Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

itsthebigfoot · Sep 13, 2008

ok, this board has no matchup thread, since ripple stopped running his and brahma disappeared (forever, he's dead, never coming back, and its probably your fault) I'll make the new thread, and hopefully a mod will come by and sticky it (i'd prefer to do this on AiB cause i can mod the threads there)

so here it is, super official matchup thread, right now it'll be a bunch of characters with *covered later under them

Bowsah

6-4

Captain Falcon
*covered later

Diddy

45-55

I don't agree with it, even the diddy boards said dk adv until ninjalink inflated there heads

DK ----

Falco

4.5-5.5

Summary: he will camp the hell out of you
he will camp the hell out of you because it's all he can do.
if he cgs you, save your second jump until after the spike, you will survive
he cannot spike you out of upb, if you see him going for a spike, upb right there
if he hits you with a nair, SDI back and punish with an upb
don't rely on bair approaches, the laser wins, go for ftilt instead.
he is gimpable, stick a dair in front of his sideb trajectory
don't roll behind the fsmash, thats where the sweetspot is

cp luigis mansion or brinstar

Fox
* covered later

Ganon
* covered later

Ice climbers

4-6 w/nana alive 7-3 when she dies, slight dk advantage all around.

two things you should note are 1. downb separates nana from popo 2. the main objective in this match is to separate them, throw nana off the ledge, and hit her until she goes away. fair works best. after you gimp nana, the matchup becomes MUCH easier, so the objective in this match is to gimp nana ASAP, because, if you can, the matchup is in your favor.

Ripple said:
alright guys let me first say that this match up is most likely 55-45 for the ICs and we probably know why its slightly in their favor. *coughchaingrabtospikecough* you may be thinking that this match up is impossible and if your inexperienced, it is. you must limit the moves you use in this match up very strictly.

the order of most to least movers used in this match are as follows.

1st. Down B
2nd. D tilt
3rd. SA Punch
4th. Grounded Up B
5th. bair
6th. F smash

do not use any other move unless circumstances call for it such as the ICs being on a platform(up smash) or the shield is severely diminished(side b). you must make sure to hit with these attacks or you may be heavily punished for it.

move discussion and explanation

you're probably wondering to yourself "why do we have to limit our move set so much Rip?" well, I'll tell you why. its because you MUST use attacks that don't have much lag or they have an insane about of shield pressure otherwise you are going to get grabbed, and the above moves are the only ones that are good enough for the job. lets discuss each one now.

1. Down B: this move should basically be spammed as a back the hell away and as a tech chase after you hit them with another move. It has an insane amount of pressure and can be punished, but only from the air. very nice damage(14%) and hits them up into the air, the worst place for the climbers. also out spaces the blizzard by ICs. this is your saving grace in this match up.

2. D tilt: another very important move in this match up. starts fast, ends fast does about 9% and has the possibility of tripping which leads to Down b or tech chased grounded up which is 40% right there. I do not recommend using F tilt because there is more lag for that 1% more. stick with the d tilt.

3. SA Punch: the perfect move in this match but sadly, it must be charged and you are not going to get much charging done in this match. This move has SA, insane reach, insane shield pressure, 29% damage, can be pivoted, and kills around 90% and can hopefully hit nana if they power shield it. any chance you get to charge this, do it. it will save your *** many times.

4th. grounded UP B. What do Ics love to do to us that make us pissed off? they approach shield our attacks and grab. not anymore my friends. if you ever see an ICs player running at you the first thing that I should see is a grounded up b moving towards them.(or ground pound)

5th. bair: you should know when to use this by now if you play DK

6th. F smash: yeah crazy right? not so much. while this attack is slow. if you charge it, it gets good. if you ever find yourself to close for comfort CHARGE a F smash about 1/4 to 1/3 of full. this for some reason adds a ridiculous amount of knock back and shield pressure. it basically becomes a little worse version of SA Punch. ALWAYS, ALWAYS CHARGE THIS WHEN YOU USE IT!

what can Ics do to litlle ol' DK?

They can **** and Pillage you in the face!
you should know the drill by now, don't get grabbed or you will most likely lose a stock. you really need to focus on what you do and when. Don't not think for even a second. always think about what he can do to you. and what limited move you have that can stop that. general problems I here are...

that blizzard does like 30% and can be spammed by desyncing them and alternating short hopped down B's that basically make a impenetrable wall of destruction.

DK can not jump over the ICs and punish them instead DK must use down b or SA punch to hit them or you can just jump over them anyway and let it go unpunished to get better spacing. this is your call

These ICs know how to play DK, they play using aerials!

good, that's how we want them. every move becomes available when they realize they can't grab you. which turns the match into your favor.

Should I try grabbing and cargo tossing? it seems like a good idea to get them separated
I honestly never go for the grab them unless they are already desynced. and when I do it is usually a pivot grab so its not so obvious.

How do I punish their side b when it is used?
Don't try. I'm serious. for some reason when they are both together this thing has almost no lag and anything you do out of shield will be power shielded by them including d smash.

when there is only one using it and you get hit you can still punish with a grab or d smash for some reason.

when I get grabbed they just spike me. help?

learn to Smash DI. this will let you live until 180% against them and will also allow you to hit the stage when they attempt to spike you. allowing you to tech.

I would have some videos of me vs chewyy that were done today but most of them were just black because part of the cable to record fell out. I do however have 2. I'll get those later

Ike 6-4
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193883&page=55 ussi's long post

Jiggs
* covered later

King Dedede bad

Kirby

5-5

Link
* covered later

Lucario

6-4

Summary: This is a match between the two most momentum based characters in the game, keep that in mind

Tips: ftilt clanks with the aura sphere until very late (the 100s range)
you out range him a bit, use that to your advantage
wiggle out of the sideb cg, you an break out before 20%
use the SA punch a lot, it helps in this matchup
you will get combo'd, don't let it get to you
try to get the first hit, it helps a lot
your usmash has more range than his dair, challenge him, you'll win.
go for early kills, don't let him live past 110
he has startup lag on most of his ground stuff, use that to your advantage.
rely on your ledge pressure game, it can help you get the early kills you need

Lucas
* covered later

Luigi
commence with the talking and such

Mario
* covered later

Martha

6-4

Summary: you outrange him, abuse that
you kill him very early
watch out for dairs off the ledge
bairs in the air work well
cp brinstar, japes if they ban brinstar

Metaknight

5-5

The tornado hurts a lot, however, if he approaches with it, you have 4-5 options to take it out (punch, ftilt, fsmash, dtilt, sometimes downb). if he uses it up close, you can SDI up and escape. if you do get caught in it, hold up and mash b, you're upb will break out, try to find somewhere safe to land.
SDI is important, if you can sdi the fair, you can punissh with a punch or a fast falled upb,also ftilt if you're near the ground.
Specials are important, the SA on your neutral b breaks a lot of his attacks, downb forces him to approach from the air, which is good because his air speed is terrible. (he can technically run at you and fair, but if you SDI it and punch him, he kinda stops doing that). GFSC headbutt allows you to punish the glide attack with 14% and a kill move.
Watch out for dair gimps, if he gimps you you lose your weight advantage
don't be afraid of him, your bair beats his aerials, and you outrange him on the ground.
DI properly and you'll live forever, you're really heavy, he's pretty light, don't be surprised to see your stock last past 160 if you di

