fight back if you can by using the control stick. When he lands on his belly, use DI correctly! Look at your damage % and DI accordingly. Diagonally upwards is usually best. His Up + B (reffered to as Fortress I think) is beastly. It can be used OoS and is an excellent 'Run away! Coming through!' move. You probably won't see his Down + B used much but it's incredibly strong so watch out for it. It also can grab onto the ledge. If you see Bowser do this, run in for a ledge hug! Don't try to attack him because you might get hit
Another nasty thing Bowser has is his grab releases. If you get grabbed, Bowser can release you and attack you with all kinds of things. The only way to avoid them is if Bowser screws up (or if you don't get grabbed). Once you've been released, provided Bowser doesn't mess up, you're going to get hit with something. Try your best to DI whatever Bowser hit's you with
Bowser is however reasonably slow. He's also a big target. Fair is great from what I've found and Up Smash is pretty nice too. Gimping Bowser is also a plus since once he's forced to recover, he's very limited in what he can do that won't make him plummet to his death
Out thinking and pressurising Bowser into doing something slow will help you win. I'd say this match up is somewhat even
Anyone who thinks Sonic has a massive advantage in this match up has been eating far too much fake steak. I'd even go as far to say that Bowser might have the advantage in this match (very slight though)
Bowser has very good range. His Jab/F Tilt/D Tilt have very good range along with his Up Tilt which is a good anti aerial move. Approaching a defensive Bowser is difficult since his fire can stop Sonic's close up approaches (of course, this is really easy to get around) and his tilts outrange most of what Sonic can do
His specials are horrible. As mentioned, his fire can stop your approaches. Koopa Klaw is a ***** of a move. It works like a grab and Bowser can SH it to a lagless land ---> ground follow up. If you get caught in this, fight back if you can by using the control stick. When he lands on his belly, use DI correctly! Look at your damage % and DI accordingly. Diagonally upwards is usually best. His Up + B (reffered to as Fortress I think) is beastly. It can be used OoS and is an excellent 'Run away! Coming through!' move. You probably won't see his Down + B used much but it's incredibly strong so watch out for it. It also can grab onto the ledge. If you see Bowser do this, run in for a ledge hug! Don't try to attack him because you might get hit
Another nasty thing Bowser has is his grab releases. If you get grabbed, Bowser can release you and attack you with all kinds of things. The only way to avoid them is if Bowser screws up (or if you don't get grabbed). Once you've been released, provided Bowser doesn't mess up, you're going to get hit with something. Try your best to DI whatever Bowser hit's you with
Bowser is however reasonably slow. He's also a big target. Fair is great from what I've found and Up Smash is pretty nice too. Gimping Bowser is also a plus since once he's forced to recover, he's very limited in what he can do that won't make him plummet to his death
Out thinking and pressurising Bowser into doing something slow will help you win. I'd say this match up is somewhat even
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
how does sliq stack up in the rankings of bowser players because if you say anything higher than 4 (personally I think hes the best going right now) than I cant consent to bowser having the advantage in this matchup. When I played him, we went very even. I will admit that he didnt get the full use out of his GRs but sonic is hard to grab anyway so its a bad idea to rely on that. because of bowsers weight and size, I say that sonic can **** bowser off of a grab just as hard as it would be the other way around.
more later.
more later.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
The thing with the grab releases is that its rather hard to grab Sonic period. I don't think they will factor into the matchup much because of how difficult Sonic is to grab.
MalcolmM
Smash Lord
last few tournaments sliq has gone wolf from what ive seen. just saying.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Funny thing about that,
He started going wolf in tourneys RIGHT after he came to rochester and got like 7th.
the tourney in my region that i had him come to was the last time I saw him go all bowser in tournament.
just sayin
He started going wolf in tourneys RIGHT after he came to rochester and got like 7th.
the tourney in my region that i had him come to was the last time I saw him go all bowser in tournament.
just sayin
MalcolmM
Smash Lord
lol. more rochester ****.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
the best MFs you aint never heard of son.
real talk.
also, fortress is really stupid, is there any way to easily gimp bowser? like can we down air through the weaker frames of fortress or something, or do we just have to put him in a postion where he has to either get hit or get us away with a move that wont allow him to recover....
real talk.
also, fortress is really stupid, is there any way to easily gimp bowser? like can we down air through the weaker frames of fortress or something, or do we just have to put him in a postion where he has to either get hit or get us away with a move that wont allow him to recover....
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
I go Wolf because *******s think its fun to double blind me and threaten me with D3.
B!squick
Smash Master
Lol, if you're not careful we can always use Klaw to get back on the stage, too. Not sure if it has enough priority to actually work well and using Klaw to recover isn't going to be the first thing on my mind, but it would be fun to try to do.
MattyP
Smash Apprentice
I'd like to just say that I admire the Sonic community in their match-up thread.
Most character match-up threads are "we have equal/better odds in every match-up."
Sonics keep it real.
