Ulevo
Smash Master
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My friends Toon Link constantly lives to around 200%, sometimes more or rare occasions, due to him using proper DI in conjunction with this. And he's not even using the proper aerial. He's using the Fair out of habbit, which I believe is the slowest of the aerials.Sure, it may help, if your damage isn't already high enough. Then your screwed. XP
If you watch players like Forte Yuna, you will notice he constantly Uairs while being sent away precisely for this reason. I've tested this, and I guarantee you it works.No you wouldn't. Your momentum does not immediately stop once you execute your aerial, unless it's a move that actually moves you in a certain direction, like a Side B (Dairs, not so much) or you're Lucario.
Airdodging does do something... if you 2nd jump immediately afterwards.
To be blunt, he's not right. I know this works. I'll give you hard numbers if you want that aren't an example, since I don't have video proof.Yuna's right. Use a move with included direction as well as DI and you'll last a tad longer.
Your top priority when being hit via an attack that could kill you should be Smash DI if possible, followed by proper DI, following by aerials. Always.As I've seen it and experienced it, to recover, this seems to be the order of urgency.
1) DI (always DI)
2) airdodge for 2nd jump (use with caution)
3) the average aerial (save the true momentum boosting ones, like ROB's bair)
But if what Ulevo says is true, then aerials will be taking the place of the airdodge 2nd jump, which will be better as you can conserve that jump for anti-gimping.
He's right. I've seen the videos that overlay all the different possible actions after being hit (dodge, jump, attack). And the one that works the best is dodge + jump. Dodge gives you control back faster, which allows you use a move that saves you sooner. I believe dodge + attack still helps, which would probably be better if you going to live and didn't want to burn your jumps that quickly, but I'm pretty sure that dodge + jump is the way to go (unless you have wacky momentum-changing aerials I guess).No you wouldn't. Your momentum does not immediately stop once you execute your aerial, unless it's a move that actually moves you in a certain direction, like a Side B (Dairs, not so much) or you're Lucario.
Airdodging does do something... if you 2nd jump immediately afterwards.
The Marth one Cake is talking about is the one I'm talking about too.People have already made plenty of videos about this.
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=R73FmgN_IGc
Somebody made a better one with Marth and effectively super-imposed the different flight paths on top of each other with each form of DI but I can't find it.
Aha, found it. The video shows the relative recovery distances based on various forms of DI.He's right. I've seen the videos that overlay all the different possible actions after being hit
This is not what I am talking about at all.People have already made plenty of videos about this.
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=R73FmgN_IGc
Somebody made a better one with Marth and effectively super-imposed the different flight paths on top of each other with each form of DI but I can't find it.
Whacky changing momentum aerials do nothing more than a normal aerial would.He's right. I've seen the videos that overlay all the different possible actions after being hit (dodge, jump, attack, dodge + attack, jump + attack, dodge + jump). And the one that works the best is dodge + jump. Dodge gives you control back faster, which allows you use a move that saves you sooner. I believe dodge + attack still helps, which would probably be better if you going to live and didn't want to burn your jumps that quickly, but I'm pretty sure that dodge + jump is the way to go (unless you have wacky momentum-changing aerials I guess).
The Marth one Cake is talking about is the one I'm talking about too.
What you don't see Kizzu do in this video is attempt to move Marth forward after the aerial has been executed. I'm assuming he's using the C Stick.Aha, found it. The video shows the relative recovery distances based on various forms of DI.
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=fCX3nIR5uDk
Watch frame by frame when they overlay attack + air dodge.Aha, found it. The video shows the relative recovery distances based on various forms of DI.
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=fCX3nIR5uDk
I'm sorry, I said this doesn't work when? It, however, does notimmediately stop your momentum. It helps, but it doesn't do what you said it does.If you watch players like Forte Yuna, you will notice he constantly Uairs while being sent away precisely for this reason. I've tested this, and I guarantee you it works.
You said: "As soon as I executed the Fair, I would regain my momentum". This is untrue. It slows you down, and eventually allows you to regain the momentum, however. But, airdodging into a 2nd jump is faster.And I didn't mean it stops your momentum necessarily. When you're hit with an attack, you are sent flying at a set rate of speed that slowly decreases over time that you normally don't have any influence over.
