Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

dude, you are good, do you know how hard you would **** if you played MK snake or D3?

i play sonic, i get about the same tourney results as you. if either of us played top tier, we would run shiznit.

lol i just realized i left my controller at my friend's house yesterday...no smash until i get it back.

Quick, Steeler, one more post. Too bad you can't play, I want to learn the matchup.

I wanna play someone around 11-midnight eastern tonight please

Rawr that's 8 o' clock, but I'll just call it even since a couple of us agree to that, and both saids have people saying it's in X character's advantage.

Uhm... moving on, let's talk about Ivysaur now.

I think Ivysaur is an Olimar without the Pikmin requirement.

It has no reliable third jump, poor aerial mobiltiy (I think Ivysaur has the third worst mobility in the game if I read/remember that somewhere correctly), still doesn't mean they can't just Razor Leaf you if you try to hang on the ledge to knock you out and snap onto it themselves, so beware of that if you try to edgehog Ivysaur.

Razor Lead while on the stage... is very slow... slow enough where I think you could do a Spinshot into a Boxobair over any Razor Leaf, no matter the angle.

Sonic isn't as suspectible to Bullet Seed as some other characters are. Sonic is skinny and about as tall as Mario... with pretty good aerial speed to escape Bullet Seed. I suggest you stay in the air so that if Ivysaur misses it, you have about a full second to punish it, because it takes some time to drop BS, and besides that the initial hitbox that sucks you into the BS is on the ground, so if you're in the air, you won't get pushed into the ****. Being in the air probably also allows you to take less damage from BS if you're far on the side.

Now that I think about it, just how well can Sonic punish BS after he gets out of it, can't he just Dair/ FF Bair after he breaks free from the BS to hit Ivysaur before it drops the move?

Moving away from special abilities now... Ivysaur has a Bair that has long range,, and Sonic has nothing in his moveset to answer it with, so anybody got any suggestions to move around that?

Fair has some decent power, but a bit of lag, and as we all know, Sonic is pretty good in that field.

Nair can probably be SDIed up and away from Ivysaur, just Spring if you get caught in this. Now as for punishing it, a simple Bair/Dair should take care of it.

Then there is Uair and Dair, very powerful, let's Ivysaur stall in the air for a bit, or gets him down a bit faster. Ivysaur really only has one shot to hit you with Uair, just avoid that anyway you can. Treat it like you were your opponent trying to avoid Sonic's Spring to Uair K.O., he can only hunt you down for so long before he can't chase you because he has to freefall to get footing again.

I'll say more once we get a couple more people participating here.

talk about all 3 at the same time if only for the reason that, saying that, squirt is going to damage rack and than down throw so that he can down b for the kill is a legit tactic and strategy and probably essential

We can talk about all three of them after we cover them all, which was what I want to do, have each pokeyman have their own section, and then just call PT as a whole stratigy.

Razor leaf isnt that slow, you can control the speed by tapping forward when you throw it and then it becomes about as fast as a 3/4 charged toon link arrow.

Ivys Bair ***** sonic but it only does 4 damage a pop ( ={ )

Sonic needs to space his bair well in this matchup to compete.

Ivy has lots of nice somewhat hard to land kill moves which can wreck sonic pretty early.

Sonics offstage game isnt really that great so I wouldnt concentrate too much on Ivys whole tether deal.

Ivysaur can fullhop fair as a good ranged approach (that kills)

Spotdodge to bulletseed hurts no matter who the character is.

As a sonic you must get the gimp against Ivy or else you will not be killing him until way too long. All of Sonics kill moves (theres only 3 legitimate usable ones if i recall) require you to be in a range that you either wont get in due to Ivys superior range, or have to risk getting dodged to frame 4 bullet seed or a nair.

