Weekly match-up discussion (sticky please)

adumbrodeus · Aug 27, 2008

Ok, we all know that Ganondorf has a lot of bad match-ups, but wouldn't it be a good idea to figure out exactly how many, how bad, and if he has *gasp* an advantageous match-up or 2?

Plus, it would also give us an opportunity to figure out strategies that we can use against those chars.

Match-up discussions:

1. Diddy Kong: no consensus yet, still in progress.

2. Captain Falcon: 65-35 Ganondorf

3. Marth: 80-20 Marth

4. Wario: 60-40 Wario

5. Metaknight: 85-15 MK

6. Snake: 70-30 Snake

7. DDD : Current

MasterWarlord · Aug 27, 2008

Diddy? Not sure. I'd say Diddy's recovery is one of the easier ones for Ganon to gimp, actually, as the period where Diddy's charging up his rockets is one of the few long enough any character will give Ganondorf for a dair spike. Diddy has problems gimping Ganon, unlike most characters, due to Ganon's up special having more priority his side special, as well as giving Ganon plenty of chances for Ganoncide. Overall, I'd say Ganon counters Diddy's air game quite well.

On the ground, it's more even, or rather it'd be even, if not for those cursed banana peels. Ganon has to play a defensive game due to the banana peels, though thankfully Diddy's projectiles aren't that potent.

Overall, Diddy isn't that fast, I think this might be one of the fewer instances where Ganon has a neutral match up with a higher tier character. I'm not an expert, but I would be apalled if the match up was any worse then 60-40, Diddy's favor.

cyclops4ever · Aug 27, 2008

fighting diddy kong is very bad, but not as bad as i thought it would be honestly. you will take tons of damage but you can kill him pretty early, so i guess it depends on the bananas, they make or break the match. diddy's favor.

Gleam · Aug 27, 2008

Bump, I don't have anything to say. I think Diddy is a hard match up in general, but one of the easiest high tier match ups Ganon has.

But its good to see that someone is trying to put the Ganon board into action and what we really need is a match up threat like this.

Devil7 · Aug 27, 2008

Well ganny can use his wizards foot to go right over the nanerz, another way to train against characters with items like diddy, snake, and peach you turn on neutral items and learn to catch and use them so you can use them against them. I played a match were the diddy kept using nanerz and I just kept grabbing them and throw them since who ever grabbed them last is immune to that naner. Diddy's upb is easily gimped and since diddy players are usually hopping around all over the place the tipman spike comes in handy

Gleam · Aug 27, 2008

Well I think it can be said that Diddy's recovery just asks to be gimped and since edgeguarding is an important factor in Ganon's game it really helps Ganondorf out. Diddy's nanerz, like people have said can hurt Ganondorf but also help him out tremedously.

Basically if you can get Diddy off the stage, you've got a good chance at beating him. It's either a 6:4-7:3. Leaning more to that 7:3.

Gleam · Aug 30, 2008

Yes, I'm pretty much bumping this, even if it is a few days old. We need some Match up discussions. So we did Diddy...kind of. We'll d more on Diddy later.

Let's do Captain Falcon next. I say we start with all the easy characters that we know Ganon has a good chance aganst, and then we get to the harder match ups.

adumbrodeus · Aug 30, 2008

Hoping to get more input.

Let's give Diddy his due though, we haven't discussed the match-up enough to warrant a neutral call.

Devil7 · Aug 30, 2008

diddy is a good character, in the tier discusion they hit right on the head when they said he was a momentum character. once he gets going theres no stopping him, but if he never gains control hes screwed.

Gleam · Aug 30, 2008

Oh this match is far from neutral...its definitely in Diddy Kongs favor, unless Ganon has something that can just...whoop Diddy. It's like peopl have said, if you can take control of Diddy's nanerz, one of his prime in game potentials, you can affectively stop and beat him with his own weapons. Plus his Recovery just asks to be gimped.

Basically I think its about getting Diddy off the stage for a gimp, or at least affectivey edgeguarding him and Ganon's a competent Edgeguarder. Its all about patience and punishing. Diddy is a character who racks up damage greatly and basically lagless on most of his attacks. You can make good of his light weight (I think Diddy is light...)

I mean, I don't know much on Diddy.

EDIT: Also, Ganon's range>>Diddy's range.

Swoops · Aug 31, 2008

Ah the monkey...

Both Diddy and Ganon are pretty momentum based characters. So it's a big match of gaining control and keeping it. Unfortunately, Diddy has more tools to do this. While Diddy is pure momentum, Ganon is a lot of defense before he can work his openings. If you find yourself on the receiving end of a rushdown from Diddy, it can prove very difficult to get out. But Ganon has things going for him against the monkey. Range and edgeguarding. Your range just flat out f*cks up Diddy's.

If he does get inside, stomp screws him up pretty bad and gets over a lot of his ground hitboxes (be wary of u-tilt, as with just about everybody.) Stomps and U-Airs kill his recovery but be careful not to underestimate it or you end up on the wrong side of a barrel spike or stage spike. Bananas...really aren't that much of a problem for Ganon. I'll tell you why. Thunderstorming picks up bananas right off the ground when you're near them. Test it out and you'll see how useful it is. Ganon happens to be deadly with nanners and he has a very good glide throw as well. Nanners coupled with stomps, Gerudo, and f-smashes are all very scary.

