The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

momochuu · Feb 1, 2009

...DK is too strong and too fast. If we didn't have the grab combo, we'd probably get wrecked. -_-;

Super armor on some good moves, ridiculous kill power, fast attacks, and that Down B wrecks most approaches.

50-50.

MK26 · Feb 1, 2009

Ive got a replay of my brother (DK) vs myself (Kirby, obv) where the momentum swings massively, from me kicking his *** to him kicking mine.

Anybody I can send it to to upload it?

That's basically how this matchup goes - its a battle for momentum

Ripple · Feb 1, 2009

I wish I would play your kirby kawaii it would be more fun than your ICs.

anyways you guys have hit it pretty much spot on. 50-50

A1lion835 · Feb 1, 2009

Edit:Ignore this post.

fsdfsdgsgdf · Feb 1, 2009

A1lion835 said:
Edit:Ignore this post.

im trying but i cant

i1337 · Feb 1, 2009

id say 55-45 kirby because of those stupid grab combos, lol.

EDIT: lol kawaii bunny.

ExCeL 52 · Feb 1, 2009

Kirby definitely has the advantage over Dk. Because of his size, his grabs, his combos, his meteor smash .. Bleh bleh bleh
I think its 60:40

~Zack~ · Feb 1, 2009

kirby just owns =/ if ur good w/ him he has a advantage over almost all characters

fsdfsdgsgdf · Feb 1, 2009

If that was the case he would be higher tier

MasterCheeze · Feb 1, 2009

I think it's 50-50. Kirby is just a combination of issues we have with two other characters: Pikachu and Game and Watch. Kirby can get a huge head start with his grab combos (just like Pikachu can CG) and then Kirby's overpowered for someone his weight just like G&W although DK obviously wins in that department.

choice_brawler · Feb 1, 2009

Yea this match up is definitely 50-50 or at least close. I wouldn't say kirby has advantage and even go to say that he might have a disadvantage 45-55. You guys say grab combos are what save us, well DK is supposed to be one of the toughest characters to grab because of his spacing game. The gimp on his recovery is nice, but we can only gimp him in one manner, so he'll be looking out for that. Unless if you guys are talking about something other than just drilling DK for a gimp o.o DK's huge range gives me trouble at least. Combo-ing on him is easy cheesy but getting in his range is another story. Neither character has a hard time killing the other, though DK has it easier IMO, as long as they save the dsmash at least.

Asdioh · Feb 1, 2009

i1337 said:
id say 55-45 kirby because of those stupid grab combos, lol.

ExCeL 52 said:
Kirby definitely has the advantage over Dk. Because of his size, his grabs, his combos, his meteor smash .. Bleh bleh bleh
I think its 60:40

~Zack~ said:
kirby just owns =/ if ur good w/ him he has a advantage over almost all characters

What is this madness o_o

The way I see it, Kirby's advantages have been getting smaller and smaller as the 'metagame' advances. Not by much, but some matchups have changed.

Donkey Kong is pretty easy to combo, but good DI will save him from getting wrecked too badly. The low % throw combos won't even add up to more than 36% max if DK is smart.

MasterCheeze said:
I think it's 50-50. Kirby is just a combination of issues we have with two other characters: Pikachu and Game and Watch. Kirby can get a huge head start with his grab combos (just like Pikachu can CG) and then Kirby's overpowered for someone his weight just like G&W although DK obviously wins in that department.

Indeed, I definitely do not see this matchup in Kirby's advantage at all. DK has a superior ground game, and a better Bair. And of course, insane kill power.

One mindset I have never understood though... "Kirby's overpowered for someone his weight"

Being light is usually both an advantage because you're harder (kinda) to combo, and a disadvantage because you'll get KOed earlier (this is noticable)

I've never understood why someone should be made gimpy and be given low kill power just because they're light >_> doesn't make sense to me.

choice_brawler said:
Yea this match up is definitely 50-50 or at least close. I wouldn't say kirby has advantage and even go to say that he might have a disadvantage 45-55. You guys say grab combos are what save us, well DK is supposed to be one of the toughest characters to grab because of his spacing game. The gimp on his recovery is nice, but we can only gimp him in one manner, so he'll be looking out for that. Unless if you guys are talking about something other than just drilling DK for a gimp o.o DK's huge range gives me trouble at least. Combo-ing on him is easy cheesy but getting in his range is another story. Neither character has a hard time killing the other, though DK has it easier IMO, as long as they save the dsmash at least.

