Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

Not sure if you guys could tell but i was being very very sarcastic. All i see is red lol

<3 Tenki!

We need brawl of Wifi again. I don't care if online play fails, it's still fun.

I'm kinda disappointed that even though we agreed that Zamus was even, Marth was normal disadvantage, and Pika was neutral, it was down on the charts as disadvantage, big disadvantage, and disadvantage.
Though I agree with the ZSS one to be honest.

"red" is just 60:40, 'on paper'.

In other words, it doesn't bother us because the rankings/ratings don't affect gameplay, and our player skill usually more than makes up for it lol.

It hasn't stopped us from taking 18th ;d

Some of those reds...shouldn't be red...and the like...

...I'll leave that to Greens to decide though.

I have yet to play a Sonic that can beat me and ive played NoR4U in real life. He was a really cool guy!

3050 7239 8269

AIM: Srsamuelson

Try to impress me. I'll be back later tonight.

Samuelson said:

I have yet to play a Sonic that can beat me and ive played NoR4U in real life. He was a really cool guy!

3050 7239 8269

AIM: Srsamuelson

Try to impress me. I'll be back later tonight.

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You're in the wrong thread. Go to the wifi challenge thread that we have.

Did I only use Falcon when we played forever ago? lol (answer it in the wifi thread)

You must be bored or something Samuel.

Anyway, I'll accept your challenge for the lulz, even though we are a long way from getting to Lucarty-O, I can't met myself get rusty now can I?

45:55 i thought was considered neutral?

60:40 is a disadvantage

70:30 is a big disadvante

80:20 is like how the heck am I supposed to win this?

More or less yeah, I think anything from 55-45 to 45-55 is neutral, anything 65-35 to 35-65 is a soft advantage/disadvantage, and anything 70-30 and above/lower is just a hard counter for one character or the other...which we should not have yet.

Wasn't Marth agreed to 65:35?

If we're using 60:40 as a disadvantage, Snake wins this 60:40.

Sonic can be annoying to Snake. It's really hard for Snake to hit Sonic if Sonic so chooses to be like that, and his projectiles aren't going to do a whole lot in terms of camping with them. Sonic can capitalize on Snake's limited ground mobility a bit and attack him during his recovery.

This doesn't mean anything though compared to what Snake can do to Sonic.

First off, it's important to keep in mind the fact that this is Snake. His Ftilt does 21% damage. He can kill you as low as 100%. With proper DI he's not going to be dying until around 180%-200%. He can use grenades whenever he wants, either shielding or not shielding. If he's shielding and you're not, you take 17% damage. If he's not shielding and you're not, you both take 17% damage. Due to the difference in weight though, Snake GLADLY takes the damage since Sonic is prone to die way earlier than Snake.

Snake outranges Sonic on the ground terribly, therefore forcing him to approach in the air or with Spin Dash/Homing Attack which Snake can easily stop both with good timing. You are limited on approaches due to his Ftilt and Utilt covering most of your approaching options.

Basically, on stage they both have a ton of options against each other. It doesn't matter though. Snake is a juggernaut in Brawl. He deals ridiculous damage, kills at insanely low percents, and lives forever. Sonic can't compete with this, no matter what he can abuse on the stage...Speed, beating Snake's recovery etc, staying out of tilting range etc. Fact is, you can play keep away all you want. Eventually you're going to need to get close to kill him, and you're just not going to be able to do it without taking an insane amount of damage.

Snake has a definite, clear advantage here.

JesiahTEG said:

If we're using 60:40 as a disadvantage, Snake wins this 60:40.

Sonic can be annoying to Snake. It's really hard for Snake to hit Sonic if Sonic so chooses to be like that, and his projectiles aren't going to do a whole lot in terms of camping with them. Sonic can capitalize on Snake's limited ground mobility a bit and attack him during his recovery.

This doesn't mean anything though compared to what Snake can do to Sonic.

First off, it's important to keep in mind the fact that this is Snake. His Ftilt does 21% damage. He can kill you as low as 100%. With proper DI he's not going to be dying until around 180%-200%. He can use grenades whenever he wants, either shielding or not shielding. If he's shielding and you're not, you take 17% damage. If he's not shielding and you're not, you both take 17% damage. Due to the difference in weight though, Snake GLADLY takes the damage since Sonic is prone to die way earlier than Snake.

