The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

Stealth Raptor · Nov 20, 2008

he outranges and prioritizes you everywhere, but if you get him off the edge you should be able to gimp him hard. bair is good for this matchuo for you guys. i dont think you can go far with your gonzo combos with lucario, he is so floaty.

CaliburChamp · Nov 20, 2008

Lucario is good where he is on this match up chart. And shouldn't we be working on the "questionable matchups" listed on the first post? Like Luigi, his f-smash is ridiculous, and Kirby can't combo him too well, Luigi's n-air is a combo breaker. I'd say it's 60-40 in Luigi's favor.

Retroend · Nov 20, 2008

Stealth Raptor said:
he outranges and prioritizes you everywhere, but if you get him off the edge you should be able to gimp him hard. bair is good for this matchuo for you guys. i dont think you can go far with your gonzo combos with lucario, he is so floaty.

true, lucario is floaty, but you can do the 1st half of the gonzo combo and then u-tilt. then you can nair or uair him. yea lucario can be a challenge if you don't know what you're doing and if you don't know what he's capable of.

jiovanni007 · Nov 20, 2008

retro gamer said:
true, lucario is floaty, but you can do the 1st half of the gonzo combo and then u-tilt. then you can nair or uair him. yea lucario can be a challenge if you don't know what you're doing and if you don't know what he's capable of.

No you actually can't utilt if they DI properly. Lucario's Fsmash is crazy and is even crazier when he has a ton of damage on him. The toughest part of this match is landing the killing blow. His Fsmash outranges and outprioritizes yours and is extremely safe in most cases. It has IASA frames that pretty much prevent you from doing anything outside of dair to him. He outcamps you with aura sphere and if you actually manage to inhale him, he can hit you immediately with a dair and shift the momentum back in his favor. A friend of mine who happens to be very, very good at smash said "Lucario in this match is like a better version of Marth, he shuts you down in the air and on the ground and can kill you very easily." Lucario's fair has crazy priority and beats out bair. Not only that, but he doesn't even need to approach, he just spams aura spheres and wait for you. A defensive Lucario is very tough to beat. As far as gimping goes, our only feasible option is dair during his ^b. The only problem with this is that Lucario is very floaty and can sometimes just drift back to the stage without even using his second jump. If you connect with a bair and it doesn't kill, you just saved his life since he can DI up and float back easier.

About Weegee, his fsmash isn't that ridiculous. When angles it loses range, when not angled it loses speed and can be easily countered. I may actually be biased when I talk about him since he is my secondary, but its about 50-50. For the most part, all Weegees play alike (when they're good) so I sorta know what they'll do since I play him as well. For someone not used to playing Weegee I guess he could be a bit of a problem since his aerials are very quick and he can even toss Kirby around the air. I still say its 50-50

Asdioh · Nov 20, 2008

CaliburChamp said:
Lucario is good where he is on this match up chart. And shouldn't we be working on the "questionable matchups" listed on the first post? Like Luigi, his f-smash is ridiculous, and Kirby can't combo him too well, Luigi's n-air is a combo breaker. I'd say it's 60-40 in Luigi's favor.

Luigi's favor? First time I've heard that...

Luigi's fsmash IS ridiculous, but does he have anything that can beat Kirby's fsmash?

He is hard to combo, but not hard to kill.

And yeah, Luigi's nair is AMAZING O_O

I'd put it somewhere around 50-50...

fromundaman · Nov 20, 2008

retro gamer said:
true, lucario is floaty, but you can do the 1st half of the gonzo combo and then u-tilt. then you can nair or uair him. yea lucario can be a challenge if you don't know what you're doing and if you don't know what he's capable of.

Dair says hello.

Lucario's Fair beats Bair?

As for Luigi, he has fast aerials, but none that outprioritize Bair. Don't try the Gonzo combo: It won't work. I think Dthrow>Utilts still work though.