I pretty much agree with this. I used to think DK was pretty easy, but after playing good ones, his range is just too much to deal with. You could say to camp and force DK to approach, but come on. Final Cutter sucks, and even if you do force him to approach, his Bair and tilts are pretty darn good at their job.

DK's smashes come out super fast, and reach across the entire stage. You WILL get hit by them, and you WILL die.

I shall put this 55-45 Donkey Kong's advantage. Not much in his favor, but the range and strength are what do it.

CBK · Feb 1, 2009

I dont' agree with saying 50- 50 Sure kirby has pretty good Dair trip Fsmash or gimp drill. The combo's that Kirby has don't actually mean a thing if a DK player spaces him right, With good DI a Dk will live a lot longer than any kirby.

I believe it's a 60-40 I know I know you won't agree, from my experience fighting KOSK, JLB, and T!mmy, I don't find this matchup hard at all what so ever.

KoSa! · Feb 1, 2009

Kirby
+Grab combo gets a free 20% maybe more
+Great recovery which will prevent any aerial pursuit
+Very easy to gimp DK's "Spinning Kong"
+Quickness and can do other combos on DK

-Lightweight leads to easier ko's (DK Fsmash uncharged kills Mario @ 60%)
-Tilts
-SA punch nuff said
-Spacing Bairs

Almost everything in a nutshell.
50:50

CBK same it doesnt seem to difficult to me, but I play a different DK

SmileyStation · Feb 1, 2009

50:50, mainly cause of luigi's mansiGODISRSLYHATETHATSTAGENOW >.<

Asdioh · Feb 1, 2009

What do you mean, Smiley?

If anything, Kirby would have the advantage on that stage. High ceiling, ceilings that can lead to jablocks... projectile through the pillars (lol Final Cutter is so bad)

SmileyStation · Feb 1, 2009

get hit once by a tilt. It will be the most ******** match for the next 2 minutes. Dont ever cp that stage against dk. dear god.

CBK · Feb 1, 2009

Please I love that stage, no but seriously spacing Kirby is easy with DK because of the way his moves hit. Kirby is one of my easiest matchups in tournament. Sure get surprised every once in a while, but not hard at all.

Luigi's.....excuse me that there is called CBK's mansion! And BTW the not able to chase off stage your joking right. His small jumps and verticle up b are so easy to destroy with SA punch bair down air.

20% Dk can do that with a tilt or two, The spin kong is only easy to gimp if the DK isn't smart. He can stay in one spot and wait for drill before moving forward. Sure not saying it's super impossible or anything but it's not as easy as it would seem.

choice_brawler · Feb 1, 2009

Yea seriously, DK's edge guarding is pretty beast. Expect to be air dodging like your life depends on it, cuz it will. Just dont air dodge predictably or you will be punished. I'd say try to recover as high as possible, cuz DK's options decrease to uairs instead of the repeated bairs of death and dairs of deception (yea i'm having fun describing this). Much less things to worry about. Uair is pretty good all the same for DK, im not sure what % it kills or anything like that, but i know its not pleasant to be hit by one. Why not take him to RC or FO instead of CBK's mansion?

DFat2 · Feb 1, 2009

While Kirby has good combo options for DK. Uptilt into probably any aerial with DK only being able to air dodge to be really safe. Dtilt>Fsmash is good thanks to DK's large size. His Gimping game get's better against DK.

Kirby is a close combat character in general. He has good priority moves and grabs that ooze sexiness.

Now, how can you apply all that if you can't get near the opponent. DK's Dtilt out ranges all of Kirby's ground moves, and out prioritizes them. You can try to poke his shield with DTilt and couldn't be grabbed. Kirby kills DK Over 110 but DK kills Kirby at 80.

It's pretty even, 55 in favor of DK. But that's only if Kirby get's the first hit so DK has to approach. Any other case would be 60/40. Seriously, any match up where one character has to be over 110 to kill the other one while the other one needs to be 85+ isn't even.