Gdubs

6-4

tips:
use SA a lot
you can gimp him, which is rare for gdubs matchups
if he dthrows, move, you can make it out before he leads into something else if you're quick
start using kill moves when he's in the 50's-60's, they'll work
If you lose, counterpick Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, or maybe corneria if you're gutsy and it's legal. do not pick brinstar

Ness
* covered later

Oli

4-6

i don't agree with it, you all need to play more olimars, spam upb and downb, ko early, gg

Peach

5-5

Pikachu 45-55 for now, unfortunately pikachus live were dks don't, get more later, once we actually find out wtf we're doing

Pit
* covered later

Pokemon Trainer
* covered later

ROB

5-5

Summary: remember those blowup clowns that you got as a kid? the ones that kept popping back up no matter how hard you hit them, with that big stupid grin on there faces. the ones that infuriated you so much that you started throwing rocks at it until one punched a hole in it and the thing deflated. thats rob for you, no matter how many time you land a bair square in his robot face, he's gonna recover. luckily for you, you don't die for longer, and fair can kill him. you will get camped in this matchup, and if you haven't learned to deal with it, this match can be quite hard, but once you learn to get around it, the matchups not so bad.

Tips
Grab the gyro, your glide toss is a free approach.
juggle him, he can't do anything when you're below him
powershield the laser, this helps a lot
plan for him to spotdodge, stay back a bit and downb or sideb
gimp with fair, its the only thing that can actually gimp him.
DI, di the dsmash up, di nairs and upsmash away, you won't di for a long time
watch out for bairs, they're pretty easy to see coming though

Counterpicks
Japes
Brinstar

Samus
* covered later

Sheik
* covered later

Snake

5.5-4.5

Summary: dk can do a lot of dumb things against snake, go for throws, all your throws, this is the one matchup where dthrow is not as good as uthrow. the point of the throws is to get snake off the stage so you can run him down, bthrow works best. you got a weight/kill power advantage as well, especially since you can get a kill at around 60% with a grab remotely near a ledge, simply cargo - dthrow - spike. Also, Downb works very well against campy snakes, if he's dropping nades, downb, he has to jump or run away.

Stages: Jungle Japes, Brinstar, and Rainbow Cruise

Sonic
* covered later

Tink
* covered later

Wario

4-6

Summary: it's not because of the cg, I could write an essay explaining the effects of his aerial movement when combined with his combo potential and killing power, but that can wait. update later

Wolf

6-4

Yoshi
* covered later

Zelda
* covered later

Zamus
* covered later

I'll update it with a nice format later

itsthebigfoot · Sep 13, 2008

Ok, the more i play game and watch, the dumber the match gets. your neutral b beats everything he has, and his moves are sooo telegraphed its dumb. the punch is abuseable in this match, try it. if he fairs, dairs, or nairs, punch, if he neutral b's run and punch, if he goes for a key, usmash, punch, or upb will work.

to top it off he dies at ridiculous percents, i think dk has the advantage in this match, thoughts?

magikguy · Sep 13, 2008

game and watch can kill you pretty fast also at a dmg dk aint suppose to die . also his neutral air is annoying since dk is so big can get you caught easily , other than that dk beats him in range , power i'd say 60/40 DK.

A2ZOMG · Sep 13, 2008

DK isn't disjointed. G&W is. If you badly space a Punch, you do realize you get hit. Right? The Punch also comes out SLOWER than G&W's Smash attacks (except the U-smash by a few frames), which are actually pretty slow in the first place. I bet it isn't even hard to PS the Giant Punch. Sure it takes a lot of balls, but if he PSes it, you won't like it.

G&W doesn't die ridiculously easily unless he plays dumb and spaces badly against a F-smash (and for the record, I think that one of the big problems about current G&W players is that they get lazy with their spacing, usually hoping the B-air shieldstabs). He actually survives longer than most characters due to his excellent recovery. DK actually is pretty lousy when it comes to kill moves. His kill moves are all unsafe on block or miss and can be punished by a fullhopped F-air.

G&W can juggle DK forever, and his N-air and U-air BOTH do 17%. U-air stall is very dangerous against DK due to his lack of aerial options besides the B-air and U-air.

D-tilt comes out frame 6 and has ZERO ending lag, and cancels or outprioritizes a lot of attacks. The only way you ever punish that is if he spams it repeatedly, which he's not likely going to do.

G&W also owns DK's recovery. Slowfall D-airs are GUARANTEED hits on DK's recovery (which sadly, most G&W players aren't used to). G&W's Up-B is also pretty much a near-guarenteed hit on DK's recovery.

A well spaced Chef can't be punished by DK by anything except by charging a punch. Working inside it is a chore if G&W is given space, which DK usually wants to maintain in this matchup.

I'd say the matchup is even at worst for G&W.

Like seriously, I do understand where you're coming from bigfoot. I own the average G&W with Ganondorf, because Ganondorf DOES in fact outrange G&W and kills him at low percents if given the chance (not to mention Flame Choke combos that do 22%). But I don't ever say that Ganondorf has the advantage cause that isn't true at all. I just play more gay than the average G&W player and capitalize on them making common mistakes. =/

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 13, 2008

Clear adv for game and watch. Approaching through his turtle is a royal pain. All of his multi hit attacks like bair or nair really hurt DK, 'cuz he has such a large hurtbox. If DK uses BownB, GaW uses Jump -> Dair...

The only good thing about this battle is GaWs weight...2nd lightest character in the game...

Use a lot of grabs and try to finish him asap...lol easier said than done..

BBQ° · Sep 13, 2008

In my opinion, DK has the advantage here by 60:40.

All it takes is learning how to fight G&W.

1. Power shield
2. Don't spot dodge
3. Kill early
4. Save back-throws
5. Use grounded up-b super armor
6. Use DK punch super armor for damage
7. Use DK punch 9 swing for early kills
8. Pick a stage like battlefield and stay below the platforms
9. Sakurai Combo
10. Down taunt

Ville · Sep 13, 2008

BBQ° said:
3. Kill early

Nice tip d00d xd

itsthebigfoot · Sep 13, 2008

A2ZOMG said:
DK isn't disjointed. G&W is. If you badly space a Punch, you do realize you get hit. Right? The Punch also comes out SLOWER than G&W's Smash attacks (except the U-smash by a few frames), which are actually pretty slow in the first place. I bet it isn't even hard to PS the Giant Punch. Sure it takes a lot of balls, but if he PSes it, you won't like it.

G&W doesn't die ridiculously easily unless he plays dumb and spaces badly against a F-smash (and for the record, I think that one of the big problems about current G&W players is that they get lazy with their spacing, usually hoping the B-air shieldstabs). He actually survives longer than most characters due to his excellent recovery. DK actually is pretty lousy when it comes to kill moves. His kill moves are all unsafe on block or miss and can be punished by a fullhopped F-air.

G&W can juggle DK forever, and his N-air and U-air BOTH do 17%. U-air stall is very dangerous against DK due to his lack of aerial options besides the B-air and U-air.

D-tilt comes out frame 6 and has ZERO ending lag, and cancels or outprioritizes a lot of attacks. The only way you ever punish that is if he spams it repeatedly, which he's not likely going to do.