Most character match-up threads are "we have equal/better odds in every match-up."
Sonics keep it real.
MalcolmM
Smash Lord
sliq doesnt d3 do good against wolf as well?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
that was my next question lol
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
I'm afraid Sliq has no choice to be top 3 because the only other competitive Bowser mains are KishSquared and Vex Kasrani lol. Sadly underused the Koopa is.
Bowser's shouldn't rely on it, they just take it when the opportunity arises. Erm I think you're exaggerating, granted Sonic can maybe get two U Throws on an inexperienced air dodge spammer or some kind of D Throw techchase, but read Bowser's guaranteed list of **** in comparison.
Grabs still happen, Sonic's not Wario.
Kinzer
Mammy
Lol. I don't blame you though.
It's not like we have a choice anyway, all the other character boards like to think they have some kind of advantage against Sonic.
95% of time, the majority of them are right, but at least it's fun to flame the idiots that come in here and think they have an advantage just because he's Sonic. It's also fun to convince people why they're wrong when a lot of them ain't know **** about Sonic except "he has no priority" and all that jazz.
I like to think a lot of our matchups are at least 5-10 points better than they look in my perspective, and even more in Sonic's favor in practice. Probably you could even say some of these matchup ratios are still wrong because they were done a long time ago.
Also Chis, funny thing is you're managing a lot of the matchup write-ups, Shiek/C.Falcon for example... you got some work to do unless you'r willing to let me/Greenstreet (lol?) PM you with a write-up for you to just Copy & Paste.
Once we're done with everything though, before we update the few write-ups we do have complete, the main focus has to be getting the ones that haven't been done up.
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
Very true.
Sonic may be one of the harder characters to grab but he is nowhere near impossible (he's not even CLOSE as hard to grab as wario).
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Bowser King
Kinzer
Mammy
Sure grabs will happen... doesn't mean it's as easy as say it is for D3 to grab teh Boozer.
Poor guy is so fat and slow, and yet has a flawed mechanic working against him.
Poor guy is so fat and slow, and yet has a flawed mechanic working against him.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
I won't bother spilling all knowledge I have about the 2 characters I play, I frankly don't care enough about it.
Bowser has up-B, Sonic won't get grabbed, blah blah blah.
Bowser can't pressure, Sonic has ASC, blah blah blah
Bowser can has long live, Sonic can has speed, blah blah blah
Bowser can has fire, Sonic can has Spinshot/ASC over it, blah blah blah.
Fire shouldn't be used anyway, you'll eat Spinshot B-airs and Cat Combos like it's raining men.
Actually, Sonic will get grabbed if you use stupid moves like laggy F-airs and dash attacks and cancels right in front of Bowser.
I'll do the write-up if anyone cares.
EDIT: Fine, my hands are tied, here's a secret
DO NOT SPRING. You'll get U-smashed so badly. BTW, I like U-smash in this matchup. Also when you have a handicapped Sonic, running around nonstop, use D-smash, however stupid it may be. Also, Fortress is a good move. Hit withing them, retreat Fortress. Watch out though, you can be shielded and dash grabbed.
Bowser has up-B, Sonic won't get grabbed, blah blah blah.
Bowser can't pressure, Sonic has ASC, blah blah blah
Bowser can has long live, Sonic can has speed, blah blah blah
Bowser can has fire, Sonic can has Spinshot/ASC over it, blah blah blah.
Fire shouldn't be used anyway, you'll eat Spinshot B-airs and Cat Combos like it's raining men.
Actually, Sonic will get grabbed if you use stupid moves like laggy F-airs and dash attacks and cancels right in front of Bowser.
I'll do the write-up if anyone cares.
EDIT: Fine, my hands are tied, here's a secret
DO NOT SPRING. You'll get U-smashed so badly. BTW, I like U-smash in this matchup. Also when you have a handicapped Sonic, running around nonstop, use D-smash, however stupid it may be. Also, Fortress is a good move. Hit withing them, retreat Fortress. Watch out though, you can be shielded and dash grabbed.
Trillion
Smash Ace
I think my guide has some significant insights that should be added here.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
*Sigh* Hyprocrisy fail. You ***** and moan about Sonic's common misconceptions and then do the exact same to a different character.
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
QFT (that's twice now >_> <_<)
Bowser is nowhere near as slow as the other heavyweights. Also, bowser doesn't really need the speed (only really handy against projectile spammers, which sonic isn't and even then there's other way's around it).
Also, If some of you are having trouble seeing how bowser's play, here is a video thread.
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Bowser King
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Don't mind Kinzer, he's never played as/against a good Bowser.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I dislike it when people make these responses.
Where did I say that a grab wouldn't happen?