Basically, Ivysaur beats you on the ground with superior defensive camping. His range stops a lot of legitimate sonic approaches through the air, and his attacks are generally of better range and higher priority. Ivysaur has pretty poor air speed, but Sonic's isnt all that fantastic either so I recommend taking advantage of the ground speed you have and play a hit and run style.

Overall this ones prolly 60/40 Ivy.

P.S.: I still wanna play someone wfc to learn the sonic matchup better, I have a great squirtle, a decent ivy, and a good charizard, so youll be learning the matchup nicely if you play me.

Razor Lead if still easy to see coming, what with Ivysaur lifting a couple of legs and thrusting its body forward when it releases it. Sonic has no trouble dealing with projectiles even if he doesn't have one himself.

Also where did you get the idea that Sonic's offstage game isn't that great. You out to know that we don't have to hang onto the ledge, we could just as well let go and drop a Spring, if you try to Tether it will just intercept you and push you further away from the ledge. Sonic can destroy Tether recoveries like that, but we don't have to do jus that. Ivysaur is pretty slow in the air, and Sonic iirc has the 6th fastest aerial speed in the game, he will have no trouble fighting Ivysaur offstage with that aerial control and astronomical recovery.

IMO this matchup is even thanks to Ivysaurs moveset being able to lock-out Sonic and make any miSteak a costly one, but Ivysaur just gets outsped by Sonic no matter where you take the fight, and if Sonic can make the right choices during the fight, it's going to hard to get him off of you.

Post up your FC and we can get somethign arranged.

If ivy gets rated any worse than 55:45 Sonics favour Ill lose all hope in this matchup thread forever

What?

No way, I can't see that happening... ever.

**** not playing brawl.

i'll play you tonight at twelve, zaph.

edit: around twelve thirty, actually.

yo kinzer lets play

or whoever ill be here at 12:30


1590 4673 5052

Well, I've registered you, get in the room.

DJ I think its pretty clear that Ivysaur : Sonic is 90:10. Ivysaur is just too fast, and has so many kill moves. Without even considering ivysaur's nigh on unstoppable recovery you have to concede that its going to be nearly impossible for sonic to touch ivysaur without taking at least 400% damage. Sonic only gets the 10 because of the spring.

So anyway, lets play some straight ivysaur vs sonic matches and test some shiz out, mkay?

ok kinzer im here rdy to play?

Zeph, I'll play you if he doesn't show up.

I haven't played in a while, though.

Considering he told you to get in the room I'm assuming he's ready to play

I'm going to test what ivysaur can do out of sonics uair...as soon as DJ gets online anyway.

Lag was okay... so what do you think Zeph?

If you need the matchup from another perspective, fight Boxob.

alright ggs kinzer, a bit of lag but oh well.. I need to let you know that playing all the matches on FD was pretty gay of you, you wont get a good idea of how good PT is by playing on a stage thats way better for sonic then it is for PT.

You are the first decent sonic i've fought so it will take me a few more games to learn the matchup a bit better. We can play again 2moro if u like.

I think you have a good sonic but by the end of the matches a lot of the tricks you were using has pretty obvious answers. I mean using that homing move is asking for flamethrower **** everytime

I just like Final D for matchup analysis, I know that other stages might be good for PT.

Oh I forgot to mention this, but what stages does PT do decent on... any that we should CP against you?

CP frigate orpheon and watch PT get completely destroyed

Ivy and Char dont like having people below them but squirtle doesnt care. FD is a bad place for matchup analysis lol use Smashville its the most neutral of all stages. PT loves Corneria and some PT users like Norfair. I like delfino and pirate ship and Yoshis Island is my best neutral with PT. Lylat cruise is pretty good for PT as well. FD sucks for PT so its pretty lame we had to play all those matches there --'

All the matches were either 2stock for me or 2stock for you :S

tcranter said:

CP frigate orpheon and watch PT get completely destroyed

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CP frigate orpheon, and watch me counterpick GaW and watch Sonic get *****.

i think steeler CPs ppl on norfair....

sonic is a punishment heavy character, so i think that ivy slow speed in doing a lot of things will get him whooped.

im pretty sure we can stand out side the range of your back air, and run in and hit you before you hit the ground,

i feel like everytime ivy uses razor leaf she should get punished for it.

i dont think ivy has any truly safe moves in this matchup to use with out fear of getting punished with the exception of like, f-tilt.

