Ganon Techs, Skills, Frame Data, and Hitboxes

Hello everyone. This thread was originally created by Gleam. Only PhantomX' moderator magic is the cause of the forums identifying me as the author of this post. I took over this thread at some time on June 28, 2009 (whenever it is that PhantomX wrote me in here) in order to keep this going.
Gleam, the originator, is no longer with us, so to remember him, I will enshrine the introduction he gave to his thread, here:

Gleam said:

Things pretty much just stopped in the Ganondorf board. However, throughout the board users appeared and brough out useful and or intersting ideas to the Ganon board. Some of them random (Blowing up mines with utilt) To interesting combo-like killers. (F-throw----->Wizard Foot for an Early KO on characters with poor recoveries.)

Now I don't have the time, the patience, nor the skill to even think of making a Ganon guide, but there is something I can do. Copy pasting new ideas in a specialized format for everyone to use. While usually, I'd just wait until a guide came out,who knows how long it'll take until someone picks up Ganon and starts writing a new guide for him here. I doubt anything in the other ones are going to be updated soon unfortuantely.

So basically, there needs to be some update changes around here. And what better way of putting these new Ganon techs in then a list for everybody to see!?

Take note that the only thing I take credit in, is actually putting everything together here. All these Techs and stuff were found by different people. I pretty much Copy and Paste.

Click to expand...

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~​

INTRODUCTION

I'll be doing edits to reorganize this data over the next while bit by bit. When I'm done with it, I'll claim it to be my own. Until then, consider these modifications to be "proactive editing tips" to Gleam's work.


I am reserving this space to be some form of notice or update delivery to readers. My changes will require feedback, and I don't foresee all such things as will be needed, but among them are 'requests for validation'. That is, I look on some of this and it seems... outdated. I want to confirm that everything here is not just true but useful, including the expertise-based tips. Does this all apply to Ganon and Brawl as it is now?
I am looking for a format with which to query each entry in this thread for potential modification - or removal - under the consent of the community.


*~*~*~


The following is, as the title identifies, a list of techs and skills. A list is, as it turns out, formally defined as a totally ordered collection. The notion of a collection is intuitive, and the notion of ordering is simply that every position is either strictly before or strictly after every other position, where a "position" is something that holds an "element" in the list. That clearly corresponds to the top-and-bottom arrangement of this text (something that the use of words can't avoid, you might notice).

[/Information Science lesson]

Each entry will be distinguished in virtue of a rigid formatting that defines an entry's beginning, content, and end. As my edits are ongoing, this property is not yet true. My first goal is to make this true.

Here's the rough format of each entry:
---

Name of move: (having the word "murder" in front is usually preferable.)
Type: (Is it a tech, combo, etc?)
Input: (Do you smash on that C-stick until your hands are raw?)
Effect: (what is the out come)

Videos: (If possible, can you post a video of doing said move)
---

---


Full Hop Nair
Type: Mechanical fact
Input: Full Hop Nair
Effect: The foe is or is not hit depending on its height and stance if it is standing.

INCOMPLETE
>Lucas, Ness data needed (although we can take a pretty good guess).
>Fatigued Charizard data needed
>Confirmation of data for Wolf at all points of his idling requested



Ganon: Yes
Bowser: Yes
Donkey Kong: Yes
Ike: Yes
Zero Suit Samus: Yes
Charizard: Yes
Marth: Yes
Snake: Yes
R.O.B.: Yes
C. Falcon: YES
Zelda: Yes
Link: Yes
Samus: Yes
Shiek: Yes
Falco: Yes

King Dedede: Yes
Pit: Difficult - Appears to require frame perfection
Peach: Difficult (see Pit)
Yoshi: Difficult (see Pit)
Wolf (standing): ?
Charizard (fatigued): ?
Lucario: No
Luigi: No

Mario: No
Sonic: Tsk tsk tsk.
Toon Link: No
Wario: No
Fox: No
Diddy Kong: No
Lucas: ?
Ness: ?
Mr. Game & Watch: No
Ice Climbers: No
Wolf (hunching): No
Pikachu: No
Ivysaur: No
Squirtle: No
Jiggs: No
Metaknight: No
Kirby: No
Olimar: No



Bair #s
Type: Attack
Input: Bair

Effect: A list of characters who can be hit by Ganon's short hopped auto canceled bair.

1. Donkey Kong
2. Zelda
3. Link
4. Samus
5. Zero Suit Samus
6. Fox
7. Falco
8. Marth
9. Snake
10. Ike
11. Bowser
12. King Dedede
13. Pit
14. Charizard
15. Yoshi
16. R.O.B.
17. Captain Falcon
18. Sheik
19. Ganondorf (tallest character in the game after all)

Note-All of these characters can be hit by said auto canceled bair when standing (Although I did not do this for EVERY character.) It can pretty much be said that the taller/bulkier the character is, the easier it is to Bair them. Remember that while all of these character can be hit, some of them have to be in certain positions for it to work.

Example, try to bair Zelda or Sheik up close and everything and your Bair will miss.



Ganon Likes Fruit ~Another fascinating find from our favorite Swedish Ganon Z1GMA

Type: Matchup-specific Advanced Technique
Input: Stutterstep downtoss (item toss) + Choke
Effect: Stronger guaranteed combos on Diddy from Flame Choke

Z1GMA said:

[epic image in original post ~PK-ow!]

Banana choking


"Banana choking" is the outcome of my latest research.

I was playing around with Ganondorf's GlideToss the other day.
Then I came across this worthless it seems-technique, which I don't know if it's already been discovered or not. Most likely, it has.
[...]
(Let's call it "Studderstep Downtoss" for now)

It's performed by starting a dash and then immediately tossing an item down using the C-stick; just like performing Ganondorf's iDA, but with an item.

Again, this technique is... err... WAS totally worthless... until now.
You see, when you mix the StudderStep Downtoss with the Gerudo, crazy **** starts to happen!

"Banana choking" is the term for
[Gerudo -> StudderStep Downtoss] (while holding a banana peel.)
It deals 8% damage, 17% combined with Gerudo, and knocks the opponent back.
You should've figured out by now that this is killer Vs Diddy Kong.


( Important! Banana choking doesn't work without
the StudderStep Downtoss.
The StudderStep Downtoss is what makes all of this possible. )
Yep. If you just throw the banana straight down after the Gerudo, it'll miss Diddy 80% of the time. Plus, even if it DOES connect, it'll only make Diddy trip without dealing any damage, and then he can escape before you can do anything.

Performed correctly, it's a GARANTEED 41% damage-Gerudo, that works at ANY % !
Banana choke -> Pivot Fsmash (41%) Kills Lv9 Diddy at 55% at the center of FD. (Sweet spotted)
Banana choke -> Gerudo -> Ftilt (39%)
Banana choke -> BDC stomp (39%) {+Uair at low %'s (51%)
Banana choke -> Gerudo -> Dtilt (38%)
Banana choke -> Gerudo -> Jab (35%)
Banana choke -> SH FF Fair (34%)
Banana choke -> iDA (32%)
Banana choke -> Wizkick (29%)
Banana choke -> WP (50%) {Garanteed if Diddy buffers a GetUpAttack.

This can be used for both damage racking AND killing!

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz6EMulsx00&feature=channel_page

Useful thoughts/hints/tips

Click to expand...

Ganon's True Damage ~Give thanks to Wienner
Type: Data
Input: -
Effect: Cool story, bro

Go here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231959


Ganon's Hot Spots ~The Swedish Ganon knows all...Good job Z1GMA.
Type: Zones
Input: -
Effect:

Z1GMA said:

[PURPLE FIIIAAA! removed for aesthetics. Sorry, Ziggy. ~PK-ow!]


PURPLE FIIIAAA shows where Ganondorf is dangerous.

Does this picture seem right to you?

Discuss!

Click to expand...

Waddle Stomp ~Originator lost to time. Was not Gleam. 9_9

Type: Matchup-specific Exploit / Mechanic interaction
Input: D-air Dedede's Waddle Dees & Waddle Doos
Effect:

1. Dair-ing a Waddle Dee will cause it to shoot upwards. At this time Dedede's throw animation is still in effect and if he tries to throw another one...nothing will happen. Just lag.
   
2. If you Dair a Dee or Doo while it is initially being thrown, it will freeze in place (spinning hypnotically but not moving), and the same change to the functionality of D3's side-B will take effect.

Videos: None yet



Mythbustin Ganon ~DAD <3

Type: Excerpts from DAD's Ganon iz a Mythbusta
Input: Varies
Effect: Pull off tricks that's not common knowledge you can do.

(I'll find some way to reformat this. ~PK-ow!)



Salmon Smash ~another Z1Gma production :3
Type: Attack technique
Input: Forward -> Back -> Fsmash (Dash dance -> reverse Fsmash)
Effect: Ganon's already outrageously long Stutter-Stepped Fsmash is augmented to an amazing point.

Videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1rPg1TOrZQ&feature=channel_page


Updated Gerudo Chart ~Created and done by F3Niix...give him praise!

Type: Data
Input: Choke followup
Effect: Stab horror and trepidation into your opponent's quickening heart (i.e. choke combos)


(click the chart)




Chainchoking ~An amazing idea and credited to Twilight Prince.
Type: Choke chains
Input: Chain chokes
Effect: Chain choking
=\ heh

"Since the Chainchoking thread is dying down and hasn't been bumped recently I'm just going to put TP's OP here." ~Gleam

The idea is reacting to an opponents rolls and wake-ups with Gerudo in order to rack up damage, and place the enemy at the edge of a level with the intent of KOing them.

Twilight Prince said:

CHAINCHOKING
​

Ganondorf, the King of Evil, is the strongest character in the game. If he wanted, he could easily destroy all of his opponents. This is clear whenever he chokes them and engulfs them in purple flames of death. However, Ganon pities the pathetic fighters, and so he let's them go without killing them. Unfortunately, this leads to Ganon occasionally losing a match. The following is my attempt to convince Ganon to not let go after he has started choking the enemy. I present to you chainchoking!

What is it?​

The idea came to me as soon as Gleam mentioned shielding getup attacks. The basic idea is to stand there after a choke and react to what they do. If they roll, choke. If they attack, shield and then choke. There are several characters who can't escape this until they reach the edge. This allows us to rack up damage and then use some other guaranteed followup, preferably an Ftilt or Fsmash if we can guarantee it, when they are near the edge, thus killing them. This is different from the murder choke tech chasing we know and love as Ganon mains. We used to predict what they would do and catch them if we were successful. This removes guessing from the equation by reacting after they have initiated their response.

Chainchoking- Not for Every Ganon
​

Chainchoking is hard. Very hard. You must know every animation of the character if you want a chance to succeed, and even then you need great reflexes. Don't even think about trying it online. I expect that we will all get better at this with practice, to the point where it can give us the advantageous matchups we have been longing for. However, this will still only apply for the few Ganons who are capable of doing this.

To make everything easier, let's have some abbreviations and standards:
GUA- getup attack
Out- roll away from Ganon
In- roll toward Ganon
Up- standing up without a GUA
Easy- can be done in regular speed
Medium- can be done in 1/2 speed
Hard- can be done in 1/4 speed

Note that the difficulty ratings will vary for different people, but it would be nice to have a starting point. With time and practice, characters who start in hard could reach easy. However, "easy" is only compared to the others this works on. It is still very hard.

When and Why?​

This tech is more situational than it seems at first glance. The main limiting factor is the difficulty. Ganon almost always has good options after a choke. Chainchoking is guaranteed in theory, risky in reality (or at least until we are good at it, which nobody currently is). We are so good at attacking after a choke that going for a chainchoke and failing is a huge waste. Chainchoking is the best option in most situations if you can do it, especially on places like Final Destination. However, don't go for the chainchoke if a Dtilt or iDA will get the job done.

This tech has more benefits than you would think. Despite the difficulty, this is worth learning for many reasons. First and foremost, damage. Chokes add up quickly, and since the chainchoke ends near the ledge, they are put in a very bad situation from it. Another benefit is that the chokes refresh all your other moves. As you should know, the game keeps track of the last nine moves you have hit with. We don't care if the choke gets stale, so this is restoring the other moves for basically nothing. Another benefit that should not be overlooked is the affect this has on your opponent. He will get demoralized if he gets choked time and time again with no escape. You are crushing his spirit with this move, and that is an advantage that can't be measured. A frustrated opponent is far more likely to make mistakes than a calm one.

The List​

Currently, everything here is my own personal testing. Therefore, it is not perfect and quite subjective. Even though I have the full cast listed, I still need you guys to test things out for me.

Difficult- Only for the great Ganons

Bowser
Charizard (His In is very short, so you need to back off a bit and choke in the same direction as you would for his other things. You must space this perfectly, so his In does not come too close and his Out does not go too far.)
Diddy Kong (makes a noise when rolling)
Ice Climbers (one must be dead, obviously)
Ivysaur
King Dedede
Kirby (take a very small step away so the first part of his GUA doesn't get you)
Meta Knight
Olimar (the pikmin hide him pretty well)
Pikachu
Pit (you must powershield the GUA)
R.O.B
Sheik (not that it matters)
Snake
Sonic (he makes a noise at the start of his GUA)
Squirtle
Toon Link
Yoshi

Very Difficult- Well... it's possible

Donkey Kong (makes a noise when he rolls)
Fox
Jigglypuff (B-reversal is required for rolls, they start basically the same)
Lucas
Mario
Ness
Peach (must powershield the GUA)

Impossible
If I don't give a reason, the Out goes too far or too fast.