This match is:

Kirby vs. DK
_40______60_

I'm calling it 60/40 in favor of DK do to good spacing potential and superior killing potential.

momochuu · Feb 1, 2009

Oh yeah. Do NOT roll when fighting DK. I know you'd want to because his power is so overwhelming but it's not a good idea at all.

fsdfsdgsgdf · Feb 1, 2009

People need to get out of the habit of rolling period, or atleast keep it to bare minimum

choice_brawler · Feb 1, 2009

Suspect said:
People need to get out of the habit of rolling period, or atleast keep it to bare minimum

Agreed. I know im guilty, i've acknowledged the bad habit though and have been working on fixing it and have been doing much better since.

~Kawaii Bunny~ said:
Oh yeah. Do NOT roll when fighting DK. I know you'd want to because his power is so overwhelming but it's not a good idea at all.

Especially not behind DK. I know its tempting "Ah a laggy looking attack, i'll sneak behind with my roll, bwahaha" NO! bad! Seriously DK's moves for the most part arent really laggy and i cant even think up anything that has a large enough cool down time to be punished after rolling behind him. This should not mean, though: shield everything. Shielding DK's crap is gonna screw over your shield fast and if not careful break it. A broken shield would give DK an easy kill on you, charge up one of those killer smashes or land one of those donkey punches and you are gone.

IC3R · Feb 2, 2009

Wall of Text ftw

Unfortunately, it turns out that DK is one of the characters that the Gonzo Combo won't work on; NinjaLink plays a pretty beast DK, and was able to escape it every time it was attempted. We'll have to switch up the aerials after the F-Throw if we want to get anywhere, or we could Inhale him and steal his Giant PAUNCH :dizzy:

Actually, I think that the Giant PAUNCH can be used right after an F-Throw, but I don't know the exact amount of frames that the foe has to react after the hitstun of the F-Throw.

I've done a little scan over DK's frame data, watched a few videos, and read up on theultimodragon's DK page (which, by the way, is here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5216225&postcount=2); I have determined that DK is quite the troublesome foe for Kirby. I think that the match-up could indeed be in DK's favor: (Kirby) 45 :: 55 (DK), 40 :: 60 maximum.
Reasoning: Donkey Kong can survive to high perecnts, has great spacing techniques, and actually has moves that are about as fast as Kirby's--but twice as powerful.

For a guy without a projectile, DK does really well at spacing; his F- and D-Tilts alone swing past maybe 2-2.5 Marios away. He's one of the faster Heavies, and his Spinning Kong covers horizontal distance only rivaled by Bowser's Whirling Fortress. His Throwing game is excellent, being able to Cargo Stage Spike when necessary, and his B-Throw can kill Kirby ~140% from the middle of Final Destination (IIRC), and ~80% on stages with close horizontal blast zones (Jungle Japes, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise), granted he is near the edge of the stage when doing so. Main point: DK can KO well in all directions--

F-Smash, Giant Punch, and B-Throw for horizontal;
U-Smash and U-Air for vertical (up); and
F-Air, D-Air, and Headbutt for spikes.

Donkey Kong capitalizes on mis-timed dodges, rolls, and the shieldstun caused by his Smashes, allowing for yet another Smash, or a free Throw. You do not want DK to ~~manha~~ apehandle you. If you are above or behind him in the air, he has his super-fast U- and B-Airs to smack you around. Speaking of DK's B-air, I'd say it's actually his best attack; it outprioritzes a lot of other aerials and Glide Attacks, it cancels out projectiles like Samus' Super Missiles or Tink's Boomerang, and can Wall of Pain to an extent. It's landing lag is also pretty minimal.

Anyway, enough about DK's awesomeness level (which is OVER 9000, by the way), we need to focus on how to beat out this ape's range with our little puffball. Quick combos seem to be the best way to go, because DK is such a large target and is heavy, but the problem is getting in his range. Our ground approaches are for the most part ruined by his fast and wide Tilts, as well as his Ground Slap. Aerial approaches can be handled by U-Tilts, U-Airs, and B-Airs. If you can force him into the air, however, you can probably juggle with U- and F-Airs.

If DK gets knocked offstage, all he has is his Spinning Kong, which makes for a very predictable recovery. Unfortunately for us, the SK has INVINCIBILTY FRAMES on its startup, so mis-timed D-Air spikes will have the Kirby Boards facepalming in shame whilst the DK Boards laugh themselves half to death.

choice_brawler said:
No one's mentioned DK's u-tilt.

