da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
when does f smash kill fox. I assumed it was around 110. and we dont die to up smash until I think 98%. thats not really a 20-40% difference...
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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
Rizk18
Smash Lord
Sonic's are definatley making it seem like this MU is hard for Sonic and easy for Fox. Not the case, lasers are a no no in this MU. You're going to have to play close combat because Sonic's speed is so stupid it gives us a chance to get in like 2 lasers? And lasers are a huge part of Fox's game. Sonic dies from U-smash fresh at around 104%.
+1 for Fox isn't saying that it's easy for Fox, Riz.
All I've been saying is that it's easier for Fox to KO. Which is true for most of Sonic's bad match ups, but extremely true for this one.
Also, Fox KOs Sonic earlier than 100% from usmash, I think.
@KID: All of our KO moves are dependent on stage positioning too. Fsmash may KO Fox at 98% or whatever from the edge of Final Destination, but it sure as hell won't on the opposite end. Fox's usmash doesn't really have that severe of a percentage distinction on his KO range. If you're at 95%-ish as Sonic on Final Destination, you can DI all you want, you're most likely KO'd if you get nailed with a fresh usmash.
All I've been saying is that it's easier for Fox to KO. Which is true for most of Sonic's bad match ups, but extremely true for this one.
Also, Fox KOs Sonic earlier than 100% from usmash, I think.
@KID: All of our KO moves are dependent on stage positioning too. Fsmash may KO Fox at 98% or whatever from the edge of Final Destination, but it sure as hell won't on the opposite end. Fox's usmash doesn't really have that severe of a percentage distinction on his KO range. If you're at 95%-ish as Sonic on Final Destination, you can DI all you want, you're most likely KO'd if you get nailed with a fresh usmash.
Rizk18
Smash Lord
Fixed the name.
Also I think your games with Megafox speak otherwise. This MU is so even and Sonic is very underrated.
Guess that means my games with DEHF from MLG Dallas and my games vs. Gnes mean that Falco is = at worst, and Diddy is = or something?
Fox has the advantage, and you're not really going to convince me otherwise, so just stop.
Fox has the advantage, and you're not really going to convince me otherwise, so just stop.
Fox's Lasers aren't used much in this matchup except to force an approach.
Sonic dies at 88%-90% against Fox's usmash, it's Snake who dies at 104%, not Sonic.
Unless you meant w/ DI, even then we don't kill you when you DI till about 110% regardless of the fact that you're light.
Your Fastfalls while some times bad can be used for frame trap like aerials to grab. (ex. Uair autocancel ->grab to punish a baited airdodge)
Sonic's Aerial Accel is average at best, and our Dair sucks, meaning when we're above you, all we can do is Air Dodge or Spring, if we spring all you have to do is landcamp, if we airdodge it's a free grab.
Your airgame all together beats ours except for our Bair, which is slow mind you.(Unlike yours) Our Uair barely out ranges your dair, if not ties with it. (this only matters when you don't shorthop it)
You have nearly as good recovery as us, w/ your long distance firefox, foxcopter and phantasm(although yours is more predictable).
Looking at sheer KO options, if the matchup is played right, Fox should always be able to kill Sonic first considering your more reliable KO moves Bair, Uair, Usmash, Dsmash.
Espy beats MegaFox because he's flat out better and more experienced than him, if Sonic beat Fox then I'd be beating MegaFox's fox all day, instead I only snag wins off his Snake(due to experience w/ the MU). Also, MegaFox just hasn't played enough against Sonic to know the MU.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
LOL. Anyways Riz you're talking nonsense. you are faster than us mid range and you can still follow up with lasers easily. Just cuz you're not getting 20 lasers like other matchups doesnt mean lasers dont serve their purpose. We both rack damage. Although you have some more legit setups in my opinion (though we do have dtilt shenanigans on you). Of course we are fast but dont act like fox is some slow moron, you have movement AND attack speed. Ultimately like Espy said, you kill faster than we do. Plain and simple. You have one of the best vertical killing tools in the game. How does this equate to being even to you?