Captain Falcon (GUA ends too quickly after hit)
Falco
Game and Watch (Only impossible if he is on your left. When he is, your cape conceals his mouth, which is the only thing you can use to predict his GUA)
Ganondorf
Ike
Link
Lucario
Luigi
Marth
Samus (GUA ends to quickly after hit)
Wario
Wolf
Zelda (not that we ever fight Zelda anyway >_>)
Zero Suit Samus

Video​

Chainchoking - A Proof of Concept and Introductory Video
DAD made this video that shows what we are talking about. DO NOT say you can chainchoke until you have WATCHED THIS VIDEO!

Click to expand...

DAD's Smash LAB
Type:F****** everything
input:F****** everything
Effect:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214457

Hyperstation's grand thread of Ganon awesomeness. A look in the many aspects of Ganon's game. A must read by all.


Reverse Pivot Grabbing
Type: Grab
Input: Dash backwards, and then instantly grab forward.
Effect: Create a front-facing pivot grab

In most cases if you do it, and your quick but not right on the dot or something. You'll have a bit of latteral movement. However Ganon's grab range is increased drastically over the matter to the point where characters pretty much teleport into his grab. It gets that much of a range boost.

In all sense Ganon will use the same grab he uses in his normal pivot grab, but this time instead of grabbing backwards, he grabs forwards, drastically incresing his grab range on characters and making it easy to connect.



Anti Ledge Gerudo (formerly 'Anti Aerial Ledge') ~found by Mmac
Type: Edge guarding
Input: Short hop Flame Choke on a hanging opponent.
Effect: A couple characters can be grabbed from the ledge with an aerial Flame Choke started over the stage. MetaKnight, Pikachu, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Ness, & Lucas are susceptible. DK, Olimar, Mario, Ice Climbers, Luigi, Game & Watch, Squirtle, and Ivysaur can also be grabbed, but this causes Ganoncide.

Videos: http://files.filefront.com/SSBBGanon.../fileinfo.html

UPDATE: Thanks to the hard work of the members here. It is now possible to safely use this move without risk of falling death. As far as Final Destination goes, if you go to the edge of the stage, and roll back, you will be in a position in which you can can Anti-Ledge Gerudo, but still remain on the ground.


Ganon's DI
Type: DI (Directional Influence)
Input: DI (you should look this up)

Videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zXeRhLEnrM

This video made by Ray Kalm shows the movement of Ganon's DI and what works best to survive being KOed.



Instant Dash Attack
Type: Attack
Input: Dash and immediately press down on the C-stick.
Effect: Sometimes called the iDA, this is pretty much an easier and much faster method of the dash attack which happens to be a prime kill move for Ganon.


Flame Choke Dair
Type: Probable tech chase
Input: Flame Choke->Dair on an opponent who moves near the edge.
Effect: Connected DAirs with prediction-amortized reaction

Wake-up rolls have lag. Flame chokes near the ledge usually make people roll away from the ledge. Pretty much on instinct, nobody wants to get pushed off that edge. So it makes it easier to predict movements. In a lot of cases, near the ledge or not you can still connect a Dair. It's a tech chase brutal galore where anything is possible and stomping faces is of high priority.


Flame Choke Murder Kick ~by Gleam
Type: Tech chase
Input: Flame Choke->Wizard's foot.
Effect: Drastically shortened stock

After many battles, we've seen it is basically 100% guaranteed. Opponents that roll away have too much lag, and its just guaranteed that you will hit them. Great for getting them off the ledge for edgeguarding too. A new stock on Smashville can end with one of these.

Videos: None yet.



Hyperstations Ledge maneuvers and techs
Type: Ledge tactics
Input: See below
Effect: Ganon makes the ledge his lair.

hyperstation said:

I'm sorry in advanced that I won't be able to make a legitimately informative OP.

I got the idea for this thread yesterday when I was in a long series of WiFi matches, during which I realized that arguably the weakest part of my game is the part that occurs between a Ledgegrab and getting onto the stage again. My hope is that we could start an exhaustive, in depth discussion of every possibility that can occur between the ledge and the stage.

I don't intend for this thread to outstay its welcome. I hope to organize all the intel collected herein into the OP, and upon exhausting the list, it could be copied to Swoops' guide or Gleam's list, or whatever; the thread is just a means to an end. So on that note, let's get our hands dirty.

Basic Ledge-to-Stage Options (those which require the press of a button to initiate):

• Get-up attack (A, B, C-stick) - What determines whether you do a kick or a punch?
• Just stand up (Forward on control stick)
• Roll (R, L, Z)
• Jump (Up on control stick, Y, X)

Jump -> Attack Options (those which are a combination of a jump and an aerial):

• Jump -> Aerial Gerudo (Y -> Forward+B)
• Jump -> Wizard Kick (Y -> Down+B)
• Jump -> Rising UAir (Jump -> Up+A)
• Jump -> Rising Fair (Jump -> Forward+A)
• Jump -> Nair (Y -> A)
• Jump -> Dair (Y -> Down+A)
• Jump -> Bair (Jump -> Back+A, while moving inside/behind your opponent)
• Jump -> Flight of Ganon (Jump -> Buffer a ISJR Jump and Down + B at the same time)

I started the list with what I believe are the options that I believe to be most obvious and least necessary of description. With the exception of Jump -> Aerial Gerudo and Jump -> Flight of Ganon - which both require a slightly more refined sense of timing than the others - these are the options which are most readily available and most easily executed.

But really, these weren't the reason I made this topic. I hope to engage in a meta-level discussion about not only "what are the options between the ledge and the stage?" but also "how do we use them?", "what conditions make option A better than option B?", "what are your most reliable techniques?", etc. etc. etc.

For starters, some of the things I personally need clarification on are all of the Ledgedrop -> Aerial onto the stage options. Another topic would be what Swoll discussed and clarified in his topic recently about the Recovery Lag and how it can be avoided, used to your advantage, etc. (I'm pretty clear on all of this now, so I would be fine to post about this when I get home tonight). Another section could be "Stage Scarring". That is, doing an attack under or against the ledge which connects with your opponent on stage (e.g. UAir under Final Dest). So hook me up, guys. I'm in dire need of assistance with this aspect of the game, and it became painfully obvious the other day vs. Salty Kracka who punished me time and time again on my get up techniques (more a factor of his excellent spacing than my sh*tty ledge game, but the point bears repeating).

Click to expand...

Shadow Nataku said:

I think I stressed the importance of how good Ganny's ledgejump game can be in some of my older BrawlDorf posts. In some cases its actually vital to get it down since its sometimes his only way of heavily hurting some of the top tier characetrs. I need to point out some interesting technicalities/extra tidbits.

-I personally prefer a ledgedrop U-Air for ledge clearing. Fastest and goes through stage and stops them coming after me for a spike. To be honest its safer than ledgejumping and its Ganny's fastest move out of grabbing the ledge.

-A ledgejump into Warlock Kick has almost no startup time and keeps the quake+high priority of the aerial Wizkick if done right.

-If you plan on a wizkick recovery or just ledgejumping in general make sure you let go and Side+B the ledge first. Reason being is that your recovery back on stage will oddly adopt the reduced lag state of the sliding Flame Choke onto ledge. If your last move before your recovery was Up+B prepare to have your RCO lag severely punished as the game remembers it.

-If you're planning on clearing the ledge with a UAir, please use downwards ledgedrop before jump+UAir'ing. It gives the attack more range and leaves no vulnerable attack points on Ganon.

-Backwards ledgedrop gives better airtime but it leaves you open to attack and should only be used for edgeguarding recovering enemies or in combination with NAir or a falling FAir.

-If you can ledgejump behind them than do a low BAir or Tipman to ward them off. For ****s and giggles I sometimes do a Reverse Warlock Punch, its not actually a bad option since alot of people aren't sure how to react and simply shield but get pushed off the ledge instead.

-Something to note but a backwards ledgedrop into a jump+Nair turns into a perfect 2 hit combo and can be immediately >+B'd back into a ledgegrab without any drop in height.

-Sometimes the best ledgejump is simply a ledgejump + aerial dodge.

-Never. Ever. Roll or Ledgeattack at high damage %. Ganon gets lag by the bucketload and is grab/smash bait.

Click to expand...

Recovery Carry-Over Glitched Glitch
Type: Exploit of a glitch
Input: Flame choke a ledge, then stand (->) or roll (shield) onto it. Later, Flame choke the next time you jump.
Effect: Ganon has less landing lag than a usual aerial Flame Choke, and this overrides the RCO glitch from his Up-B.

Basically if you do the input mentioned, your flame choke will have less lag on it. Pretty sweet.

Videos: None yet


Super Ganon Jump
Type: Tech
Input: Wizkick and jump at the same time as Ganondorf is landing right as another of his actions ends. e.g., air dodge, aerial, or "Wizkick landing"
Effect: Ganondorf will jump...very very high.

Seen first with this "Wizkick landing" version, Ganondorf has a certain landing out of his grounded Wizkick if the conditions of starting and ending the kick are a certain way. You can act at this time to Super Ganon Jump:

Videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlRdCXMgXo8

The version, considered harder to perform but far more rewarding, involves short hopping then Jump + air dodge (Jumping then immediately air dodging) and at the right area of the ground, pressing Jump+down+B simultaneously.

Videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnA6WSRORlo



Get Up Speed
Type: Data: attacks for other characters
Input: -
Effect: You've probably seen, but paid little attention to the get up attacks on ledges with other characters. Well you will now. I'm not going to make a huge character list but.

1. Bowser

2. Donkey Kong

3. Peach

4. Olimar (To a point perhaps)

All 3-4 of these characters have basically an immediate get up attack on a ledge. This means they produce no start up lag. Quite ironic Bowser being the fattest of all of them has the fasted one. Where as everyone else may not have a slow start up lag, but has a start up nonetheless.

Meta Knight's slow as hell I'll say...ironic again?


Retreating Attacks
Type-Attacks
Input-Aerials while either simultaneously backing away or backing away after immediate execution.
Effect: To allow for spacing and defensive measures. Especially with laggy aerials. Try backing away. If you do a Nair, and immediately back away, you cover the distance needed to hit your opponent, but at the same time back away to avoid short attacks and grabs.

Tipman Bounce Combos
Type: Combos, and some pretty great ones at that.
Input: Whatever it says.
Effect: A few sick combos brought by Blade01 and Swoops.

Blad01 said:

I. The combo

I've discovered a new kind of combo with Dair, that seems to work fine on heavies. I call it the "Bouncing Combo". (EDIT : Bounce Combo is maybe better )

How to do the boucing combo ? It works great on heavies, since they can't jump / attack from a fresh Dair at 0%.
From 0%, you just have to :
1) Dair
2) While he's boucing on the ground, do a Tipman Uair.
3) This will result in a second bounce. After this, the opponent can't do anything but get up normally (without attack). So basically you can do what you want from that.


II. Bouncing Combo possibilities

Let's sum up the possibilities you have with the "Boucing Combo".

• Dair > Tipper Uair (aka Boucing combo) > FSmash (= 52%)
• Bouncing Combo > Flame Choke (37%) > Techchase
• Boucing Combo > Grab
• Boucing Combo > Dair > UAir (63 % !) / Bair (67% !). And this is a true combo !
• Boucing Combo > Dair > USmash... 72% !! It's a true combo, but is DIable.
• Boucing Combo > Anything you want ^_^ (Force palm works too, but is not really useful)
• (Alternative) Boucing Combo > FTilt / Jab > Techchase (Very hard to tech that)

III. Escaping the Combo

• The Dair can be teched. The Uair will probably touch if they just tech (without techrolling), but won't set up good follows-up...
• A lot of the possibilities can be DIed out.

The problem of this combo is that the first Dair can be teched. But if you opponent misses it... He will regret it ;P

IV. The videos

• "Tipman Bouncer Demo" by Swoops.
• "Ganon TB/BC Alternatives" by Z1GMA.

V. The name
We are still searching for a name that could perfectly fit to this combo

• Bouncing Combo (Blad01) : The original name i found. But it's maybe not from a very good English...
• Bounce Combo (Blad01) : This is maybe a better English talk ^^'
• Tipman Bouncer (Swoops) : The name proposed by Swoops for the Combo. I think it doesn't mention the fact this is a "combo", and i focalised on Tipman, but that's still a decent name
• Anyone wants to propose one ?

Click to expand...

SHAD
Type: Approach
Input: Short hop then air dodge.
Effect: An approaching option presented by Jekyll, where you Short Hop Aerial Dodge (SHAD) to get through projectiles, long ranged attacks, and just to get you into a better position. Ganon's fall speed seems to work for him well here, but his top drift speed isn't as hot.


RAR SHFFAC Bair
Type: Tech
Input: Run, turn, jump during the turn, short hop a BAir, and fastfall it into the autocancel.
Effects: Basically your just addng the Revese Aerial Rush (RAR) to the SHFFAC Bair.
You can find out how to do a RAR bair later down on the list.

Videos: none yet.

SHFFAC Bair
Type: Tech
Input: Short hop a Bair, then fast fall.
Effect: You've probably remember SHFFL in Melee (Short Hop Fast Fall L-cancel) Well this basically it. (Short hop Fast fall Auto Cancel) Ganon's bair is his only aerial in which not only can he auto cancel it from a short hop, but after executing the move, he can fast fall without lag. Remember though, you need to attack first before fast falling.

Videos: None yet.


RAR Uair (reverse Aerial Rush Uair)
Type: Tech
Input: Run, turn, jump during the turn, short hop a UAir.
Effect: Allows use of Ganon's tip Uair. Unlike Falcon's Uair, in Brawl, Ganon's UAir hitbubble lingers until the foot comes nearly all the way down, but only on the backside (not at startup). Reversing before UAiring allows use of this hitbubble, which offers frame advantage and in some cases, combos, on even short characters.

