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Ike's Neutral A combo

deadpoe7

Smash Apprentice
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Okay, ^^^ THAT! Whenever I play my buddy who uses Ike, he spams the neutral combo whenever I'm close. :mad:The problem is, he always gets me with it! Even when I block it, he just follows it up with another one, and Ganondorf is NEVER fast enough to roll away. How do I get out of this, or possibly punish him?
 

Gleam

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Neutral A, F-tilt, D-tilt. Any attack really...Ike's neutral combo has poor range, besides the third sword hit and just all of your attacks have better priority. If you can't mearly just out prioritorize him, perfect shield.

Not hard.
 

A2ZOMG

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There is one thing you need to be good at in order to beat Ike (especially if you are a character with good range like Ganondorf).

Shielding.

Shielding SCREWS IKE BADLY. If you shield, Ike basically has only one safe option, and that's a retreating F-air. You can punish almost everything he does with F-tilt out of shield if you can put him in a corner. If he starts charging quick draw, jump out of shield to a platform btw. Or U-tilt if you're feeling lucky (why? Because the wind effect will gimp Ike).

Now don't forget, it's not like Ike doesn't have tricks he can do from a shield. Ganondorf is also a character that is vulnerable to being punished from shield. Ike also does have the advantage on Ganondorf due to Ganondorf's recovery being worse. Otherwise it's a VERY close matchup.
 

deadpoe7

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Thanks A2ZOMG, I'll remember that. Now that you mention it, I realize that 9 times out of 10, when I'm Ganon and my buddy is Ike, the reason one of us wins is that the other one screwed up.
 

Meian

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Smarter Ike players will just cancel their jab and go into grab if you shield often (which he has a fairly large range for). I have been the victim of this many times...
 

Akashi

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There is one thing you need to be good at in order to beat Ike (especially if you are a character with good range like Ganondorf).

Shielding.

Shielding SCREWS IKE BADLY. If you shield, Ike basically has only one safe option, and that's a retreating F-air. You can punish almost everything he does with F-tilt out of shield if you can put him in a corner. If he starts charging quick draw, jump out of shield to a platform btw. Or U-tilt if you're feeling lucky (why? Because the wind effect will gimp Ike).

Now don't forget, it's not like Ike doesn't have tricks he can do from a shield. Ganondorf is also a character that is vulnerable to being punished from shield. Ike also does have the advantage on Ganondorf due to Ganondorf's recovery being worse. Otherwise it's a VERY close matchup.
You don't have much match-up experience with Ike, I'm assuming. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just saying your counterpoints about Ike is misleading. First off, shielding doesn't screw up Ike at all. He has one of the quickest jab cancels in the game, and can literally jab to shield grab quicker before you can react unless you perfect shield the first hit. Ike can easily jab>jab>shield grab, or jab>shield grab, or jab>jab>cancel>jab>jab>shield grab to mind-game you. He is NOT predictable when it comes to Jabs, and it's literally his staple move. It also comes out on frame 4, which means it's f*cking fast as hell, so you can easily reverse jab somebody if they're behind you.

As far as f-airs? First off, Ganondorf's range doesn't exceed the tip of Ike's sword, so you can't "punish with almost everything". Your only options are a) down-B, b) forward-B, c) fsmash (pretty sure this has enough range but I'm not quite sure). Ike's fair also has IASA frames, so he can easily spot-dodge whatever move you throw at him if you space it correctly. Also uair is one of the worst moves you can possibly use on Ike unless you're trying to do a half-*** edge-guard<_<. Ike can counter the wind from his uair so you don't even have to properly time it to stop Gdorf.

Don't underestimate Ike.
 

deadpoe7

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I played a couple of matches with my bud who uses Ike. I owned seriously, mostly because I started playing smarter. But there were a couple things I noticed about Ike's neutral A combo: The only move that was fast enough to get in between that second and third hit was the thunderpalm, providing I didn't get hit by the first two jabs of the combo. Also, if you're close enough to Ike, you can shield-grab him in the middle of the combo at just about any time. Consequently, I was able to avoid the combo much more successfully in the past.

Of course, probably none of this is news to you guys:laugh:
 

:034:

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I played against Empy again yesterday (Ike main, wrote the guide with Kirk) and he got me with this all the time. Jab jab grab and the usual jab combo is a powerful weapon, but I believe there is one counter for it now: the sidestep. If you time it right, you can avoid the last jab or the grab. Of course, if you do this too much, the Ike player will read you and just grab you after the sidestep.
 