Snake outranges Sonic on the ground terribly, therefore forcing him to approach in the air or with Spin Dash/Homing Attack which Snake can easily stop both with good timing. You are limited on approaches due to his Ftilt and Utilt covering most of your approaching options.

Basically, on stage they both have a ton of options against each other. It doesn't matter though. Snake is a juggernaut in Brawl. He deals ridiculous damage, kills at insanely low percents, and lives forever. Sonic can't compete with this, no matter what he can abuse on the stage...Speed, beating Snake's recovery etc, staying out of tilting range etc. Fact is, you can play keep away all you want. Eventually you're going to need to get close to kill him, and you're just not going to be able to do it without taking an insane amount of damage.

Snake has a definite, clear advantage here.

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No one was debating this, I think.

I agree with most of this. But I think Snake is easier to kill than you think. For Sonic at least.

Not really. I mean, percentage ways maybe I was a bit off. Maybe he dies a little earlier, I'm not sure. However, a shield camping Snake is nearly unkillable due to Sonic.

Snake can't shieldcamp vs DDD at higher percents because DDD CG's him to the edge and edgeguards him to death.

Snake CAN shieldcamp vs Pika, Sonic and other characters because at higher percents, their throws don't do much. It's just too hard to hit Snake, and if you DO hit his shield, you get punished pretty hard.

JesiahTEG said:

Not really. I mean, percentage ways maybe I was a bit off. Maybe he dies a little earlier, I'm not sure. However, a shield camping Snake is nearly unkillable due to Sonic.

Snake can't shieldcamp vs DDD at higher percents because DDD CG's him to the edge and edgeguards him to death.

Snake CAN shieldcamp vs Pika, Sonic and other characters because at higher percents, their throws don't do much. It's just too hard to hit Snake, and if you DO hit his shield, you get punished pretty hard.

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But Sonic has a pretty beastly grab/tech chase game. This combined with his good pivot grab, a shield camping Snake is not much of a threat.

and once he's off the stage a simple bair (I think), should knock Snake out of his cypher.

I do agree with 60:40 Snake.

At around 160, a fresh Boxthrow will kill snake off the edge of FD.

Grabbing as Sonic ain't too hard.

Cat's right, it's not like Grabs don't exist if you shield. :/

JesiahTEG said:

If we're using 60:40 as a disadvantage, Snake wins this 60:40.

Sonic can be annoying to Snake. It's really hard for Snake to hit Sonic if Sonic so chooses to be like that, and his projectiles aren't going to do a whole lot in terms of camping with them. Sonic can capitalize on Snake's limited ground mobility a bit and attack him during his recovery.

This doesn't mean anything though compared to what Snake can do to Sonic.

[1] First off, it's important to keep in mind the fact that this is Snake. His Ftilt does 21% damage. He can kill you as low as 100%. With proper DI he's not going to be dying until around 180%-200%. He can use grenades whenever he wants, either shielding or not shielding. If he's shielding and you're not, you take 17% damage. If he's not shielding and you're not, you both take 17% damage. Due to the difference in weight though, Snake GLADLY takes the damage since Sonic is prone to die way earlier than Snake.

[2] Snake outranges Sonic on the ground terribly, therefore forcing him to approach in the air or with Spin Dash/Homing Attack which Snake can easily stop both with good timing. You are limited on approaches due to his Ftilt and Utilt covering most of your approaching options.

Basically, on stage they both have a ton of options against each other. It doesn't matter though. Snake is a juggernaut in Brawl. He deals ridiculous damage, kills at insanely low percents, and lives forever. Sonic can't compete with this, no matter what he can abuse on the stage...Speed, beating Snake's recovery etc, staying out of tilting range etc. Fact is, you can play keep away all you want. Eventually you're going to need to get close to kill him, and you're just not going to be able to do it without taking an insane amount of damage.

Snake has a definite, clear advantage here.

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lolu silly, it's 60:40 SONIC'S ADVANTAGE UAShdfiuaheIUahEIUhaEUhaUEhaiueha jk.

[1] I find it kind of strange how you mention the F-tilt in all its glorious unstaleness all the time. It loses knockback, hitstun, and damage too, if you use it as a damager. I've heard of some rarer playstyles that actually save/unstale things like F-tilt for kills instead of just for damage. I thought Sonic survived U-tilt higher than 100%? Closer towards 110 with DI? lol still about the same, I know `.`;

I think we discussed a bit about grenades earlier, and one of the most brought-up answer to grenades was grabbing (Snake). If you pick up a grenade after shielddropping it, it takes away alot of 'danger' from your close range game, which makes you alot more susceptible to getting grabbed, especially if Sonic is close by. If you're trying to grenade counter via shield (obviously, not applicable to rolling/spotdodge/jumping after dropping a grenade), then grab can catch that too.