Luigi has a good Fsmash, and his tornado has good ground priority, but we can absolutely destroy his recovery and outprioritize his aerials (except probably his Dair). On top of that, we have better kill options, and he won't be able to gimp Kirby.
I would keep inhale as an option in this match (despite having written the opposite less than a month ago in another thread) to counter his side B recovery. If you inhale him during it then just spit him back out a few feet lower, odds are he won't recover. Inhale under the stage screws him too.

On the other hand: Luigi has faster aerials than us I believe and can be difficult to combo. His fireballs can be disruptive, and while very linear and predictable for the most part, if left alone he can recover from pretty far. His Fsmash is also very strong, outprioritizes most of our moves I think, and sodomizes us. Considering how light we are, it will hurt.

However, our light weight is also what makes us harder to juggle.

Also, stone could be a very bad move. Luigi players, correct me if I'm wrong, but can you sweetspot upB to knock us out of stone? If you hit us as we transform out of it, does it sweetspot?

Anyway, I'd say slight advantage to Kirby, though it still doesn't seem all that uneven.

Asdioh · Nov 20, 2008

fromundaman said:
Also, stone could be a very bad move. Luigi players, correct me if I'm wrong, but can you sweetspot upB to knock us out of stone? If you hit us as we transform out of it, does it sweetspot?

Anyway, I'd say slight advantage to Kirby, though it still doesn't seem all that uneven.

I don't think Dragon Punch does 30+ damage, but yeah it can screw you big time if you miss a Stone.

So don't land on the ground with Stone unless you feel like it's almost guaranteed to hit, or a Dragon Punch won't kill you.

~Gonzo~ · Nov 21, 2008

all i have to say is F lucario with a baseball bat up the a55, i hate him and his broken range

fsdfsdgsgdf · Nov 22, 2008

~Gonzo~ said:
all i have to say is F lucario with a baseball bat up the a55, i hate him and his broken range

Give this man cookie, he just won the internetz

MK26 · Nov 22, 2008

=) it got stickied!

With input from both teh Falco board and here, the matchup seems to be swaying closer to 60-40, and that's where I'm going to put it. Theoretically,p the matchup is closer, but a single mistake by Falco will always have disastrous consequences...so in practice, it's around 60-40.

Regarding Falco's CG, if you DI up and jump asap, he can't get anything more than 2 grabs to a DACUS at 0.

I can't be on often for the next little while, so I dont have time to do any of the writeups. I'll get them done as soon as i can.

And sice you've already started on him...

Character: Lucario

The force is strong with th- *slap upside the head*

Difficulty rating: 45-55

TechnoMonster · Nov 22, 2008

Are you serious about Lucario being slightly disadvantaged for Kirby? Almost everything he has can be punished, baited, or flat out destroyed by Kirby. If you shield his F-smash, you fail, you can either dodge it to D-tilt or jump over it for a free D-air. D-air combos also seem to be especially delicious on Lucario.

Kirby also has no trouble avoiding projectiles or even just B-airing through a weak aura sphere, and is difficult for Lucario to sideB chain grab or use his air "combos" on a Kirby with OK DI at best. You can counter an autocancelled D-air with a shieldgrab or upsmash out of shield, depending on where they're at, and all of his other aerials are weak to upsmash out of shield's 10-frame startup as well, or lose to good spacing with B-airs and can set up free F-smashes if you mindgame a whiff.

Edgeguarding is pie, just grab the freaking edge and Lucario either has to go over you or wall cling. If he goes over, just grab and B-throw, or if you can time it, hop up and B-air him out of his extremespeed, and repeat for massive percent. Sometimes you'll even get a free hammer out of it!

For the wall cling, just drop down and use your up-B to stagespike him on most stages.

I'm confused as to why you guys are getting hit by Lucario at all, I find him to be a super-easy matchup.

~Gonzo~ · Nov 22, 2008

Suspect said:
Give this man cookie, he just won the internetz

Lolz good ****

~Gonzo~ · Nov 22, 2008

TechnoMonster said:
Are you serious about Lucario being slightly disadvantaged for Kirby? Almost everything he has can be punished, baited, or flat out destroyed by Kirby. If you shield his F-smash, you fail, you can either dodge it to D-tilt or jump over it for a free D-air. D-air combos also seem to be especially delicious on Lucario.