Overall, keep out of Diddy's rushdown as you have very little to get out of it. Diddy's size actually hampers you a bit at first, but you learn to get around it. Let's not forget that punishing with Gerudo is amazing, and will keep him wary when he's looking for a kill (remember as well, he has a tough time with KOs.) You have all of your guaranteed Gerudo follow ups, and Gerudo>Shoulder starts killing at 98% before Gerudo hits.

Diddy happens to be one of Ganon's better match ups even though it doesn't look like it at first.

adumbrodeus · Sep 7, 2008

Ok, since there weren't any other characters mentioned, Captain Falcon is up next, thread is currently up.

Ok, so who's up next?

Possibly a really bad match-up so we can figure out what to do in that situation, Marth possibly?

adumbrodeus · Sep 14, 2008

Ok, the Marth discussion is up.

*cues funeral-esque organ music*

Anybody want to have input about the characters we use or should I just pick?

Cause nobody even tried to suggest a character to use.

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 14, 2008

I think you should do it by order: tier wise

*prepares for massive frustration*

Devil7 · Sep 17, 2008

Wario should the next in the discussion.

Man I wish they would sticky this already.

Gleam · Sep 17, 2008

Well, while were waiting for Adumbrodeus to update the Marth discussion, let's talk about Wario until the offical chat about him comes up.
---

The first thing that really comes up is the Release Grab. Technically Ganon does have an infinite on Wario, but its considered harder to do. Once you grab wario and he escapes, you get a free F-smash on him. This means you can litterally KO hm from one end of Final Destination to the other end at merely 70%. Can you imagine how low the percent could be if you Release Grabbed-->F-smash Wario near the edge of the stage off. That's like 40-50%.

Auto-Dair-->Usmash already does a little more than 40%. Since Wario doesn't have a projectile, unless throwing pieces of his bike counts, he has to be awfully careful when approaching Ganon. Perhaps to the point where he may have to be more defensive than Ganon. It's prime that when going against Wario, you need to grab him. Wario has something to fear from Ganon.

That's what I think on the whole, release grab issue. Which I'm positive will have a heavy impact on this battle.

Devil7 · Sep 18, 2008

Before I start talking on the Wario front, I would like to thank Adumbrodeus. Granted I know ganny is low tier :Cough:

ough: third from the bottom

ough: but that doesn't mean he has only bad match ups. Right now there are two match up threads for all characters. One is complete and as far as I can tell was made before any real meta-game discoveries. It has ganon as bad against almost every character, except 4 in which they are neutral matches only. The second is not complete and the five or six it has for ganny are all bad. Ganon really didn't have much recognition and hopefully we will discover that he isn't all **** and chips. So thank you Adumbrodeus for creating the match up thread and everyone who contributed to it. That includes me : Pats self on back and grims:

adumbrodeus · Sep 18, 2008

Gleam said:
Well, while were waiting for Adumbrodeus to update the Marth discussion, let's talk about Wario until the offical chat about him comes up.
---

It's not done, figure stuff out, talk about the metagame, that's why it's weekly.

Give it till sunday, then we'll start discussing Wario, there's no real reason to jump the gun on this.

Gleam · Sep 19, 2008

Not trying to jump the gun or anything. I just though while the official character match up was going on in one topic, we could discuss the next potential character here.

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 19, 2008

Why don't we do it just tier wise?

adumbrodeus · Sep 19, 2008

Gleam said:
Not trying to jump the gun or anything. I just though while the official character match up was going on in one topic, we could discuss the next potential character here.

Yeah, but discussing who the next potential character is what the point of the thread is supposed to be, not his/her attributes.

As I said, I like Wario, and he's high tier so it does sort of fit with going tier-wise. But it's not decided until Sunday night.

I'll go by unique opinions of users ("tier-wise" will be assumed to be descending order, MK first), only the last opinion will be counted, plurality rules. I get a vote.

Devil7 · Sep 20, 2008

Wait, adumbrodeus gets a vote... :chuckle:

adumbrodeus · Sep 22, 2008

Devil7 said:
Wait, adumbrodeus gets a vote...

Mwahahahah, yes I do.

And Wario it is, his thread is up right now.

adumbrodeus · Sep 29, 2008

So, no other suggestions, I just defaulted to tier-wise. MK is up.

Gleam · Sep 29, 2008

Adumbrodeus, did you ever get a summary for Marth at all?

adumbrodeus · Sep 29, 2008

Gleam said:
Adumbrodeus, did you ever get a summary for Marth at all?

Very busy lately, and I haven't had access to my Wii in a bit, I wanna check something before I put up my summery, namely if Ganondorf can sheild-drop to dash attack/downB to punish marth on reaction to fair. I rather doubt it, but I'd prefer to be sure.

Doesn't really affect the match-up because he can still zone with fair and nair, and he can poke with dtilt and ftilt, but as a tactical consideration it'll be good for the Ganon players to know if they can counter fair poking like that.

Morrigan · Sep 30, 2008

Wow. Marth is 80:20? I don't wanna know Metaknight's numbers >_>

adumbrodeus · Oct 5, 2008

And Snake is up, enjoy!

Steel · Oct 7, 2008

discussing ganon, while we will probably end up with 80:20 as well we'd like to discuss it with ya'll

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5515504

Blad01 · Oct 27, 2008

we need a new match-up discussion

adumbrodeus · Oct 27, 2008

I apoligize, mid-terms and papers have been killing me recently, I promise I'll be around smashboards and updating weekly ASAP.

And get the summeries done...

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