False. Airdodging does everything. Airdodging is better. Because jumping stops your momentum and lunges you forward.Air Dodging does nothing to help this aside from allowing you to Jump after it's been executed, but it's too slow and the jumps sometimes have very minimal impact on your ability to live.
If you're Lucario.The aerials give you a lot of your momentum back and much sooner.
Hoe? This is the first I've heard of this (about Lucario).Oh, I'd also like to mention with your Lucario bit. Aerials that normally have influence on your momentum, such as Lucarios/Toon Links/ZSS/Sonics Dair do not effect the results anymore than another aerial of the same frame rate. And in fact, a faster attack will always be the better option. So in other words, for ZSS, Uair > Dair.
You're wrong. Air Dodging + Jumping is inferior to this in every possible way. I've just layed out the facts for you with actual results and numbers. I can't do anything else aside from provide video proof, which aside from sending replays, I currently cannot do.Stuff.
I'll do some testing of my own. If you're right, then I... apologize, I guess?You're wrong. Air Dodging + Jumping is inferior to this in every possible way. I've just layed out the facts for you with actual results and numbers. I can't do anything else aside from provide video proof, which aside from sending replays, I currently cannot do.
You must have done something in your testing wrong, because I just did this test:You're wrong. Air Dodging + Jumping is inferior to this in every possible way. I've just layed out the facts for you with actual results and numbers. I can't do anything else aside from provide video proof, which aside from sending replays, I currently cannot do.
You think you can make a video?To be blunt, he's not right. I know this works. I'll give you hard numbers if you want that aren't an example, since I don't have video proof.
First off, why would you Smash DI? It's only going to randomly alter the results unless you Smash DI the same each time, which is rather difficult to accomplish for human testing.You must have done something in your testing wrong, because I just did this test:
- metaknight standing on the very edge of FD so he's in his "omg im gonna fall" animation
- ddd standing with toe on the inside of the outward-most blue > > mark
- smash DI upwards, normal DI towards the stage
@32% MK's f-air would save him.
@33% MK's f-air would not save him.
@33% MK's u-air would not save him.
@33% air dodge, then jump, timed properly, would save him.
You have your numbers, I have mine. How you are DI'ing might affect this (you have to have the right normal DI to maximize the air-dodge + jump - DI'ing UP like you did isn't helping the dodge/jump). There were times when my air dodge + jump trial failed b/c my DI wasn't right. However, I tested numerous times making sure to use the exact same DI for both the attack and dodge/jump trials, and this is what I got.
Anyway, I think the lesson here is that they are both really **** close, and if the dodge/jump is indeed better, it's only marginally AND it costs you your second jump. As metaknight, this might not be a big deal, but someone like ZSS might get gimped b/c that jump was burned.
Again, were you trying to influence yourself in the air? I was holding down the entire time I was doing this with Zelda's USmash to ensure that I wouldn't keep going upwards once I used my aerials.My findings coincide with FBM's.
Metaknight, when hit with Ganondorf's Fsmash on the edge of Final Destination at 66%, was KOd whether I used proper DI, bad DI, spammed Uair, Dair, or what have you.
Airdodge and Double-Jump, when timed correctly, saved him.
Is it possible that spamming aerials kills vertical momentum better, and airdodge+double jump doesn't?
That could be why our findings conflict. You used a vertical kill move (Zelda's Upsmash), we used horizontal (DeDeDe and Ganondorf Fsmashes, respectively.)
I'll go do more testing.
EDIT: At 95% from the middle of Final Destination, Metaknight died no matter what I did from an uncharged Ganondorf Upsmash. No amount of Uairs helped save him. At 94%, he lived no matter what. So if there is a difference, it's negligible.
I should point out that he actually was able to survive by doing Uair and then immediately doing DC or the Whorenado, but we already knew that, right?
So yeah. Nothing new to report, really.
