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Jab Mixups and options from the ledge

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
BRoomer
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
7,292
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Land's End (NorCal)
So, this here is a little mini-guide, and will always be a *slow* WIP. If you have any suggestions or questions, PM me, k?

OPTIONS FROM THE LEDGE

I'm one of those people who enjoy ledges a lot more than they should, and I find myself there all the time, so here are some options from the ledge with a quick description. Hopefully people can put in their own thoughts as to what works best for what situation so the wolf community can learn to use the ledge to its fullest potential. As always, input is appreciated.

I've decided to break this section into two: ledgehopping and sideB.

Wolf Flash

First, some common terms that you should know:

Scarring - hold back when on ledge, and use sideB. Wolf should 'teleport' through the stage.
Semiscarring - hold down when recovering with sideB so you don't grab the ledge.
Telestepping - hitting a point on a ledge that puts you standing on the stage with 0 lag. This is a glitch that has been found to occur with many characters' recoveries, but is easiest to recreate with Wolf.
Lightstepping - hitting a point on a ledge that doesn't let you grab on, but renews your double jump and upB/sideB. Done by aiming to sweetspot right above the ledge, and can only be done when either close or far from the ledge (gap in the middle where it doesn't happen).

Scarring
This can work, but gets predictable easily, and can be shieldgrabbed or otherwise punished without much difficulty. Fortunately there are so many different options from the ledge that a smart player should be able to avoid getting obvious. A good use for scarring would be when you have your opponent very close to you on the ledge and use it to get behind them (works well with blaster planking to draw opponent near).

Jump away, SideB
Use this with LOTS of caution if your opponent is someone like Mario that can gimp **** you. This can be considered a stall tactic of sorts, but you're basically resetting the situation until you feel you can predict what your opponents reaction will be next time. Then you choose your action accordingly, and if sucessful, make it back to stage in an advantageous position. Your options after jumping away are: semiscar, ledge regrab, recover onto stage, telestep, lightstep, and (this is a fun one) holding down when you hit the ledge with sideB so that you don't grab on instantly, which lets the hitbox come out to hit anyone near the ledge (let go of down shortly after so you can still grab the ledge). The positioning for some of these takes a lot of practice, but imo it's worth it.

Lightstep

Very fun. Just don't get predicted, if they hit you when you reappear it's going to suck, especially if you already buffered your double jump. I like to lightstep > double jump > sideB onto a platform very often, especially on BF. You can DJ straight up and sideB onto the top, DJ backwards and sideB or DJ and short cancel onto the close platform, or DJ forwards and mid cancel onto the far platform.


Ledgehopping

Walljump Bair
This can be done on stages such as battlefield, and it's pretty cool when followed up with a semiscar or something. You can do it on more or less any stage with a lip actually, it's just very tough to do on some of them (like FD).

Ledgehopped Uair
This works best on YI, where you can't ledgehop fair (generally the better choice). On YI, it can actually combo into usmash or utilt on large characters without far too much difficulty O.o You can also drop from the ledge and attack from under the stage after a jump with uair on stages such as halberd, and then upB onto the stage or sideB to a ledge (useful on places like delfino or distant planet where you can go under the stages).

Ledgehopped Fair
Done properly this has 0 landing lag. Also works on YI if you move far enough into the stage or stay right on the edge. Overall a good option from the ledge. Along with the ledge attack < 100, this is the best way to return to the stage with a quick attack. Fair is just tasty overall, so naturally it would be great ledgehopped :)

Ledgehopped Dair
This is probably the best damage for punishing someone after forcing them onto the stage with their recovery (like charizard, or ganon, with a good deal of landing lag). You might want to go with fair depending on how you want to follow up, but this is pretty nice.

Ledgehopped Blaster and Blaster Plank
This is really good. The bayonet keeps people off of you as you come up, making it pretty safe. Use it on opponents that are further away from you when you're getting back on stage. You can also blaster plank, by dropping down, jumping and using blaster while using the small momentum boost to move yourself away from the stage, and then upB to the ledge. The bayonet can get someone close by and the laser will annoy your opponent, forcing them to come closer to the ledge, in which case you can just scar next time to get behind them.

Ledgehopped upB
It's just one of those things that is so incredibly dumb that the opponent doesn't usually see it coming. If they do see it coming, they usually forget about the kick at the very end and end up getting hit because they think it's like Fox or Falco's. It's quite dumb but works sometimes against some people. I guess you can kinda sense who it will work against and with who it won't, I don't recomend it though...
So basically this is to make people feel bad about getting hit by upB.

Obviously, you can mix up ledge games a lot, and while some of these are a lot more practical than others, you can use them all for mindgames. Some are stage specific to an extent, so keep that in mind.