G&W also owns DK's recovery. Slowfall D-airs are GUARANTEED hits on DK's recovery (which sadly, most G&W players aren't used to). G&W's Up-B is also pretty much a near-guarenteed hit on DK's recovery.

A well spaced Chef can't be punished by DK by anything except by charging a punch. Working inside it is a chore if G&W is given space, which DK usually wants to maintain in this matchup.

I'd say the matchup is even at worst for G&W.

Like seriously, I do understand where you're coming from bigfoot. I own the average G&W with Ganondorf, because Ganondorf DOES in fact outrange G&W and kills him at low percents if given the chance (not to mention Flame Choke combos that do 22%). But I don't ever say that Ganondorf has the advantage cause that isn't true at all. I just play more gay than the average G&W player and capitalize on them making common mistakes. =/

you do realize that dk can space attacks too right? and i say punch for his AIR attacks, which are all very telegraphed.

also, dk having lousy kill moves? are you high or have you never played a dk? dk has so many kill options its dumb, and a properly space punch, fsmash, and usmash are all safe on block, same with sweetspotted bairs, and utilts (though these will probably be diminished) uairs beat out the key (they're also safe on dodge, probably on block too but it hasn't really happened) his only unsafe kill moves are fair, dair, and dsmash, and even then you should rarely be using those, and dsmash is primarily for punishing.

for the recovery bit, again, are you playing the same dk? i usually do not need to upb until I'm at the ledge, or if i attack, in which case the initial 3 frames WILL beat out whatever attack is thrown at you. if you're gimping the dk consistently, he's doing something wrong.

as for gdubs dtilt, he has several active frames, so if he misses, you can land an fsmash, which, by the way, has more reach and higher priority than all of game and watch.

and for the juggling bit, if gdubs tries to juggle, it results in a dair to the face, fastfalling > uair, just because your little cousins dk doesn't know how to get down does not mean that that applies to good people.

as for that ganondorf bit, dk has more range, is faster, with as strong of kill moves as ganondorf, the fact that you bring up that ganondorf has a range advantage (which he doesn't) and dk doesn't tells me a lot.

btw, to avoid confusion, dk is that one character to the right of mario, you should try using him once before you post dumb crap on his boards. he's the giant monkey with a tie, try him out

A2ZOMG · Sep 13, 2008

itsthebigfoot said:
also, dk having lousy kill moves? are you high or have you never played a dk? dk has so many kill options its dumb, and a properly space punch, fsmash, and usmash are all safe on block, same with sweetspotted bairs, and utilts (though these will probably be diminished) uairs beat out the key (they're also safe on dodge, probably on block too but it hasn't really happened) his only unsafe kill moves are fair, dair, and dsmash, and even then you should rarely be using those, and dsmash is primarily for punishing.

F-smash is too slow and no, it's unsafe on block or miss since G&W can punish that with a fullhopped F-air. It's so slow that it can be powershielded on reaction. U-smash doesn't hit unless G&W is directly above. U-air is extremely easy to see coming and can be punished on miss by a N-air. D-smash is legitimately the best one, but is also unsafe on block. B-air doesn't kill unless it's fresh.

I recently 3stocked a DK at S&C on FD with G&W. DK's kill moves are lousy. Like seriously. I know that G&W himself is a predictable character, but DK when it comes to killing is either predictable or slow.

for the recovery bit, again, are you playing the same dk? i usually do not need to upb until I'm at the ledge, or if i attack, in which case the initial 3 frames WILL beat out whatever attack is thrown at you. if you're gimping the dk consistently, he's doing something wrong.

I never said I was gimping DK. I said it was easy to ledgeguard him, and by that, what I mean is deal damage to him at the very least. Slowfall D-air is a free hit if he recovers from below, and that can spike his Up-B or stagespike him against the stage if G&W does it right. Up-B or N-air is a pretty free hit if DK recovers from above. The Super armor doesn't last particularly long, so you have to have good timing with the Up-B. Also, G&W has the ability to jump out reeeeealy far from the stage, where DK can't safely Up-B, and F-air him from there.

as for gdubs dtilt, he has several active frames, so if he misses, you can land an fsmash, which, by the way, has more reach and higher priority than all of game and watch.

You can't punish him for throwing out ONE d-tilt. The attack has zero ending lag after the hitbox and doesn't last much longer than the average spot dodge, so he can shield or whatever after the attack ends. The only time it ever gets punished is if he's spamming it, which he shouldn't do.

and for the juggling bit, if gdubs tries to juggle, it results in a dair to the face, fastfalling > uair, just because your little cousins dk doesn't know how to get down does not mean that that applies to good people.

Up-B >>> D-air. No exceptions. U-air stall >>> D-air. No exceptions either, and U-air stalling ANY attack results in punishment for the person stalled.

as for that ganondorf bit, dk has more range, is faster, with as strong of kill moves as ganondorf, the fact that you bring up that ganondorf has a range advantage (which he doesn't) and dk doesn't tells me a lot.

The fact you didn't know that Ganondorf has a range advantage on G&W tells me a lot. I can punish all of G&W's attacks with well spaced attacks with Ganondorf. Ganondorf in fact attacks faster than G&W too, and has a ton of guarenteed combos on him. So what? Ganondorf still loses and I'm well aware of that. Just because DK has more range doesn't mean he actually controls the matchup, and mind you, you can hit his hand when he attacks and that counts as a hit because his he isn't Snake.

btw, to avoid confusion, dk is that one character to the right of mario, you should try using him once before you post dumb crap on his boards. he's the giant monkey with a tie, try him out

I've used him before, and I'm like one of few people who thought he wasn't terrible when Brawl came out. But like seriously, you explain to me how a character can lose to Fox, one of the worst characters in the game (in case you didn't know, Fox is also extremely lightweight, which you seem to think is a big deal), but somehow have the advantage vs the 3 best characters in the game. It doesn't add up AT ALL, and you should think more carefully about your matchups.

Also you forget that G&W is quite capable of killing DK at low percents. His Smashes if done right cannot be powershielded due to instant charge release, and they only have ten frames ending lag after the hitbox.

Ripple · Sep 13, 2008

A2ZOMG said:
F-smash is too slow and no, it's unsafe on block or miss since G&W can punish that with a fullhopped F-air. It's so slow that it can be powershielded on reaction. U-smash doesn't hit unless G&W is directly above. U-air is extremely easy to see coming. D-smash is legitimately the best one, but is also unsafe on block. B-air doesn't kill unless it's fresh.

what are you talking about? d smash is very safe
bair can kill even after 5 hit diminishes since G&W is like the second lightest character in the game

I recently 3stocked a DK at S&C on FD with G&W. DK's kill moves are lousy.

just because you can 3 stock someone, it does not mean that character is bad at doing something. I've 3 stocked a snake before does that mean snake is bad at killing? I've also 3 stocked a DDD, does that mean he's bad at grabbing?hell no

I never said I was gimping DK. I said it was easy to ledgeguard him, and by that, what I mean is deal damage to him at the very least. Slowfall D-air is a free hit if he recovers from below, and that can spike his Up-B or stagespike him against the stage if G&W does it right. Up-B or N-air is a pretty free hit if DK recovers from above. The Super armor doesn't last particularly long, so you have to have good timing with the Up-B. Also, G&W has the ability to jump out reeeeealy far from the stage, where DK can't safely Up-B, and F-air him from there.

the only time DK will ever fair is when he's super far from the ledge..