With that, you might want to take into considerationg that almost all attacks in competitive play, when proper DI is used, send you more vertical then they do horizontally. That is where the biggest use of it lies, and it saves your ***. Horizontal recovery is still good though, as I showed above with Falco & Meta Knight.From experience in serious/tournament play I'd have to agree with Ulevo. For a long time, however, I only applied it to vertical knockback, with proper DI and a dair(s), and it has ALWAYS allowed me to live much longer. Airdodges never helped me that much vertically.
I recently started using it for horizontal knockback as well and it seems to be the optimal choice for that too, though the difference is probably very close.
There IS a big difference, in my experience, with vertical knockback because obviously airdodge+jump will be giving you the wrong kind of momentum change (further up). If we take anything useful away from this thread it should be that there is indeed a huge benefit to using aerials to stop vertical knockback momentum rather than an airdodge (which does nothing since you won't be jumping).
I'm more or less claiming that Air Dodging + Jumping has very little effect. Jump helps, but only after an aerial. Air Dodging's animation takes too long to end in order for you to effectively use the jump afterwards, basically.I can't get over the fact that you're claiming that jumping has very little effect on canceling your momentum.
Setting characters on specific ends of the stage by markings is leaving room for error, unless you have the character go to the edge of a stage or attack them from the halo dropping point.That's... strange.
And yes, I was just using one Uair and then trying to force myself back. I also tried spamming for the hell of it. I tried lots of stuff.
For the vertical kill, I was holding down the whole time. I even c-sticked the Uair to make sure I was holding down as long as possiblity. Then I tried Dair. Like I said, I tried lots of stuff.
When you airdodge+jump, are you still just holding up? That's the only thing I can think of that would be skewing the findings. You have to DI up when you're hit, then airdodge and double-jump while holding back towards the stage.
^^^Important^^^
Anyway, we should run the same test to at least see if we're doing some simple differently, or figure out if this is specific to something completely obscure like... Control scheme or something. Sooo...
[STEPS TO REPRODUCE]
1 - Enter Training Mode
2 - Set Player 1 under a profile with Smash attacks on the C-Stick as King DeDeDe
3 - Set CPU to Metaknight
4 - Select Final Destination
5 - Set Metaknight to "Control" and Damage to "20%"
6 - Roll with King DeDeDe so that he is as far right as possible, while facing left.
7 - Position Metaknight facing right, with his lead toe just on the inside of the rightmost blue arrow.
8 - With the C-Stick, Fsmash left with King DeDeDe
9 - At the moment of impact, hold right with Metaknight
10 - Note where he lands
11 - Repeat steps 5-8
12 - At the moment of impact, hold right with Metaknight and, as early as possible, hit the C-stick up once to perform an Uair. Continue holding right on the control stick throughout.
13 - Note where he lands.
When I did this, Metaknight landed directly on top of the leftmost corner of the smallest blue diamond in the centre of FD, both times.
I should point out that this test won't actually disprove your theory, since the trajectories aren't necessarily the same. But it will at least tell us if we're doing something major differently.
Make sure Zelda SDs before retesting, Einstein. On that note, I tried this out with the rear of Zamus' fsmash (it has a much lower KGR than Zelda's usmash, so there's less of a discrepancy in launch speed at each percent, thus making your results much more accurate), and found that realistically, there is no advantage gained from any aerial when hit straight up.Okay, hard numbers that are real I just tested.
I used Zeldas USmash as the attack, since it goes directly upwards and there is little room for error. I used ZSS as the test dummy since she has an incredibly fast Uair.
DI was not used for this.
ZSS from the center diamond of Final Destination, right where she falls off the halo, will die from the USmash at 96% guaranteed without DI. When using the Uair to help her live however, she lived, guaranteed, to 104%.
That's an 8% difference. In a match, that could mean the loss of a set or victory.
My understanding is that you can airdodge before you can attack, meaning that if the timing is right for it, you could conceivably finish the airdodge before the attack. Or maybe simply jumping is best. I'm not clear on the details here.I'm more or less claiming that Air Dodging + Jumping has very little effect. Jump helps, but only after an aerial. Air Dodging's animation takes too long to end in order for you to effectively use the jump afterwards, basically.