Kirby also has no trouble avoiding projectiles or even just B-airing through a weak aura sphere, and is difficult for Lucario to sideB chain grab or use his air "combos" on a Kirby with OK DI at best. You can counter an autocancelled D-air with a shieldgrab or upsmash out of shield, depending on where they're at, and all of his other aerials are weak to upsmash out of shield's 10-frame startup as well, or lose to good spacing with B-airs and can set up free F-smashes if you mindgame a whiff.

Edgeguarding is pie, just grab the freaking edge and Lucario either has to go over you or wall cling. If he goes over, just grab and B-throw, or if you can time it, hop up and B-air him out of his extremespeed, and repeat for massive percent. Sometimes you'll even get a free hammer out of it!

For the wall cling, just drop down and use your up-B to stagespike him on most stages.

I'm confused as to why you guys are getting hit by Lucario at all, I find him to be a super-easy matchup.

Play Azen's Lucario then u'll c y Kirby gets ***** by Lucario.

Lucario outranges Kirby with every attack with the exception of Fsmash.
Thats all lucario needs, if u cant be hit then in all seriousness u win.

SheerMadness · Nov 22, 2008

You get ***** by Azen. Kirby doesn't get ***** by Lucario.

I'd go with 50-50.

sMexy-Blu · Nov 22, 2008

SheerMadness said:
You get ***** by Azen. Kirby doesn't get ***** by Lucario.

I'd go with 50-50.

Um... Were does Kirby gets *****? he has no holes

Only his mouth...

fsdfsdgsgdf · Nov 22, 2008

SheerMadness said:
You get ***** by Azen. Kirby doesn't get ***** by Lucario.

I'd go with 50-50.

wtf? no one has played a good lucario then, Kirby doesn't get ***** but it's still in lucarios favor hands down.

Retroend · Nov 23, 2008

Suspect said:
wtf? no one has played a good lucario then, Kirby doesn't get ***** but it's still in lucarios favor hands down.

you obviously don't know sheermadness then.

King of Hoboz · Nov 23, 2008

Suspect said:
wtf? no one has played a good lucario then, Kirby doesn't get ***** but it's still in lucarios favor hands down.

Agreed, when I face this one Lucario, I have lot of trouble getting an attack, especially on those last percentages when he no long needs to Fsmash to kill, just tilting and you still need smash and big more laggy moves. I would say a 40-60(May be little harsh) for Kirby

Browny · Nov 23, 2008

^^ ..... what?

any australian kirby mains here by any chance i might be able to have a few games with... i got 0/64 kirbys on my FC list at the moment so dont really have too much kirby experience but would like to know what he can do

fsdfsdgsgdf · Nov 23, 2008

retro gamer said:
you obviously don't know sheermadness then.

wat?

10chars

Lord Viper · Nov 23, 2008

Theres a diffrence between a Lucario online and offline vs Kirby, lol. But I don't think it's 45-55 though, I belive it's just about even, 50-50. But Lucario can be a ***** when you try to use your Smash attacks after he does his though, IMO.

Asdioh · Nov 24, 2008

~Gonzo~ said:
all i have to say is F lucario with a baseball bat up the a55, i hate him and his broken range

heh

TechnoMonster said:
If you shield his F-smash, you fail, you can either dodge it to D-tilt or jump over it for a free D-air.

Spotdodging Lucario's Fsmash

is EXTREMELY difficult

because the hitbox seems to last around the same amount of time as your spotdodge, so you need PERFECT timing. Then there's the fact that he can just charge it for a split second and you'll get hit by it.

Jumping over it is the best option.

Viper JLT4GOV said:
Theres a diffrence between a Lucario online and offline vs Kirby, lol. But I don't think it's 45-55 though, I belive it's just about even, 50-50. But Lucario can be a ***** when you try to use your Smash attacks after he does his though, IMO.

Viper and I both just played Blood_hawk a bit, the best Lucario in the midwest.