You dont go through the trouble we do to find a kill. Very few characters go through that heart ache, and because of that fact, you will ALWAYS have an edge unless we gain some guaranteed damage racking setups or magical gimping tech. I concur wholeheartedly with Espy. +1 Fox
EDIT: and to some extent sonic is underrated, but dont go thinking he has to be better than he is because Espy owns someone. You dont know how much effort us Sonic mains try to put into our character. And obviously you dont realize how skilled as a player Espy is. He is damn good period. So it should be of no surprise that Espy was owning. Let Espy play TKD, and after TKD learns the match up, if it goes even then perhaps you may have a valid argument. Until then look at the simple facts;
you kill better.
You dont go through the trouble we do to find a kill. Very few characters go through that heart ache, and because of that fact, you will ALWAYS have an edge unless we gain some guaranteed damage racking setups or magical gimping tech. I concur wholeheartedly with Espy. +1 Fox
EDIT: and to some extent sonic is underrated, but dont go thinking he has to be better than he is because Espy owns someone. You dont know how much effort us Sonic mains try to put into our character. And obviously you dont realize how skilled as a player Espy is. He is damn good period. So it should be of no surprise that Espy was owning. Let Espy play TKD, and after TKD learns the match up, if it goes even then perhaps you may have a valid argument. Until then look at the simple facts;
you kill better.
Rizk18
Smash Lord
You're not going to convice me it isn't even.
1.Sonic dies from U-smash at 96% fresh with DI, Snake dies at 114% fresh with DI(Snake might be able to survive a bit more damage).
2.I've never seen a Fox combo U-air into a grab.
3. Don't be predictable and dair or airdodge right infront of us?
4. Our B-air is more awkward, your's isn't and you have better control of B-air than us. Yes ours is faster, doesn't mean it's better.
5. Firefox sucks and it too predictable, especially in this MU, it's super punishable.
6.Maybe
7.True.
1. Lasers don't serve their purpose in this MU you moron. 20 lasers> Just a few. Is there something wrong with you? Do you know how important lasers are?
2.Best vertical kill move? So what, look at Ivysaur, Lucas, R.O.B. Nuff said.
3. D-tilt combos into itself several times like I said. Plus, your U-throw at 0% to buffered U-tilt is a true combo, just throwing it out there.
4. Didn't bother reading your edit.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
I'd give it to Fox. It's near even but Fox's ability to rack up damage and play it relatively safe against Sonic when he's in the lead can be and IS really annoying. Like we can't play the run away game against Fox until we're a stock up because his lasers tack on damage and refresh his moveset pretty quickly. 9 lasers is all it takes. For those who don't know, Fox's busted *** Usmash comes out on Frame 8.
Rizk18
Smash Lord
It comes out frame 10.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
No, it comes out on 8. Our **** comes out on like 10 or something.
Rizk18
Smash Lord
Look at the frame data once again and come back.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Rizk18
Smash Lord
Hits on Frame: 10
Suck it Oreo.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Kinzer namesearch or something.
Kinzer
Mammy
Done.
Hitlag is anything but what time the move hits. Most moves tend to have start-up, active hitbox frames, and cooldown. For the sake of this argument, First Active Frame (or FAF) is the first frame a move comes out with a hitbox.
For example, Sonic's Down Tilt has five frames of start-up, so 1-5 is just animation. Frame six is when the attack comes out. Everything else is irrelevant.
... The Smash Lab did release a General Standard Terms list, so if you have any doubts or if you're curious about what something is, you can look here. It probably explains it better than I can, and I'm not sure how to describe hitlag that isn't basically stealing this already lol.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=302576
Hitlag is anything but what time the move hits. Most moves tend to have start-up, active hitbox frames, and cooldown. For the sake of this argument, First Active Frame (or FAF) is the first frame a move comes out with a hitbox.
For example, Sonic's Down Tilt has five frames of start-up, so 1-5 is just animation. Frame six is when the attack comes out. Everything else is irrelevant.
... The Smash Lab did release a General Standard Terms list, so if you have any doubts or if you're curious about what something is, you can look here. It probably explains it better than I can, and I'm not sure how to describe hitlag that isn't basically stealing this already lol.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=302576
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Hey Rizk...
SUCK IT!