[2] How about running shield approaches? Snake isn't absolutely safe upon moving shield, even with is tilts, is he?
For the sake of curiousity, how is Snake's ending lag on his tilts? Is there any frame data on ending/cooldown lag?


Question(s):
- If the first hit of F-tilt connects, does the second hit become stale too?

edit:

Boxob said:

At around 160, a fresh Boxthrow will kill snake off the edge of FD.

Grabbing as Sonic ain't too hard.

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bad DI.

requesting confirmation on bair knocking Snake out of his Cypher.

It does...doesn't it?

thecatinthehat said:

requesting confirmation on bair knocking Snake out of his Cypher.

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Of course it does.

Yeah, I thought so. IDK why I doubted it before. God I need some sleep.

edit wait no lol

Tenki said:

bad DI.

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Boxthrows are stronger than back throws you ****ing scrub.

JesiahTEG said:

If we're using 60:40 as a disadvantage, Snake wins this 60:40.

Sonic can be annoying to Snake. It's really hard for Snake to hit Sonic if Sonic so chooses to be like that, and his projectiles aren't going to do a whole lot in terms of camping with them. Sonic can capitalize on Snake's limited ground mobility a bit and attack him during his recovery.

This doesn't mean anything though compared to what Snake can do to Sonic.

1) First off, it's important to keep in mind the fact that this is Snake. His Ftilt does 21% damage. He can kill you as low as 100%. With proper DI he's not going to be dying until around 180%-200%.

2) He can use grenades whenever he wants, either shielding or not shielding. If he's shielding and you're not, you take 17% damage. If he's not shielding and you're not, you both take 17% damage. Due to the difference in weight though, Snake GLADLY takes the damage since Sonic is prone to die way earlier than Snake.

3) Snake outranges Sonic on the ground terribly, therefore forcing him to approach in the air or with Spin Dash/Homing Attack which Snake can easily stop both with good timing.

4) You are limited on approaches due to his Ftilt and Utilt covering most of your approaching options.

5) Basically, on stage they both have a ton of options against each other. It doesn't matter though. Snake is a juggernaut in Brawl. He deals ridiculous damage, kills at insanely low percents, and lives forever.

6) Sonic can't compete with this, no matter what he can abuse on the stage...Speed, beating Snake's recovery etc, staying out of tilting range etc. Fact is, you can play keep away all you want. Eventually you're going to need to get close to kill him, and you're just not going to be able to do it without taking an insane amount of damage.

Snake has a definite, clear advantage here.

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First of all, thanks for actually coming and contributing XD

1) Ftilt is awesome, but I do think its overrated, at least in this matchup. It stales if overused quite a bit. If you are going to use it to kill, its easy to DI out of it, because you have more time to react since its a natural 2 hit combo. Its a good damager sure, but its not the end of the world. Again, Sonic's ASC does 18 damage, and followups are ridiculously easy as well so its usually 25+. Also, first hit of ftilt doesn't have the godly range of the second hit.

2) I think you underestimate Sonics grab game. Sonic Vs Snake is a particularly grab heavy match-up for Sonic. And its not as if grenades are particularly harmful to Sonic as opposed to other chars. You are however very correct about the damage:weight thing.

3) Not really terribly. Utilt is the scariest thing in this entire matchup IMO, so I'll give that to snake, because its godly. I believe it kills Sonic at 102% unstale with no DI on FD. Outranging on the ground isn't nearly as crucial as outranging in the air against Sonic IMO. Sonics tilts will clang with all of snake's tilts, and I'm pretty sure either equals or beats the range on the first hit of Snakes ftilt. And as Tenki mentioned, moving shield from a run, or SideB cancelling running shields deal well with the range issue.

4) Honestly, Sonic is never really limited in approach options against anyone except Olimar IMO, because almost all of his main approaches are cancellable. Sonics running shield grab deals pretty nicely with range issues as well.(shield hits hit, Sonic slides into grab range, grab). Especially against characters that have exploitable ending lag on his moves, which Snake does have. I'm pretty Sure Sonic can cover at least a fourth or third of FD in the ending lag of Snake's ftilt.

