M2K's tier list

For all of you who wanted to know what my tier list was, I just made it, after spending about 2 hours on it, here it is.




Top

Sheik
Fox
Marth
Falco



High

C.Falcon/Jiggs/Peach (I cannot decide an order, so I'll just rank them the same, even though it's probably Falcon Jiggs Peach)
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario (he is better than Mario for winning purposes, and he is very underused and underrated)



Mid

DK/Ganon
Mario
Samus (she's very limited, I know high level Samus and she's definitely very limited and not very good outside of a few tricks at high level and her broken wavedash back)
Luigi
Pikachu
Link



Low

Y. Link
Zelda
Roy
G&W
Yoshi



Bottom

Mewtwo (taj convinced me, and after thinking it over I agree)
Pichu (up throw is the main reason esp vs fast fallers, and Nair -> Nair combos)
Bowser
Ness
Kirby




1) Marth vs Fox is EVEN, it is the most even matchup in the game, it is just like MK vs Snake in Brawl (except MK is better in Brawl slightly while Fox is better in Melee slightly), I have thought this when I mained Fox (when I beat Ken I even thought Fox had the advantage and Ken agreed), and I think this now that I main Marth. It is stage dependent, it's about 50/50, although Fox at really high level has a small advantage because of lasers if he doesn't make mistakes. Trust me, I know the matchup both ways really well, so does Cactuar and PC and Ken and Neo and a lot of people that have a very similar opinion of me, and the matchup is the most even you can possibly get besides a ditto.

2) Sheik counters Marth. Marth does better vs spacies slightly because of the chain grab, but Sheik beats more characters easier than Marth does at high level (she beats herself pretty good too, even w/out CG). Sheik also doesn't get CGed by nearly as many characters as Fox/Falco do, but she has more reliably killing power than Marth. Sheik losing to Ice Climbers is a myth. Regardless of any arguments you present, and I don't really care cuz this thread is just to show you guys what I think since a lot of you have asked me before, I won't change my opinion. I know the game really well, and I thought a lot about the characters placement. If I change my mind of any of this it will probably be on my own doing.

3) Falco has a slight advantage against Fox 1 on 1. Fox only has the advantage on FD, or if Falco plays an edge game and gets gimped a lot.

4) Fox and Falco supposedly have a small advantage vs Sheik, but I've always sucked at fighting Sheik w/ Fox. However, since the vast majority of other pros I talk to think Fox has the advantage I'll just accept that.

5) I think Sheik is the best character in Melee if played right (I have thought this for OVER 2 YEARS even when I used her A LOT back at OC2), and I do play her a lot, and I'm very good with her which you would know if you have played me in person instead of basing off vids like a scrub, so don't say I put her top because I don't use her, because I use her very much, mostly for random mid/high tier matchups, and for Sheik dittos. I don't want to hear that, oh if Marth spaces a Fair right, he won't get hit. It doesn't work like that, you can't just say that, Sheik can just needle camp and her hitboxes go through Fox, and Marth just gets projectile camped and therefore he can't just Fair camp if the Sheik doesn't let him, and that's everyone's argument for Marth being the best, besides me Azen and Ken's success w/ him. I am probably best with Marth (actually it's about the same I'm just known for Marth) but that doesn't mean the character is better. There is people that my Marth has lost to then my Sheik 4 stocked the person the very next match w/ Sheik, and there's times my Fox has lost only for me to 3 stock the person w/ Sheik. Both of these happened 1-2 months ago.

6) Doc is better than Mario, it is obvious. Doc DK Ganon Mario Samus are all close, but Doc just has more practical tools for winning, Mario's only true asset over Doc is less landing lag from all his aerials, but Doc has more power in down smash, and better USEFUL attributes like gimping.

7) Kirby and Ness are definitely worse than Pichu Mewtwo and Bowser. They are just plain horrible, I don't care what ATs there are for them, even at the highest levels of play these characters are just super limited and bad.

8) Sheik vs Marth is a counter, a counter means the best character for the matchup against someone else. The best character to fight Marth is Sheik, it's 60/40 in Sheik's favor at least, or 65/35

Sheik Marth 65/35 or 60/40
Falco vs Fox 60/40
Marth vs Falco 60/40 or 55/45
Fox Sheik 55/45 or 50/50
Falco Sheik 55/45 or 50/50
Marth Fox 50/50

these are all my opinions, but very, very, VERY educated ones

9) I main Marth (not really, it's more like I main the top 3, but I guess if it had to be one it would be Marth) because he's the easiest to be consistent with.

10) In teams it's
1) Fox
2) Jiggs
3) Peach
4) Sheik (or Marth, but Marth's only really good at support/gimping, while Sheik's downfall is her down throw total time, but everything else she's **** at)

Ooh! I love these matchup summaries. Please explain Peach's positioning for matchups, especially as to why she was for so long put in the same tier as Sheik and Marth...