D'oh, nobody told me about Pokeymanz Trainor having Final D as a bad stage.

Fair enough, from now on when I fight people for teh lulz, I'll go to Smashville (TN).

I don't know how though, that moving platform is kind of wierd, but whatever.

Norfair I can understand, with all the ledges for Ivy to tether and junk.

Pirate Ship IMO is just bad for Sonic.

It's settled, Final D for neutral CP against PT.

Delfino is okay... just PT does better here.

Onto Ivysaur... needz moar opinions.

k well we need to fight again cuz i played like a scrub and relied on general strategy for a very non general character.

Well, I'll make the room again, we can go ahead and test out different stages just so I peronsally know/feel which stage might be best.

We'll start with Norfair, and just choose whatever stage you feel.

ivysaur has a 4 (?) frame nair with solid damage output and very good shield pressure, that easy chains into another nair, uair, utilt, or bullet seed for when sonic is all up in its grill.

ftilt has very good range (better than dtilt) that shieldpokes often, a very good answer to a sonic using a shield-canceled dash approach.

jab is really, really annoying for ground approaches.

jab and ftilt will really bother sonic's shield canceled dashes. ivy has a great grab range, but it's pretty laggy. i'd rather jab/ftilt. pivot grab every once in a while is surprising because it's so much quicker than the normal grab.

aside from bair, ivysaur can also use autocancelled fairs to space. ivy can also save it to kill at like 110-130%, which is a better use, imo.

bair itself can be followed up with a nair, ftilt, or second bair.

UAIR omg too good. fear the uair, and ivys that can predict the air dodge and then use it to kill at less than 90%.

razor leaf isn't there to camp, it's there to use at mid range to space and create openings that ivysaur can take advantage of, like a grab or ftilt. overall, you shouldn't see much of razor leaf though.

spring is solid against the tether, hopefully the ivy can di it up so that it doesn't hurt the recovery too much.

wish we had more to go off of than wifi matches. ): anyone going to be at the midwest championships next month? :D

also FD isn't a bad stage for PT. gives sonic more room to run around, but that's about it. just stage strike it in tourney so that you have to go to smashville or yoshi's island. i assume that sonic has better CP stages than FD.

Rawr Final D is probably Sonic's best neutral CP... or Yoshi's Island, one of the other... sometimes when Lylat is a neutral, it might be a good place to go as well.

I dunno how Bair will follow into other moves other than another Bair... maybe the Sonic DIing into Sonic...

Also most of the Sonics are in the Northeast of the U.S. I'm in NV, some are in TX, and everybody else is somewhere within the upper mid portion.

Kinzer said:

Rawr Final D is probably Sonic's best neutral CP... or Yoshi's Island, one of the other... sometimes when Lylat is a neutral, it might be a good place to go as well.

I dunno how Bair will follow into other moves other than another Bair... maybe the Sonic DIing into Sonic...

Also most of the Sonics are in the Northeast of the U.S. I'm in NV, some are in TX, and everybody else is somewhere within the upper mid portion.

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Ivy can bair into DJ nair. naturally ivy will be di'ing toward you.

Its a shame your connection didn't work =(

I agree with most of your post, but let me address some things:

Steeler said:

ftilt has very good range (better than dtilt) that shieldpokes often, a very good answer to a sonic using a shield-canceled dash approach.

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Hmm not so sure about this. From experience this hasn't been a problem. In fact, very few attacks really present me with a problem in shield canceled approaches. Sonic gets a large quick slide out of it, and it is often powershielded too(will invibility from Powershield outlast Ivy ftilt enough to get in a grab? I think so).

jab is really, really annoying for ground approaches.

jab and ftilt will really bother sonic's shield canceled dashes.