5) Yea but can't you say that as well about Snake vs MK? And that matchup is usually deemed about neutral. And I actually think Sonic has some stuff over snake that MK doesnt have, Like, Sonic is heavier. And Sonic can arguably get past campy snakes better as well. Sonic can deal damage on any large character very well, so that coutneracts the weight issue. And because Snake has ending lag on his moves, and Sonic is quick, landing a KO on snake really isn't that difficult as it may seem once he's damages enough.

6) This is where I disagree the most. Sonic won't, or at least shouldn't be trying to stay outside of Snakes range too much. I think this is a battle best fought close quarters. Its very grab dependant for Sonic. Because of Sonic's cancellable approaches and running speed, getting in close without taking alot of damage should not be a problem.

60:40 Snake looks pretty good to me. I haven't played a good Sonic before, but I've watched some on youtube. I think my Snake knowledge alone is good enough to provide some insight.

As Jesiah said, Snake's tilts do a great job of giving Sonic a hard time approaching, and this is extra good for Snake since Sonic has to approach. Snake also obviously has the KOing advantage in this match-up, but I wouldn't say by that much

Sonic is surprisingly not a light character and he has a great recovery, so I wouldn't count on the usually stale f-tilt getting kills on Sonic before the mid to high hundreds. U-tilt remains as deadly as ever though. It can easily get kills on Sonic in the low hundreds when not stale (good Snakes usually keep it fresh for KOs as well).

I'm not very knowledgeable about Sonic, but I know he's rather good at punishing Snake's recovery and briskly grabbing Snake when he lags. These are two of the most useful advantages to have against Snake, which is why this match-up is arguably Sonic's best against a top-tier character. When Sonic gets some momentum going, he can really give Snake a surprising amount of trouble for a bad character (no offense).

i love these threads

Jesiah, please upload a video where snake takes a fresh sonic fsmash, dsmash or bair from the middle of the stage at 180% and survives.

apparently my version of PAL brawl has every characters weight almost halved except for sonic.

djbrowny said:

i love these threads

Jesiah, please upload a video where snake takes a fresh sonic fsmash, dsmash or bair from the middle of the stage at 180% and survives.

apparently my version of PAL brawl has every characters weight almost halved except for sonic.

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the B-air is doable lol.

And I still have no response against Sonic running / pshield vs Snake tilt.

Shady Penguin said:

60:40 Snake looks pretty good to me. I haven't played a good Sonic before, but I've watched some on youtube. I think my Snake knowledge alone is good enough to provide some insight.

As Jesiah said, Snake's tilts do a great job of giving Sonic a hard time approaching, and this is extra good for Snake since Sonic has to approach. Snake also obviously has the KOing advantage in this match-up, but I wouldn't say by that much

Sonic is surprisingly not a light character and he has a great recovery, so I wouldn't count on the usually stale f-tilt getting kills on Sonic before the mid to high hundreds. U-tilt remains as deadly as ever though. It can easily get kills on Sonic in the low hundreds when not stale (good Snakes usually keep it fresh for KOs as well).

I'm not very knowledgeable about Sonic, but I know he's rather good at punishing Snake's recovery and briskly grabbing Snake when he lags. These are two of the most useful advantages to have against Snake, which is why this match-up is arguably Sonic's best against a top-tier character. When Sonic gets some momentum going, he can really give Snake a surprising amount of trouble for a bad character (no offense).

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I agree with most of this, but again, tilts don't give Sonic trouble approaching IMO =/ Because Sonic's approaches are cancellable, and Snake's tilts have exploitable ending lag, Snake's tilts should not be a problem for Sonic. Don't forget you're facing the fastest running character in the game. And yea, Sonic pretty much always has to approach, but thats never really a problem for Sonic anyways. Except against olimar imo, lulz.

60:40 just doesn't feel right to me, but I wouldn't mind that as a matchup number too bad. But I still think ROB and Pika are considerably harder for Sonic than this matchup. Oh well. I'll go with 60:40, for the community's sake, but I don't think its right.

Stage choices?

Tenki said:

And I still have no response against Sonic running / pshield vs Snake tilt.

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Well I can't do testing, but i watched some videos to get an idea. Against Snake ftilt, the first hit, running pshield should not be a problem. Against second hit, I think you should be able to land a grab from my distance analysis.Sonics shield grab from a run covers a distance of about from the middle FD to the end of the center pointy diamondy thingy, perhaps slightly less.(watched some vids to test this).