My poor poor Samus, always stuck in mid tier. T_T

Thanks for the bit of info M2K.^^

Peach loses to a lot of characters. Honestly, I'm not even sure if she is 5th or not. She probably has a small disadvantage to Falcon and Jiggs, pretty even or small advantage vs Falco, gets ***** by the top 3 (***** fox only if fox makes mistakes), and beats ICs.


even though this was a reply to the other thread i made, Sheik vs Marth is a counter, a counter means the best character for the matchup against someone else. The best character to fight Marth is Sheik, it's 60/40 in Sheik's favor at least, or 65/35

Sheik Marth 65/35 or 60/40
Falco vs Fox 60/40
Marth vs Falco 60/40
Fox Sheik 55/45 or 50/50
Falco Sheik 55/45 or 50/50
Marth Fox 50/50

b4 alpha closes this -.- =[

Ok, I think we just had two different definitions of counter. To me a counter is a seemingly unwinnable match. Ex: Bowser vs sheik, pichu vs marth. In my mind sheik isn't a per se' a counter to marth. But rather his toughest match compared to the other characters.

wow that is DEFINITELY NOT a counter, that's called "a **** matchup". A counter is someone you use to beat another character, when the TIERS between characters are SIGNIFICANT, it doesn't matter anyway, ie bowser vs sheik.

Luigi is cool and stuff.
Cool enough for mid tier.

Megachuk said:

Ok, I think we just had two different definitions of counter. To me a counter is a seemingly unwinnable match. Ex: Bowser vs sheik, pichu vs marth. In my mind sheik isn't a per se' a counter to marth. But rather his toughest match compared to the other characters.

Click to expand...

o.O
I agree with M2K.

A counter isnt an unwinnable match, a counter is a character that has a signifigant advantage in the matchup.
i.e. Sheik counters Samus.
Samus isn't garbage tier, but basically every ascept of Sheik's play raepz Samus.
I've still beaten Sheiks, though. It's not impossible.

Edit: Sorry Cactuar, beat you to it.^^;;;

Yada yada.

imo ice climbers should be higher due to they do better than peach vs the higher tier people and maybe dk little lower than top of middle.

"Falco vs Fox 60/40" glad i'm not the only one who thinks falco does better vs fox

ice climbers vs peach 45/55 really close match but peach should still win
icy's vs fox 40/60 fox can be 0-death but shine wins
icy's vs falco 50/50 this is a really close match falcos horrible recover and ic's doing crazy dmg
icy's vs shiek 55/45 both can chain grab but icy's can 0-death chain grab shiek while shiek can't also solo popo can chain grab shiek for good 30%
icy's vs puff 40/60 puff its just to good and floaty
icy's vs marth 30/70 if perfect spacing and the don't get grabbed theory u win
icy's vs falcon 30/70 speed and spacing as well knee >< and the jumping to avoid grabs
just my 2 cents

now that I think about it doesn't marth and roy counter everyone?! I mean.... have you seen their Down B?

PUFF PUFF PUFF!!!!

I was under the impresion that Falcon had a slight advantage over marth as well.

I love the competitive scene of smash, you guys are so cool <3

Very nice! I've been wanting to see this. Thanks for making it!
(You should post this in the general tier discussion thread if you don't want people to discuss your tier list and/or express their opinion about your tier list here. If you have something against people discussing it here, that is)
Yay for bowser being in the top of the bottom tier Boo for bowser not being higher
BTW, what do you think about the falcon vs marth matchup? I asked about it in cactuars thread in the marth boards and you said falcon counters marth (and later on cactuar gave me more insight about the matchup). but i'm really interested in this matchup and I'd like to hear more about it (why falcon has the advantage, what are his weaknesses in the matchup, what are marths strengths/weaknesses, etc)

I'd argue that samus is better than Mario, but otherwise I do agree with this list. Falcon should be above peach really, she loses to good falcon players cause she's ideal combo material for falcon and her slowness is really a disadvantage on this matchup. Dunno bout Falcon vs jiggs matchup, but for peach it's really annoying and she doesn't have any reliable way to kill jiggs. So unless falcon has worse matchups against tops overall than peach, he should definitely be above peach in tier list. >_> Being really fast and reliable kill moves is always a good thing, along with awesome combo ability.

Falcon has an advantage vs. Marth. While Marth is fast, Falcon is faster. Marth needs to focus on spacing, while Falcon is about in-your-face combos. Falcon's aerial game is excellent for taking out floaties. He has the best dashdance in the game, IMHO, and it can be quite hard for a Marth to handle. Ah, almost forgot, Marth does have chaingrab on fast fallers, but Falcon can also chaingrab his Uthrow on floaties. Feel free to correct me if you see something wrong.

falcon is 5th, hes better than peach at least

zelda is way better than that don't be gay.