I said that the grabs wouldn't happen much. Meaning you'll sometimes get a grab off, but its very unlikely simply because of sonic's gameplay.
it is just like Wario, yeah when you get a grab its great and all, but it doesn't happen often enough to really make much of a difference in the matchup.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
SL you said that grabs dont happen enough to factor it into the matchup ratio, which is incorrect, and that facilitated B speed's responce.
fact of the matter is that if his grab leads to a guaranteed kill move, its just as much a part of the matchup discussion as ness's back throw
point is bowser is going to play suuuuuuper campy in this matchup,
if hes in the air, all of his airials have absolutely horrible landing lag, but what sliq did against me was interesting, if he thought i would attack his landing spot, he would land with a side b which has very little lag, and allowed to flow seamlessly into his ground attacks.
also to the person bagging on kinzer.
all he said was that bowser is fat. which is fact
that he gets screwed by a stupid game mechanic. also fact
and that he is slow. which is fact as well.
you may say that hes not as slow as some of the other heavies, but the fact still remains that compared to all the other characters in the game, (including the likes of MK, Fox, squirtle, CF and sonic) bowser is still slower than most.
and to the person that was debating me about grabs.
You underestimate sonics throws, Ive taken bowsers from 0-60+ from one grab, but i do see your point and I was also underestimating bowsers grab game, my bad on that one. Sonics is good but a grab from sonic never leads into a 100% guaranteed kill until 190%+ bowsers grab game is definitely better, but sonics is nothing to scoff at either
fact of the matter is that if his grab leads to a guaranteed kill move, its just as much a part of the matchup discussion as ness's back throw
point is bowser is going to play suuuuuuper campy in this matchup,
if hes in the air, all of his airials have absolutely horrible landing lag, but what sliq did against me was interesting, if he thought i would attack his landing spot, he would land with a side b which has very little lag, and allowed to flow seamlessly into his ground attacks.
also to the person bagging on kinzer.
all he said was that bowser is fat. which is fact
that he gets screwed by a stupid game mechanic. also fact
and that he is slow. which is fact as well.
you may say that hes not as slow as some of the other heavies, but the fact still remains that compared to all the other characters in the game, (including the likes of MK, Fox, squirtle, CF and sonic) bowser is still slower than most.
and to the person that was debating me about grabs.
You underestimate sonics throws, Ive taken bowsers from 0-60+ from one grab, but i do see your point and I was also underestimating bowsers grab game, my bad on that one. Sonics is good but a grab from sonic never leads into a 100% guaranteed kill until 190%+ bowsers grab game is definitely better, but sonics is nothing to scoff at either
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
The fact remains that sonic has terrible priority and kill power compared to the likes of Bowser.
See what I did there?
Your using a misconception that most bowser player's KNOW and try to get around. It's also a very poor misconception.
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Bowser King
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
but i would never debate you on that notion, ya know?
bowser can kill sonic at like 60. f tilt out ranges and out prioritises a lot that sonic does...
so in relation to the cast sonic does have awful kill moves and below average priority.
but sonic has ways to get around his shortcomings, which im 98% sure bowser has as well.
but just because we have ways to minimize our weaknesses doesnt mean that they arent there, ya dig?
bowser can kill sonic at like 60. f tilt out ranges and out prioritises a lot that sonic does...
so in relation to the cast sonic does have awful kill moves and below average priority.
but sonic has ways to get around his shortcomings, which im 98% sure bowser has as well.
but just because we have ways to minimize our weaknesses doesnt mean that they arent there, ya dig?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Get some reading glasses kid.
They would factor into the matchup, but they would be a MINOR factor.
I cannot see as to how anyone could misunderstand my statement.
Correct it becomes a MINOR issue, just as it is a MINOR factor when Marth deals with ness, just as Bowser's grab **** on MK is a MINOR factor in the matchup.
So it doesn't factor MUCH because it is MINOR.
Yeah its great that Bowser can kill off a grab release, its great ness can kill of a Bthrow, yet the instances of how often it happens is small.
I should not have to make a response on the subject TWICE. -_-:
I am curious as to how Bowser would be killing off Sonic at 60% =\
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
Yeah, I get where your coming from
Still, most bowser's aren't really the running type and we don't really need it a lot when playing defensive (which we do) and when we do run it's still pretty good and is decent enough when needed. We aren't ganon
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Bowser King
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
1. This is why I shouldnt have to share my tier spot with you. My shoulders are weak from carrying you so much.
2. i pretty sure all of bowsers smashes could kill sonic at 60. they might have to be charged but whatever.
theres also his up air and down b which can both kill stupid early if you hit them high enough in the air.
and note that that post said that bowser CAN kill sonic at 60. Not that he WILL kill sonic at 60
Trillion
Smash Ace
If Bowser players "know and try to get around" it, then it's not a misconception.The fact remains that sonic has terrible priority and kill power compared to the likes of Bowser.
See what I did there?
Your using a misconception that most bowser player's KNOW and try to get around. It's also a very poor misconception.
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I haven't checked it, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bowser's forward smash can kill sonic at 60% when he hits with both hitboxes (unless that isn't in brawl anymore).