You can't punish him for throwing out ONE d-tilt. The attack has zero ending lag after the hitbox and doesn't last much longer than the average spot dodge, so he can shield or whatever after the attack ends. The only time it ever gets punished is if he's spamming it, which he shouldn't do.

yes you can.

Up-B >>> D-air. No exceptions. U-air stall >>> D-air. No exceptions either, and U-air stalling ANY attack results in punishment for the person stalled.

not true at all

The fact you didn't know that Ganondorf has a range advantage on G&W tells me a lot. I can punish all of G&W's attacks with well spaced attacks with Ganondorf. Ganondorf in fact attacks faster than G&W too, and has a ton of guarenteed combos on him. So what? Ganondorf still loses and I'm well aware of that. Just because DK has more range doesn't mean he actually controls the matchup, and mind you, you can hit his hand when he attacks and that counts as a hit because his he isn't Snake.

WTF? ganon does not have a range advantage over G&W; I admit that ganon's f tilt and d-tilt do have good range but that doesn't make him over all more ranged. G&w's bair has great reach along with his tilts and smashes

I've used him before, and I'm like one of few people who thought he wasn't terrible when Brawl came out. But like seriously, you explain to me how a character can lose to Fox, one of the worst characters in the game (in case you didn't know, Fox is also extremely lightweight, which you seem to think is a big deal), but somehow have the advantage vs the 3 best characters in the game. It doesn't add up AT ALL, and you should think more carefully about your matchups.

are you seriously that stupid that you don't know that even some of the best characters have a bad match up and that it can be against a low tier character? take a look at melee peach, she had a disadvantage against Y. link. one of the "worst" characters in the game. it doesn't seem to make sense since peach was one of the best characters in the game and countered Falcon(#5 character) falco(#2 character), Ics'(#6 or #7 ) and went even with the others but it was true.

A2ZOMG · Sep 13, 2008

Ripple said:
just because you can 3 stock someone, it does not mean that character is bad at doing something. I've 3 stocked a snake before does that mean snake is bad at killing? I've also 3 stocked a DDD, does that mean he's bad at grabbing?hell no

Snake has a 4-5 frame U-tilt that he doesn't have trouble keeping undiminished. DK's kill moves (except an undiminished U-air or B-air) are ALL slower than G&W's Smashes which are blockable on reaction, and they have significantly more ending lag.

the only time DK will ever fair is when he's super far from the ledge..

Unlikely that will save him. That means he is going to recover fairly low, meaning G&W can go back to the stage and set up a D-air.

yes you can.

Maybe you can attempt to time an attack BEFORE G&W uses a D-tilt and just HOPE he doesn't shield.

What you can't do is see G&W using a D-tilt, and THEN initiate an attack to punish him immediately afterwards. That doesn't work at all, and thanks to zero ending lag, he can shield right after the hitbox is done.

not true at all

You're wrong. Sorry. Up-B has invincibility frames, and U-air has a hitbox equal to more than 2 DK D-airs in height. If you don't believe that any specific character is at a significant disadvantage when they are below G&W, you need to play better G&Ws.

WTF? ganon does not have a range advantage over G&W; I admit that ganon's f tilt and d-tilt do have good range but that doesn't make him over all more ranged. G&w's bair has great reach along with his tilts and smashes

No, he does. I've played this matchup a lot. F-tilt slightly outranges the B-air so it can trade hits. F-air and U-air outranges all of G&W's aerials. U-smash can trade hits with some of G&W's aerials occasionally. D-tilt outranges all of G&W's ground attacks and beats G&W's D-tilt. Flame Choke can punish the ending lag of any of G&W's aerials. Same concept that applies in this matchup I guess you could say applies to the DK matchup, but that doesn't change that G&W has better priority since his hitboxes extent past his hurtbox.

are you seriously that stupid that you don't know that even some of the best characters have a bad match up and that it can be against a low tier character? take a look at melee peach, she had a disadvantage against Y. link. one of the "worst" characters in the game. it doesn't seem to make sense since peach was one of the best characters in the game and countered Fox(#1 character) falco(#2 character) and went even with the others but it was true.

Peach was NOT disadvantaged to YL. That's a myth. It was one of her more annoying matchups yes, but she still had the advantage. And Melee is a lot more balanced than Brawl you must realize. I'll add for any DK mains who think he was low tier back in Melee that DK wasn't even a low tier counter to characters like Samus or Fox because he was actually high tier in Melee. @_@

In Brawl, where it is less balanced, there are next to no low tier counters in comparison, if any. Most counterpicks exist WITHIN given tiers in this game.

itsthebigfoot · Sep 14, 2008

ok, first off, the universal truth of brawl is that if you two stock someone its cause your good, if you three stock someone its cause there bad. so you three stocking that dk means that you played a bad dk. I've three stocked a grand total of 16 game and watches, so going by your logic, the matchup must be extremely in my favor.

also, dk's kill moves are safe on block when space properly, so, if i hit you with dk's fingers on the fsmash, i'm not getting punished. if, for some reason, i don't decide to wait for gdubs to use a telegraphed aerial to punch you, and decide to punch you regularly, if i hit your shield with the end of the punch, guess what? its safe on block.

also, it seems kinda dumb that you're arguing ganons range advantage on game and watch, because dk has more range than ganon, so dk would have a great range advantage on gdubs.

and dtilt is punishable, it has enough active frames that dk can fsmash you if you miss, it just eats through the active dtilt. i do it a lot because, for some reason, game and watches think its perfectly safe, it isnt

also, as far as your tier argument goes. game and watch might officially be top tier, but really, metaknight and snake are top tier, thats it, game and watch is high tier, and guess what, so is dk. the fact that you keep referring to him like he's a low tier tells me even moer about how little you know about dk. give it up, we've poked thousands of holes in all your arguments both here and on allisbrawl.

if any knowledgeable game and watch mains would like to comment, it would be good to get some new voices

cutter · Sep 14, 2008

itsthebigfoot said:
also, dk's kill moves are safe on block when space properly,

Powershield + punish

itsthebigfoot said:
if i hit your shield with the end of the punch, guess what? its safe on block.

Powershield + punish

Nothing is safe in this game.

cedrick · Sep 14, 2008

i main both dk and gw and i think gw has something like 60/40 on dk

well spaced turtles make approaching very difficult. the key is really annoying because of the landing hitbox and it also punishes the downb. ftilt is good here and so is dtilt. u can bait a key and shield it then ftilt or fsmash after the landing lag (dsmash doesnt have enough range). his nair will pretty much **** you when youre above him as your options are very limited in the air. bairs below the stage when he tries to sweetspot the ledge works too. dk kills are going to come from giant punch and punishing a mistake like a shorthopped fair or bad key. other than that keep your spacing anticipate the turtle and be patient

crifer · Sep 14, 2008

please play against each other, take a record and stop this.

InsomniaK · Sep 14, 2008

50-50 imo, give or take 5%.

Turbo Ether · Sep 14, 2008

Hey, stop being idiots, just directly compare the frame data to factually determine who's safe doing what. That's what's done in traditional fighting game communities.

i1337 · Sep 14, 2008

doesnt dks down b outrange g&w dtilt?

