Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
First off I can't guarantee all these things will work all the time because honestly I haven't been able to play my Marth much against people lately due to my location and school. However all of these should work at least some of the time, and some of them all of the time.
Anyway, most Marths don't really seem to use pivoting much, and I don't know if it's because it's too hard or if they just haven't thought about how to use it, so I thought I'd make a thread. When I say pivoting I'm generally talking about the DA dash method, where you pivot into the neutral stance. You can of course do many attacks by just timing, for instance, the C-stick on the proper frame during a dash dance, but this is more difficult IMO and less broadly applicable. For anyone who doesn't know how to pivot, I'll give a brief description. During a dash dance or Fox trot, quickly tap the stick in the opposite direction, but briefly enough that the stick rapidly returns to the neutral position. This will cancel your dash in the opposite direction into the neutral stance. You may find pivoting is very difficult at first, but with practice and the right kind of controller you should be able to master it and start using. What do I mean by the right kind of controller? Well, the ease or difficulty of pivoting depends greatly on the nature of your control stick. If you have a very loose stick you will find pivoting is extremely difficult. Pivoting is generally easier on NEW controllers. However, it's even easier on the older style of gamecube controllers. The older gamecube controllers have a slightly different control stick design (you can't tell without taking the controller apart) that affects how they deteriorate over time. Whereas most newer controllers will deteriorate into a very loose configuration, these older controllers will sometimes stiffen up on the edges, while loosening in the middle. This is ideal for tilts and pivoting, but bad for other things (like dash dancing). For me though it's definitely worth the tradeoff, although I have to use a different controller for Fox. These older controllers are generally the blue ones, and you can probably find a used one at Gamestop or something. You can definitely pivot with the newer controllers, but I find I can only do it with near 100% consistency with this very old messed up blue controller I have.
One more note on technique: You can greatly extend the range of where you can pivot by letting go of the stick while Marth still has some momentum. For instance dash left, hold the stick left for maybe 15 frames (before it makes you go into the run animation), let go of the stick, Marth will continue to dash, and you can still pivot. In this way you can dash a long way before pivoting.
Anyway, I'd like this thread to be a discussion primarily on USES of pivoting rather than technique, but you can ask technique questions if you want and I'll try to answer them. Also, please feel free to contribute new thoughts about the uses of pivoting, because it's very possible I've missed some very obvious things. So, onto the uses.
Retreating SH Autocancelled nair: Very useful as a defensive technique. When your opponent approaches, dash back, pivot a jump, then SH nair ASAP. Slam the stick away from your opponent as soon as you hit A. If you do it fast enough you don't need to L-cancel, and if you fast-fall at the right height the nair will cover the front of Marth entirely. This is a highly, highly spammable defensive move, and since there's zero lag you can immediately go into anything else.
Retreating SH double fair: Useful in similar fashion to retreating nairs, but I don't use this as much since there is a small window of vulnerability between fairs. Also it doesn't auto-cancel and you can't fast-fall it, so it takes longer than the retreating nair.
Pivoted FJ bair approach: Dash towards your opponent, then pivot and do a FJ bair at the appropriate distance to tip the bair. Do the bair immediately or you won't hit shorter characters like Fox. I'm not sure exactly which characters this will hit as I haven't tested on some of the low tiers, but it definitely hits anyone as tall as Fox or taller. If the bair hits it will often combo into fair, uair, etc. If it doesn't hit you can either cross over your opponent or DI back while doing fairs to protect yourself. This is an interesting approach I think because it has a better range than fairs and you can still maintain your spacing to protect yourself if you miss.
Pivot grab: Necessary for chaingrabbing Fox and Falco. Also sometimes easier to land than a regular grab.
Wavedash to dash to pivot grab: Wavedash toward your opponent, immediately dash behind them, and pivot grab. Similar to the Tree grab but IMO easier.
Ledge dash to pivot grab / fsmash: When Marth's on the edge your opponent will sometimes stand far from the edge waiting for you to ledge dash on or jump on. If you immediately dash from the ledgedash behind them you can often get in a grab or fsmash.
Pivot jab: The main use of pivot jab is to punish a flubbed tech by forcing your opponent into the slow-standup animation. I don't know the percentages but generally at lower damages your opponent will slow-standup, and there seems to be a correlation between character fall speed and how long this will work. Otherwise the jab will pop them up with very little lag. You will still be safe from attack due to Marth's range but you might not be able to combo from the pivot jab. Pivot jab is also somewhat spammable as a retreating maneuver, just to get your opponent off you. Doesn't combo and has limited use in this regard though.