EDIT:: Added to anti-air moves. Other than that, don't have much to add.

-IC3R, Official Star Warrior
BTW IM OVER 9000!!!1!!1!!!!!

choice_brawler · Feb 2, 2009

No one's mentioned DK's utilt. I dunno how much DK's like to use it, but i do know that when you're behind him, you will get hit if he uses this attack. I figure maybe DK could do some bairs and utilts to fend off our air based approaches from behind.

DK also has that GFSC (grounded foot stool combo), i doubt we'll see much of that though. Last i checked 2 people have pulled it off in tourneys, though maybe the DK's have implemented it more.

Percon · Feb 2, 2009

This is a really interesting and fun matchup.

I'm short on time right now, but I think it's even. At first I thought Kirby had the advantage, then I thought DK had the advantage, but now I think it's even.

NinjaLink · Feb 2, 2009

I already told ppl ANY CHARACTER CAN ESCAPE THE GONZO COMBO. EVERY SINGLE ONE. EVEN FOX......*breathes*

Lord Viper · Feb 2, 2009

☆ Ok, so what if a Kirby main don't depend on the Gonzo Combo, because I don't use it a lot, just once in a blue moon, but that doesn't mean that Donkey Kong is safe from Kirby's grab combo's if Kirby grabs him. ☆

CBK · Feb 2, 2009

Dk is a very anti grab character, most of his moves are quick enough and reach far enough to stop a real fast grab approach. Not to mention ground slap, you can't move in on the ground on DK. Thats the mistake a lot of matchups make against him.

Lord Viper · Feb 2, 2009

☆ That I can agree to, when I fought JV's Donkey Kong, I was able to grab him twice in one match, Donkey Kong's D-Tilt or Down-B can be a pain because of it's range, that's why I recomend the Kirby mainers to attack from the sky's because most of Kirby's fast and effective attacks are from the air. Or use D-Air > Grab, my kind of style. =D ☆

Asdioh · Feb 2, 2009

DFat1 said:
Seriously, any match up where one character has to be over 110 to kill the other one while the other one needs to be 85+ isn't even.

Thus why I don't understand the "Kirby is equal to, or better than, Snake" logic >_>

IC3R said:
Unfortunately, it turns out that DK is one of the many characters that the Gonzo Combo won't work on

fixed...oh wait..

NinjaLink said:
I already told ppl ANY CHARACTER CAN ESCAPE THE GONZO COMBO. EVERY SINGLE ONE. EVEN FOX......*breathes*

ok, so my fix wasn't drastic enough.

Then from my understanding, Fthrow->uair is inescapable, and after that, NOTHING is guaranteed.

Breathing is good.

Copy or Starshot?

o_O

I'd say it's viable either way, but it depends on how comfortable you are with Giant Punch, and how likely you think a Kirbycide/Starshot gimp will be. If you like to use Inhale->Starshot as an offensive move onstage, then obviously don't Copy his power. I can see Inhale being a good mixup approach move for DKs that shield and try to grab your aerial approaches. Conversely, Giant Punch is a great KO move with freaking superarmor, and though Kirby's reach isn't as great as Dawnkey Kawng's, it's still deceptively large.

fromundaman · Feb 2, 2009

DFat1 said:
It's pretty even, 55 in favor of DK. But that's only if Kirby get's the first hit so DK has to approach. Any other case would be 60/40. Seriously, any match up where one character has to be over 110 to kill the other one while the other one needs to be 85+ isn't even.

Ummm... MK vs Kirby, Ganon vs Kirby, Mario vs Kirby, Falcon vs Kirby, Ike vs Kirby, Lucas vs Kirby, Probably Luigi vs Kirby, Wario vs Kirby, to name only Kirby matchups. Would you put ALL of these against the character who kills a lot earlier?

As for DK, I'll admit I only have limited experience with this matchup, as I tend to pull out Mario vs DK, but the few times I have played them, I seemed very much able to combo Dthrow into a few Utilts into some Uairs. However, they probably could have escaped earlier... I don't really know.

