Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

*cough*Boxob*cough*

No. I've only ever gotten a sig violation in General Discussion. and my old one was bigger.

I see. Alright then, I guess all we can do is just make a few more posts but without overcrossing into the next page, and then we're set for Mr. G&W

Also I have the 1,000th post in this thread. All your Steak are belong to me.

If you have your SWF browser set to default, this is the 12th post, probably just stop at #14 to make sure.

So far, it's all been sonics debating... God, at least get Umby in here if your gonna do a sonic-character match up without the other character's players. >_<

Camalange said:

No. Your ratio is off, I believe you mean 55-45 Sonic's favor (45+50=/=100). It's more likely in Luigi's favor because his aerials shut down a lot of Sonic's approaches, but you're somewhat right on the fact that Luigi's recovery is predictable, but his super jump has pretty decent vertical coverage, and the tornado makes up for it. Read some things others have said too.

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Yeah but Sonic will be there to mess up his recovery using HA or Dair-f.

Tenki said:

That's bad reasoning. His Tornado, if used correctly, can cover the height of Sonic's spring.

also, convention:
numbers add up to 100.
45+50=95
f a i l

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Yeah but I was thinking using Sonic F-dair, HA cancel, or the spindash cancel.
________________________________________
I know I got the ratio wrong it was a typo my bad.

I've been thinking about this match-up a lot recently. It's one of the main ones why I went into looking for another main to counter Luigi. I don't know about any of you guys, but Luigi is a constant problem. I can trounce just about any player-character combination on my side of the state of Michigan with Sonic. But Luigi... I don't know. You just can't fight his air game. There is almost nothing you can do to him except spam predictable bairs and the surprise dair when he's on the ground. Fighting Luigi forces a ground game which, while Sonic is pretty strong there, it still is lack luster against an aerial approach.

I've narrowed the defining characteristics of the battle. Luigi has an amazing fair and a gruesome nair in his advantage against Sonic. They come out strong, fast, and hard. A Luigi with an ounce of reaction time can rip Sonic's air game apart. Not to mention a fine grab game with some of the stronger throws in the game. What Sonic, has, however, is his Spin shot, his speed, and his ftilt. When fighting Luigi's, I find that spamming an ftilt will not only cancel a fireball(if he wants to use it), but it has nice range, and if you angle it upward, you can surprise an approaching Luigi with your slightly extended range and angle. Another good attack when in a close-quarter scenario, especially when you've exhausted the strength of your ftilt, is the dtilt. When he's standing next to you, it's a nice thing to push him away and give yourself some space.

Sonic's pure speed helps tremendously, and his Spinshot allows for some good mindgames when deployed off the ground. Charge up the DownB, and you've got some control over the situation. You either break towards him with it, or tap your C-stick towards him to fly over him, maybe get off a nair, or if you're feeling lucky, a fair or a passing bair. You can also just jump straight up, which may cause Luigi to make a reaction you can take advantage of. Race toward him to pick off an easy Dash attack, or go in for some quick jabs and an ftilt. Both good approaches, but the rolling attack is a bit more predicable.

Also, something you may want to consider using is changing up a ASC with a mid-air Spinshot, even if the ASC seems worth it. Luigi's air game can come out at any second, you may not want to be around when his chop comes out. Get above him and punish him with a quick dair or bair.

I think that's all I have to say on the issue. I'm not savvy with to much in the priority department, but I know Sonic's sucks and Luigi's air game is pretty strong.

SuperTH said:

I've been thinking about this match-up a lot recently. It's one of the main ones why I went into looking for another main to counter Luigi. I don't know about any of you guys, but Luigi is a constant problem. I can trounce just about any player-character combination on my side of the state of Michigan with Sonic. But Luigi... I don't know. You just can't fight his air game. There is almost nothing you can do to him except spam predictable bairs and the surprise dair when he's on the ground. Fighting Luigi forces a ground game which, while Sonic is pretty strong there, it still is lack luster against an aerial approach.