A2ZOMG

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You don't have much match-up experience with Ike, I'm assuming. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just saying your counterpoints about Ike is misleading. First off, shielding doesn't screw up Ike at all. He has one of the quickest jab cancels in the game, and can literally jab to shield grab quicker before you can react unless you perfect shield the first hit. Ike can easily jab>jab>shield grab, or jab>shield grab, or jab>jab>cancel>jab>jab>shield grab to mind-game you. He is NOT predictable when it comes to Jabs, and it's literally his staple move. It also comes out on frame 4, which means it's f*cking fast as hell, so you can easily reverse jab somebody if they're behind you.
Quite on the contrary I've beaten Falconv1.0's Ike several times (online abeit, but he's like legitimately one of the best Ike users in NorCal).

Ike doesn't exactly have an amazing grab range and Ike is also bad at approaching. He will RARELY ever be in the range where he can shieldgrab you from a jab. His dash grab is considerably slower than his standing grab moreover, which you can sidestep or roll from fairly easily.

His jab can be punished by other attacks anyway, it's not like Ganon is always forced into being jab cancel grabbed, which by the way is not even a true combo.

D-tilt also outranges his jab significantly, which is also worth knowing, but Ike is more likely to Jab if you just did something punishable anyway so that isn't going to be applied particularly often.

As far as f-airs? First off, Ganondorf's range doesn't exceed the tip of Ike's sword, so you can't "punish with almost everything". Your only options are a) down-B, b) forward-B, c) fsmash (pretty sure this has enough range but I'm not quite sure). Ike's fair also has IASA frames, so he can easily spot-dodge whatever move you throw at him if you space it correctly. Also uair is one of the worst moves you can possibly use on Ike unless you're trying to do a half-*** edge-guard<_<. Ike can counter the wind from his uair so you don't even have to properly time it to stop Gdorf.
Ike has crap mobility so he's not Marth and thus he's not able to consistently camp by space things at the tip of his sword. Getting inside his range with a shield is not hard at all since all of his spacing attacks are slow. His landing lag on most aerials is bad. This is why the ONLY safe option for Ike is a retreating F-air.

U-tilt wind effect starts up fast, so you can initiate it just as Ike releases QD btw. And of course shielding it is a free tilt on Ike (F-tilt if you powershield or dodge, D-tilt if you normal shielded)

Don't underestimate Ike.
He's a mediocre character. However he does have the advantage on Ganondorf mainly because Ganondorf has worse recovery.
 

A2ZOMG

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Dammit, I just noticed, you live waaaaaaaaaay on the other side of the country from me. Like from corner to corner from me.

I'm gonna have a hell of a time doing this lololol.
 

Hoser

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Gah, its gonna lag. Well I guess the only fair thing to do is have you drive all the way to Maine and face me in an offline 1v1 XD
 

Akashi

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Ike has crap mobility so he's not Marth and thus he's not able to consistently camp by space things at the tip of his sword. Getting inside his range with a shield is not hard at all since all of his spacing attacks are slow. His landing lag on most aerials is bad. This is why the ONLY safe option for Ike is a retreating F-air.

U-tilt wind effect starts up fast, so you can initiate it just as Ike releases QD btw. And of course shielding it is a free tilt on Ike (F-tilt if you powershield or dodge, D-tilt if you normal shielded)

He's a mediocre character. However he does have the advantage on Ganondorf mainly because Ganondorf has worse recovery.
Um, wat? All of his attacks except a FF dair auto-cancels. Fair has IASA frames (unless you FF incorrectly), bair auto-cancels, and nair has almost zero lag no matter when you start the animation. And of course Ike is a mediocre character, but so is Gdorf, which is exactly why I said not to underestimate him.
 

A2ZOMG

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Um, wat? All of his attacks except a FF dair auto-cancels. Fair has IASA frames (unless you FF incorrectly), bair auto-cancels, and nair has almost zero lag no matter when you start the animation. And of course Ike is a mediocre character, but so is Gdorf, which is exactly why I said not to underestimate him.
Let me correct you because I've actually experimented around with Ike since he's one of my secondaries.

Only Ike's B-air autocancels from a shorthop. It's still not incredibly safe because the range and duration isn't that good. Ike is airborne in a lag phase for a significant time when autocanceling B-airs, and if you try to fastfall it you will incur landing lag which is pretty bad.