I only got to play him in like 2 friendlies (even though I drove him 3 hours to the tourney) but I managed to learn a bit. First off, I suck at playing offline, having not done it for over two months. That said, he's just a better player than me at the moment. BUT I did get him to a high percentage on his last stock.

This matchup is around 50-50 of 55-45 Lucario's favor. Yes, his fsmash is really good. It's also generally predictable, but so is Kirby's Fsmash. And I'm assuming that Lucario's outranges Kirby's.

Comboing Lucario is a very tricky business. His DAir comes out incredibly fast, and hits hard. Attacking him from below is folly. Being above him in the air for a DAir is preferable. You can upair from slightly below and to the side, but Bair is easier to land. He seems fairly weak from above, too, so like Techno said, bait him, and DAir. Follow that up with a forward tilt, or something.

You need to keep in mind that even if you combo the crap out of him, which is hard to do because of his COMBO BREAKERS, you're not really ahead, even if you're beating him by %. When his damage is high, he racks up damage very fast, and kills very fast.

I learned that Final Cutter is horrible. The way I use it works fairly well on wifi, but offline, he can trade hits with Aura Sphere, edgehog you if you're going for the ledge, or DAir you (or some other move) if his position is right.

I wish Kirby's Copy wasn't ********, and certain characters couldn't punish you for successfully using a move -_-

oh yeah, never ever rolldodge into Lucario. It's bad to do against most characters, but rolldodging into Lucario seems to result in getting fsmashed every time.

~Shao~ · Nov 24, 2008

I'm traumatized because of Lucario's f-smash, I swear that **** is broken =x I'll write something in-depth later. But Lucario probably has a tiny advantage.

Gnes · Nov 24, 2008

TechnoMonster said:
Are you serious about Lucario being slightly disadvantaged for Kirby? Almost everything he has can be punished, baited, or flat out destroyed by Kirby. If you shield his F-smash, you fail, you can either dodge it to D-tilt or jump over it for a free D-air. D-air combos also seem to be especially delicious on Lucario.

Kirby also has no trouble avoiding projectiles or even just B-airing through a weak aura sphere, and is difficult for Lucario to sideB chain grab or use his air "combos" on a Kirby with OK DI at best. You can counter an autocancelled D-air with a shieldgrab or upsmash out of shield, depending on where they're at, and all of his other aerials are weak to upsmash out of shield's 10-frame startup as well, or lose to good spacing with B-airs and can set up free F-smashes if you mindgame a whiff.

Edgeguarding is pie, just grab the freaking edge and Lucario either has to go over you or wall cling. If he goes over, just grab and B-throw, or if you can time it, hop up and B-air him out of his extremespeed, and repeat for massive percent. Sometimes you'll even get a free hammer out of it!

For the wall cling, just drop down and use your up-B to stagespike him on most stages.

I'm confused as to why you guys are getting hit by Lucario at all, I find him to be a super-easy matchup.

Most Lucarios can space a nair after the dair to stop shieldgrabbing...its amazingly easy to do so...What lucarios do u play???? Also most lucarios know to DI up when he's off stage thanks to lucarios AMAZING horizontal resistance so if there good they most likely not recovering in a silly way like ur talking :laugh:

If u perfectly space and time a kirby f-smash after a lucario F-smash the lucario can perfect-shield it and punish u(kirby powershields first of course)

Why would lucario be baited by kirby....not only will he live longer he has range and more disjointed hitboxes to take advantage...This is another matchup which makes kirby have to go aggressor...which is why this matchup is so hard..The two best approach options of fair/bair can be countered are plain overpowered by lucarios fair are bair depending on the percent...