Videos: None yet.


Counter Picked Stages
Type: Stage types
Input: Certain stages
Effect: Some stages leave Ganondorf at an advantage, or at the very least, limit his disatvantages. These counterpick stages include.

• Brinstar
  
• Norfair
  
• Delfino Plaza
  
• Pirate ship

FastFall Reverse U-air Edgeguard
Type: Edgeguard
Input: *title pretty much explains it I think*
Effect: Taken most recently from A2ZOMG's recent topic, apparently this is a great edgeguard technique. I'm sure (hoping) that A2ZOMG doesn't mind if I use it here.

A2ZOMG said:

It deserves its own topic.

Like seriously, this is 80% of the time your best option when your opponent is recovering from below. Most of the time it will happen so fast your opponent won't know how to react. The other great part is that it covers a ridiculously huge area making it really hard for your opponent to not get hit. If you hit them into the stage, they will probably get stagespiked and die or the next move they do will be an easy target for your Up-B, which will probably also stagespike them again. Then of course if you hit your opponent away from the stage, they will probably die unless they have an ultra gay recovery.

I think I recently KOed mr kennedy44 this way during my online Ganon tourney. I might have saved that particular replay, so yay.

Click to expand...

True Combos (Tipman Combos)
Type: A list of combos, courtesy of Swoops amazing guide of reverse buffering and stuff
input: *in the effects section*
Effect: Tipman>D-Tilt: Started being guaranteed at 60%, and continued to be guaranteed to at least 100%. Earliest move to be guaranteed. Note: It actually interests me that this is the earliest move to be guaranteed. I would of thought it would be Jab. I want some frame data.

^This is the only one I'm sure of. I'll list the others in somewhat order of what % they become guaranteed.

Tipman>Jab: Think this becomes guaranteed at around 67% and has a small window of being guaranteed.

Tipman>F-Tilt: Oof, not sure. Around 85% I believe, but goes up to around 110% I believe.

Tipman>DA: Not sure at all what percent, but it has a pretty short window I think.

Tipman>WizKick: NOT GUARANTEED

Tipman>Gerudo: NOT GUARANTEED



Aerial Choke Vs. Murder Choke
Type: Contrast
input: Side special / Aerial side special
Effect: Murder choke is better for using follow ups such as D-tilt, F-tilt, Jab and the likes. Aerial choke is better as an approach.


Running Special
Type: Tech
Input: Run, then neutral special (murder punch)
Effect: Ganon cancels his run stop into a neutral special. This is a universal AT. Not as useful for Ganon as...:

Reverse Running Side Special
Type: Running special tech
Input: Enter a side-B, and, while holding B, input the opposite direction very quickly. You can do this out of a run. Alternately, dash, then input a side-B in the opposite direction. You will cancel the dash animation at any point (even if you couldn't dash dance at that point).
Effect: For Ganondorf, and in this case Murder Choke, Ganon will perform the animation as if he was going to murder choke forward, but then quickly turn around and reverse murder choke.

Videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8QZELFbBQQ

Ganon part around 00:23


Murder Cypher Gimp
Type: Gimp
Input: Side Special onto Snake holding Cypher.
Effect: Unlike other recovery gimps, this one is so good that it desearves its own place. If you murder Choke Snake's Up B, his Cypher, the murder choke actually cancels it out. Snake falls to his doom with no jumps back, but you actually get your jumps back and or Up B. Pretty sweet.

Videos: None yet.


Sex Kick
Type: Attack
Input: Second Kick on Nair
Effect: Most people know what this is. A sex kick is an attack that is executed and stays out, while still doing damage. Ganon has some slight sex kick property in the second kick of his Nair.

Videos: None yet.


Footstool Ground Attack

hyperstation said:

Required Reading for Class: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197100 , by Godismyrock

First of all, I hope this is new. I was very excited to find this. I've never come across any information about footstool techs for Ganon before, and after reading Godismyrock's excellent thread (with videos) above, I decided to go to work. Except for use over the edge for the slowest spike KO ever (joke), I don't make much use of footstools in my game, but after reading the above thread last night, I was lying in bed thinking about how ganon might incorporate this tech.

Godismyrock correctly states that in order to use this, a character must have a momentum altering or halting aerial. The most obvious in my mind was Lucario's dair, for instance. In terms of ganon, I obviously thought of the aerial wizard kick...and guess what...it works. It works really well, in fact.

The best testing I've done is on lvl 9 cpus, but I'm nearly confident this is a new true combo for Ganon. The cool down/stun on a footstool is universal, I believe, and every character I've tested it on works flawlessly.

The timing on the move is pretty lenient. The optimal timing is a wizard kick just pixels above the footstooled character's head. This yields 15% damage and pops them upwards, like any aerial wizard kick. However, if you input the wizard kick too late, the character can get a shield out in time. Every time a CPU got its shield out, the quake effect of the wizard kick still got them (under their shield, I suppose).

This seems pretty viable in game. One of the best attributes to ganon's game, tech chasing, could see this incorporated seamlessly. Whenever a character ends up right in front or behind you in a tech chase, double tap jump really quickly and slam down+B, then get back to the chase. The tech seems especially viable at mid-high percentages as the pop-up from the quake will be more significant, keep ganon well spaced during his landing lag.

A final note: watch the video Godismyrock made and look at how you can use it to shut down MK's glide. His glide attack is one of his few KO moves, so there's a chance we can start to limit his options with this. Difficult to do, I imagine, but if one starts to place emphasis on this move, it would become second nature and might in fact act as a good counter to that nasty glide attack...you never know.

P.S. - would you all be interested in a tech video showing correct wiz kick cancelling off stage and on stage, SHFFed fairs and nairs, and this footstool tech? I'll make it if someone will capture the footage for me so I can upload it.

Click to expand...

SHFF Kick/Punch
Type: Tech: retreat/approach? Currently undecided right now.
Input: *See quotes below this move*
Effect:A new tech recently brought to attention by fromundaman. It's situational, but I see it being useful, especially for the Fair.

fromundaman said:

Okay, I'm a little late on this, but oh well.

First off:
Actually... there already is one. Granted, not completely lagless, but if you short hop, do a fair once you reach the top of the jump (approximately, I have a hard time describing exactly when to pull it out), then hold down the moment Ganon shouts/yells/whatever the hell he's doing, then he will come crashing down with his fist. However, if you hold down before he yells, the animation will happen but no damage will be done.
As for strategies, Nair, my new favorite Ganon move. I was experimenting in Training yesterday, and if you do the same thing described above, only with the Nair, you can do a quick kick with almost no landing lag. Also, since you land in a crouch, you can easily follow up with a dtilt to stutter step fsmash at lower percentages. On top of that, the closer you get to the ground before hitting the Nair, the less time it stays out. You can actually make it so the move barely flashes on the screen (It would in that case only even show up as an actual attack if you hit something.) I love it as a way to move forward, as it cancels most projectiles, MK's tornado, and is decent for setting up combos. Also, since most people expect you to attack as soon as Ganon leaves the ground (like when you thunderstorm), they rarely expect a quick potential combo-starting attack as you get back towards the ground.

However, I have only been trying it against comps, so someone try it against an actual player and tell me if that actually works against humans.

(I haven't seen any videos/mentions of this so far, so I'll try to get a video to illustrate what I mean when my friend lets me use his camera.)

Hopefully this turns out to be as good as I'm making it sound... Works well against comps in any case.

Click to expand...

hyperstation said:

from what I can tell, fromundaman isn't completely crazy...at least with nair. If you do a SH nair, you can't buffer into an fsmash, but if you do a SH nair and fast fall as soon as you're able (apex of your jump), you can buffer an fsmash pretty easily. There's still lag, but with the knockback of nair, you should be clear to land the fsmash before your opponent can get to you. I've done very little testing so far, but I'll keep you all posted on what else I figure out.

edit: more info- well, we really need a video to explain this well, but the way in which you know you're fast falling with the correct timing is as follows. As we know the nair has two kicks. We can use the sounds of the specific movements in the air to explain the correct timing.

The timing of a regular SHed nair is this: jump sound, kick 1 sound, kick two sound, landing sound. that's four sound effects total.

The timing of a "correctly" SHFFed nair is this: jump sound, kick one sound, then some hybrid sound of the second kick and the landing sound TOGETHER.

If you SHFF the nair correctly, you can buffer your next move almost immediately after you hit the ground. I've been experimenting with viable followups, and I really like a stutter stepped fsmash. If you connect with either kick of the nair at low to medium percentages (<50% or 60%?) the stutter step will put you within range of your knock back to perhaps land the fsmash.

Another way to tell you're doing this "correctly" is that you'll be able to buffer SHFFed nair into SHFFed nair over and over again. This may also be a viable approach against shorter characters, but it's hard to say.

It's up in the air for me if this has any real competitive usage in real time, but I'm exceedingly optimistic. As for the SHFFed fair, I'm significantly less optimistic. The lag on the SHFFed nair is minimal (relatively speaking) but the SHFFed fair, as far as I can tell, still yields pretty ugly lag. Not to mention, it'd be hard to follow up a fair with anything because if you connect with it, then dat mutha f**** be flyin'!

Side note. I'm also experimenting with SHFFed bair again, and I think I might be getting somewhere. For anyone else testing nair and fair, try bair also, and see what you can get.

More to come later. I'm glad to have something new to experiment with.

Click to expand...

fromundaman said:

Well, as the video I can't seem to upload for some strange video shows, at low percentages, a down tilt is a good follow up, since it has a longer range and thus will hit even if you hit with the sweet spot of the Nair, and, again at low percentages, a stutter stepped F-smash can be used to hit them after that, (though odds are they'll dodge it, so you could use a jab instead, though they can DI out of its range). That or you could go straight to a stutter step Fsmash.

If you're really close (as in you hit with Ganon's thighs, as scary as the thought is), you can follow up with an Usmash. However, if you're that close, odds are you're going to be shield grabbed.



True, but the landing lag becomes part of the move, so while it's still there, if someone tries to hit you (unless they outrange/outprioritize you, they will take damage... at least I think. I'm testing this alone against computers, so it's kind of hard to tell, since they tend to suck.). Also, yeah, you won't really be following it up with anything. However, I like using it around 60+ percent (never before so they *hopefully* don't see it coming) in hopes of getting a kill.



Well, if my friend gets back with his laptop and camera tonight and they don't both conspire with youtube against me, then I'll have the video up tonight (It's not amazing, but it shows what it needs to.).

Click to expand...

Videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcPfWWNm8SE&feature=email


Stage Gimp
Type: Gimp
Input: Any attack that sends an opponent at the edge or bottom edge of a stage.
Effect: Down the list I mentioned that Dark Dive Gimp was a good way to gimp opponents hanging on the edge of the stage due to the position that they are knocked down. Now here's an overall view, basically any attack that sends them at the right angle to the stage edge will send them at a downards angle.

This means, that whatever attack you do, be it the Dark Dive or something else. If it hits them on the very end of the stage, or near the bottom of the edge of the stage, they will be forcily pushed downwards, sometimes at a sharp angle. So just think of this as the rest of the Dark Dive Gimp tech.


Infinite Jumping
Type: Tech
Input: Any short hopped auto canceled aerials, Dair, Uair and Bair. Right as you touch the ground. You can immediately jump again. Do another short hop auto cancel, repeat.
Effect: You may have heard of Bowser's infamous infinte jump Koopa Klaw. The same basic's work for Ganondorf. Infinte Jumping, discovered by another user whose name I can't remember is the art of what I said in the input section.

Basically by doing said input you can constantly jump and attack to your hearts content as long as there is ground beneath you. Ex. You can constantly short hop a Uair.

Videos: None yet

Sweetspot Grab Escape ~by Gleam
Type: Safety
Input: sweetspot Neutral A on shield
Effect: Ganon's jab has a tendency to get grabbed very easily. Here's something, a work in progress that I've done that may help that problem. It invovles the simple steps of spaing and using the sweetspot on Ganondorf's Jab.

While I only tested it on a handful of characters, Bowser, Snake, Donkey Kong, Samus. I found out that if you sweetspot a Perfect shielded Jab, some characters can't grab you. These included the first 3 characters. However Samus was able to regrab Ganondorf which I'm little more than positive that anyone with a rather long, tether like recovery will be able to grab Ganon.

So basically, by doing this, you space yourself out, you add more damage to your attack if it connects and if it is perfect shieled, you will not get shield grabbed.

Videos: None yet.

Priority Issues
Type: Priority
Input: Certain attacks.
Effect: Some characters have attacks with a jackload of priority. Ganon though has ways of getting around thse high priority atttakcs. I also put some attacks that I just felt might be reasonable to know, even if they don't have a lot of priority.

Meta Knight: Neutral B
Solution: Dtilt, ftilt, Fsmash. All of these attacks must hit MK while he’s in his Neutral B. If it hit’s the outside of the MK’s neutral B, it will only clank.

Sometimes its better to just shield against this, but if you ever see one coming at you from far away, at least you know there’s something you can do to stop it.


Snake: Jab
Solution: Jab, Ftilt

Snake’s AAA combo is vicious, there’s no denying that. Luckily however Ganondorf’s Jab and Ftilt both out range and out prioritorize Snake’s Jab. Don’t let that make you think this will make the battle any easier. I wanted to see if I could find anything for his hax Ftilt or Utilt, but I could not.


Donkey Kong: Ftilt
Solution: Fsmash, Dsmash

Few attacks beat Donkey Kong, but for his Ftilt, those are what you can use.


Ike: Jab
Solution: Jab

Ike is a pretty slow character, but his AAA combo is surprisingly quick. Luckily on the punches your jab beats his.