I've narrowed the defining characteristics of the battle. Luigi has an amazing fair and a gruesome nair in his advantage against Sonic. They come out strong, fast, and hard. A Luigi with an ounce of reaction time can rip Sonic's air game apart. Not to mention a fine grab game with some of the stronger throws in the game. What Sonic, has, however, is his Spin shot, his speed, and his ftilt. When fighting Luigi's, I find that spamming an ftilt will not only cancel a fireball(if he wants to use it), but it has nice range, and if you angle it upward, you can surprise an approaching Luigi with your slightly extended range and angle. Another good attack when in a close-quarter scenario, especially when you've exhausted the strength of your ftilt, is the dtilt. When he's standing next to you, it's a nice thing to push him away and give yourself some space.

Sonic's pure speed helps tremendously, and his Spinshot allows for some good mindgames when deployed off the ground. Charge up the DownB, and you've got some control over the situation. You either break towards him with it, or tap your C-stick towards him to fly over him, maybe get off a nair, or if you're feeling lucky, a fair or a passing bair. You can also just jump straight up, which may cause Luigi to make a reaction you can take advantage of. Race toward him to pick off an easy Dash attack, or go in for some quick jabs and an ftilt. Both good approaches, but the rolling attack is a bit more predicable.

Also, something you may want to consider using is changing up a ASC with a mid-air Spinshot, even if the ASC seems worth it. Luigi's air game can come out at any second, you may not want to be around when his chop comes out. Get above him and punish him with a quick dair or bair.

I think that's all I have to say on the issue. I'm not savvy with to much in the priority department, but I know Sonic's sucks and Luigi's air game is pretty strong.

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Usually, disjointed aerial games are problematic. Luigi's aerials have low range, so it's easier to grab him out of them.

What mindgames, or specifically, what do you bait and punish with a spinshot?

Because mindgaming someone is usually synonymous with baiting a certain reaction and punishing it.

SonicX580 said:

Yeah but Sonic will be there to mess up his recovery using HA or Dair-f.
Yeah but I was thinking using Sonic F-dair, HA cancel, or the spindash cancel.

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waaaait-
spindash cancels don't do damage.

Dair-f
Down air.. forward?

F-dair?
forward - down air?

Tenki said:

waaaait-
spindash cancels don't do damage.

Dair-f
Down air.. forward?

F-dair?
forward - down air?

Click to expand...

Lololol I was wonderng the same thing XD

Perhaps new Sonic aerials? lulzies

Tenki said:

Usually, disjointed aerial games are problematic. Luigi's aerials have low range, so it's easier to grab him out of them.

What mindgames, or specifically, what do you bait and punish with a spinshot?

Because mindgaming someone is usually synonymous with baiting a certain reaction and punishing it.

Click to expand...

I didn't think of grabbing him. My grab game is... less then stellar. I've been working on it for the last few days. Shield grabbing is not yet reactionary.

The mindgames I speak of is that humans generally react to sound, and the spindash sound plays just as he moves. A Luigi player may jump into the air, unsuspecting that you've already got him in the air for a solid Nair, or like I said, a passing bair. I prefer to try the bair because of it's range over Luigi, the only aerial attack Sonic has that beats Luigi's range, otherwise I normally just double jump over Luigi.

And I usually see Luigi's aerial approach or Fireball when Sonic is charging his Down B. Granted, these aren't tournament level players I'm going against, but they aren't idiots.

And about aerials, even though Luigi's range is low, I was under the impression Sonic's were as well, and they were beaten out by Luigi's sans the bair, which you can't always use. Am I wrong in this?

SuperTH said:

1 I didn't think of grabbing him. My grab game is... less then stellar. I've been working on it for the last few days. Shield grabbing is not yet reactionary.

2 The mindgames I speak of is that humans generally react to sound, and the spindash sound plays just as he moves. A Luigi player may jump into the air, unsuspecting that you've already got him in the air for a solid Nair, or like I said, a passing bair. I prefer to try the bair because of it's range over Luigi, the only aerial attack Sonic has that beats Luigi's range, otherwise I normally just double jump over Luigi.

3 And I usually see Luigi's aerial approach or Fireball when Sonic is charging his Down B. Granted, these aren't tournament level players I'm going against, but they aren't idiots.

4 And about aerials, even though Luigi's range is low, I was under the impression Sonic's were as well, and they were beaten out by Luigi's sans the bair, which you can't always use. Am I wrong in this?