Lucarios aura spheres arent too much of a problem but most lucarios will use fully charged one to keep u at a distance...ugh...the more i think of this stupid matchup it makes me sad

60-40 Lucario's favor i dont think its **** like Gonzo(come on man its Azen...with Azen spacing and DI) but its pretty bad

~Gonzo~ · Nov 24, 2008

greatness_007 said:
60-40 Lucario i dont think its **** like Gonzo(come on man its Azen...with Azen spacing and DI) but its pretty bad

i'll give u the fact that it is Azen, but i still give the matchup 50 - 50 cuz Lucario has range far beyond that of Kirby's plus once Lucario has got u spaced its hard to break his rhythm kinda like marth

Tomato Kirby · Nov 25, 2008

~Gonzo~ said:
i'll give u the fact that it is Azen, but i still give the matchup 50 - 50 cuz Lucario has range far beyond that of Kirby's plus once Lucario has got u spaced its hard to break his rhythm kinda like marth

It sounds like you meant 70-30.

greatness_007 said:
....not only will he live longer he has range and more disjointed hitboxes to take advantage...This is another matchup which makes kirby have to go aggressor...which is why this matchup is so hard..The two best approach options of fair/bair can be countered are plain overpowered by lucarios fair are bair depending on the percent...

That and the Lucario building strength makes me consider the fight 35:65. It is rather obnoxious to be winning by about 100% and then have 100% yourself in about twenty seconds for a single mistake.

His punishment is probably all-around more effective than other characters and it is easier for a Lucario to catch up to a winning Kirby (e.g., Lucario is allowed to make a few more mistakes than Kirby).

Asdioh · Nov 25, 2008

InfernoOmni said:
Asdioh, assuming you main Kirby:

You have a good match-up against MK. It's funny because Kirby is also a character that doesn't have many weaknesses: he's small, hard to hit, has a quick grab with crazy grab range, one of the best f-smashes in the game, a b-air that goes through almost all of MK's moves, a nice 0% - 35%+ combo, great recovery, and very useful tilts.

Here's what you do.
1.) Perfect the timing for nailing f-smashes or grabs on MK's that air dodge toward the ground from the air. The only thing MK can do against Kirby when he's above him is spaced d-airs; besides that, he's completely vulnerable. When an MK is trying to attack from above, just shield and respond with an up-tilt or a quick b-air.

2.) Once MK's stop trying to attack from above, they'll realize they have a better chance coming at you face to face. However, since MK is always in the air (or can be knocked in the air), it's good for you always position yourself under MK by running under him and trying to stay under him. The reason for this is because when MK -really- wants to land to get his ground game going, the most habitual tactic is to air dodge to the ground. As said before well-timed f-smashes and grabs will get you either an early kill, or a grab that will put MK back into the air to repeat the process.

3.) Speaking of grabs, always f-throw at 0%. At low %'s, do d-throw. If the MK doesn't DI correctly, you CAN combo this into an aerial.

4.) Space your b-airs. It's almost IMPOSSIBLE for a MK to break Kirby's WOP since he can immediately follow up his b-air with an up-tilt. If you space correctly and patiently, most MK's will switch to a style where they come dash in range and shield in order to make you whiff. If you can SEE this play style developing, be a step ahead and go in for a dash grab.

5.) Once they feel uncomfortable with the ground/shield game, MK's will then attempt to space their f-airs either defensively or offensively. If it's defensively, it's a WOP battle, but if its offensively... hooray! Your b-air goes through his f-air each time if you space it correctly.

6.) Edgeguard MK. Again, your b-air is awesome. It goes through his glide attack. If he tries to smarten up and tries to use tornado, have a f-smash prepped because guess what...? F-smash also goes through tornado. This is how you can get so many kills against MK because most of them won't be DI'ing correctly and/or expecting it.

Asidioh, I could go ON and ON and ON about this match-up. The most important thing I can tell you is that you're not losing to MK just because MK is a better character. You're mainly losing to MK because you're not thinking ahead enough steps in the future. Great players find patterns and habits before the end of the first stock. If you get better at this (mindgames), it will make your matches against MK infinitely easier. Guaranteed.

*To Everyone Else*
If I wanted to beat MK's without using MK, I would choose between Snake, Diddy, Olimar, Kirby, and Wario. I would also try to use MK ALOT so I could understand his pros and cons a little better.

just something that guy said about MK, it seemed useful so I'll post it here.