A2ZOMG · Sep 14, 2008

itsthebigfoot said:
ok, first off, the universal truth of brawl is that if you two stock someone its cause your good, if you three stock someone its cause there bad. so you three stocking that dk means that you played a bad dk. I've three stocked a grand total of 16 game and watches, so going by your logic, the matchup must be extremely in my favor.

I'm going to point out the reason I 3stocked him was because his kill moves were extremely easy to avoid. Arguing that DK can consistently kill G&W at ridiculously low percents is nonsense. That only happens if G&W badly spaced vs a F-smash. Most G&Ws do get extremely lazy with spacing, I'll point out.

also, dk's kill moves are safe on block when space properly, so, if i hit you with dk's fingers on the fsmash, i'm not getting punished. if, for some reason, i don't decide to wait for gdubs to use a telegraphed aerial to punch you, and decide to punch you regularly, if i hit your shield with the end of the punch, guess what? its safe on block.

If you actually Punch the aerial, you get hit. If you miss the F-smash, you are likely punished. F-smash can be powershielded easily on reaction. DK punch is also powershieldable on reaction.

also, it seems kinda dumb that you're arguing ganons range advantage on game and watch, because dk has more range than ganon, so dk would have a great range advantage on gdubs.

Range isn't everything in the matchup. DK is pretty laggy on some of his attacks

and dtilt is punishable, it has enough active frames that dk can fsmash you if you miss, it just eats through the active dtilt. i do it a lot because, for some reason, game and watches think its perfectly safe, it isnt

The ONLY way that's going to happen is if you initiated the F-smash WAY before G&W started to D-tilt Like seriously. After the hitbox, there are zero frames of ending lag. The attack itself doesn't last long. Think reasonably, NOBODY can react to one D-tilt and punish it on sight unless they have a projectile. The average human reaction time is what, like 12 frames or so, and G&W's D-tilt lasts 25 frames. DK's F-smash? I think it comes out a little slower than G&W's D-smash, which comes out frame 15.

Basically, the point is it's not nearly as easy as you're implying to punish G&W's D-tilt.

also, as far as your tier argument goes. game and watch might officially be top tier, but really, metaknight and snake are top tier, thats it, game and watch is high tier, and guess what, so is dk. the fact that you keep referring to him like he's a low tier tells me even moer about how little you know about dk. give it up, we've poked thousands of holes in all your arguments both here and on allisbrawl.

DK is high tier yeah, I don't disagree with that, but yet you say he loses to Fox, who is EASILY a low tier character? COMPLETE BS. Like seriously, think that over carefully.

Eh, MK is really the only guy that's on the top tier. After MK there is an upper tier that consists of Snake, G&W, DDD, and maybe Marth, Falco...eh.

Ripple · Sep 14, 2008

I'm going to point out the reason I 3stocked him was because his kill moves were extremely easy to avoid. Arguing that DK can consistently kill G&W at ridiculously low percents is nonsense. That only happens if G&W badly spaced vs a F-smash. Most G&Ws do get extremely lazy with spacing, I'll point out.

and you arguing that DK's kill moves are easy to avoid is complete nonsense also. you are being so one sided and close minded. you absolutely can not see both sides can you?

If you actually Punch the aerial, you get hit. If you miss the F-smash, you are likely punished. F-smash can be powershielded easily on reaction. DK punch is also powershieldable on reaction.

so can every move in the game if you have knowledge as to when its going to be used. that's why people mix it up and have mind games. also, by your logic, since G&W's smashes are also somewhat slow, G&W is bad at killing.

Range isn't everything in the matchup. DK is pretty laggy on some of his attacks

yes it is, and so what if they are laggy?they are powerful and push the opponent back making them less punishable.

The ONLY way that's going to happen is if you initiated the F-smash WAY before G&W started to D-tilt Like seriously. After the hitbox, there are zero frames of ending lag. The attack itself doesn't last long. Think reasonably, NOBODY can react to one D-tilt and punish it on sight unless they have a projectile.

THEY CAN IF THEY POWERSHIELD IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

isn't that your response to every hypothetical situation? in everyone of your situations G&W is assumed to powershield the attack and punish. you can't assume that.

DK is high tier yeah, I don't disagree with that, but yet you say he loses to Fox, who is EASILY a low tier character? COMPLETE BS. Like seriously, think that over carefully.

so what if Fox is low tier. everything that fox does counters DK. Fox has a projectile and a very spammable at that. Fox is very fast at attacking and has almost no lag on all of his attacks, not DK. DK also is at a disadvantage against bowser IMO. what are you going to say to that? since bowser is mid tier its still not ok for DK to be at a disadvantage? that kind of thinking is BS!

Eh, MK is really the only guy that's on the top tier. After MK there is an upper tier that consists of Snake, G&W, DDD, and maybe Marth, Falco...eh.

Originally Posted by omegablackmage View Post
Donkey Kong: (5/5)

General Matchup:

* Donkey Kong's major strong suits are his weight, power, and range. He'll be using all of these to their maximum extent to take you down so learn how to get around them or to cope with them.
* DK's priority is pretty well matched up with his range. Most of his attacks aren't disjointed like gw's are however, which will allow you to win in most cases. If your attacks collide, either expect to win or for them to cancel out. The only time dk will hit you through your attack is if he has invincibility frames, super armor frames, or he simply went around your hitbox somehow.
* DK's power is nearly unmatched in this game. Only characters like ike and ganon can really compete in terms of strength, although not even close in speed. DK is loaded with kill moves that can strike gw down in the early 70's, even 60's depending on placement. Downsmash and neutral b are probably the most devastating ones. Downsmash is quite good because it is extremely fast out of the shield, hitting above him in what seems like just a few frames. This move kills upward in the 70's for gw, and has a surprising amount of range. The neutral b, when charged, gets SA frames, which can really throw off how you approach DK. A fair that looks like a free hit will turn into an early demise if you aren't careful. Other kill moves of note are fsmash (really incredible forward range), upsmash (good range, fairly quick), up air and bair sometimes (although usually used a lot so not often killed with).

IN YOUR FACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! straight from the official match up chart in the G&W boards

* Dk's recovery looks pretty terrible at a glance, but upon further inspection, its not half bad. Im pretty sure that the first 10 frames or so of the move grant invincibility frames, the move hits a lot for a lot of damage, covers more vertical distance than in melee, can cancel well for combos near the stage. Dair from above will def knock him out, but good spacing w/ the fair and bair will be needed.

What was that about DK's recovery being terrible???

* Dk's edgeguarding usually involves aggressive bairs, or up b's that are started off the stage and then maneuvered in. Both of these would require dk not to go too far down, which means your in the clear for most situations.
* Dk's combo game is somewhat lacking, although thats not where he specializes. It isn't too unusual to see some nifty bair combos, up air combos, although these will be harder for DK to unleash on gw because he is so small.
* Dk has a large frame, is fairly heavy, fun combos : )

General Strategies:

* Your biggest problem in this matchup will be competing for the range. Ftilt, fsmash, bair, dtilt, and down b all have enormous ranges that match yours.

what was that you said about G&W having terrible range and that it wasn't everything???

You'll find yourself keeping your spacing tight if you want to land hits to start combo's up. If the dk plays right they'll be able to punish you for messing any of your spacing up w/ down b's and the works.

but you said spacing isn't everything...