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Same as above, hasn't been a prob in experience

aside from bair, ivysaur can also use autocancelled fairs to space. ivy can also save it to kill at like 110-130%, which is a better use, imo.

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Bairs and fairs are indeed annoying, although shield approaches also seem to work fine, although the Sonic's spacing and timing has to be impeccable =/

UAIR omg too good. fear the uair, and ivys that can predict the air dodge and then use it to kill at less than 90%.

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Uair is scary, but realize that due to spring+dair, Sonics are quite infrequently hit by anyone's Uair. Spring just avoids Uairs and even stops many of them too easily, and getting back to the ground should be safe and quick with Dair.

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well if you perfect shield the ftilt then it's no problem. but that's the case with every move in this game lol.

jab is the same deal but harder to punish because the hitboxes can just keep coming out until you get out of it. perfect shielding it won't help much because the jabs are faster than whatever sonic has, except maybe his own jab. you'd likely have to jab immediately out of that powershield...and you'll have to be close to ivysaur to hit with the jab.

ivysaur has a sizable margin of error because the only attack sonic really has that has similar range is the ftilt. idk how viable a shield cancel dash to ftilt approach is for sonic. it comes out on frame 6, as does ivysaur's ftilt. jab is frame 7. dtilt is frame 4. add shield drop lag and ivysaur will usually be able to outspeed...

yes, bair does very little shield damage so a shield canceled dash is your best (maybe only?) answer for it. just beware of a nair or bullet seed follow up.

good point on the uair stuff.

also, just a note on frame data with PT...we aren't 100% sure on anything because all we have is the info from firemario's thread a while back, and i've seen various character boards come in and say some of it is wrong. but it's a good estimate, at least.

So a fully charged SDR should be able to cancel out a Razor Leaf...

Sonic's quills FTW.

you sonics have SO many acronyms

SDR > SDJ > HAC = Wifi Combo. I don't like when people saying FD is good for Sonic "just because it gives him room to run around." It has more reason that I can't think of. Probably that it's a big stage and Sonic can recovery from almost anywhere with a second jump

Steeler said:

you sonics have SO many acronyms

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We can't help it.

Gf2tw said:

I don't like when people saying FD is good for Sonic "just because it gives him room to run around." It has more reason that I can't think of. Probably that it's a big stage and Sonic can recovery from almost anywhere with a second jump

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Is that not true?

Is true, but not only reason

djbrowny said:

Ivysaur is still lol. Defensive wall is hard to get through, but once you do its just ****. Many of ivys spacing moves like bair, ftilt, jab combo can actually be punished with a DA easily enough. Spam u-air and gimp like mad. Even if you dont get a low % KO (which you should at least half the times you face ivy) when it comes to landing ko moves on each other, Sonic should have an easier time landing one on ivy. His fsmash is quite punishable on block, dsmash doesnt kill, dash attack is too slow and all his other KO moves require you to be above ivysaur. If you're ever above ivysaur trying to attack through it, you're doing it wrong. 60:40 at best

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I had about 16 consecutive sonic v ivysaur matches with tcranter today... and i still think this sums it up. I swear half the total damage i took in the matches was from that godforsaken n-air lol. If i lost about 32 stocks total, id say 2 were usmash, 2 uair, 4 upb (including stage spikes), 2 SD's, 2 dash attack and 20 fsmashes. If you can avoid the fsmash as well as possible you can live to silly %'s when ivy begins to get KO'd by tilts. At least avoiding the fsmash is a bit easier than avoiding squirtles dthrow.

F-smash is a very easy attack to block. I usually have the timing to powershield/normal shield it on wifi and grab him. BTW, U-throw Ivysaur, force him into a second jump and U-air him. U-air beats everything he has (I think).