Zelda: Usmash
Solution: Jab, Ftilt, Dash Attack.

Zelda’s Usmash is very good. These attack don’t actually completely outprioritorize her Usmash, but when they do hit at the same time, they cause more damage and knock back.


Pikachu: Dsmash
Solution: Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash

Like Zelda, these attack don’t completely beat Pikachu’s Dsmash, but cause more damage and knock back.


Patience is Virtue
Type: Strategy
Input: ..........*minutes later*...patience.
Effect: As you remember, Ganondorf is a character of defensive and patience and this patience of extreme importance. There will be times where you may get wacked by chaingrabs and combos and hard hitting multiple attacks. Do not attck. Wait, be paitent and always find an opening to deal some extreme damage and soon KOs. This is a basic for all Ganondorf mainers.

Wizkick Cancel
Type: Tech
Input: Roll against the edge of a stage and then Wizard Foot to center.
Effect: Much has been talked about this move, which you can read near the bottom of this head page topic. The wizkick cancel, similar to the Wizard Foot Cancel is the art of doing said input. With it, you will remain momentarily in the air in wihch you can buffer many attacks. It seems to have become an important asset in Ganon's moveset and the potential is still rising.

nair out of wizkick cancel is very useful, being how it has that lingering hit box you end up hitting your opponent a few more extra inches away from the edge. You also still have your second jump and your up-b still at your disposal so recovering is no problem i find this version of gimping just as useful as the tippman spike, its also more unpredictable. It's not as situational as it sounds either because a f-tilt from center stage on any neutral stage will send your opponent flying at a downward horizontal angle placing them exactly where you want them to be for this to work.

Videos: None yet.


Unpredictablity
Type: Battle plan...or something.
Input: Mixing up anything.
Effect: Like the title suggests, don't be predictable. Mix anything and everything up. Don't repeat thing often or else your opponent will catch on and you will be punished. The more unpredictable you are, the better chances you have a winning.


Mindgames and Magic
Type: Magic obviously...dark magic.
Input: *Pulls rabbit out of boot*
Effect: Using Mindgames and baiting to get your oponent into a position that makes it easy to attack him. Mindgames are important to Ganon's game. Throw an attack in, any fast executing attack that you know won't have the distance to hit your opponen but still close enough. More than likely your opponent will be compelled to shield or dodge. Which thus puts them into an open positon for something like a Flame Choke.

Videos: None yet.

Approaching
Type: Approach
Input: Approaching a character
Effect: Ganondorf is always presented with the case of not being able to approach well. Now when I think of Ganon not being able to approach I imagine Falco at the end of Final Destination spamming his lasers to no end. At any case, Ganon is ground character. You approach from the ground, not the air.

Videos: None yet.



Aerials
Type: Aerials...
Input: Aerial attacks and anything else relating to the air.
Effect: Seriously, if Ganon could approach worth crap in the air he'd be awesome. Ganon's aerials are just sick. 3 auto cancels, 1 full hop cancel, tip man spike, RAR bair. His amazing Dair. You name it, when it comes to the attacks Ganon's aerials rock. Use them, use the attack. They're quick, they're lagless, they're just plain out great.

Videos: None yet.


Dark Dive Gimp
Type: Ledge Gimp
Input: Dark Dive on an opponent who is hanging on the edge.
Effect: If you use the Dark Dive on an opponent without invinciblity frames hanging on the edge, they will be forcibly pushed downwards. This usually spells instant doom on characters who have average to terrible recoveries. This works also if you manage to grab them while retrning to the stage. The force of the explosion will send them upwards, hitting the edge and flying right back down to their easily possible doom.

Videos: None yet.

Don't be Stupid (DBS)
Type: Intelligence
input: Doing the right thing.
Effect: This is just here for all the noobs as any decently intelligent person will know this. People...you aren't going to hit S*** with a reverse warlock punch. Think about your moves, think before you decide to just throw out something.


Demonic Step
Type: Tech/slide
Input: Hold shield after a spotdodge.
Effect: Causes Ganon to slide forward juuust a little bit (very miniscule amount) after a spotdodge.

He can also perform a Pit-style "Super Slide Step", as well.
Type: Tech/slide movement
Input: Hold [back] during a spotdodge (to buffer it), then after you start to get out of the spotdodge, hold [forward].
Effect: Ganon slides forward while pivoting backwards, then continues to slide while turning around to face forward. If you don't hold forward, Ganon will slide in the direction the spotdodge was facing, then step backwards, which is nice for counter-attacking some opponents.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181639 <-- FD's thread on testing
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180374 <-- the first thread that brought it up as a focus afaik

Disjointed Hitboxes

So, what does this mean? Well...

- Fsmash has a CRAZY disjointed hitbox. It's pretty awesome. Don't forget you can angle it, too.
- Dair has disjoints on the side (but most of us knew this already).
- All of the Kick's purple smoke is hitbox, potentially being a sidestep punisher.

So, which moves have the better range?

Horizontal:
1. Murder Kick
2. Dash Attack
3. Murder Choke
4. Utilt
5. Stutter stepped Fsmash
6. Fsmash
7. Dtilt
8. Jab
9. Dsmash hit 2.
10. Dsmash hit 1
11. Ftilt
12. Quake
13. Running grab
13. Usmash
15. Grab


Videos: Videos? You don't need videos for this!


Dodging and Rolling
Type: Dodges and rolls obviously...
Input: Dodge=Hold Shield button--->Press analong stick down.
Rolling=Hold shield, press analong stick right or left.
Effect: A prime imortance to any player are the rolls and dodges. As for I as I know, dodges are meant for evading an attack with enough lag at the end to allow for a counter attack. So while I don't expect any decent person to do this, don't try dodging between jabs.

Rolling should be used at spacing yourself away from your opponent. Never roll in front of your foe, you'll be asking for a face full of F-smash really.


Videos: None yet.

Grabs Are Good (GAG)
Type: Grabs
Input: Z button...the grab button.
Effect: As you will soon/ have soon read. Ganon's grab are now becoming a pretty important part of his game now. Ganon has the worst grab range in the game, and if he doesn't...it still sucks. However you can do many things with Ganon's grabs. Check out some of the Release Grabs and combos you can do with your grabs. Own some people...


D-throw--->Stutter Step Fsmash.
Type: Potential Combo
input: D-throw---->Stutter step Fsmash.
Effect: The characters that can be hit by this are
Marth
MK
DDD
Olimar
Link
DK
Diddy
G&W
Sonic
Falco
Wolf
CF
Squirtle
Ivysaur

After you down throw, you need to immediately Sutter step Fsmash once you get control of Ganon. Even a few bits of lag can ruin this potential combo. However, if your are quick, its devestating.

Videos: None yet.


Edgeguarding
Type: Edgeguard
Input:...Guard the edge...?
Effect: Edgeguard like your life freaking depending on it. Once you knock someone off, edgeguard them and show them what its like to get hit by a bus full of fat people. Ganon thrive on Edgeguardng and he's pretty good at it.

Videos: None yet.



Ganoncide, Lavacide and Watercide
Type: Suicide/...murdercide?
Input: Aerial forward B over lava, water, or just an empty space.
Effect: One of Ganon's most well known techniques that involve catching an opponent in mid air away from the stage with Flame Choke and suiciding.

Even better though, Ganon owns levels like Brinstar, Norfair and any level with water. This is because if you Ganoncide into one of these levels, your opponent gets KOed in the lava/water, but you survive.

However

You don't kill a person when dropping them in the water with Gerudo. In fact, you take them down with you and the animation is canceled, dropping them in the water first, so they get out sooner. It's pretty risky to try, and someone with a spike can potentially get a free kill on you.


Infinte Release Grab (Wario only)
Type:*title says it all*
Input: Grab Wario, and let him escape.
Effect: Wario has a longer recovery time. If your skilled enough you can actually regrab him again and again. But a more used option is to use an angled Fsmash or Usmash. This is great because if you can grab Wario, you can instantly KO him as early as 100% from the other side of a stage. (So just imagine how early you could KO him if you have him on the ledge)

Koskinator has found even more grab release options

Uair
Nair
Fair
Dair
Up B from the ground
Wiz kick from the ground
Hyphen Upsmash

All of these can connect on Wario on a grab.

Videos: None yet.

Dedede Combo (King Dedede only)[/B]
Type: Combo
input: Dthrow King Dedede twice and either end it there with an Fsmash, Dash attack or Wizards Foot.
Effect: Recently found by Devil7, this is a work in progress in which I'm probably going to need a video to fully explain how well this works. But if this does completely work, yep...you just got Dedede up to 30-45% plus. Take that you **** Chaingrabber!

Videos: Comming Soon hopefully.

Foxtrotting
Type: Running Tech
Input: constantly press the analong stick so that Ganondorf basically does the lunging movement in his run, but not the full set up.
Effect: Foxtrotting is the art of constantly pressing analong stick in the direction that you want to move a character. With this, Ganon apparently is able to cover more distance in a shorter amount of time. Now honestly, I put this in for those who cry over "AH, GANON IS SO SLOW!" Running speed really doesn't mean anything and it increases the chance of tripping. However, if you want a speed up, there it is.

Videos: None yet


Freeze Sprinting
Type: Running tech
Input: Press and hold the analong stick in whichever direction you want. While running, slightly press the analong stick away from the direction you want to run. So if your running to the right...slightly push the analog stick left.
Effect: Ganondorf will keep his running animation, but it will have slowed down by a good degree. You could perhaps use this to surprise people with an unexpected and fast Dash attack or Wizards' Foot. However, this may just turn out to be like the "Murder Quake." Something you can do, but prove absolutely useless in the long run.

Videos: None yet.


Horizontal Momentum Attacks
Type: Attack direction
Input: Any with a horizontal momentun on impact.
Effect: A very good thing to do with Ganon, is try using attacks that send opponents at a horizontal to low angle. This is because the lower an attack sends an opponent, the less chance there is of them being able to recovery. A prime example would be Ganon's F-tilt. F-tilt is awesome not only because it's SPARTA!!, but because it's powerful, quick, *slightly* disjointed, decent reach and and sends people at a horizontal angle. Thus it can really screw people with crappy recoveries like Ike.

Videos: None yet.


IASA
Type: Move property
Input: Any move with IASA properties.
Effect: Moves like Usmash have IASA properties. IASA stands for Interupt As Soon As. This means that moves like the Usmash can be canceled into another attack before that attack actually ends.

Videos: None yet


Ledge Dash Attack
Type: Attack
Input: Dash attack near a ledge.
Effect: This was actually something I discovered, or well mentioned a while ago. It involves hitting certain characters who are hanging over the edge without Invincibilty Frames. Thus forcing certain character to act quickly, and sometimes leaving them no room to actually think of something.

There are a few characters who can be hit by a Dash attack while hanging on a ledge without invincibility frames.

:Mario:

:Donkey Kong:

:Lucas:

:Bowser:

:Ness:

ikachu:

:Game and Watch:

:Olimar:

:Meta Knight:

Jigglypuff:

:Yoshi:

:Charizard:

Some of these characters have different trajectories on different levels, and on a slightly interesting note. If you can connect this on Olimar in Battlefield. You can litterally KO him as low as 40%. NOw this isn't 100% guaranteed, but its possible and it gives you more potential with Ganondorf.

Videos- None yet.


Ledge Dtilt
Type: Attack
Input: Dtilt over a ledge.
Effect: You can hit many characters hanging on the ledge with Ganondorf’s Dtilt.

Mario

Donkey Kong

Luigi

Kirby

Pikachu

Game and Watch

Meta Knight

Falco

Squirtle

Ivysar

Charizard

Peach

Yoshi

Ice Climbers

King DeDeDe

Lucario

Ness

Bowser

Wario

Toon Link

R.O.B.

Jigglypuff

Lucas

Olimar

-------------------------

All of these characters can be hit by Ganondorf’s Dtilt when hanging on a ledge without invincibility frames. There were some characters like Ike who could only be hit during a certain spot and so, felt unnecessary to add him and others in.

The pros of using this instead of a Dash Attack is:

1.It’s faster

2. Less lag, so less punishable.

3. While the range may not be as good as the Dash attack, its still very good.

More characters are hit by this attack, thus adding to its usefulness.

Like Ledge Dash Attack, don’t just throw one in, but force your opponent into a move and punish their mistakes.

Videos: None yet


Mine Exploder (Name given unless someone wants to give me a better one)
Type:N/A (not sure what this is, its lol for sure.)
Input: Use Utilt on a mine (Dsmash) that Snake uses.
effect: The wind affect on Ganondorf's Utilt will actually explode Snake's mines. Now when I first read about this, I didn't think much about it. But now that I've come to it, it may prove more useful in a Snake mach. The wind affect on the Utilt comes instantly out, plus it spaces Ganondorf out from his enemies. Perhaps this can help render Snake's mines a little less useful, and potentially limiting his mindgame potential. (If only by a little)

Videos: None yet.

Murder Quake/Force Palm
Type:Tech
Input:short hop and before you even leave the ground, Down B.
Effect: Ganondorf will lean down as a shockwave escapes him. This is Ganondorfs quickest attack, yet the lag on it is quite horrendous. Its usually not a very good move overall but it is there.

Videos- None yet.

Out of Shield Options
Type:Doing something out of a shield
Input:Anything you can do while shielding.
Effect: Something every character (except Yoshi perhaps) can do. Ganondorf can jump and Up B out of a shield (to name a few.) This basically brings out your mind games and potential when playing as Ganondorf. Its alwasy good to know your out of shield options and when to use them.

Videos: None yet.