* The second biggest problem? winning the percent game. In order to beat dk's you need to minimize the amount of damage you take, and maximize theirs. This seems obvious to beat any character, but because the weight gap between the two characters is much larger than most matchups, this because quite the issue. He'll be killing you in the 70's, you'll be killing him in the 110's most likely. Theres a good 40% you need to make up on every stock, putting you at a disadvantage, keep that in mind.
* If your opponent is very precise with the neutral b's SA frames, then you could be in a lot of trouble. When he has his punch charged up, you need to avoid approaching mindlessly, no matter how good your spacing is.

but what about powershielding???? it doesn't matter if you can't space yourself as long as you can react to every move that the opponent does, right? Wrong, you fail again

Learn to empty your shuffles into grabs, or learn to air dodge through him into grabs to keep them on their feet. If they think theres a good chance that you'll drop in for a grab, then they won't be so eager to throw the donkey punch around.
* Whenever possible, learn to keep the match controlled in the air. GW's aerials will blow dk's out of the water in almost every situtation. Bair is the only real pain, only because its so fast and has so much range. Fair, nair, dair, and up air either don't have enough range, have no priority, or are too slow to compete with gw's aerials.
* Although i've been raving about Dk's speed, don't compare the two. GW is miles ahead of dk's speed, i just don't want you to underestimate how fast dk can be. Learn to use your superior aerial mobility to weave in and out of dk's range to score hits and combos.
* Make good use of the chef in this matchup, especially when dealing with a fully charged donkey punch. Chef will cancel out his approaches, he's huge, so he can't just avoid them.
* Best thing to do against a recovering dk is to try and get as much damage in as possible. He's pretty difficult to gimp, so settle for racking up that extra damage you'll need to kill him. Fair/bair/dair should all knock him out with proper spacing.

if you still don't believe us why don't you complain to the G&W boards for just proving you, a G&W user, wrong?

A2ZOMG · Sep 15, 2008

Ripple said:
and you arguing that DK's kill moves are easy to avoid is complete nonsense also. you are being so one sided and close minded. you absolutely can not see both sides can you?

Lol, maybe. Make a convincing enough argument, I do change my mind. That did happen before for example when Xiivi made a hax post explaining in detail why Fox isn't good like most people, including me, thought he was.

so can every move in the game if you have knowledge as to when its going to be used. that's why people mix it up and have mind games. also, by your logic, since G&W's smashes are also somewhat slow, G&W is bad at killing.

G&W has no trouble keeping his F-air undiminished since he has better aerials for dealing damage. DK is so tall that G&W can even hit DK with a fullhopped F-air. Assuming you even powershielded that, you would probably only be able to punish that with something like a running grab or Dash attack.

Also, G&W's Smashes, while slow, CANNOT be powershielded on reaction due to instant charge release. Each of his Smashes has only ten frames of ending lag after the hitbox, making them all fairly hard to punish. F-smash is probably the most punishable of the three.

so what if they are laggy, they are powerful and push the opponent back making them less punishable.

Most of the kill moves DK has minus D-smash and the occasional undiminished aerial can be powershieled on reaction. Powershielding keep in mind is generally not hard in this game.

THEY CAN IF THEY POWERSHIELD IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

isn't that your response to every hypothetical situation? in everyone of your situations G&W is assumed to powershield the attack and punish. you can't assume that.

Even if you powershielded the D-tilt, the F-smash comes out pretty slowly. D-smash would likely work better if you're actually powershielding the D-tilt as opposed to noticing it when he misses with it from a distance, in which case you're not going to punish it with a F-smash.

so what if Fox is low tier. everything that fox does counters DK. Fox has a projectile and a very spammable at that. Fox is very fast at attacking and has almost no lag on all of his attacks, not DK. DK also is at a disadvantage against bowser IMO. what are you going to say to that? since bowser is mid tier its ok for DK to be at a disadvantage? that kind of thinking is BS!

Fox's projectile is bad. It isn't spammable, because it has no stun, and the lowest laser when SHing does not go very low (although this might be less an issue vs DK). He might be fairly low lag, but his aerial mobility is lousy, making him easily shieldgrabbed or punished for most of his aerial attacks (and lol, DK has like....really good grab range in Brawl). Plus, he's extremely lightweight. And his recovery is bad. =/

Sure if you like fail to bother shieldgrabing his D-air, you might get comboed by his U-tilt...but that's it. His only other advantage is high KO power.

And Bowser clearly has more potential than Fox, so who knows about his matchups right now. I don't think the Bowser boards agree with your statement, but I dunno otherwise.

cutter · Sep 15, 2008

Technically, everything can be powershielded and punished. That's Brawl for ya. :-/

Ripple · Sep 15, 2008

Originally Posted by omegablackmage View Post
Donkey Kong: (5/5)

General Matchup:

* Donkey Kong's major strong suits are his weight, power, and range. He'll be using all of these to their maximum extent to take you down so learn how to get around them or to cope with them.
* DK's priority is pretty well matched up with his range. Most of his attacks aren't disjointed like gw's are however, which will allow you to win in most cases. If your attacks collide, either expect to win or for them to cancel out. The only time dk will hit you through your attack is if he has invincibility frames, super armor frames, or he simply went around your hitbox somehow.
* DK's power is nearly unmatched in this game. Only characters like ike and ganon can really compete in terms of strength, although not even close in speed. DK is loaded with kill moves that can strike gw down in the early 70's, even 60's depending on placement. Downsmash and neutral b are probably the most devastating ones. Downsmash is quite good because it is extremely fast out of the shield, hitting above him in what seems like just a few frames. This move kills upward in the 70's for gw, and has a surprising amount of range. The neutral b, when charged, gets SA frames, which can really throw off how you approach DK. A fair that looks like a free hit will turn into an early demise if you aren't careful. Other kill moves of note are fsmash (really incredible forward range), upsmash (good range, fairly quick), up air and bair sometimes (although usually used a lot so not often killed with).

IN YOUR FACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! straight from the official match up chart in the G&W boards

* Dk's recovery looks pretty terrible at a glance, but upon further inspection, its not half bad. Im pretty sure that the first 10 frames or so of the move grant invincibility frames, the move hits a lot for a lot of damage, covers more vertical distance than in melee, can cancel well for combos near the stage. Dair from above will def knock him out, but good spacing w/ the fair and bair will be needed.

What was that about DK's recovery being terrible???

* Dk's edgeguarding usually involves aggressive bairs, or up b's that are started off the stage and then maneuvered in. Both of these would require dk not to go too far down, which means your in the clear for most situations.
* Dk's combo game is somewhat lacking, although thats not where he specializes. It isn't too unusual to see some nifty bair combos, up air combos, although these will be harder for DK to unleash on gw because he is so small.
* Dk has a large frame, is fairly heavy, fun combos : )

General Strategies:

* Your biggest problem in this matchup will be competing for the range. Ftilt, fsmash, bair, dtilt, and down b all have enormous ranges that match yours.

what was that you said about G&W having terrible range and that it wasn't everything???

You'll find yourself keeping your spacing tight if you want to land hits to start combo's up. If the dk plays right they'll be able to punish you for messing any of your spacing up w/ down b's and the works.

but you said spacing isn't everything...