I don't know what characters he plays, but he seems to really know what he's talking about for Kirby vs MK.

~Shao~ · Nov 26, 2008

Character: Lucario
Difficulty rating: 50-50 or 45-55
Overview: Lucario's usually camp since they have a reliable projectile, when they aren't camping they're being defensive, abusing his disjointed hitboxes and his broken range f-smash.
Pros: hard to combo because of his floatiness, disjointed hitboxes, projectile, more damage = more power and as long as he isn't KO'd sideways, he can probably come back.
Cons: predictable and gimpable up-b, light weight, low KO potencial at low percentages.
Watch out for: forward smash, has long, disjointed and deceptive hitbox; d-air, C-C-C-C-combo breaker.
How to win: I get aggresive in this match-up, trying to overwhelm him so he can't camp or charge his aura sphere, however, you got to be careful because of his range on some attacks like f-smash, one wrong approach you do can cost you a stock at higher percentages. Space your aerials, abuse your b-air and tilts for spacing, copy his power to camp back. When he's recovering, d-air him out of his up-b or use aerial hammer. Landing a f-smash to score the kills can be hard depending on their spacing, so try being unpredictable with it.
Spit out or Swallow?: definately swallow, this prevents him from camping so much and Kirby's aura sphere is stronger until Lucario has ~90%. But since his up-b doesn't do any damage, spiting him under the stage can score some easy stage-spikes.
What NOT to do: rush down recklessly, **** you broken f-smash; let him camp you, swallow him and camp back.
Stages: I really don't know, Battlefield the platforms can benefit you or just as easily screw you over, although he has an easy time camping under them, he can wall cling to recover in Yoshi's story. Out of the neutrals, I think your best bet would be FD and Smashville. From the counter-picks, I like Frigate Orpheon, but I think Lucario's like there too.
Synopsis: get aggresive and don't let him camp, space yourself with aerials and tilts and try juggling him, always watching out for his d-air. Gimp him, otherwise this match can take forever.

tedward2000 · Nov 27, 2008

I will say this.

Lucario's Ground game is best suited for Defense. F-smash,Tilts, jabs to aerials... Its to push you away.

Kirby is a in-your-face kinda fighting style. You can't get into lucario's face easily if the Lucario is good.

This time you'll have to take it to the air. Kirbys air control and quick moves will help out a ton. (I know this cause my Kirbs is better then my cario, shhh... dont tell everyone else back at the cario boards, XD)

I'm not going to give a #:# cause that gets people nowhere. But In order to win, your going to have to get really close and stay hugging him, and Kill Lucario.

Cause Aura Boost is a ***** to fight against.
-t2

Asdioh · Nov 27, 2008

tedward2000 said:
Cause Aura Boost is a ***** to fight against.
-t2

T_T I was ahead of Blood_hawk by a good % on last stock, but then he racked up damage and killed me quickly because of that D:

Shao, good post, only thing you didn't mention is that Lucario can use DAir on you right after you Copy. So don't use Copy if you're at a high %.

fsdfsdgsgdf · Nov 27, 2008

Even if you copy lucario, doesn't charging the attack deal damage to you somewhat?

fox219 · Nov 27, 2008

Cool! very cool indeed! Kirby is awesome!

tedward2000 · Nov 27, 2008

Suspect said:
Even if you copy lucario, doesn't charging the attack deal damage to you somewhat?

I think I get what your saying, not sure though.

If your talking about the Aura Sphere charge doing damage, Both Cario's and Kirbys's aura sphere charge can do damage.

Both charge it behind themselves, so even If you did start charging it (that would have to be lightning fast) Lucario's Dair is still faster (has more priority anyways) and will end up hitting kirby. This is the same case for shooting him out too.

If your a hat collector, suck him up early, or else-wise take some powerful aura to the face.
-t2

~Shao~ · Nov 28, 2008

MK26 said:
-I like videos. Give me videos. Lots of videos.