This is the range on the second hit of Snake's ftilt:


I'm quite sure Sonic's pshield>grab can cover more than that distance. It seems snake extends his hurtbox, so grabbing him out of this shouldnt be a prob, I can recall having done so before:

As for snakes Utilt:


That is just insane. I'm not sure how large Snake's hurtbox is in this, so I don't know if Sonic will be able to get a grab out of this or not, but I do believe he can. It shouldn't be that much of an issue, however, since snakes will save it for KOs usually anyways.

Not Battlefield.
Rainbow Cruise?

I'd agree with 40:60.

Luigi's mansion? Pillars block nades.

Camalange said:

Not Lylat Cruise for once either.

His explosive just blend in WAY too well there.

I think FD is pretty good against Snake.

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Lylat cruise is mean to colorblind people.

banhammers.

thecatinthehat said:

Luigi's mansion? Pillars block nades.

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So? lol

They deal really minimal damage while 'limiting' Snake's movement, run through them?

Don't ever take a Snake to Weegee's, it's literally Ftilt Heaven.

Imma repost this here, since I edited my last post and we've already gone on to a new page:

Tenki said:

And I still have no response against Sonic running / pshield vs Snake tilt.

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Well I can't do testing, but i watched some videos to get an idea. Against Snake ftilt, the first hit, running pshield should not be a problem. Against second hit, I think you should be able to land a grab from my distance analysis.Sonics shield grab from a run covers a distance of about from the middle FD to the end of the center pointy diamondy thingy, perhaps slightly less.(watched some vids to test this).

This is the range on the second hit of Snake's ftilt:


I'm quite sure Sonic's pshield>grab can cover more than that distance. It seems snake extends his hurtbox, so grabbing him out of this shouldnt be a prob, I can recall having done so before:

As for snakes Utilt:


That is just insane. I'm not sure how large Snake's hurtbox is in this, so I don't know if Sonic will be able to get a grab out of this or not, but I do believe he can. It shouldn't be that much of an issue, however, since snakes will save it for KOs usually anyways.

lolololol. **** I'm so lost today.

Napilopez said:

This is the range on the second hit of Snake's ftilt:

I'm quite sure Sonic's pshield>grab can cover more than that distance. It seems snake extends his hurtbox, so grabbing him out of this shouldnt be a prob, I can recall having done so before:

As for snakes Utilt:

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meh, it really doesn't feel that long-range most of the time. And if they're trying to be precise with tilts, that's what makes people susceptible to feints, because precision --> commitment --> punishable

Camalange said:

What colors are you blind to exactly?

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technically, I'm red-green colorblind. Certain shades of colors (not necessarily limited to red or green, I've screwed up blue/purple, yellow/green/orange, and red/brown/black) before. Red Snake on Lylat is the stupidest thing aside from dark GAW on Brinstar/Lylat.

running power shield answer


im snake. you run at me, i f-tilt you power shield, i dont finish the tilt, instead I jab
kills your grab attempt

or something that i didnt notice until yesterday, if i know that people want to shield the tilt, i just run and grab, because with good techchase skills, you are going to take 20-50 damage from 1 down throw.

you run to shield, i dash grab
is that enough answers for you?

im trying to get jesiah up in here, but he doesnt want to cause he thinks you wont listen to him...
lol

da K.I.D. said:

running power shield answer


1) im snake. you run at me, i f-tilt you power shield, i dont finish the tilt, instead I jab
kills your grab attempt

2) or something that i didnt notice until yesterday, if i know that people want to shield the tilt, i just run and grab, because with good techchase skills, you are going to take 20-50 damage from 1 down throw.

you run to shield, i dash grab
is that enough answers for you?

3) im trying to get jesiah up in here, but he doesnt want to cause he thinks you wont listen to him...
lol

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1) Hmm really? Not being sarcastic either. Will jab come out quicker than the second hit of ftilt? Because wouldn't you have to wait for the first hit to complete its animation? I don't see what exactly this does anyways if your in range to grab =/

2) Yea but thats just mindgames/reading though. Its not a machups specific thing. So I don't see of how much particular importance this is. What if I realize you're going to do that and punish accordingly? Plus, we aren't just gonna shield, we're gonna shield into a grab. And yea, Dthrow is killer.

3) I don't see why, we've listened to Jesiah pretty well I think. Simply refuting some of his less accurate points.