* The second biggest problem? winning the percent game. In order to beat dk's you need to minimize the amount of damage you take, and maximize theirs. This seems obvious to beat any character, but because the weight gap between the two characters is much larger than most matchups, this because quite the issue. He'll be killing you in the 70's, you'll be killing him in the 110's most likely. Theres a good 40% you need to make up on every stock, putting you at a disadvantage, keep that in mind.
* If your opponent is very precise with the neutral b's SA frames, then you could be in a lot of trouble. When he has his punch charged up, you need to avoid approaching mindlessly, no matter how good your spacing is.

but what about powershielding???? it doesn't matter if you can't space yourself as long as you can react to every move that the opponent does,(it doesn't have to be a f-smash) right? Wrong, you fail again

Learn to empty your shuffles into grabs, or learn to air dodge through him into grabs to keep them on their feet. If they think theres a good chance that you'll drop in for a grab, then they won't be so eager to throw the donkey punch around.
* Whenever possible, learn to keep the match controlled in the air. GW's aerials will blow dk's out of the water in almost every situtation. Bair is the only real pain, only because its so fast and has so much range. Fair, nair, dair, and up air either don't have enough range, have no priority, or are too slow to compete with gw's aerials.
* Although i've been raving about Dk's speed, don't compare the two. GW is miles ahead of dk's speed, i just don't want you to underestimate how fast dk can be. Learn to use your superior aerial mobility to weave in and out of dk's range to score hits and combos.
* Make good use of the chef in this matchup, especially when dealing with a fully charged donkey punch. Chef will cancel out his approaches, he's huge, so he can't just avoid them.
* Best thing to do against a recovering dk is to try and get as much damage in as possible. He's pretty difficult to gimp, so settle for racking up that extra damage you'll need to kill him. Fair/bair/dair should all knock him out with proper spacing.

if you still don't believe us why don't you complain to the G&W boards for just proving you, a G&W user, wrong?

A2ZOMG · Sep 15, 2008

Well, there's a key point I'm trying to make here though. There are some attacks where it's very easy to react to them and powershield, which includes a number of slower Smashes, although there are some Smashes where it's very difficult to powershield them due to a wacky charge release.

And we don't all agree on this particular matchup. OBM also sadly doesn't always know what he's talking about. He thinks G&W goes even with Snake.

And really, DK's recovery is worse than he's giving it credit for. I can immediately answer that one. Slowfalled D-air >>> Up-B. G&W's Up-B is also extremely useful for keeping DK off stage.

Ripple · Sep 15, 2008

A2ZOMG said:
Well, there's a key point I'm trying to make here though. There are some attacks where it's very easy to react to them and powershield, which includes a number of slower Smashes, although there are some Smashes where it's very difficult to powershield them due to a wacky charge release.

on average a person with good reactions can react to something in about 20 frames with 15 being the absolute best without prediction or future sight. that's about 1/3 of a second. any attacks longer are easily to react to.(snake,ike,bowser) but DK is boarderline f-smash comes out either 18 or 22 I don't remember

And we don't all agree that the matchup is in DK's favor. OBM also sadly doesn't always know what he's talking about. He thinks G&W goes even with Snake.

I never said it was if that is what you were saying, if not just ignore me. I think its even, its just there is so muck more evidence to show that DK is advantageous

itsthebigfoot · Sep 15, 2008

slowfall dair might win if the dk's dumb and runs right into the hitbox. really, if your upbing, you should be either punishing their gimp attempt, in which case game and watch would be hit out of range, or right near the ledge, in which case the dair would miss,

A2ZOMG · Sep 15, 2008

itsthebigfoot said:
slowfall dair might win if the dk's dumb and runs right into the hitbox. really, if your upbing, you should be either punishing their gimp attempt, in which case game and watch would be hit out of range, or right near the ledge, in which case the dair would miss,

But...now the argument is who is going to make the move first though.

And chances are DK or pretty much any character (minus the ones with extra extra insane recovery) is going to do that if he's the one off stage. ^^

BBQ° · Sep 15, 2008

I think A2ZOMG should fight bigfoot in 10 matches and let's say bigfoot wins 6 matches and A2zomg wins 4 matches then the match-up would be 60:40 in DK's favor

You guys both live in CA so meet up with each other and record the matches lol.

blakinola · Sep 15, 2008

I like this matchup discussion guys, very heated.

I move that for subsequent matchups, we make a new thread, that way I can link them in my character guide--and people would have to search through pages and pages of discussion.

G and W has two moves that really own dk--the turtle and the fishbowl. A good GW will keep DK in the air with uair and make him work for his KO even though GW dies pretty early vertically. Horizontally though, GW can come back just as easily as DK. The match can be won by either, but DK, having such a huge character frame has to work harder and take more damage.

Jmex · Sep 15, 2008

Although both parties have strong arguments, i feel as though this match up is 50-50.

Big O · Sep 16, 2008

It looks like there a lot of misunderstandings in this discussion. Here are some of the things i found work and do not work.

A fully charged giant punch has got to be the SAFEST move on block DK has. Shield stun, pushback, and recoil from the punch means by the time G&W is even gets close DK can do anything even if G&W was in DK's face when the punch starts. Fsmash when spaced is also safe on block. Dsmash however is not completely safe on block even when at max range because G&W's full hop fair barely makes it in time. GW's dtilt is a good move but just because it has "zero ending lag" does not mean it is unpunishable. If G&W whiffs DK can fsmash and more imprtantly dsmash through the dtilt. If blocked the active hitbox disappears and DK can follow up with an ftilt or dtilt before G&W can block it.

It was brought up that you can attack DK's arms if DK misses an fsmash and during other moves since DK extends his hurtbox with his moves. This is somewhat true because for attacks that do not clank (aerials and some specials) DK would get hit. For the most part however it is not true. DK's ftilt clanks with all of G&W's ground attacks and smashes. In DK's fsmash he pulls his arms as soon as the active frames are over so attacking his hands successfully with a ground move takes serious luck (maybe a 2 frame opportunity). In fact most of DK's attacks he pulls the limb he attacks with back to where it was as soon as the hitbox disappears. The only attacks that extend DK's hurtbox that are exploitable are dsmash and giant punch. Dsmash is more exploitable because he leaves his arms on the ground for a while but they are very low to the ground so not any move can take advantage of this. The giant punch extends his arm very far out and pretty much any attack can hit it easily but the window for attacking it after the hitbox goes away is pretty small.

The thing about not being able to powershield G&W's smashes because of instant charge release is funny because DK's charge release for all of his smashes are quicker than G&W's fsmash release (lol) and as fast as G&W's dsmash release (all DK's smashes charge release at the same time) so powershielding DK's fsmash on reaction is not reliable at all.

The Unlawful Salmon · Sep 16, 2008

I've played a lot of G&Ws, and I also feel a top G&W vs a top DK is 5/5. This match-up will not be even most of the time however. The stage picked will either favor G&W or DK, and can add about a 5% to 10% advantage.