Ike's F-air and D-air autocancel from a fullhop. F-air is alright from a fullhop autocancel since you get to DI backwards a fair bit and it will hit tall characters like Ganondorf, but D-air is awful on block. Both aerials have pretty lousy landing lag, although the F-air at least has huge enough range to be good when spaced. B-air actually completes itself from a fullhop allowing you to do double jump aerials immediately afterwards.

N-air NEVER autocancels and the midair ending lag of it is horrible. True enough it has pretty low landing lag, but it's not exactly safe on block unless you space it perfectly since it doesn't have huge shieldstun or multiple hits to **** shields.

From what I've seen this matchup like is almost all about blocking and punishing and both characters do this pretty well to each other. Ike wins out a little bit however because Ganondorf is significantly easier to gimp. However, it should be noted that in general Ganondorf has significantly better edgeguarding than Ike due to being better at chasing his opponent offstage.
 

Gleam

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I actually think Ike is easier to Gimp than Ganon. Ike either has to recover purely vertically or purely horizontally which brings up a lot of problems. Ganondorf at least has a somewhat equal arrangement of both horizontal and verticle movement on his recovery. Plus he has his Flame Choke as a recovery/suicide.

Ike's Forward B is the most gimpable thing on Earth. You can merely jump in front of it and Ike dies. Not to mention most Ike's that I've seen won't even be able to perform a full forward B to cover the distance. Once Ike crosses under the line od the edge of the stage, no Forward B.

Aether suffers as well, it's almost purely verticle. Ike has to litterally be right next to the stage for him to recover.
 

Gleam

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In fact, and I don't mean to really change this topic to a Ganon V Ike Discussion or anything but Ganon has a good load of things over Ike in fact.

1) Better recovery and gimpability.

2) Better edgeguarding and offstage game.

3) Quicker attacks.

4.) Less lag!! (Slow *** Ganondorf is faster than Ike and I've seen nothing that prove elsewise.

5.) A superior Air game IMO. 3 short hops and one Full hop against Ike's one short hop. His aerials are must faster with almost equal KO power and some amazing gimpability by means of the tipman spike Uair. Plus way more.

6) Ground game is the same. Ganon is actually faster and less laggier than Ike. I think he even has all the Flame Choke follow ups on Ike and moves like F-tilt murders Ike because of its horizotal projectory and we all know how bad Ike's recovery is.
 

Rykoshet

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No really, I quit.
N-air NEVER autocancels and the midair ending lag of it is horrible. True enough it has pretty low landing lag, but it's not exactly safe on block unless you space it perfectly since it doesn't have huge shieldstun or multiple hits to **** shields.
Entirely incorrect, the issue is that when a move connects with anything it causes the animation of it to prolong and become more susceptible to punishment. You can use this to your advantage but it causes moves like a shielded nair to turn from something that DOES autocancel on landing (Fair's lag would be described as minimal if used correctly, nair is instant the second your feet hit the floor) to something that can be picked right out of the air if blocked correctly.

If we're going to do the whole ike vs ganon thing, I'd like to point out that there's little ganondorf can do about ike's aether recovery if done properly, which in this case would be done low (enough to have your feet land on the stage but well out of safe meteor range). If you dive down after him you stand to lose more than you do to gain, especially if any of your aerials catch his super armor because it's one of the few things that will cause YOU to sink like a rock after connecting. Your aerial game is worse, make no mistake about it, for one the down air may only autocancel on full hop but the 3 operative things are.

1- It ends before his feet hit the floor so he can actually double jump or move before ever becoming grounded.
2- It is a sex hit and will have a hitbox for longer than when he just throws it out
3- It's a sword, so it doesnt matter if he full hops it if it covers the entire area below him to the ground, which it does

Furthermore ike has 2 of the best anti aerial specials in the game. Your ground game against ike is honestly better, your jab outranges his by quite a lot so if you keep him at swordlength you beat him on connection time for your farther moves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jW7Xl_JJ1o

Note that
1) I actually do manage to lose this match after what looks like my win
2) That I'm not claiming anyone to be the end-all be all for their character

But importantly I'm going to point you to 0:39, where ganon clear as day shields my fair and even his ftilt can't make it out far enough in time to punish me for it. Secondly, I'm going to point out how much I whored a move that for some reason people forget Ike has, his grab. Ike's 2 best moves in this game don't involve his sword at all, and they link into eachother so seamlessly you can build someone to 100+ with just those 2 if you have to.