SUCK IT!
I don't have to.
It's -1 on the MU spread, and most people in here agree with me, so I'm done with the matter.
I put what I had to say in the quote :3
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
uthrow>buffered utilt isnt a true combo, you dont know what the hell you are talking about. ANd you are an idiot if you think KO power= best KO option. I guess D3 has the best fsmash then.
Dude all you need is a few lasers so you can refresh your moves a bit. That can be done while you knock us away safely. Thats all the lasers need to do in this matchup. Noone cares about convincing your ***. You dont even know whats good for your character. If you cant understand that Fox's usmash is good then you are an idiot. Plain and simple. Noone cares what you think, people care about the matchup and solid evidence. You probably just got ***** by some Sonic and you need an excuse for yourself.
EHY FOX's USMASH IS 10 FRAMES (yeah right)!!!! NVM MAN YOU RIGHT ITS EVEN. THATS SO SLOW COMPARED TO OUR KO OPTIONS! HOW FOOLISH OF ME!!!!
Dude all you need is a few lasers so you can refresh your moves a bit. That can be done while you knock us away safely. Thats all the lasers need to do in this matchup. Noone cares about convincing your ***. You dont even know whats good for your character. If you cant understand that Fox's usmash is good then you are an idiot. Plain and simple. Noone cares what you think, people care about the matchup and solid evidence. You probably just got ***** by some Sonic and you need an excuse for yourself.
EHY FOX's USMASH IS 10 FRAMES (yeah right)!!!! NVM MAN YOU RIGHT ITS EVEN. THATS SO SLOW COMPARED TO OUR KO OPTIONS! HOW FOOLISH OF ME!!!!
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
up throw up tilt i believe is a combo on fox and falco and a few others,
also, everyone here seems to be missing the point of lasers, the MAIN purpose of them is to force the other character to approach, which they do reliably in every matchup, this one included, since sonic doesnt have a horizontal projectile.
also, everyone here seems to be missing the point of lasers, the MAIN purpose of them is to force the other character to approach, which they do reliably in every matchup, this one included, since sonic doesnt have a horizontal projectile.
Kinzer
Mammy
Mmm~, good sir, it is in fact a frame-trap even on Fox.
Granted, it just so happens that since he falls so fast that even if he airdodges, more likely than not he may or may not go too far out for any "Utilt" follow-ups, which from the testing I did seemed to be the most "guaranteed" follow-up.
However, I will say that I haven't confirmed whether or not Fox will actually drift too far.
I got the post if you wanna see the numbers at least. Thanks to Jerry for covering my lazy butt and posting my cheat-sheet.
Granted, it just so happens that since he falls so fast that even if he airdodges, more likely than not he may or may not go too far out for any "Utilt" follow-ups, which from the testing I did seemed to be the most "guaranteed" follow-up.
However, I will say that I haven't confirmed whether or not Fox will actually drift too far.
I got the post if you wanna see the numbers at least. Thanks to Jerry for covering my lazy butt and posting my cheat-sheet.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
LOL KID you are the one who alerted me to the fact that uthrow > utilt is NOT guaranteed when I thought it was.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
It's kinda pointless to even say that in this match-up since we're gonna be approaching anyway.
Kinzer
Mammy
... But... we approach Donkey Bong and he's still free~! ;_;
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
That's because you play free DKs. Go play one that's worth something.
Kinzer
Mammy
... Daaaaaaaamn~!
I thought I just said this forever ago too.
The players may be good, but their character is not.
If no one else, Wedge knows how much I'm willing to put on the line to prove that point.
But that's aside from the point. What I meant to say was why exactly would approaching be that deciding factor?
I'm just curious, not really trying to go anywhere with this.
I thought I just said this forever ago too.
The players may be good, but their character is not.
If no one else, Wedge knows how much I'm willing to put on the line to prove that point.
But that's aside from the point. What I meant to say was why exactly would approaching be that deciding factor?
I'm just curious, not really trying to go anywhere with this.
KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
Guys aside from getting this match up chart done. We gotta pull in the trouneys Ws if we want our C tier to almost high tier back. these are the only two things that are stopping us. We gotta make a team effort.