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1 - I was a happy Sonic main the day I realized powershieldgrabbing Luigi's aerials made them alot easier to deal with.

2 - o_O..? I still don't see how doing a spindash jump somehow keeps a Luigi from just reacting to your approach with an N-air or something :l

Oh yeah, I also just re-read your post and realized you're not doing a spinshot. Because a grounded down-B doesn't do a spinshot.

Tenki said:

3 - What is Spinshot? spin shot
Spinshot is an AT that lets Sonic jump through the air at running speed! In essence, it is an instant double jump, and it's done by almost immediately inputting [Jump] or [Attack] as soon as you release side-B or down-B in the air. Side-B starts with a hop, so you're sent in the air regardless of where you are, but if you're trying to do it from down-B, you have to be in the air first.

"Regular input", GC controller:

[Hold side-B]> [Release B and quickly hit A or jump]​

*I prefer sliding from B to A.

Easy shortcuts:
- ASC spinshot (GC controller, default settings):

(air) [Down]+[B, B, B...] > [C-stick Left/Right]​

- Side-B spinshot (Wiimote+Nunchuck, B for special, A for Attack):

[Side+B]>[hit A while holding B]​

Video, for those having trouble understanding what a Spinshot looks like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XPazo3otHo

For more information, details, and discussion on these moves, please read this thread:
Side-B and Down-B Mechanics: EXPLAINED! + moar

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3- Fireball as a jumping approach, I rarely see that. Fireball as a defense to stop down-B, I see that. Side-B charge > shield cancel is far more useful for baiting and punishing an approaching fireball/aerial with something like a grab.

4- partly - Sonic's U-air is disjointed as well. I can't test at the moment, but I think it might either outrange altogether or at the least, trade hits with Luigi's aerials.

Tenki said:

1 - I was a happy Sonic main the day I realized powershieldgrabbing Luigi's aerials made them alot easier to deal with.

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Looks like I'm going to have to redouble my efforts in effectively using my sheild.

2 - o_O..? I still don't see how doing a spindash jump somehow keeps a Luigi from just reacting to your approach with an N-air or something :l

Oh yeah, I also just re-read your post and realized you're not doing a spinshot. Because a grounded down-B doesn't do a spinshot.

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Okay, yeah, it's a grounded something-or-other then sends me through the air exactly like a spinshot which I've been calling a spinshot... my bad. It's real name is...? And I mean exactly like a spinshot, I'm not just jumping while spinning here(Even though that's kinda whats happening...).

3- Fireball as a jumping approach, I rarely see that. Fireball as a defense to stop down-B, I see that. Side-B charge > shield cancel is far more useful for baiting and punishing an approaching fireball/aerial with something like a grab.

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I have got to be more clear on these things. I'm sorta running my words, I think. I meant Fireball or aerial approach. Not both in one. Also, good plan. Never even thought of using the Side-B to shield cancel, as basic as it is. Just goes to show how much you can learn if you just get some good dialogue going.

4- partly - Sonic's U-air is disjointed as well. I can't test at the moment, but I think it might either out range altogether or at the least, trade hits with Luigi's aerials.

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Yes, I recall Sonic's U-air is disjointed slightly. I never see that used for horizontal approach, though.

Tenki said:

Usually, disjointed aerial games are problematic. Luigi's aerials have low range, so it's easier to grab him out of them.

What mindgames, or specifically, what do you bait and punish with a spinshot?

Because mindgaming someone is usually synonymous with baiting a certain reaction and punishing it.



waaaait-
spindash cancels don't do damage.

Dair-f
Down air.. forward?

F-dair?
forward - down air?

Click to expand...

Actually you can use the spin dash cancel you just got use the attack where Sonic spins forward (f-dair) or the attack where Sonic uses a back kick (b- dair).

SonicX580 said:

Actually you can use the spin dash cancel you just got use the attack where Sonic spins forward (f-dair) or the attack where Sonic uses a back kick (b- dair).

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dair = d-air = down-aerial
fair = f-air = forward-aerial
bair = b-air = back-aerial

u = up
n = neutral

Spindash cancel = starting a side-B and hitting shield before it finishes charging

alternatively, it sometimes refers to ASC cancels (holding shield as an ASC lands on the floor)

you should ask about these more in the rFAQ...