Pivoted tipper: This is the big one, the main reason to learn to pivot. In addition to randomly fsmashing from dash dance you can actually combo a lot of things into pivoted tipper, even if your opponent DIs appropriately. Some of these combos are uair => pivoted tipper (combos at different percentages based on character fall speed, DI, and whether the uair tips), utilt => pivoted tipper, fair => pivoted tipper (sweet spotted or not, depending), nair => pivoted tipper (generally if floaties DI away at lowish damage), dair => pivoted tipper (when opponent is on the ground, obviously), dash attack => pivoted tipper, fthrow => pivoted tipper (kills semifloaties very well, even if they DI away, just chase them and pivot tipper), uthrow => pivoted tipper (on fast fallers at appropriate damage, even with no DI). Pivoted tipper is also good for tech-chasing, especially rolls toward the edge. If opponent flubs a tech in range of jab or pivot jab, you can jab to force the slow stand up, then pivot a tipper. Also pivoted tippers are more spammable than regular tippers since you can do it out of dash-dance at random times. Still, you probably shouldn't do it randomly unless you're punishing some lag or something. Note you can immediately charge the pivoted fsmash in either direction if you use C-stick + Z or C-stick + A.
Pivoted tilts: Specifically utilt and dtilt are very useful. However quickly pivoting the utilt is extremely difficult. The dtilt is somewhat easier but still next to impossible to do without a delay of quite a few frames between the neutral stance and the dtilt.
Pivoting as general supplement to movement: Mix it in with dash dancing and wavedashing to make yourself more fluid and unpredictable. Pivoting into a reverse wavedash looks really cool and has limited use (quickly edgehogging, spacing) but is probably more difficult than it's worth.
Pivoting for general spacing: Since you stop exactly where you pivot this is the most precise way to control your spacing. Of course you shouldn't stop spacing with other methods as well.
So these are some of the things I use pivoting for. I'd like to get some input on additional uses, discussion of these uses, and possibly more specific comboing information. I'd especially like input from people who are actually good (unlike me) to give this thread some credibility.
Anyway, most Marths don't really seem to use pivoting much, and I don't know if it's because it's too hard or if they just haven't thought about how to use it, so I thought I'd make a thread. When I say pivoting I'm generally talking about the DA dash method, where you pivot into the neutral stance. You can of course do many attacks by just timing, for instance, the C-stick on the proper frame during a dash dance, but this is more difficult IMO and less broadly applicable. For anyone who doesn't know how to pivot, I'll give a brief description. During a dash dance or Fox trot, quickly tap the stick in the opposite direction, but briefly enough that the stick rapidly returns to the neutral position. This will cancel your dash in the opposite direction into the neutral stance. You may find pivoting is very difficult at first, but with practice and the right kind of controller you should be able to master it and start using. What do I mean by the right kind of controller? Well, the ease or difficulty of pivoting depends greatly on the nature of your control stick. If you have a very loose stick you will find pivoting is extremely difficult. Pivoting is generally easier on NEW controllers. However, it's even easier on the older style of gamecube controllers. The older gamecube controllers have a slightly different control stick design (you can't tell without taking the controller apart) that affects how they deteriorate over time. Whereas most newer controllers will deteriorate into a very loose configuration, these older controllers will sometimes stiffen up on the edges, while loosening in the middle. This is ideal for tilts and pivoting, but bad for other things (like dash dancing). For me though it's definitely worth the tradeoff, although I have to use a different controller for Fox. These older controllers are generally the blue ones, and you can probably find a used one at Gamestop or something. You can definitely pivot with the newer controllers, but I find I can only do it with near 100% consistency with this very old messed up blue controller I have.
One more note on technique: You can greatly extend the range of where you can pivot by letting go of the stick while Marth still has some momentum. For instance dash left, hold the stick left for maybe 15 frames (before it makes you go into the run animation), let go of the stick, Marth will continue to dash, and you can still pivot. In this way you can dash a long way before pivoting.
Anyway, I'd like this thread to be a discussion primarily on USES of pivoting rather than technique, but you can ask technique questions if you want and I'll try to answer them. Also, please feel free to contribute new thoughts about the uses of pivoting, because it's very possible I've missed some very obvious things. So, onto the uses.