C!Z said:

I think you forget how easily Cap'n is gimped.

Click to expand...

I'm hardly forgetting, it's just that he's so fast peach can hardly lay a hand on him and on stages not mute or yoshi, she cannot simply hit him once and get it over with. Good falcon players will avoid getting gimped just like that and they do it well. And what's a char without some disadvantages anyway, falcon can use his advantages to compensate his disadvantages and not get hit and get a lot of hits himself, his opponent can't gimp him if falcon is in the process of comboing them to their doom.

Yeah Falcon is probably better than Peach

If I had to rank those 3 it would be Falcon Jiggs Peach, but it's too close.

ya thats better I was thinking the same thing

make sure that for teams you switch fox and sheik.

Mew2King said:

Yeah Falcon is probably better than Peach

If I had to rank those 3 it would be Falcon Jiggs Peach, but it's too close.

Click to expand...

Falcon first, then Jiggs/Peach imo. Jiggs and Peach matchups are kinda the same, though jiggs has rest and peach has turnips. I think jiggs can still more reliably kill people than peach with rest, while peach is a bit more mobile and can dish out damage more. Against campy foxes both lose, but least jiggs can use comboes into rest while peach can get some hits and maybe cg but not reliably kill. So it should be as you said, falcon - jiggs - peach. Maybe they should be on their own tier?

I love this tier list so much, the order of top 3, the position that jiggs, peach and falcon are, samus's position, and a lot of the switches in the low tier department.


This tier list is as accurate as it goes.

Link got lower AND higher at the same time. Go Link go, you crazy mother****er you.

Edit: I love that new mid tier.

after more thinking, I'm changing bottom tier to Mewtwo>Pichu>Bowser>Ness>Kirby

if DK/Ganon is disputed, then DK > Ganon

Falcon>Jiggs>Peach probably, but it's way way too close it's basically even.

In teams it's
1) Fox
2) Jiggs
3) Peach
4) Sheik (or Marth, but Marth's only really good at support/gimping, while Sheik's downfall is her down throw total time, but everything else she's **** at, so yeah Sheik is better)

sheik vs falco or fox is 50/50 now? 0___0

When I played Captain Jack at OC2, his sheik beat my Fox 2/3rds of the time, but I beat him in Sheik dittos 60/65% of the time or so. We played like 20 or 30 times or so probably.

Tope beat my Fox a month ago in tourney at Chus biweekly, only for me to 3 stock him in a non-CG sheik ditto right after

If Falco approaches and Sheik does full jump Nair out of shield, it hits Falco most of the time. Sheik can also kill Falco really easily.

If Fox approaches Sheik and Sheik F tilts, it BEATS Fox's Nair without trading. Captain Jack did that to me almost every time without messing up. He would also do retreating Bair as I'm approaching him and then dash attack me where I'd land.

Also I can't seem to find it but here's one of Jack vs King http://www.youtube.com/user/8568781

I was watching all 3 in person, parts of each, to see the end of each

the 2nd game Jack lost on DL64 last stock high %, but the 3rd game on Yoshis Story Jack almost 4 stocked King. Sheik played perfectly is beyond amazing. Oh and when PC went in to fight Jack in crews (sorry PC) Jack took 2 stocks before PC took 2 of Jack's, and PC's good at that match (it might have just been 1 stock to 4 instead of 2 to 4 but I don't think so; I just remember that Jack had the advantage if it was a 4 stock to 4 stock match).

m2k if you dont mind, could you explain the dynamics of falcon/jiggs/peach in the following matchups:

marth
shiek
falco
fox
samus
Doc

I wold like to know who has the best matchups out of the 3 in each of these. I am under the impression of this. plz correct me if Im wrong


Marth; jiggs/CF
shiek; peach
falco; peach
fox; jiggs
samus; CF
Doc; CF

hmm still don't think that doc should be counted as "high" but the top of middle tier, then again i don't believe ic's shouldn't be lower than peach

CF should be better than peach/jigs and ic other than small changes like lower tier being changed a little bit it looks perfect.

I like your tiers a lot... Like I never saw the point of breaking up the tiers so much, and calling Captain Falcon, Jiggly Puff, and Ice Climbers mid tier, and separating Sheik and Marth from high tier. The best 4 in the game are definitely established, and should be Top tier IMO. Falcon, Peah, Ice Climbers, and Jiggs are definitely the High tier, too. I don't know about Doc being mid tier. Not that I don't beleive he can't be good, it's just no Doc has ever stepped up to the level that the best Peaches, Jiggs, Falcons and Ice Climbers have.