SuperTH said:

Okay, yeah, it's a grounded something-or-other then sends me through the air exactly like a spinshot which I've been calling a spinshot... my bad. It's real name is...? And I mean exactly like a spinshot, I'm not just jumping while spinning here(Even though that's kinda whats happening...).


I have got to be more clear on these things. I'm sorta running my words, I think. I meant Fireball or aerial approach. Not both in one. Also, good plan. Never even thought of using the Side-B to shield cancel, as basic as it is. Just goes to show how much you can learn if you just get some good dialogue going.


Yes, I recall Sonic's U-air is disjointed slightly. I never see that used for horizontal approach, though.

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- If it has an attack aura, that's a spindash jump (we call it an SDJ).

- Ay, side-B bait > shield cancel grab. It's a somewhat common tactic that... well, maybe it's not so common, but I use it alot. Continue this discussion in the rFAQ thread since we're starting to go off topic.

-U-air is slightly disjointed diagonally above Sonic as well, for the first hit, but it's most noticeable above the second hit.

Tenki said:

- If it has an attack aura, that's a spindash jump (we call it an SDJ).

- Ay, side-B bait > shield cancel grab. It's a somewhat common tactic that... well, maybe it's not so common, but I use it alot. Continue this discussion in the rFAQ thread since we're starting to go off topic.

-U-air is slightly disjointed diagonally above Sonic as well, for the first hit, but it's most noticeable above the second hit.

Click to expand...

So with that said, let's return to Luigi, now that I understand how to deal with his aerials a little better then before(Thanks for telling me about the SDJ, I missed that acronym somewhere). Now my next big question - what do do with approaching a high-level Luigi? He's not just gonna stand there... do you bait him so you can play defense, like I hear Sonic should be played, or do you change things up and go on the offensive?

SuperTH said:

So with that said, let's return to Luigi, now that I understand how to deal with his aerials a little better then before(Thanks for telling me about the SDJ, I missed that acronym somewhere). Now my next big question - what do do with approaching a high-level Luigi? He's not just gonna stand there... do you bait him so you can play defense, like I hear Sonic should be played, or do you change things up and go on the offensive?

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Well from my expeirence the a good defense is a good offense but you need to confuse Luigi and then strike or you could dash grab and mess up his recovery after Luigi is thrown off the stage Tenki or anybody else do you agree?

SuperTH said:

Now my next big question - what do do with approaching a high-level Luigi? He's not just gonna stand there... do you bait him so you can play defense, like I hear Sonic should be played, or do you change things up and go on the offensive?

Click to expand...

Depends. My approaches tend to be in-your-face-camping with feints, so if I'm against a more defensive (dodge/shieldy) player, then I'll play the approach game and assume that they'll spotdodge/airdodge the majority of the time, then punish accordingly. Spotdodges and such are common to every character, so that's more of a player-based thing than anything. Otherwise, I tend to try to punish landing lag or falling aerials. B-air has noticeable landing lag, and the others, save for D-air maybe, have little shield push, so you can counteract that with a running shield.

I guess you could say I'm more 'defensive' in this matchup, since I play it more reactive than anything. Grabs are godsends, since it keeps you in control and avoiding the whole priority issue.

SonicX580 said:

Well from my expeirence the a good defense is a good offense but you need to confuse Luigi and then strike or you could dash grab and mess up his recovery after Luigi is thrown off the stage Tenki or anybody else do you agree?

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Off-stage, unless the Luigi has bad DI (specifically downward DI), he won't be dying from ANY of your aerials unless you have like, an un-stale B-air at a high %, so if you hit him, take the chance to get free damage / predictable movement for a while with things like B-airs. and stuff.

Tenki said:

Depends. My approaches tend to be in-your-face-camping with feints, so if I'm against a more defensive (dodge/shieldy) player, then I'll play the approach game and assume that they'll spotdodge/airdodge the majority of the time, then punish accordingly. Spotdodges and such are common to every character, so that's more of a player-based thing than anything. Otherwise, I tend to try to punish landing lag or falling aerials. B-air has noticeable landing lag, and the others, save for D-air maybe, have little shield push, so you can counteract that with a running shield.