Perfect Shielding
Type: Shield
Input:Shielding exactly when an attack hits so that it clanks.
Effect: While this is certainly not limited to Ganon, as anyone else can perfect shield as well. It is of extreme importance to Ganondorf. Since Ganon has to remain very defense, having a good defense is always good and if you can perfect Perfect Shielding, you can have battles in the bag.

Videos: None yet (But trust me...you'll see it)


Phantom Ganon
Type: Specific skill
input: Certain aerials while hanging on ledges.
Effect: A quirky name I gave in which you use aerials that can pass through the stage to hit the opponent. Much like the Uair one. Nair, Uair, Flame Choke. Use it.

Pivot Grabbing
Type: Grab
Input:Run, turn around while quickly pressing the grab button.
Effect: With this, you can quickly turn around and grab your opponent to do as you please. Not only that, but there's more range in the Pivot Grab than in a regular grab.

Videos: None yet.


Projectiles
Type: projectile
Input: STUPID LASERS!!
Effect: Considered the Anchiles (sp) Heel of Ganon. Projectiles are actually not as bad as people make them out to be. Falco, Pit, Dedede will honestly be the worst you'll ever face, though I do give an honorable mention to Toon Link. Everyone else you should have little problems with, but if you do...here are some things to help you out.

It makes me wonder why people think projectiles are so bad to Ganon. If your Falco or one of the others I mentioned, yes...they're B****. But others...no.

1. Dodge. Simple...probabably not very effective.

2. Shield, power shield, most affective way and easiest.

3. Punch them. The most ****** way.

4. Get hit anyways...and then own their ***** with your fist of unjustice.

Videos: None yet.


Projectile Control
Type: Control over projctiles
Input: Grab a projectile.
Effect: Ganon may not have a projectile, but there are projectiles that he can grab.

Bananas

Turnips

Bombs

These are just a few that you can grab. Use them, wreck characters with their own attacks. It's quite scary when you've got a heavyweight with a projectile and it really brings out the best in Ganon.

Videos: None yet.

Priority
Type: Priority, what else.
Input: Any attack.
Effect: Priority is the affect in which if two attacks hit at the same time, the one with the most priority will hit the character, while the one with less priority wil not hit the target. Attacks with disjointed hitboxes are considered to have better priority than most, this is why sword users have pretty good priority. Ganon is usually presented of having averager-to good priority. The good ones being F-smash, D-tilt, Neutral A, F-tilt, flame choke and the Upper cut on the Dark Dive.

Videos: None yet, none really needed to be honest.


Punishing
Type: Punisher...>_>
Input: Punish mistakes
Effect: Ganondorf is a character who has to play very defensively and wait for the opponent to make a mistake. This is a bad thing since Ganondorf can rarely get on the offenseive and put the match completley in his control. However when Ganon makes a hit...it counts. It can mean the difference between a win and a lose. Which makes Ganon very dangerous. Basically, be defensive and punish mistakes.

Videos: Any will do really...


RAR Bair
Type:Tech/approach (not sure really)
Input: Run forward, turn in the opposite direction and immediately jump. While jump perform a Bair.
Effect: Reverse Aerial Rush Bair. This basically allows you to perform a Bair while still moving in your intended direction. Ganon's Bair is also beastly, its got deceptive range and amazing power.

Videos: None yet.

Recovery Shield Glitch
Type: Glitch
Input: jump while hanging on the ledge after recovering without sweetspotting the ledge and air dodge.
Effect: For some reason, not just for Ganondorf. If you try to shield after air dodging a none sweetspotted recovery, there will be lag before your shield comes out. So its wise to know what to do.

Videos: None yet.


Tech Chasing
Type*Title says all again*
Inputredict your opponents movement while using Flame Chokes.
Effect: Ganon, despite his many flaws, has an amazing tech chasing game. By predicting and following your opponents rolls and get ups. You can actually bombard them with several Flame Chokes if your good enough.

Videos: None yet.


Thunderstorming (lagless Dair)
Type: Tech
input: Short hop, and immediately Dair without fast falling. The easiest way imo to do it, is to use the X or Y button to jump and the C-stick to attack. So jump and immediatey press the C-stick down.
Effect: Ganondorf will have zero landing lag on his Dair. This is perhaps Ganon's best move and is perhaps his most used too. It is also possible to do a double dair this way, racking up damage twice as high.

Videos: None specifically for this (but watch any and you'll see it plenty of times)

Dair---->Usmash Combo
Type: Combo
Input:Short hop Dair to Usmash at low damages.
Effect: If connected, you can actually bring your opponent up to 50% damage. This is perhaps Ganon's truest combo. If you connect a double Dair, you can get their damage even higher.

Videos: None yet

Dair--->Usmash---->Dark Dive Combo
Type: Potential Combo
Input: Same thing as the Dair---->Usmash, but with an up B at the end.
Effect: While this isn't 100% gauranteed, some large characters like Bowser can be succeptiple for an Up after the Dair----> Usmash Combo. Racking up damage in the process.

Videos: None yet.


Release Grab (Lucas)
Type: Grab combo
Input: Grab, let Lucas escape, and follow it up with another attack.
Effect: Lucas has a low recovery time when escaping a grab. If he mearly breaks away from you, meaning he moves back a few bit, you can actually use a Neutral A before he can so much as shield. I only did a Neutral A, it might be possible to do an Ftilt. If he jumps away, you can use a Wizards Foot.

The second one is a bit harder to pull off. I tried putting the C-stick on special and I was able to his Lucas without flaw everytime. Now nobody wants to change the C-stick from smash to special so basically you need to do a Wizard foot immediately after you gain control of Ganon once Lucas escapes. Not only that, but you can't have the crouch animation. You need to instantly use the Wizards Foot.

"After air release over the stage, it is possible to get a free DA, but the timing is pretty difficult. A lot of the time you'll get the weak hit of it, but it sets up nice.

Another thing I found which looks so awesome, is air release off the stage into a walk off f-air o.O. I haven't got the timing down to where I can do it farther away from the edge, but when you're decently close you can get this and it kills so **** early that it's not even funny. Looks sooooo amazing." -Swoops


Videos: None yet.


Release Grab (Ness)
Type: Grab Combo
Input: Release Grab Ness then follow up with an attack.
Effect: Pretty much the same thing as Lucas. Though unlike Lucas if Ness jumps away you can't do anything. But if he mearly breaks away from Ganon, you can do a Neutral A attack like you can with Lucas.

Videos: None yet.


Release Grab (Meta Knight)
Type: Grab combo
input:Release grab---->Wizard Foot.
Effect: Like Lucas, MK has a longer recovery time from a release grab meaning you can connect a wizard foot to him. Which anything that can help Ganon againt MK is good.

Videos: None yet


Release Grab (Squirtle)
type: Grab Combo
Input: Release Grab---> Wizard Foot
Effect: Just like MK, squirtle has a longer recovery time when jumping out of a release grab. Which once again means you can wack him one with a Wizard Foot.

Videos: None yet.


Shield Walking

This is very easy to do and you will most likely get it almost right the first time.

What you do is tilt the control stick diagonally up (also works with left/right, but differently, sometimes you will do the Shield Walk and sometimes you'll stop in your tracks). Tap Jump doesn't need to be off. When you do this, simply tap R as portrayed in the video and you should be doing the Shield Walk. If you time this well, you can get from the left to the right side of Smashville when your shield breaks.

Obviously, this helps a lot for approaching against projectile spammers (most notably Falco). Of course you shouldn't approach with this alone, use your mindgames to mix it up. This is still helpful, though, since Shield Dashing (which is the origin of this) isn't fast enough to always work against the faster spammers among us.

Ways to mix it up:
- Use this then pop out with your dash attack/Murder Kick.
- Use this with Demonic Step.
- Use this with... any attack, really. You're walking, you can do anything out of it. Use your imagination.

Videos: http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPOlT0W_Ncg



Lagless Short Hop Fair/Nair
Type: A short hopped Fair (impossible!) and or Nair.
Input: On stages like Battlefield, Fair or Nair off one of the floating platforms.
Effect: On platforms like those in Battlefiled, you can short hop a Nair, and full hop a Fair. At the top of Battlefield you can short hop a Fair (meaning you have to land form the top to the bottom.) This works on basically any stage with platforms and is one of the few ways that you can use a short hop Fair, affectively or not.

Videos: None yet



Screw Recoveries
Type: Messing up recoveries
Input: Anything to screw someone elses recovery
Effect: Some characters like Link and Bowser have recoveries that plain out suck. Use this to your advantage. Use your attacs like F-tilt that send opponents at downwards angle. Ganon owns against people who can't recover worth crap. Go for the ledge, if your opponent has a tether recovery, they're screwed.

Videos: None yet.


Spacing
Type: Spacing
Input: Spacng yourself against other characters.
Effect: Ganon has amazing range, especially for a character who doesn't carry a weapon around. So this means that with practive you can and should easily space yourself against you and your opponent. Attacking from a distance, great against character whose reach sucks.

Videos: None yet.


Sweetspoted Attacks
Type: Sweetspot
Input: certain part of an attack.
Effect: Some of Ganon's attacks have sweetspots to them. This means they do more damage/knockback one side of an attack they they would in another. One example is Ganondorf's Neutral A. If you mearly hit with the palm inwards...it does it's usual damage. But if you hit with the very outside of the palm, you get an extra bit of damage onit. Like one point I think nothing much.

However, whenever you can use your sweetspots, the stronger your attacks, the better. Check out FD's disjointed hitboxes to see more on this.

Videos: None yet.


Stutter Step Fsmash
Type:Tech/Spacing Tech
Inputress the analog stick in the opposite direction in which you want to use the Fsmash, and then immediately press the C-stick in the direction you originally wanted to use the Fsmash.
Effect: This will cause Ganondorf to move forward slightly before executing the Fsmash. Thus giving Ganon more reach on his Fsmash.

1st stutter step (least distance gained)
Press right on the control stick then press right on the c-stick very quickly.

2nd stutter step (middle distance) (this is the one I listed)
press left on the control stick then press right on the c-stick.

3rd stutter step (most distance gained)
quickly press right on the control stick then left on the control stick then right on the c-stick

Tipman Spike
Type:Gimp spike
Input: Hit the opponent with the end of Ganondorf's Uair.
Effect: The opponent will be sently downwards. Great for gimping recoveries.

Videos: None yet.


Usmash--->Dair----->Usmash
Type: Potential Combo
input: Usmash, or sliding Usmash an opponent at low damage. Then short hop Dair, then another Usmash.
Effect: This is a brutal potentil Combo that only works at very low damage, and works on large characters like Bowser and King Dedede.


Utilt Tactics
Type: Move
Input: Utilt at certain times
Effect: In Melee, Utilt was horrible. Way too much lag to be of any use. Now in Brawl, while you certainly won't be wacking people around daily with it, it has improved by quit a bit. In fact, it may be one of his most improved moves, not in the move alone, but its overall potential. Here a few things you can do with Utilt.

1. Mine Exploder (Already explained this one above)

2. Edgeguarding. Utilt is a surprisingly good edgeguard technique. The wind affect can sometimes catch opponents off guard and it spaces you out well from being countered attacked.

3. Gimping. Utilt is great at screwing up some recoveries like Ike's Side B.

Videos: None yet.


Wizard Foot Cancel
Type: Tech
Input: Use Ganondorf's wizard foot so that it ends just off the stage.
Effect: Ganondorf will have no lag, can immediately do any aerial attack.

Videos: None yet.

Wizard Foot Combo
Typeseudo Combo
Input:Fthrow or Btrhow at low damages at the edge of a stage and then use the Wizard Foot.
Effect:This is not 100% fool proof, but it does have its uses. For one it can really screw up characters like Link whose recovery is so bad that they practically have to jump soon when they're thrown of the edge. Such a combo can literally kill Link or any character with a horrible recovery if it connects.

Videos: None that I've noticed.

Wizard Foot Recovery
Type: Recovery
Input: Down B while off the stage.
Effect: In Melee, Ganondorf was able to double jump, Down B, and then Up B while off the stage. This isn't the case in Brawl anymore. However if you didn't use yoru double jump, you can still jump once, Down B and then Up B. Good for getting that extra distace that you may need.

*New tech*

We all know that if you Wizkick Ganon toward the ledge at just the right distance, it cancels and lets him do an aerial. Quite some time ago, Deity accidentally did something similar, but he did it in the middle of the stage. It isn't random and works on most stages as far as he knows, but it's rather situational. Any place with a level ledge will do.

Just roll backward against the edge of the stage then hit DownB. Ganondorf Wizkicks toward the center of the stage, but doesn't have his normal ending lag - he rolls to a stop as though you Wizkicked off the ledge. This puts him into the air for just an instant instead of on the floor. The only use Deity has been able to give to this is to pivot-Murder Choke a spotdodger, or just use a normal Choke on someone who rolled away. It doesn't seem very well known, and it comes out very quickly so it usually hits. Hitting DownB again does an automatic Murder Quake, but it's application would be extremely situational, even against a pants-on-head ******** opponent.

Deity doesn't know if any of Ganon's aerials come out fast enough for a hitbox to come up before he hits the ground (MAYBE Bair), but maybe someone can make something of this~

hyperstation said:

Two things. First, you've discovered something great here. I don't think this should be dismissed as quickly as you're brushing it aside. I have to say though, it's really hard for me to take you seriously talking in the third person. You're saying something relatively intelligent, yet you're demeaning yourself by speaking like that. Don't do that to yourself...have some respect.