Retreating SH Autocancelled nair: Very useful as a defensive technique. When your opponent approaches, dash back, pivot a jump, then SH nair ASAP. Slam the stick away from your opponent as soon as you hit A. If you do it fast enough you don't need to L-cancel, and if you fast-fall at the right height the nair will cover the front of Marth entirely. This is a highly, highly spammable defensive move, and since there's zero lag you can immediately go into anything else.
Retreating SH double fair: Useful in similar fashion to retreating nairs, but I don't use this as much since there is a small window of vulnerability between fairs. Also it doesn't auto-cancel and you can't fast-fall it, so it takes longer than the retreating nair.
Pivoted FJ bair approach: Dash towards your opponent, then pivot and do a FJ bair at the appropriate distance to tip the bair. Do the bair immediately or you won't hit shorter characters like Fox. I'm not sure exactly which characters this will hit as I haven't tested on some of the low tiers, but it definitely hits anyone as tall as Fox or taller. If the bair hits it will often combo into fair, uair, etc. If it doesn't hit you can either cross over your opponent or DI back while doing fairs to protect yourself. This is an interesting approach I think because it has a better range than fairs and you can still maintain your spacing to protect yourself if you miss.
Pivot grab: Necessary for chaingrabbing Fox and Falco. Also sometimes easier to land than a regular grab.
Wavedash to dash to pivot grab: Wavedash toward your opponent, immediately dash behind them, and pivot grab. Similar to the Tree grab but IMO easier.
Ledge dash to pivot grab / fsmash: When Marth's on the edge your opponent will sometimes stand far from the edge waiting for you to ledge dash on or jump on. If you immediately dash from the ledgedash behind them you can often get in a grab or fsmash.
Pivot jab: The main use of pivot jab is to punish a flubbed tech by forcing your opponent into the slow-standup animation. I don't know the percentages but generally at lower damages your opponent will slow-standup, and there seems to be a correlation between character fall speed and how long this will work. Otherwise the jab will pop them up with very little lag. You will still be safe from attack due to Marth's range but you might not be able to combo from the pivot jab. Pivot jab is also somewhat spammable as a retreating maneuver, just to get your opponent off you. Doesn't combo and has limited use in this regard though.
Pivoted tipper: This is the big one, the main reason to learn to pivot. In addition to randomly fsmashing from dash dance you can actually combo a lot of things into pivoted tipper, even if your opponent DIs appropriately. Some of these combos are uair => pivoted tipper (combos at different percentages based on character fall speed, DI, and whether the uair tips), utilt => pivoted tipper, fair => pivoted tipper (sweet spotted or not, depending), nair => pivoted tipper (generally if floaties DI away at lowish damage), dair => pivoted tipper (when opponent is on the ground, obviously), dash attack => pivoted tipper, fthrow => pivoted tipper (kills semifloaties very well, even if they DI away, just chase them and pivot tipper), uthrow => pivoted tipper (on fast fallers at appropriate damage, even with no DI). Pivoted tipper is also good for tech-chasing, especially rolls toward the edge. If opponent flubs a tech in range of jab or pivot jab, you can jab to force the slow stand up, then pivot a tipper. Also pivoted tippers are more spammable than regular tippers since you can do it out of dash-dance at random times. Still, you probably shouldn't do it randomly unless you're punishing some lag or something. Note you can immediately charge the pivoted fsmash in either direction if you use C-stick + Z or C-stick + A.
Pivoted tilts: Specifically utilt and dtilt are very useful. However quickly pivoting the utilt is extremely difficult. The dtilt is somewhat easier but still next to impossible to do without a delay of quite a few frames between the neutral stance and the dtilt.
Pivoting as general supplement to movement: Mix it in with dash dancing and wavedashing to make yourself more fluid and unpredictable. Pivoting into a reverse wavedash looks really cool and has limited use (quickly edgehogging, spacing) but is probably more difficult than it's worth.
Pivoting for general spacing: Since you stop exactly where you pivot this is the most precise way to control your spacing. Of course you shouldn't stop spacing with other methods as well.
So these are some of the things I use pivoting for. I'd like to get some input on additional uses, discussion of these uses, and possibly more specific comboing information. I'd especially like input from people who are actually good (unlike me) to give this thread some credibility.