I guess you could say I'm more 'defensive' in this matchup, since I play it more reactive than anything. Grabs are godsends, since it keeps you in control and avoiding the whole priority issue.



Off-stage, unless the Luigi has bad DI (specifically downward DI), he won't be dying from ANY of your aerials unless you have like, an un-stale B-air at a high %, sort if you hit him, take the chance to get free damage / predictable movement for a while with things like B-airs. and stuff.

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Actually I send opponents off the stage with high damage.

Okay? So you kill them off-stage or punish their ledge reactions.

It's not matchup-specific.

Tenki said:

Okay? So you kill them off-stage or punish their ledge reactions.

It's not matchup-specific.

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Well those are on of my methods I'am unpredictable with my KO methods.

Is it that you are sometimes unpredictable, or that you only have a few optinos to work with as is?

Edit: Please don't reply to this...or anybody else make a new post until Greenstreet gets here...

hey guys wats goin on? ready for some 1 new?

MR GAME AND WATCH



Introduction: Definitely the least dimensional character you will see in this fighting game. Puns aside or otherwise, Mr. Game & Watch is just as much of a fighter as the S/A tiers in the 3.0 version, and for a very good reason. Agreed upon by anybody you'll come across to be one of if not Sonic's most difficult opponent he'll ever come across.

Behaviour: His character his shallow and so is his playstyle; You'll be clashing it out with a wall of junk, from turtles to flags and all that stuff. Normally bad players would be punished for this kind of gameplay but the problem is that it reaches so far and sticks out for a deceivingly long time that it's hard if not impossible to get around some of it. Bad players will have an easy time getting around, and pros alike will be a nuisance to get around with.

Commonly Used Moves: You'll be seeing a lot of Mr. G&W (some a bit more suggestive than others if you have the "right" mind for it), it's best you inform yourself now that if you ever see this matchup yourself you'll be somewhat prepared. Nothing can get you as far as practice though, but for now let this be something to look out for.

Back Air - The Turtle - Probably the most used aerial you'll see throughout the whole match, this thing has above average range, lasts for a long time, somehow how a shockwave hitbox, racks up damage nicely, and can be very annoying to work around.

Neutral Air - The Fishbowl - His best self-defense aerial, this thing covers his entire hurtbox save for his underbelly, has a decent enough array of range, is quick, and racks up damage neatly as well.

Down Air - The Keyblade - Is Mr. Game & Watch above you? In that case, expect a lot of this raining down on you. Being able to weave left and right with it and cover his 6 o'clock, fast but not really compared to some other things he has, and decent range, it will be hard- however possible, to avoid and/or counterattack it, you would just not rather have to deal with it at all.

Up Air - The Blowhorn is it? - This thing can reach FAR, as in you're not even anywhere near close to being above him and it will still work. The good thing is that at that range, it doesn't do anything other than harmlessly keep you in the air for a bit longer than you would think or like, the bad side is that being propelled into the air can not only be annoying when you want to get back on the ground, but it also refreshes Mr. Game & Watch's other moves and if you're really inattentive, he will hit you with some kind of powerful attack on your landing when you were being reckless trying to get back to the ground ASAP.

Forward Air - The Box... brick... what exactly is it anyway? - The least problematic/seen aerial in his arsenal of crap. This thing packs some nice knockback, and has a hitbox that sticks out for a little bit... that's about it, it's lacking in every other field you can imagine.

Forward Smash - The Match - To start off, this attack has a lot of power on the first hitbox, after that comes a weaker but still just as gruesome 2nd hitbox, has some ending lag (still have to be quick about this) and even less spotable start-up.

Down Smash - The Hammers - Much like his forward smash, this attack has about the same start-up lag, less ending lag, covers both of his sides, and if you aren't killed off the top by the sweetspot, the sourspot will still send you flying off to the side.

Up Smash - The Scuba-Helmet - Mr. Game & Watch's most power attack by far, but also his riskiest, just try not to be near the head and you shouldn't need to unnecessarily die. Easier said than done though.