Anyway, this move has big potential and I'm making it my mission to unpack everything it's got. I suggest we all do the same, because this could add a big buff to Ganon's spacing game and mindgame...uh...game. I just did about half an hour of testing on it. First of all, there is no move that can come out before the roll stops and ganon touches down. That doesn't matter though, because it's very easy to jump out of the rolling animation (in fact, I think you can buffer the jump right after Ganon transitions from slide to roll). Out of the jump, you can do any aerial you'd be able to safely pull off with a single short hop or full hop...so pretty much anything but a lagless fair.

Second, all the moves can be buffered and reverse buffered just as one would expect out of a regular jump. Nair might be an exception to this rule as the Swoops' "double nair to (reverse) buffer" requires the second nair to get a lagless landing. However, it's possible that we can get a second jump after the first aerial, but I was not able to do it in my minimal testing. Though, I somehow doubt it's possible due to these follow-ups remaining consistent with all the properties of the roll-out animation of a lag canceled wizard's foot over the edge. You can still do all of your favorites, however: thunderstorming, using dair/jab/ftilt/utilt/fsmash as a buffered follow up.

Third: most all of my testing was done on a jump straight up out of the roll animation. However, if one holds forward or back and then jumps with the same timing, you jump out of the roll out at a 45 degree angle (give or take). THIS. IS. AWESOME. Think of the implications. Here's two scenarios I just thought of, but I think this is just the beginning:

• Say your opponent side steps or shields and you slide past him...tilt the stick back, jump out, then take your pick depending on where the opponent is: Bair, Dair, Uair, down B, aerial murder choke...and (i'm assuming now) you can (reverse) buffer all of it. So sweet.
• Perhaps your opponent is on the other side of the stage. Wiz kick -> jump out of the roll while holding forward -> down B, dair, fair, nair, uair, aerial choke slame...you get the idea. He's a nasty boy.

Now crack the whip you lordly brutes...let's figure out what this thing can do. Can we get a second jump? platform canceling after the jump? Which levels does it work on? Do any levels give a special property to the jump (like for instance the dip in the middle of yoshi's island or halberd)? Let's bring some fresh legs to this tech. We're getting to a point where I'm really feeling like Ganon is going to start coming into his own competitively. In order to accelerate the growth of his metagame, we need more eyes and thumbs on every little tidbit of intel that comes out of this community.

Click to expand...

hyperstation said:

A little more specific information on the mid stage wizard kick cancel (anyone got a better name?):

First, as I suspected, double jumps are a no no. too bad.

Now, a stage list. I only tested stages that are in some way part of tournament play.

Stages on which all ledges cancel the wizard kick

1. Final Destination
2. Battle Field
3. Frigate Orpheon
4. Smashville

Stages on which some ledges cancel the wizard kick

1. Luigi's Mansion - Level 1 and Level 2 always work. Level 3 is picky (***)
2. Pirate Ship - Right side of the ship ONLY
3. Pokemon Stadium 2 - ONLY the stadium works. No elemental stages.
4. Castle Siege - Right side of first stage of Castle Siege ONLY
5. Corneria - Off the top of the wing ONLY
6. Delfino - Left side of the platform with umbrellas on it during the part of Delfino that has the river/canal going through it ONLY. Main floating stage is picky (***)

Stages on which no ledges cancel the wizard kick

1. Halberd
2. Yoshi's Island
3. Lylat Cruise
4. Pictochat

Two competition stages aren't listed. Norfair is missing because no platform on that level is wide enough for this move to even be possible. Pokemon Stadium 1 is missing cause my data died a month or so ago and I haven't unlocked it. PS1 is broken anyway...glitchy ledges. If someone wants to get the data for PS1, that would be great, otherwise, who cares.

(***) - stages marked with this means that there is some witchery going on with the ledge that makes it inconsistent from test to test. Both the main platform on Delfino and the third floor of Luigi's Mansion are possessed. I have a few theories as to why it works sometimes and other times doesn't, but nothing of merit so far. I should mention that one time on Delfino I SDed because I did the wizard kick cancel as the platform was rising...I fell through the floor and died. Until something more concrete is discovered to understand why the cancel works sometimes and why it doesn't others, I suggest not screwing with it on Delfino...

Click to expand...

QUOTE=x_Deity_x;5401130]Norfair
This cancel works on the middle two platforms of Norfair, as long as you space yourself properly and the roll occurs over the opposite platform.


Delfino
The section where the middle area is ground covered by water with a canoe in the background - to the left is solid ground with a platform over it, and further left is deep water. Just past that is more solid ground. You can Wizkick Cancel from that ground to the area separating to the two water regions.

The area where there are three pillars of rock with grass on top of them, all surrounded by water - you can Wizkick Cancel between any two adjacent platforms. o_o; Didn't expect that, since one is raised higher.

When fighting atop the building that faces the giant Shine Sprite, you can DownB off of the center rise and Cancel into an aerial...it's a little higher than the norm, but it could prove useful.

When travelling between battle areas, one of the platform configurations is somewhat like that of Battlefield, except that the two outer platforms are tilted inward - you can Wizkick between these two platforms and get the cancel effect.

There are a lot of different areas, so if someone sees something Deity missed, do point it out~


Frigate Orpheon
You can Wizkick Cancel from the rising/lowering platform to the right over to the stationary platform on the left, but you can't do it from the stationary platform over to the moving one. =/ At least, Deity couldn't...Ganon fell through it each time, and only landed on the platform because he used his jump.


Pokemon Stadium 1
The cancel works twixt the two normal platforms, and on both ledges~

It works on the right ledge with the Rocky formation setting...not the left, obviously.

Same goes for the Water setting - right ledge only.

The cancel doesn't work on the ledges of the Plant setting, but you can do the traditional Edge Wizkick Cancel between the lower middle platform and the tree branch. =O Ganon's animation ends and instantly lets him do an aerial as he lands. Not much room, though...


Pokemon Stadium 2
The cancel works twixt the two normal platforms.

On the Earth/Rock/whatever stage, you can Wizkick between the left passable platform and the lower of the two on the right, and you can do the same back the other way. Furthermore, Wizkicking up the left side of that mound of dirt automatically cancels the Wizkick on the lower of the two right platforms.

When using DownB on the right platform, Ganon will follow the contour of the dirt mound instead of passing over it unless you use the move on the slanted edge of the platform, so the spacing is a little strict.


That's all Deity checked for now...not sure how useful it'll be, but there it is.[/QUOTE]

---
---


MOVESET ANALOGY

1) F-tilt

Flying Dutchman said:

Ftilt... Armor Crusher, or Sparta Kick, if you will. It's a move that apparently needs saving. Spamming it will cause it's killing power to decline. If it's saved, it'll send your opponent right into a hard to recover corner, one that is really hard or impossible to recover from with some characters (Ike and Link come to mind). However, it's other options are limited and best left to other moves.

If you want an 'out of my face'-move, use Jab. If you want a poke, use dtilt. Ftilt is used for kills and/or heavy damage. Can be used out of FC for edgeguarding and/or kills. It has the least range of all the tilts, and the second highest-killing power besides utilt (for tilts anyway...).

Click to expand...

2) Jab

hyperstation said:

Jab is ganon's best option for side-step/shield battles. It comes out quick and stays out just long enough that if a fighter enters the jab out of it's side-step, there's a chance it will still connect. One of ganon's biggest assets for his spacing game. It helps get people out of your face with it's suitable knock back. It can be buffered or used as a buffer for another move. dair>jab, uair>jab, neutral air>jab, rising double jump fair>jab, jab>jab, dtilt>jab, ftilt>jab...all buffered. Jabbing is an essential part of any good ganon player's style. It's almost an instinctual "go-to" move to get aggressive approachers out of your space, and often one jab is all that's necessary to reverse the dominance of a match; it can provide the opening for ganon to go from defense to offense.

Click to expand...

Shadow Nataku said:

I actually can see why some consider it nerfed from Melee and I agree actually. The main problem I find with the jab in Brawl is its VERY easy to grab Ganon out of.

Shield and grab after he hits, it almost always lands due to the minimal knockback. The original in Melee came out incredibly fast but it also finished fast giving you time to react, Brawl version comes out fast with abit more power but it stays out abit longer. Considering how easy it is to powershield in Brawl along with how it negates any type of knockback or lag almost using it excessively gives your opponent a free grab often.

On the other hand it is an important part of Ganny's spacing game and his fastest move I believe but really Ganny does actually have better spacing options available believe or not. The jab is worthless against short characters too which are the ones Ganny usually wants a breather against.

A decent move but to be used sparingly and on light short characters theres almost always a better option.

Click to expand...

4) D-tilt

A2ZOMG said:

D-tilt is one of Ganon's best attacks IMO.

Great range and comes out fast. The priority on this attack is ridiculous too and it will beat all sorts of disjointed hitboxes if you space it right. This attack is great from a Flame choke, either for dealing damage, or for killing people.

Click to expand...

Shadow Nataku said:

DTilt is one of the most important moves in Ganny's repetoir, its one of his only means of hitting shorter characters. Its a fantastic launcher move, all of Ganny's strongest tilt attacks are his aerials so any move which can act as a launcher is important. On top of that it setsup opponents for a multitude of other moves like an immediate tilt afterwards. (I'm reluctant to say 'combo' since there are no true comboes in Brawl, especially with Ganny.)

Only disadvantage with DTilt is it doesn't work very well against sword users. Most sword users will be able to outprioritize or outspeed the DTilt. In some cases like Metaknight or Marth they'll simply hop over it and hit you in the face.

FTilt tends to work better on swordies, it may be smaller ranged but its hitbox covers directly in front of Ganny unlike the DTilt. With that said DTilt also actually lets Ganny duck under certain projectiles like Wolf's SH'd lasers.

DTilt is pretty much Ganny's main poking and launcher attack.

Click to expand...

Flying Dutchman said:

Sweeping Snake in Melee, it's not much of a sweep now... Standing Snake would be better now.

Anyway, this move is fast, has IASA frames, buffers really well, has gigantic range and does pretty good damage. Dtilt isn't a kill move, but a setup and poking move. Leads to uairs or... Well, any aerial, really. It's range and disjointedness is amazing and works as an effective defensive maneuver: shield drop to dtilt. Opponent thinks he's safe? He can think again.

This is much like Snake's ftilt in that you should (ab)use it whenever you can. It can be used as a substitute for jab. As a poking move it's pretty great, the best Ganondorf has. It's perfect for staying out of an opponent's range and then hitting with it. And of course, you can use this as a FC follow-up, the most popular one, in fact. On heavy, fast falling characters you can chain several FC-Dtilt's, like Snake <:

I GIVE DTILT 5 GANONS OUT OF 5

Click to expand...

5) U-tilt

A2ZOMG said:

I give U-tilt 2 Ganons out of 5.

U-tilt is not a good attack, but it's not completely useless. In Melee, it takes like 140 million years for the Volcano Kick to explode, but in Brawl, thankfully they shortened that to like 90 million years.

More accurately the U-tilt right now comes out in like 1 full second, maybe a little more. However there are times when you do have an entire second to spare, so keep an eye out for those.

Firstoff, the range on the attack is completely ridiculous. If someone is ledgestalling, you can stand a mile away from the edge and usually throw one out safely and if they try to get back up within that time, and they aren't a ridiculously huge character with an insane getup attack, they'll get smashed in the face. ^^

If someone recovers from the wrong trajectory, like for example if Wolf misses the ledge with his Side-B and heads towards the stage, if you timed this one right (you should, since Wolf's recovery is so one-tracked) well, he'll get smashed in the face. =P

If someone shields this attack, they'll take RIDICULOUS shield damage (try to set this up against badly spaced approaches). If you then D-air that someone, you'll probably break their shield and have an opportunity to smash someone in the face with a Murder Fist. =D

Oh yeah, and as for other gimmicky things the U-tilt can do. It can set off Snake's land mines (wind effect) and the wind effect can gimp Ike's Side-B.

Oh yeah and U-air gets 5 Ganons out of 5 for obvious reasons.

Click to expand...

6) Uair

Shadow Nataku said:

UAir is kinda like the Cream of Ganondorf soup, its a near faultless move. 5 Ganon's out of 5.

Ganon's best chasing move, incredible hitbox, spikes, lagless almost, KO's, outprioritizes, anti-air and it makes ICE CREAM. Well maybe not.

Either way UAir can be used in multiple ways, some of my favourite include using it as an approach. Reverse UAir's buffer straight into FTilt or DTilt with 0 lag, it can spike higher damage percentage enemies too. Its also a fantastic recovery and edgehog move.

Click to expand...

7) Bair

A2ZOMG said:

I give the B-air 3 Ganons.

It's not a bad attack, but it's not a particularly good attack either. It's pretty easy to see coming, and you can almost never RAR this on the way up from a shorthop unless you're playing against a big character. The range is average, but it doesn't hit quite low enough to be reliable, and it just usually doesn't have enough kill power to easily kill from the middle of the stage. Also the duration is SUPER short, meaning that it's pretty easy to dodge.

It's fairly good offstage since you can spam this aerial real fast, and it's pretty good from a D-air followup if you're opponent is low enough. One way I use this aerial onstage is fullhopping a double B-air, and the second B-air is capable of hitting shorter characters. This disadvantage to that is of course landing lag.

Personally me, I'd use the F-air in almost any situation where I'd B-air. But I'll wait for the topic to update to that move before I explain why.

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8) Fair

A2ZOMG said:

Okay, the thing about the F-air is that it has a LOT more range and a LOT more power than the B-air (but it's duration isn't significantly longer if at all). If you hit someone's shield with the tip of this attack, they're not going to punish the landing lag unless Metaknight wasn't knocked off the ledge by this. If you hit someone off stage with this attack they are almost certainly going to die. This attack is also really good for platform punishing.