Also, everything else you guys mentioned seems spot on.
Can we inhale the ape out of his Bair by any chance?
I think FC actually beats his Bair, though he can probably DI out of the second hit then punish our lag, so that might not be a good option.

It's pretty easy to gimp DK though. Yeah, as someone said, they'll be on the lookout for it, but their recovery is bad when it comes to vertical range, and the landing lag on it is atrocious, which doesn't give them a big window to use it when recovering. All they can really try to do is headbutt stall, but we should have enough jumps to wait it out and still drill>footstool them. Personally, I think this is the biggest thing going for us in this matchup. If he tries to recover higher than the stage, don't even bother trying to get above him and drill, just wait on the ground and Fsmash him during his lag.

Also, get DK's power if you can. It's a great kill move that gives SA, and can also be used to survive punches/smashes (Best way to punish a Fsmash if you're in range is with this power). Just remember your range is MUCH smaller than DK's.

EDIT:

Asdioh said:
Then from my understanding, Fthrow->uair is inescapable, and after that, NOTHING is guaranteed.

The Uair isn't guaranteed on every character either. Mario/Marth can UpB, Mario/Luigi/Shiek/Yoshi/probably Samus can Nair, ZSS can DownB, Snake can pull a grenade, MK *might* be able to do an aerial or SL, and there's probably other things I don't know about/am forgetting at the moment.

So yeah, general rule: fast move, Sex kicks, and fast moves with invulnerability beat it.

CBK · Feb 2, 2009

Bair does have a separate hitbox from DK, and it can hit kirby out of inhale without triggering SA frames in inhale.

NinjaLink · Feb 2, 2009

Asdioh said:
Then from my understanding, Fthrow->uair is inescapable, and after that, NOTHING is guaranteed.

actually that isnt even guaranteed.....dk can up-b out of it....i kno snake can grenade(frame 1) before the uair comes out and DKs up-b has the super armor frame 1.

CBK · Feb 2, 2009

SA frames isn't frame one, just after on ground. SK goes invincible shortly after start up.

NinjaLink · Feb 2, 2009

u sure? DK can escape falcos CG

Asdioh · Feb 2, 2009

fromundaman said:
The Uair isn't guaranteed on every character either. Mario/Marth can UpB, Mario/Luigi/Shiek/Yoshi/probably Samus can Nair, ZSS can DownB, Snake can pull a grenade, MK *might* be able to do an aerial or SL, and there's probably other things I don't know about/am forgetting at the moment.

So yeah, general rule: fast move, Sex kicks, and fast moves with invulnerability beat it.

NinjaLink said:
actually that isnt even guaranteed.....dk can up-b out of it....i kno snake can grenade(frame 1) before the uair comes out and DKs up-b has the super armor frame 1.

This is true, I wasn't thinking. Hell, Uair doesn't even hit Sheik period, she has a weird hitbox, she's like, really skinny and bendy, and Kirby's feet just go through the air in front of her. >_>

And yes, there are tons of ways to escape the Fthrow->uair combo. I was just talking about DI alone: not counters.

That's what makes it interesting though! It's not like Melee where you just hit a sandbag-like character all over the place because of hitstun. edit: maybe I should say Smash 64... that has even more hitstun, and reminds me more strongly of beating up the Sandbag.

I love the mindgames involved with combos/chains in Brawl...like if Snake's expecting Uair, and pulls out a grenade, but I don't do Uair....that's another free grab for me. If Marth Dolphin Slashes, but I pull back instead of following up, that's another anything for me, because of his huge landing lag.

Can Donkey Kong seriously Up+B before the Uair? o_o

NinjaLink · Feb 2, 2009

lol i believe so. I remember it happening to me. Yes with DI u cant escape the uair but everything else u can. Dont quote me on it though. Being theres no frames of SA under him. Its pretty weird.

CBK · Feb 2, 2009

Trust me shield grabbed Falco Chain grab you can't escape, snake can't even pull a nade if the grab is done correctly. Invincible we have all the frame data up if you want to look it up.

NinjaLink · Feb 2, 2009

CBK said:
Trust me shield grabbed Falco Chain grab you can't escape, snake can't even pull a nade if the grab is done correctly. Invincible we have all the frame data up if you want to look it up.

this i kno.......but it isnt shield cancelled grabbing, its walking grabs.

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