Neutral A - Gas (The PG way to say it anyway...) - Clocking at 4 frames (1 frame = 1/60th of a second FYI), his fastest attack, but probably his most pathetic attack. Only reason for any G&W player to use this attack is to reset you to neutral position out of an unteched Down-Throw, get you in a hold for a little bit, and refresh his other moves. If you're ever caught in a neutral position with him proceed to do your own Jab combo as he has nothing to match yours which is 3 frames other than getting you in hitstun/lag/read.

Forward Tilt - The Chair - Nothing really special, just a surprise kill move at later percents if you weren't already killed before. If it doesn't kill you, it has alright knockback.

Down Tilt - The Sewer Lid - This stinks, this move is fast, spammable, and you'll find it to be another brickwall that you'll have to find some way to work around. This also works as an edgeguard.

Up Tilt - The "1" Flag - Nothing really impressive about this attack either, this is just here so that G&W's don't have to hit you with up smash, and has less ending lag than his chair.

Neutral Special - Chef - This attack will rarely be seen or used outside edgeguarding, the projectiles can be avoided, and the hitbox the Pan has can easily be outmatches with any of your ranged ground attacks.

Down Special - Bucket - This special would be used to capture certain projectiles against certain characters and use them against them, however since the only projectile Sonic has is his Spring and that can't be Bucketed, you would think this thing is no use against Sonic, right? Wrong, If you hit G&W out of the stage and think he would die under normal circumstances, he can just use this thing to stop ALL MOMENTUM. This allows him to live longer than the programmers of this game probably intended, because without this Mr. Game & Watch is the third lightest character in this game, surpassing only Jigglypuff and Squirtle.

Side Special - Judgment - You won't see this often if ever, varying from player to player, reason being is because for Mr. Game & Watch to use this, is like taking a risk. This move can either allow the greatest (and most random/lucky while you're at it) comeback in the history of whatever, or it can reassure his demise. Judgments differ from 1s to 9s, with the 1 being a backfiring Judgment, and the 9s being OHKOs (One-Hit K.O.s), number inbetween differ in power and use. Most noticeably 8s will freeze you, sevens would drop items if you're playing with items on but in a standard tourney ruleset is almost no better than him getting a 1. I forget what the other numbers do, but rest assured it's nothing to really worry about it. Outside the variable results, this attack has a lot of ending lag.

Up Special - Fireman - Apparently the firemen also have 2nd/3rd/4th jobs/shifts, because recovering isn't it's only use, but it just happens to be what it's good for mainly. After the move is executed, Mr. Game & Watch pulls out a parachute to slow his fall, and he can still act and do anything he normally could do except another Fireman attack until he lands or gets attacked on the way down. The trampoline also has some wind properties much like his U-Air, and if you weren't hit by the windbox, you were either not hit by it at all or you got hit by the part that hurts you, knocks you somewhere relatively close to G&W, and if that didn't happen then Game & Watch just has another follow-up/mix-up/"OH @#$%" panic button. Mr. Game & Watch also happens to become his own attack after he jumps, so it's really hard to attack him during, you'll have to rely on hitting him before and/or after he's done this move.

Throws - There's nothing really special to mention about any of his throws excluding his Down Throw, which you should be prepared to avoid. The best way not to get caught up in this mess is to not get grabbed, unfortunately chances are you will eventually get grabbed and chances are The opponent will throw you down. There's no way to tell which way he threw because the animation for all of Mr. Game & Watches throws is the same, the only variable is where it goes, and his Down Throw will put you right next to him in a prat-fall. Mr. Game & Watch can act immediately after his animation finished, and depending on what you (can) do and how you react (and I guess what he tried to predict), a couple of things can happen. Assuming you don't tech and do anything you will be vulnerable to any of his attacks (though don't discard this as useless, you will want as many options as you can from this point on), assuming you don't tech but have a reaction action and time, you can roll forward and back, or you can do a get-up attack (or even normally get up, this is faster than any of the others but the safety can still fluctuate). Mr. Game & Watch can still try and predict you correctly and punish you for any of these actions, however it's up to you to make sure you don't pick the wrong course of action and punish him for messing up. Now assuming you do tech, you will be granted much more time to react and defend yourself, but you're not out of the woods yet. You can tech in place, back, or forward, usually doing this will allow you a bigger reward for the same/bigger risk, but again sometimes one option might not be the best, it's still in your hands to make the right decision and react accordingly.