I have 3 videos of me playing my friend's Lucario, hope it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3NfGPJBDXI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CSvSoActFY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M20u0XqH6FE

MK26 · Nov 29, 2008

In my opinion, Lucario is at an advantage against Kirby. Simply put, Lucario can shut Kirby down on the ground and compete with him in the air. The matchup should be 65-35.

However, that's not taking 2 things into account:
1) Kirby can suck up Lucario and steal Aura Sphere. Kirby is now a camping machine.
2) Kirby can easily gimp Lucario's Up-B.

And therefore, I'm probably going to leave it at 45-55.

One question: If you inhale a Lucario and swallow him while falling (read: while not on the ground), can he hit you with the D-air on release?

Also, I feel like discussing TL next week. Any comments?

Loledit:

None at all?

Character: Toon Link

Uhhn...too...weak...d-air has...too much lag...

Difficulty rating: 50-50?

Fabian the Fastman · Nov 30, 2008

Well on one thought... Why the hell do TL players think they have such a large advantage over us? (I remember that they said the matchup is 70:30 in Toon Link's favor)

Lord Viper · Nov 30, 2008

50-50?! No way, it must be around 60-40 Kirby's favor. I'll explain later when I don't sound like a random scrub.

Gnes · Dec 1, 2008

I guess ill start off the discussion with my 2 cents...

Firstly the only toon link ive played in a creditable tourney is Santi. We played first round at HOBO 11(no seeding) and i won 2-1. With that said i believe this matchup is in toon link's favor...but not by much. Toon links vast degrees of spam makes him basically and impossibly to approach without perfect shielding. Once again like with Lucario u will have to become aggresor because Tink's will never approach u without at least a 75% chance that'll hit u with a good attack(nair or bair)

Tink's main approach and retreat will be the zair...if its spaced correctly it is unpunishable...in my opinion its probably one of the best pokes in the game...also after the zair be wary of arrow cancels since they usually will happen...

For a little on kirby's side...once u get inside his range its pretty easy...in my experience no combo really worked thanks to Tink's floatyness but thanks to some improvising i got off some 40% combos and such...gimping can be chore on some stages thanks to Tinks bomb control...I would think bair is okay to gimp but the people i play against tech stage spikes so

...

I think the greatest advantage for kirby in this matchup is to stay alive...in all of our matches except for Santi's cp FD... I lived to basically the 180%'s...this is not a testament to santi not being able to kill...but tinks obvious kill moves(U-air...U-smash...D-smash...etc..) that can be seen a mile away...

The match will take a long time...each of my matches went basically near or pass the time limit except my CP so without patience this matchup is basically an impossibly...

Matchup... 40-60 Toon links favor

fsdfsdgsgdf · Dec 1, 2008

I remember i played a TL that sat back and spammed so i eventually i copied his powers spammed back....he got mad and i made him approach....handled my bizness

jiovanni007 · Dec 1, 2008

MK26 said:
In my opinion, Lucario is at an advantage against Kirby. Simply put, Lucario can shut Kirby down on the ground and compete with him in the air. The matchup should be 65-35.

However, that's not taking 2 things into account:
1) Kirby can suck up Lucario and steal Aura Sphere. Kirby is now a camping machine.
2) Kirby can easily gimp Lucario's Up-B.

And therefore, I'm probably going to leave it at 45-55.

lolwut? I'm the one that brought up Lucario so I feel like I should say something. Moving the match from 65:35 to 45:55 because he becomes a camping machine and he can gimp his up B isn't exactly fair. The trouble about gimping Luke's up B is that he doesn't use it often. Proper DI, air dodging, fair and just drifting actually makes it very hard to gimp Lucario. In most situations the only time he'll actually have to up B is if he doesn't DI properly which usually isn't the case in higher level play. Kirby also doesn't camp that well with Aura Sphere. In context you make it sound like ROB's laser when not nearly that good.

As far as Toon Link goes I feel 50:50 is fair. Toon Link can outcamp always but gets owned up close. Kirby attacks way faster and TL's lightness doesn't help survivability. Stages come into play here a lot. Any campy stage and TL >> Kirby any close stage Kirby = TL. It sucks to be CPed by a TL.

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