Some things to do/remember vs any G&W:

1.) Avoid his Fsmash like the plague. This is the one thing you need to do 100% of the time.
2.) Try to avoid his Dsmash.
3.) Don't chase G&W out too far down off the stage, his upB can stage spike DK.
4.) Be prepared to predict incoming Nairs(The turlte is a bit more obvious, so you should know when it's coming.)
5.) 9 Whirl only on a 0%-55% G&W. Try to mind game something like camping Bairs, then suddenly land and turn around a 9-whirl. Never just throw this move out, almost every G&W move can disrupt it. If it lands, G&W will die almost every time. Use a fully charged DK punch at all other percents. Those SA frames are golden! Using your DK punch correctly in this match-up is HUGE. DK could land up having a 5% advantage in this match-up due just to this, but good G&Ws will be making it their top priority to avoid this move(usually bait it out then punish.) It's also a lot harder to pull off a 9-whirl on some stages where there's lots of small platforms.
6.) Stay away from stages that are just a bunch of small platforms that are close together.
7.) Try to stay on the ground when attacking, and approaching G&W. You can't combo G&W with your Bair as much, so don't try. You will only get punished for trying to do so. You don't want to whiff your 2nd Bair only to eat an Fsmash. Remember G&W has lots of high priority moves in the air, but his ground game isn't as good. Forcing G&Ws short hop a lot to approach you means that they can make spacing mistakes you can punish with a plethora of beefy DK moves. For approaching you'll need to use your Ftilt a lot, and will have to aim it upwards a lot.
8.) Utilt can beat out the key, but so can Usmash. Utilt it a bit easier to time than Usmash though, and G&W can manuever his key around your Usmash last minute, so generally only Usmash if your 100% sure it's going to land. Utilt has a bit more range around your body too(mostly your back), just make sure your facing the right way when you use your Utilt(Not too big of a deal though.)
9.) G&W likes to sneak in Usmashes when your not prepared, so be careful not to get baited into landing into a position where he can get one off(Usually when you roll into him, or too close to him. Sometimes they just Dsmash instead though.)
10.) Remember this match-up will favor whoever picks the stage. Know your G&W stage counterpicks! Be prepared for him to pick a stage with lots of little platforms, and that's close quarters.

itsthebigfoot · Sep 17, 2008

well that died down quick.

to all the dk mains, try this, charge a punch, when they shorthop to attack you (and they will 95% of the time) punch them and charge another one, then just wait for them to approach and punch again, it works very well, and its the reason i think dk has the advantage

Ripple · Sep 17, 2008

DK probably has the advantage over every lightweight excluding meta knight

The Unlawful Salmon · Sep 17, 2008

itsthebigfoot said:
well that died down quick.

to all the dk mains, try this, charge a punch, when they shorthop to attack you (and they will 95% of the time) punch them and charge another one, then just wait for them to approach and punch again, it works very well, and its the reason i think dk has the advantage

It's just too good.

Ripple said:
DK probably has the advantage over every lightweight excluding meta knight

Being heavy in this game means a lot. If snake wasn't so heavy, and he still had his broken moves he wouldn't be nearly as good.

cutter · Sep 17, 2008

Bigfoot, the reason why DK does not have an advantage over G&W is the exact same reason why he doesn't have an advantage over Marth or MK. Almost all of DK's moves are not disjointed hitboxes (down B being the exception). Whenever he uses an attack, he extends out his hurtbox and he'll be on the receiving end of getting nailed by a sword or a turtle while MK/Marth/GW remained unharmed should attacks be traded.

You also make it sound like DK's giant punch has super armor for the entire duration of the attack, which is obviously false. The SA frames are active during the quick punching animation only. The startup time before unleashing the punch as ZERO super armor frames.

50/50 matchup IMO; maybe 55/45 in G&W's favor like with Marth and MK.

Big O · Sep 18, 2008

cutter said:
Bigfoot, the reason why DK does not have an advantage over G&W is the exact same reason why he doesn't have an advantage over Marth or MK. Almost all of DK's moves are not disjointed hitboxes (down B being the exception). Whenever he uses an attack, he extends out his hurtbox and he'll be on the receiving end of getting nailed by a sword or a turtle while MK/Marth/GW remained unharmed should attacks be traded.

You also make it sound like DK's giant punch has super armor for the entire duration of the attack, which is obviously false. The SA frames are active during the quick punching animation only. The startup time before unleashing the punch as ZERO super armor frames.

50/50 matchup IMO; maybe 55/45 in G&W's favor like with Marth and MK.

Like I said in my earlier post DK's attacks extending his hurtbox is overblown. Only his dsmash and giant punch can be taken advantage of if they whiff and the super armor on the giant punch while its active makes DK win in trades. The lack of disjointed hitboxes only really matter against the turtle and fishbowl. Punching through the turtle is not too hard if you see it coming. The speed and range of the ftilt, bair, occasionally utilt, and a fully charged giant punch make abusing disjointed aerials a lot harder at most angles.

itsthebigfoot · Sep 19, 2008

let me explain something about the game mechanics. on the ground, priority is determined by damage, if two attacks do within somewhere between 4-6% (around that) they clank, otherwise the stronger attack wins. so, since dk's attacks all do around 10% or more, the disjoints do not matter, since as long as it's active it will clank or hit, and once it's no longer active it retracks the hurtbox.

as for the air, all aerial attacks are disjoint, high priority aerials are really just very disjointed aerials, since priority is determined by which hitbox overlaps a hurtbox first, so dk's "high priority" bair is really just disjointed and fast. this function is why aerials never clank with aerials or ground attacks.

specials work exactly the same as ground attacks, except they overrule aerial priority, so a high powered special (dk's neutral b) will beat out pretty much every attack.

so, for a hard hitting character like dk, disjoints do not matter much, since you usually just overpower the attack

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 19, 2008

The GaW boards have it as a 50:50 match-up iirc, although I'd say 45:55 for GaW is a tad more accurate

cutter · Sep 19, 2008

itsthebigfoot said:
let me explain something about the game mechanics. on the ground, priority is determined by damage, if two attacks do within somewhere between 4-6% (around that) they clank, otherwise the stronger attack wins. so, since dk's attacks all do around 10% or more, the disjoints do not matter, since as long as it's active it will clank or hit, and once it's no longer active it retracks the hurtbox.

This is correct.

as for the air, all aerial attacks are disjoint, high priority aerials are really just very disjointed aerials, since priority is determined by which hitbox overlaps a hurtbox first, so dk's "high priority" bair is really just disjointed and fast. this function is why aerials never clank with aerials or ground attacks.

But this isn't. Where the hell do you get the "all aerial attacks are disjointed" from?. DK's Bair is non-disjointed hitbox because his foot is also a hurtbox. Conversely when Marth, MK, or G&W use an aerial it's a disjointed hitbox because the said hitbox is NOT a hurtbox as well. If DK Bairs into a sword, turtle, hammer, or aura he'll be the one getting hit while the disjoint remains intact.

specials work exactly the same as ground attacks, except they overrule aerial priority, so a high powered special (dk's neutral b) will beat out pretty much every attack.

DK's neutral B is not a disjointed hitbox.

so, for a hard hitting character like dk, disjoints do not matter much, since you usually just overpower the attack

With that logic, DK would have advantages over everyone with disjointed hitboxes. :-/

Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Legend

Life is just a party

Smash Champion

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Smash Legend

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Legend

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····

Smash Legend

Smash Champion

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····

Smash Legend

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····

Smash Lord

Smash Legend

Smash Champion

Constantly Delicious

Smash Lord

Moderator

Smash Cadet

Smash Lord

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····

Smash Cadet

Smash Champion

Moderator

Smash Lord

Life is just a party

Smash Champion

Information

Network