How to Win: With this whole shopping list of stuff, how do you get around this? If you're playing Sonic, you really cannot do a lot of things and if some things do/did work then it was a mistake on the opponents' part. You're at the mercy of the other player no thanks to the people who created this game and missed this part here. Granted you are still spared a "counterpick or lose" solution with some saving graces, but at top level play this matchup becomes just horrible to deal with.

You will need to play this matchup so many times in order to condition yourself to know what works and what doesn't, and always be at the very top of your game if you want to even have a chance to win. That means you will also have to understand every aspect of both characters' gameplay, and if you know this then that means you will have to bust out of crazy tricks with Sonic, because if super computers where playing this matchup there is no way in Hell Game & Watch should lose. Am I discouraging you from playing this matchup yourself?

That's a yes and no answer:

Yes because eventually (and) with enough practice, you will and could prevail.

No because if you're not confident and/or you're not at that skill level yet your chances of winning are statistically very, VERY low.

The best way to win this matchup is to play it many times over and over and heavily analyze it, because if you give up midway there is/was no point to it all, but if you have just started I cannot make the decision for you on whether you should dedicate a lot of time and effort to do this or not. Some great tips I can tell you know that would make things easier is that your key points should be controlling Sonic's speed, getting in your opponents' head, and take advantage of anything and everything you can and try to minimize the damage, for what that's worth.

Recommended Stages: Personal preference, though I'm leaning more towards platform stages, not Battlefield though but I mean something like Smashville.

Matchup Summary: On paper (stupid pun), this matchup should be in no way winnable for Sonic with the time/metagame this guide was made/written, however since no one person/thing but super computers can play perfectly there is still a chance at top/near perfect level gameplay, and for this reason alone the matchup is clocked at 65:35 Mr. Game & Watches favor.

I haven't played a good G&W in a while, but I haven't had much trouble with the match-up personally.

His smashes are all ridiculously powerful. They are pretty average/slow initially from looking at frame data, but They have insane priority, stay out for long, and slowness is counteracted by crazy IASA frames.

Thank god he's light.

Uair beats out key, so use it wisely.

If he lands key on the ground, run, sheild, slide and grab. Yea I know it has a landing hitbox and the lag is'nt terrible and stuff stuff, but you can still punish it with Sonics speed.

His dtilt is annoying,but just use your ftilt, and you should have no probs dealing with it at all.

God... Turtle. Turtle turtle turtle is more annoying than squirtle. None of his aerials particularly concern me except for turtle.

Running shield grabs are crucial here Imo, although i don't know what to do against turtle. For some reason I feel running into a SideB shield cancel is more effective against turtle, but I have no clue why.

So yea. G&W is succeptible to early Uthrow>Spring>Uair kills. Umm, your fsmashes both come out on the same frame, if djbrowny's data and the one on the tactical boards is correct. But his stays out longer, is much more powerful, and has dumb Iasa frames so its spammable. Dsmash can KO both very vertically and very horizontally. usmash is ridiculously strong as well.

Getting hit with a Judge #9 is arguably one of the most annoying things in the entire game. Its rare, but one I edgehogged a CPU G&W, and he would be able to make it back on stage because I sent him too low, so I was just holding on the edge so he wouldn't grab on. But then I get him with a judge 9, and die first. No fair.

Umm chef isn't that annoying. Most of the time I can get through with a well timed SDR. Even if you can't, just run and powershield, sonic is too quick.

I have no clue how ASC works against it though, because sometimes it will go through, others it wont. Which is basically always the case with ASC and projectiles, lol.

Does G&W bucket capture springs? I believe not, but am curious now, lol.

It doesn't.

The Spring has nothing like the special projectiles do (fireballs - Fire [Duh!?], Tjolt - Electricity [Again, Duh!?], Charged shot - Some wierd @#$%, Spring - physical damage; nothing too impressive.)

This is random, but I'm waiting so that in SSB4 when you do a spring midair, the spring flips 180 degrees, and bounce spikes anyone hit by it downwards XD.

More random... If MKs dair was a spike... *shivers*

I would laugh sooo hard.

Kinzer said:

Is it that you are sometimes unpredictable, or that you only have a few optinos to work with as is?