All in all, the F-air is a little less spammable than the B-air, but it's an attack that's easier to land, and is much more rewarding when it does land.

3.5 Ganons out of 5 for the F-air IMO.

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A2ZOMG said:

Okay, the thing about the F-air is that it has a LOT more range and a LOT more power than the B-air (but it's duration isn't significantly longer if at all). If you hit someone's shield with the tip of this attack, they're not going to punish the landing lag unless Metaknight wasn't knocked off the ledge by this. If you hit someone off stage with this attack they are almost certainly going to die. This attack is also really good for platform punishing.

All in all, the F-air is a little less spammable than the B-air, but it's an attack that's easier to land, and is much more rewarding when it does land.

3.5 Ganons out of 5 for the F-air IMO.

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Shadow Nataku said:

Fair, don't have much to say about it other than its a great retreat move if SH'd out of a shield since it'll send them flying back even when shielded and has a strange curved hit angle since the hitbox is exclusively around the fist.

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Devil7 said:

Edge canceled wizards foot to fair on a recovering enemy. Most don't ever see it coming. Thats basically all I use it for. I could use it for platform punishing but I prefer the uair to that so...

I give it

I would give it 3.5 like A2ZOMG but I can't make half a ganon head and it isn't worth a 4, so I give it a 3 instead.

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Calixto said:

The F-Air is a good punisher every now and again for enemies that get trigger happy with their projectiles. D3 is a good example, his Waddle Dee toss has some nasty lag on it, and as Ganon you can sometimes get close enough to land a decent F-Air if they toss one Waddle Dee too many. After that first hit, you can just approach from their air if they spam, and pressure them to give up the spam.

Nifty for Ganon who has no projectiles of his own. 3.5 I would agree.

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9) Dair

Ray_Kalm said:

5/5 for D-air. We all know how good it is. Lag can be cancelled, it has incredible power, has a decent hitbox, it can Spike, and it could be used when tech chasing.

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10) Nair

A2ZOMG said:

N-air has good qualities like range and coming out fast. The problem with the N-air is that it can only be used laglessly from a fullhop, and the SH N-air has significant trouble hitting smaller characters (not as much as Falcon’s N-air though). N-air however is pretty good offstage for either edgeguarding or recovering due to the lingering hitboxes and great range. Fullhopped N-airs are a viable brickwall tactic and as Swoops pointed out somewhere else, a fullhopped N-air can be followed up with a low aerial Flame Choke or a double jumped aerial of your choice.

N-air every so often is also a good combo breaker. Sure, it doesn’t hit as low as I’d like it to, but it will get people away from you faster and more reliably than persay a D-air.

Dunno, 3 Ganons. It’s not an amazing attack, but it has merits. If it was more powerful then I'd definitely give it a higher rating because that's pretty much the main thing holding back this attack (aside from existing situationality from landing lag and hitbox area).

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hyperstation said:

Nair comes out really quickly and as such, it's able to sometimes break combos on the knockback from the move that precedes it. That is, if you're being hit back in the air from certain moves, you can occasionally catch the opponent with a nair on your way back just by smashing the A button. I can't give specific examples at this point, but I know I do this a lot, rather instinctively, against my friend who mains samus.

I'd say one of Nair's greatest attributes is that it adds variation to Ganon's game. I'm finding more and more as I keep pushing my ganon as far as he can go that the best way to dominate with ganon is to be as unpredictable and un-repetitive as possible. I try to keep this in the front of my mind when I'm playing someone and I try not to fall into traps of "oh, this move is working, I'll just keep using it" because chances are, it won't keep working, and you'll keep dominance longer if you can keep effing with your opponent with every option you've got. I want my opponent to have to watch me very carefully every time ganon leaves his feet. I don't want any of my approaches to become legible like a pattern. Using swoops FH nair knowledge is just another possibility. I think FH Nair > FH Nair > Buffered follow up is a phenomenal attack against almost any character. The only time this becomes less successful is when they can read it ahead of time and get underneath it before either kick stops them.

This move is great from a stand still with great range, also. You can often surprise your opponent with this at close range when they might be expecting a jab or dtilt. Quick off your feet and covers a lot of range both vertically and laterally. You have a lot of time in the air to push it forward or backwards, remember. Effectively, you can go from a standstill to either an offensive approach or a defensive retreat with relative ease.

I'll give it 3/5, but I'm finding it more and more useful every time I pick up the controller. This is a move that can be pushed harder.

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11) Usmash

Devil7 said:

up smash is really good, (better on stages with low ceilings). This is best used for platform punishing, and vertical tea bagging. It has a good range, but not as good as snake's utilt. Its got awesome power behind it and is a good light weight finisher.

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A2ZOMG said:

I give U-smash 4 Ganons.

It's a very good attack, especially when you consider what Brawl is all about. In Brawl, the game is ruled by characters that are able to throw out powerful attacks safely. The U-smash for the large part fits that bill perfectly. It does 23% undiminished, which is more than Falcon's U-smash. It comes out reasonably fast, and has virtually zero ending lag, so basically it has all the properties of a good attack.

The only reason why I don't give the U-smash any more Ganons is because it's not nearly as spammable as persay the D-air or U-air. It would be spammable if Ganon could slide across the world with it like Snake does, but sadly he can't. =(

It's a better damage dealer than a kill move, but it does have very good kill strength. U-smash to anything is too good btw, and in training mode D-air -> U-smash COMBOS at certain percents. Well-timed, it's also a pretty good anti-air attack, although I can't honestly say I'm very good at using it for that.

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12) Dsmash

A2ZOMG said:

2.5 - 3 Ganons.

I think it has the fastest startup of Ganon's Smashes. The range is quite good too. D-smash is more viable than F-smash for punishing the lag of an attack, while F-smash is better for intercepting an approach or punishing a roll. It's also the weakest of Ganon's Smashes, having pretty average knockback and only slightly above average damage.

D-tilt is usually better though. Better range, better speed, less laggy.

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Swoops said:

2 Ganons

D-Smash is probably my least used Ganon move (next to Warlock Punch and U-Tilt.) Faster than any of Ganon's smashes, which is some pretty good start up, but I usually don't use this move unless it's accident. Weakest of his smashes and I'm pretty sure it's easy to air dodge out of the second hit because I've had it done constantly. Overall though, it can be decent out of shield for some good damage, and it's speed makes it at least semi-usable. Um...I suppose you can use it out of gerudo every so often, but you usually have better options. I think in general you usually have better options then D-Smash.

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Flying Dutchman said:

2 Ganons.

It's just not good - while it has a good startup, the lag is still bad and you can't do anything with it. It does high percent damage but it's a really weak smash. It's hitbox isn't remarkable. I, too, have always tried to implement it in my game but I just can't really find anything. I should test FC -> dsmash...

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13) Fsmash

hyperstation said:

F smash is great.

Charge it to punish missed grabbers (especially zamus, samus, link, toon link, lucas, ness, and any other tether dudes who have long grab recovery).

Buffer a Dair that comes up short with a c-sticked fsmash. It stutter steps. One of my favorite sequences. Approach with a cautious dair in the hopes that your opponent advances, and if they don't, fsmash to the face. You can also purposely dair way short from your target as bait. You do this to set up spacing for a stuttered fsmash. It's good to buffer other approaches with this too...rar uair, rar bair, FJ nair, however this is not as consistent or reliable as buffering with dtilt, jab, or ftilt.

Good in spot dodge battles since the move stays out for a while. It can catch people right out of their spot dodge, even if it seems like the move is done. Same with shields. It pushes them back pretty far and does nasty shield damage...and everyone knows the pleasure of breaking someone's shield so you can finally work that warlock punch. mmm.

3.5/5. It doesn't get a better score because you can't use it enough. If it were a little less situational, it'd get 4/5 easily, but as of this writing, it's still used too sparsely.

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14) Dash Attk

Twilight_Prince said:

I give Dash Attack 4 Ganons out of 5... perhaps only 3, but I'll round up.

It moves surprisingly fast, which can catch people off guard. Surprising them is great, seeing as this thing kills. Sadly, the later part of the move does not kill nearly as well as the early part. The later part is easier to hit with, since you can take full advantage of the speed boost if you start farther back. I can't give this move a really great score because it may be great as a surprise, but when the surprise is over, it is just begging to be shielded, then shield-grabbed.

Note that it does get the full 5 Ganons against anyone who can be hit by this directly out of a FC.

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15) B-Moves

A2ZOMG said:

Warlock Punch gets 1.5 Ganons.

It has TWO reasonable uses, one of which is only half reasonable. The obvious one is vs a broken shield, which of course is the best way to use it. The other one is exploiting the DI from a reverse Warlock Punch while recovering, but this leaves you vulnerable to characters who have a huge zone at which they can edgeguard safely at. Otherwise there are better moves than the Warlock Punch for every situation.

Dark Dive gets 3 Ganons.

It's a risky but effective edgeguard, both with the Uppercut and the grab part because of the insane priority. It's also one of Ganon's better options out of shield because of it being a pretty fast grab. However otherwise it's really weak and the landing lag is bad, making it situational.

Wizard's Foot gets 4 Ganons

GREAT punishing attack thanks to the long duration, good range, and decent speed. The priority is really good too, so it can be used to smash through a variety of attacks. At high percents, the ground WF gets people off stage nicely, and the air WF kills people fast (kills Mario at like 84% on FD if I recall, which is only 1% more than Bowser's Down-B) Finns7 also perfected the perfect edgeguard with it. All in all this attack is GOOD.

Oh and sweetspotting the edge with an aerial Wizard's Foot is the most ****** way to recover ever.

Murder Choke gets 5 Ganons. Absolutely essential for Ganon and one of his few redeeming qualities that makes him a threat. This one attack can give shielders and would be edgehoggers a big scare, and it makes Ganon a ****ing amazing combo monster.

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Flying Dutchman said:

Warlock gets 0 Ganons. It looks fancy, that's it. The range is terrible, you can stand right next to Ganondorf while he's charging it and you'll step past him and MISS. Half of the cast can probably duck underneath it as well. And on top of that, the lag is terrible, unlike utilt.

Dark Dive gets 4 Ganons, for being the most reliable recovery move. It has gigantic grab range, both attacking and grabbing the ledge. Dark Uppercut is HUUUGE. Out of shield, this ***** more than shieldgrab because of the range. The landing lag is still bad though. x:

Wizard's Foot gets 3.5 Ganons. I agree with A2ZOMG on everything, but.. I'm just not as excited about this move, even though I use it a lot.

Flame Choke gets over 8000 Ganons.

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Shadow Nataku said:

Warlock Punch is crap quite frankly. But its such a manly attack its prescence alone causes its score to plummet to minus infinity than wrap round into a positive mark of 5 million Ganon out of 5. Seriously speaking 1 Ganon out of 5 it still has its use for recovery if you have fast enough fingers.

Dark Dive is 3.5 Ganon's. People who think this recovery is gimpable are the same who think they can finish Ike during an Aether (well except Lucas who holds the niche of actually being able to hit Ike during that attack.) The distance this covers and grab range is HUUUGE and the uppercut part of the attack is manly, on some thinner stages like Battlefield its very easy to come underneath the stage and still grab the ledge. Meanwhile the attack part is so massive it can cover an entire 1/3rd almost of the entire bottom platform. However the grab part of the attack despite is fantastic hitbox is utter ***. No hit stun means some characters can hit you as soon as you let go, not to mention the horrendous lag.

Wizard Kick is 3.5 Ganon's. The priority of this attack is absolutely hideous, just about anything can cancel it out with no effort not to mention the horrible ending lag. However the hitbox of this attack is incredible and the aerial version is fantastic for getting Ganon back on the ground where he belongs after a launcher attack. Its saving grace however is how v+B off the stage makes for a fantastic chasing move and has multiple options to follow up with. I think theres still more potential for this move still to be found as well. Also say what you will about the Quake part of the attack but I'm still pretty sure it actually hits certain characters normally immune to Flame Choke follow ups.

Speaking of which >+B can't even be scored. Its such and important attack and the center of every players offense and punishment no score would justify it. Instead have a manly Ganondorf.

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Approachig Options

Jekyll said:

Ganon can approach?

I mean, if you count anything that gets you closer to the opponent as an approach then sure, running, murder kicking, walking while taunting every five steps, etc are all approaches...But as far as good, safe and/or useful approaches go, Ganon doesn't really have much. He's really all about using baiting and luring as a form of pseudo-offense(which doesn't work too well against projectile characters.

As far as approaching goes, I'd say that ShortHopAirDodging is golden. It's mostly defensive and it's good against projectile characters, but it also has virtually no lag upon landing. SHAD into a SPACED f-tilt or d-tilt is gold, and I use it a lot in my game. I've been messing around with double-jumped fast-falled Airdodging as well, but fastfalling or falling from higher than a shorthop causes ganon to have a few frames of landing lag which aren't much, but can screw with timing.

Walking is better for "approaching" than running is.

RAR bairs and uairs are nice for taller characters. bairs can be FFed with no lag if you start them soon enough. Using any B move as an approach (that is, using it when the opponent is fully capable of blocking/dodging) isn't wise.

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Projectile Ordeal

hyperstation said:

I'll give my input on the projectile based fighters against whom I have the most experience. I'll leave the remaining characters to others with more expertise.

Samus is generally very easy for me. It's probably due to my experience vs samus more than any other character, but she's limited to power beam/charge shot, missile, homing missile, and for sake of argument, a really long zair (best in the game). Charge shot and both missiles are slow, so getting the power shield is easy and can be done very consistently. You can crouch under missiles which are fired while samus is jumping to get the missile cancel to happen, and approach during the follow-up missile rather than having to block all of them. Zair is better dealt with by spot dodging or wiz kicking/DA under the zair to knock her out of the air before the Zair connects. Difficulty: 4/10, Best Approach Option: Power shielding/perfect shield walking.