JAB MIXUPS

They can all be avoided, but once again, they're mixups. These are to keep your opponent guessing. A quick note on the jab, the first hit keeps the opponent in close, while the second one pushes them a little bit further out. This is important, because stuff like utilt won't work after the second hit too well. Boost smash is usually your best 'follow up' out of each one, unless otherwise mentioned. Once again, input is appreciated.

jab grab
More effective than jab jab grab because the second jab pushes them back, but both can work. Do this when your opponent shields too much, hopefully it will convince them to do otherwise. You can attempt to use this as a grab release chain, but it's very escapable.

jab dsmash
This is for the kill, obviously. Two jabs puts the opponent a bit further so you can hit them with the better part of dsmash when they're initially in very close, but one jab is better otherwise.

jab dtilt ftilt
The ftilt won't hit at higher percents, but this is something thats been covered before. Probably the best mixup available for Wolf at lower %s IMO.

jab jab dtilt
Second jab gives you more room for the dtilt, making it a bit safer than jab dtilt ftilt. You can follow it with boost smash if you want, too.

jab jab retreating fair
I don't use this much, but it's a good option if you want to get out of there before a shieldgrab. Fair can also shield poke sometimes, so if the jabs sap their shield a bit it can hit so long as they're tall enough.

utilt jab
At low %s you can utilt into jab on most characters, then work from there. If you do three jabs after utilt the last one sometimes won't hit, so try an angled ftilt. Just watch out for people that have quick/momentum halting dairs, they'll probably hit you out of it. Not really a 'jab mixup' but whatever.

utilt shine
This is the same as above, but if you're expecting a counterattack when they're coming down from utilt or if you just feel like it. Can lead into a ftilt nicely since they'll (hopefully) be airborne and unable to shieldrape you. Not really a 'jab mixup' just like the one before, but still functions as a 'boxing' tactic at low %s

jab utilt
Generally a bad idea. You have better options out of a jab, unless your opponent is REALLY confused.

jab shine
Also generally a bad idea, but this can work if someone is trying to interrupt your jab combo for whatever reason. It does less damage than the full jab combo (which is guaranteed btw) and is a lot more risky, plus it gets outclassed by jab grab on shields. Just something to mention in case you want to feel cool or whatever.


STUFF THAT WILL BE IMPROVED OVER TIME (hopefully)

COMBOS
Yes wolf has true combos. Practical ones:
Shine > Jab - exactly what it sounds like. Tasty.
FF uair > utilt - can also go into usmash at some %s. Better on larger enemies, at very low %s they can reach the ground and shield before your followup sometimes, but that's not too common.
SHFF Bair > **** stuff - going into jab always works, and after getting a few % (like 5) on the opponent, fsmash works as well. Any tilt also works, as does boost smash. Just keep in mind, the opponent can DI up to make it harder to connect, and if your bair gets shielded that fsmash is getting punished, so don't go on autopilot.
Fthrow > buffered dtilt (trip) > stutterstepped fsmash - JJ came up with this, works on heavies at very low %s, but might as well know it anyways.


GIMPS
Yes, wolf does more than just get gimped.
Bayonet gimp - you jump out there and smack them in the face with the blaster's bayonet, and then they hit the blaster shot which stops them and makes them lose some vertical height. Pretty much sends your opponent horizontal, an interesting option.
Shine gimp - nothing new, if you shine a spacie below the ledge you can use the 4 frame advantage to get to the ledge before them. Sometimes you might want to go with two, and be careful doing it against a fellow wolf. It's also my preferred option against tether users, to drop down and shine them.
Spike - yeah it works , but make sure you can still recover after it. Also, if you opponent airdodges it, you're probably in real trouble.
Bair - if your opponent can DI up this isn't that useful... still has good damage though.
Blaster - you can FH blaster and then blaster once again coming down to annoy people who are recovering, it's actually pretty good but doesn't gimp them alone, only gets them low enough to set up for other gimps while possibly racking up some damage. If they airdodge both, they will probably be below the stage, so it's a useful tool.


Other notes of limited importance:
Dtilt can flow into a 'tippered' ftilt pretty nicely at low %s, especially when dtilt trips. Grab releases can lead into jabs or a dtilt, but this is risky as it can be shielded (on some characters a jump break can combo into side B, such as marth). Weak hits of nair can lead into ground 'combos', but this only works if you hit them with one of the hits that has hitstun right before landing, generally a risky thing to attempt since nair can be countered easily by an intelligent opponent. Utilt's hitbox is pretty much all of wolf.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Jun 27, 2008
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Europe
Try jab mixup in training mode first. Some of that stuff can be even escaped by merely jumping...
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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May 20, 2008
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Yeah I know, but sometimes people attempt to counterattack you on the way down, or just don't jump for whatever reason. A lot of the jab mixups I posted are near useless, but since they're unpredicted you could still attempt them. I tried a lot of these against level 9 CPUs (not in training, in an actual match), and they fall for it sometimes. Then again they always airdodge instantly after getting hit, so that might be why they had enough time to fall into certain attacks.

Feel free to tell me which ones are very easy to jump out of, but some could still be useful if the timing for the jump is very small. I don't have Brawl access until saturday, so I won't be able to test much until then.
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
7,292
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Land's End (NorCal)
Bump.

Seriously people, I tried all of these and they're all usable, I just need feedback on what has been working best for other people and against which characters and what scenarios, this would be a lot more helpful and informative if someone who has good experience with these things put in input. Any thoughts?
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
BRoomer
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
7,292
Location
Land's End (NorCal)
I've tried everything out, and they're all more than possible, except for the last one, which is probably a bad idea unless you're high (jab>utilt). I mean that one can work too, but only if you completely catch your opponent off guard. All the other ones with utilt work fine, I can say that with a good amount of certainty. There might be some attacks quick enough to hit you out of it, but I haven't tested that yet. Maybe when JimboCav has all the framerates done, he can look into these if he has the time, and put in the amount of frames where an attack or something can be inputed. Keep in mind though anything with utilt will work best at low percents.

Don't forget to try out the options from the ledge too, its easy to end up on the ledge so its good to know what you can do and when.
 
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