Edit: Please don't reply to this...or anybody else make a new post until Greenstreet gets here...

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Actually I always got mutiple opions to KO but sometimes I have to use a method I don't like.

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Game and Watch is tricky but he is a light weight but he has the chance move which can KO you if it hits 9 which kinda makes up for his weight anyone agree?

Remember how we talked about contributing? Take your convo into the PM system if you must. But not in my thread. This is about character matchups, not individual players. Also yay Mr Gaymenwatch. I play this matchup all the time. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. You get the idea.

Napilopez said:

This is random, but I'm waiting so that in SSB4 when you do a spring midair, the spring flips 180 degrees, and bounce spikes anyone hit by it downwards XD.

More random... If MKs dair was a spike... *shivers*

I would laugh sooo hard.

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This ^. Best idea ever. If i am thinking like u nap, and i hope i am, wen u spring it falls face down and spring spikes ppl if they hit the face of it?
That is pure sexiness.

I need the matchup summaries for pikachu and luigi and perhaps foxy?

I did the Fox one lol

ShadowLink84 said:

Learn how to STFU yes?

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how about no

hippyman69 said:

how about no

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How about spam this topic and get reported?

Chis said:

How about spam this topic and get reported?

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im disagreeing with someone. is that spamming?? lol
kthnxbai

You are not here to contribute but complain about someones spelling. You should STFU and leave. Don't post again unless you have something to contribute.

well, it is very annoying (irony) when people can not seem to grasp simple spelling and grammar. there/their where/wear etc. ok, ill shut up now.

off-topic:

hippyman69 said:

Well, it is very annoying (irony What irony?) when people can not seem to grasp simple spelling and grammar. There/their where/wear etc. Ok, I'll shut up now.

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on-topic:

So GAW uses up-B and floats overhead. What do you do?

I used to play GaW

Behaviour: A wall or priority. He has great moves, priority, knockback, damage. He's pretty much MK, weaker, less jumps and less speed. His aerial game is better than Sonic. As is his ground game... It's penetrable though. BTW, they will rack in damage aerial, and kill you on the ground. His aerials can't kill untill at major percentage (or they have fresh f-airs, but that's rare)

Commonly Used Moves: Fair, Bair, F-smash (to kill), d-tilt, grab to d-tilt/smash. F-air is too strong. It stays out much too long. Really, don't approach aerial front. His B-air is too good as well. It's a crab coming out, doing major hits, and decent knockback. They love this move. F-smash isn't as fast as Sonic's F-smash, but it's easy to fall for it... Just dont fall for it, K? D-tilt can be used to stop ground approach. Sonic's run is stopped + damage. SDR is canceled out (not sure on this). Sonic is very fast, so they must react quickly if your close. His grab's are pretty obvious. They'll use D-throw to d-tilt/smash. Smash prefered for knockback + both sides


How to Win: Don't approach. Let him approach. If he approaches trough, he'd better do it walking, cause his dash attack is too weak. Grab, let him go trough, grab. GaW is hard to gimp, because of his up-B. It's hard too punish. Remember he can attack out of it. GaW is lightweight, so that should really help you killing. Save your D-smash/F-smash. When he approaches aerial, block it. Nair approach is really gay. It cancels out + it's good. A smart GaW wont approach with f-air, cause of landing lag/stale move.


Recommended Stages:
Lylat cruise. If he gets himself stuck under the stage, he's done for. If he's offstage, either smack him out, or under the stage. If he's facing the ledge, drop a spring, hoping he bounces under the stage, and watch him fall to death.

Matchup Summary: GaW has a advantages over you. Try to cover it. I won't give a score, I'll let someone better do that, but I'd say GaW has advantage.

Tenki said:

off-topic:


on-topic:

So GAW uses up-B and floats overhead. What do you do?

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Run, shield or U-smash.

Oh okay.

Figures.

Stay grounded most of the time?

He's much like Luigi, much more aerial advantages than ground advantages.

Tenki said:

off-topic:


on-topic:

So GAW uses up-B and floats overhead. What do you do?

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There's the irony for you, heh heh. THERE IS NONE! See what I did there?

hippyman69 said:

There's the irony for you, heh heh. THERE IS NONE! See what I did there?

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Yea, you didn't quote his quote.