Diddy is pretty nasty with the bananas. Anyone who has played against a glide tossing, nana juggling Diddy knows as much. The most important thing here is to disrupt his banana game with aerials and dash attacks to grab them. Once you have possession of a banana you have many more approach options, or rather, you are going to have less of a problem approaching. Be aware that Diddy's will try to use your bananas against you by ^B next to them to send a rogue rocket barrel your way. Difficulty: 8/10, Best Approach Option: Low aerials and airdodges to grab bananas in the air, DA to grab them off the ground, wiz kick over grounded bananas (F*** Banana Technique)

Fox is a goof ball and his projectiles don't count for s***. No hit stun = not an issue. His projectiles don't affect how you choose to approach.

Toon Link has arrows, bombs, boomerang, and a short ranged zair which isn't of much merit. Arrow spam is easily perfect shield walked. Boomerang gets thrown in with arrows, but can also be tilted up and bounced off the ground to shut down aerial approaches. Bombs will be used from above often as well as thrown into the projectile cocktail toon link's brewing up. Can be intercepted with aerials and dashes (I believe), but in general, bombs are more easily avoided than toon link's other projectiles. Difficulty: 6/10, Best Approach Option: Shield Walking

My experience with Pikachu is unfortunately limited to wifi matches generally, but his electric bouncy ball seems to be fairly easily power shielded or even rolled past/jumped over they're not in series. Difficulty: 2/10, Best Approach Option: Power Shielding, Shield walking, rolling

I suppose I could write about Mario and Luigi, but really, it's difficult for them to spam their fireballs to the point of annoyance. I don't know enough about mario match-ups to say if fludd can be used for much more than gimping recoveries.

I don't have trouble with DDD's waddledees, but I haven't played enough tournament level DDD's to say for sure how difficult it is to approach beyond them. Their range is a limiting factor to be sure, and in general, they'll be going for that sweet chain grab on you.

A general note on projectiles: if you're having trouble, play on a level with at least one platform. Platforms are the default escape plan when being projectile spammed not because it gets you out of the line of fire, but rather because it causes your opponent to change what he's doing. He might jump and fire projectiles, begin to approach in some fashion, etc. Diddy on FD is 100x harder than Diddy on Battlefield. Common knowledge, I know, but I'm just throwing it out there.

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hyperstation said:

No, that's just not true. What you meant to say is "thunderstorming also works for picking up bananas from the ground". It's always situational whether you want to use a thunderstorm or a DA to pick them up, but I find myself using DA far more often because it has more range than thunderstorming, and doubles as an approach option. I use DA to both grab the banana and hit diddy so I can then toss the banana and get a string of attacks going. Thunderstorm only hits if diddy is passing underneath you to get the banana, and chances are that if you hit him, he's already got the banana anyway. Tstorming might be the better tactic when Diddy is on the other end of the stage, and you're not worried about hitting him as well as getting the banana, but due to the banana's relatively short throw range coupled with Diddy's quick grounded approach speed, he is usually just a couple steps behind any banana, often within DA range.

True, thunderstorming works to pick up Bananas from the ground, but I definitely think DA is the superior tactic far more often.

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Swoops said:

^Stomp picks them up from a slightly greater distance (very slightly though.) I prefer stomp heavily to DA because it has no lag whatsoever and can punish any ground attempt made by diddy. The lag alone on DA warrants stomp being a bit more useful. Not to mention if Diddy banana spamming his spacing is going to be top notch and he's usually going to be far enough away to avoid and punish. At least if he's far away when you stomp, you don't get punished.

Stomp is less risky and gives you a lot more reward. Not to say that DA shouldn't be used a decent amount though.

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---
---

(The FD Testing)

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181639

(Sliq is amazing and so can you)

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164751

(Reverse Buffering, Combos and You)

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191653


(How to Murder Stuff...)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200364


(Super Ganon Jump Thread)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203754
---
---

Credits: (Gleam (Original poster) Flying Dutchman, Tenki, Bizzaro Flame, Sliq, Undrdog, Gojira345, A2ZOMG, DomiNate, Devil7, Swoops, Shadow Nataku, x Diety x, adumbrodeus, any and everyone who helped out somewhat in the Matchup discussions, Jekyll, hyperstation, Mmac, fromundaman, Godismyrock, Mister E, CluelessBTD, Koskinator, Twilight Prince, Ray Kalm, dolphination, F3Niix, Weinner, stRIP, PK-ow!

Someone with "Gojira" in their name brought up the whole F-throw----->Wizard Foot. You aren't supposed to immediately down b, but wait for you opponent to jump, or predict their jump and then hit them and then footstoolin them, spiking them. Or just putting them into a position where they couldn't recover.

Then that's really just good tech chasing with a wizards foot from an f-throw.

Yes, but that's only for off the edge. It doesn't often work

well I'm not here to think of techs for Ganon. I'm here to put techs found by other people and put them on here. So I mean if there's like anything that can even remotely help Ganon out. Be great to post it here.

"Demonic Step"
Type: Tech/slide
Input: Hold shield after a spotdodge.
Effect: Causes Ganon to slide forward juuust a little bit (very miniscule amount) after a spotdodge.

He can also perform a Pit-style "Super Slide Step", as well.
Type: Tech/slide movement
Input: Hold [back] during a spotdodge (to buffer it), then after you start to get out of the spotdodge, hold [forward].
Effect: Ganon slides forward while pivoting backwards, then continues to slide while turning around to face forward. If you don't hold forward, Ganon will slide in the direction the spotdodge was facing, then step backwards, which is nice for counter-attacking some opponents.


Eh, I don't have a vid of Ganondorf doing it (I think someone posted it before though) but here's a Pit video with at least one of those two being demonstrated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8vUpkV2mak @ 2:40 - Pit's "Super Slide Step"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS_EMH6IhhU&feature=related <- for the lulz, instructional video ;]

The dorf boards are seriously like a patient on life support. Its really dead but no one knows it yet there still in denial about the whole thing. What we need to do is reanimate the dying carcus of the ganny boards into a zombie using the necronomicon and turn it loose on the other boards and watch it zombify them as well.

Zombie Ganon, as much as I hate it, its correct. Nobody wants to even try out the King of Evil anymore.

Tenki: Do you know who discovered the Demonic Step. I know it was posted on it awhile ago, though I have no idea where it is.

eh, well...

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181639 <-- FD's thread on testing
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180374 <-- the first thread that brought it up as a focus afaik

Forum Search is overpowered and should be banned

As I understand it, Undrdog found this technique for Pit and they just decided to share it with the Ganonboards.

thanks Tenki, I gave you and FD (The person I remember bringing it to the Dorf board) some credit for at least bringing it up here.

hooray for the zombie ganon, he shall be called ZOMBANON

A bump

Zombanon...time to infect the rest of the board!

Another bump, Added a few more things. Hope you all enjoy I'll try to get more in soon. If anyone wants to post videos for any of the said techs above, twould be great.

I think you need to clear the stutter step thing. There are actually three versions. I'll list them in the order of least amount of distance gained to most amount of distance gained.

For all three of these techniques I'm going to describe them as if you're facing right.

1st stutter step (least distance gained)
Press right on the control stick then press right on the c-stick very quickly.

2nd stutter step (middle distance) (this is the one you listed)
press left on the control stick then press right on the c-stick.

3rd stutter step (most distance gained)
quickly press right on the control stick then left on the control stick then right on the c-stick.


I don't know if there's specific names for these moves, the at guide doesn't really list them. The third one might have been referred to as a pivot until the true pivot was discovered. Anyways, I refer to the first one as a stutter step, the second as a reverse stutter step, and the third as a double stutter step, but that's just me to keep myself from getting confused. I don't know if you want to list these as three separate techniques or just list them under stutter step variations. Let me know if you want me to write that up.

I only knew about the first and second but not the third one, i'll have to try it.

Yeah, third is by far the most useful. Discovered that myself when I was into falcon. A lot of sonic users use it and it gives a fair amount of added distance to Ganon's fsmash.

Ah thanks.

I started maining Ganon and this really helped!

Sticky!

Thanks DomiNate, I changed it up and added your name to the Credits at the end.

I took it to my liberty to add some of the links that these great Ganon users are presenting too.

Another Bump, added a few more things to the list. It sure is growing...

Some other things I never saw mentioned, but I'm not quit sure how use full they are, when you thunderstorm you can then jump right beofre you hit the ground and do another dair on the opponent which will also have no lag and follow that up by an usmash for a crap ton of damage. This really only works at low percents (less than 15) for small light weight characters but is a murder machine for heavies especially DDD. Ohh and you can tell if you jumped in the air if you see the whoosh air rings around ganny's feet. It's so close to the ground thats the only to tell, that and the fact that he does a flip but you don't really have time to see that before you dair again. I've jacked around with trying to link 4 hits together but they just take to much damage so an up b is really the only finisher after the up smash.

I'm glad you mentioned the Double Dair thing...I completey forgot to put that in the Thunderstorming section. Thanks Devil7. Also...if I get this straight.

You can Dair----Usmash----Dark Dive? Sounds a hefty combo finisher...and a good one for rackin up damage too.

you can also slide into an usmash followed by a thunderstorm then another upsmash. This really only works on FAT characters though.

I got the Dair----> Usmash----->Dark Dive potential Combo in the list. What do you mean when you say "slide into Usmash, thunderstorm, Usmash?

you know that you can run and immediatly upsmash while still maintaining momentum, OK ganons momentum sucks but its there I promise even if it is only three pixels.

well, once again I thank you Devil7 for bring me more things on Ganondorf. Got anything else?

Not much right now but i test him daily so I'll get back you on that. Right now i'm working on his throws and crap like that.

Seeing as how Ganon probabably has the worst Grab range in the game. Anything that can help out his throws would be great.

Props to Gleam and everyone else for making such a great thread.

By the way, links don't work for me. Anyone else have this problem?

OK his down throw can be followed by a shuttered stepped f smash. I'm pretty sure this works on all charaters since it works on MK. Also I have been jacking around with this but I haven't posted it yet because i'm still testing but i think ganny has anr infinite against the DDD. I dont have any friends that even know what DI means and my wifi is down right now so ive been testing against level 9s but i don't think thats good enough.

Thanks DomiNate...your words keep me going.

Devil7- I'll freaking Ganoncide my Wii if you find out that we really do have an infinte on King Dedede. Still...gotta make absolute sure on that DI and stuff. But if you can find that out, that would be appreciate by I'm sure everyone.

and on the D-throw...Stutter Fsmash. Have you worked on the DI of it. Not denying your claim, but for such an awesome Claim I just have to make sure that this works at least 80% of the time.

Its really hard to pull off but you hit them with the very very edge of the hit box on the fsmash

I haven't had anyone DI out yet its just really hard to do, and for the record i use the one were you mash in the opposite direction and then just f smash not the other two shutter steps. I don't know if they work or not I have not tried.

Well I was working on the D-throw--->Stutter Step Fsmash on MK. and while it seems like you have to be quick. The moment you down thorw and get control of Ganon you need ot instantly Stutter step Fsmash. While it seemed to work on MK. Do you think you can be the Ganon master and see which characters are and aren't affected by this. Yes, I know I'm putting a load on your shoulder but its for the good of the Ganon board.

Also, at least on MK, we may be able to do a Down throw-----> Wizard's Foot. Its got to be quick though. When you Down throw, you can't hold the analong stick down, you need to keep it in its neutral position and once the throw is over, quickly press the analong stick down and the B button. If you hold the analong stick down after the throw, I think it puts in the crouch input first and thus puts in lag before your attack.

and of course I need to know about this supposed infinite on Dedede we may have.

Down Throw --> Stutter Step F-Smash

I use the second stutter step listed, If you want to test the third one go for it ut i'm pretty sure it takes a few fames to long to pull of since you have to the reflexes of a cat on speed to do this move.

The characters that can be hit by this are
Marth
MK
DDD
Olimar
Link
DK
Diddy
G&W
Sonic
Falco
Wolf
CF
Squirtle
Ivysaur

Basically you have to hit them with the f-smashes uber hitbox. Even though this move doesn't work against everyone it still a great move since most players come back for a hit after the throw and get pegged by the elbow. So the first or second time they feel it, after that they stay away from you after your down throw.

NOW for the Semi-Not So Grand Finale
The chain grab on DDD

You can down throw DDD from 0-20% and then follow that by a charge, fsmash, or wizards foot. Sorry its not infinite but hey it like 50 free damage on DDD.

Added a few more of those combos and stuff Devil7. I put the Dedede Grab combo in, but I put a star next to it. I need to make absolutely sure that there is no way Dedede can DI or anything out of the grab until the said percentages.

And if you could...provide a video of the grab combo, because that would be the most helpful thing of all.

I'm pretty confidant because i used it to destroy ddd in several matches before. While it might not seem like much, 0-20% is enought to cross FD and then follow it by a spike for a low kill. But ok Ill get video sometime this weekend, hopefully today.

That's fine. It's just chaingrabbing Dedede until 20% and ending it with 50% plus combo is well...godly.

But yes, whenever you can provide a video, please do.

And seriously, with all these new techs and things, Ganon better be whooping some *** in some tournaments now.

OK i'm done testing on DDD it really works I'll have vids by tommarrow, however there is a way for DDD to "escape". If he does nothing. Thats right DDD can try to jump, attack, DI, dodge and all that but he will still get grabbed, if he does nothing as in doesn't press a single button or move the stick the timing changes so its really hard for the ganny to grab again