QD outranges flame choke's grab animation so worse to worst an ike can play chicken with you if he has to.

Less lag is false if the ike is playing correctly. On a "move by move" basis it boils down to tilts and ike has up tilt on you while you have down tilt on him. While ganon's up smash is wicked quick it has abysmal range, while ike's up smash when used correctly by ike is honestly not all THAT punishable, especially if he pivots it and brings the back end towards you. You're free to test this yourself, by the time you can do much of anything out of any response that isnt a power shield you're setting yourself up for a back air.

One more thing, go to 1:57 and tell me just how exactly that was "right next to the stage", don't underestimate aether.
 

deadpoe7

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I'm not sure if this is a common occurance, but the Ike I play will often just repeat the neutral A combo if you block the first one (since there is relatively zero lag when using it on Ganon). Maybe this will give you opportunities to roll behind and punish, at least until Ike smartens up.
 

A2ZOMG

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Entirely incorrect, the issue is that when a move connects with anything it causes the animation of it to prolong and become more susceptible to punishment. You can use this to your advantage but it causes moves like a shielded nair to turn from something that DOES autocancel on landing (Fair's lag would be described as minimal if used correctly, nair is instant the second your feet hit the floor) to something that can be picked right out of the air if blocked correctly.
No, N-air CLEARLY has a lot more than 4 frames of landing lag. It's not a whole ton I agree, maybe like 10 frames (just a guess), but that's enough time for you to be shieldgrabbed or jabbed if you didn't space this right. Ganon's D-tilt also outranges that I'd keep in mind so even if you do space that right on Ganon's shield, you still might get poked.

If we're going to do the whole ike vs ganon thing, I'd like to point out that there's little ganondorf can do about ike's aether recovery if done properly, which in this case would be done low (enough to have your feet land on the stage but well out of safe meteor range). If you dive down after him you stand to lose more than you do to gain, especially if any of your aerials catch his super armor because it's one of the few things that will cause YOU to sink like a rock after connecting. Your aerial game is worse, make no mistake about it, for one the down air may only autocancel on full hop but the 3 operative things are.
True, this is why Ike has the advantage on Ganon. Gimping aether is annoyingly hard so Ike survives longer against Ganon. Ganon has one of the worst recoveries in the game, so edgeguarding him is easy. Ganon however has a better air game for edgeguarding because everything he does comes out faster and has less ending lag, so he can actually chase his opponent with more than one aerial when he's offstage.

1- It ends before his feet hit the floor so he can actually double jump or move before ever becoming grounded.
2- It is a sex hit and will have a hitbox for longer than when he just throws it out
3- It's a sword, so it doesnt matter if he full hops it if it covers the entire area below him to the ground, which it does
You aren't actually going to hit someone with your fullhopped Down-air very often. It's easy to see coming and has no horizontal range, so it can be easily punished from all other directions since its fairly useless duration is SOOOOOO LONG.

But importantly I'm going to point you to 0:39, where ganon clear as day shields my fair and even his ftilt can't make it out far enough in time to punish me for it. Secondly, I'm going to point out how much I whored a move that for some reason people forget Ike has, his grab. Ike's 2 best moves in this game don't involve his sword at all, and they link into eachother so seamlessly you can build someone to 100+ with just those 2 if you have to.
Ganon's longest range attack is like D-tilt, but anyhow, the point I'm trying to make is Ike can't approach Ganon most of the time or he risks getting punished.

QD outranges flame choke's grab animation so worse to worst an ike can play chicken with you if he has to.
QD is almost unusable because of horrible ending lag on block. Flame Choke is UNBLOCKABLE.

Less lag is false if the ike is playing correctly. On a "move by move" basis it boils down to tilts and ike has up tilt on you while you have down tilt on him. While ganon's up smash is wicked quick it has abysmal range, while ike's up smash when used correctly by ike is honestly not all THAT punishable, especially if he pivots it and brings the back end towards you. You're free to test this yourself, by the time you can do much of anything out of any response that isnt a power shield you're setting yourself up for a back air.
Flame Choke can probably easily punish that
 

Hoser

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Flame choke is so easy to avoid. A simple spot-dodge will make it miss, and he'll have lag afterwords. I'll be glad to show you in our battle tomorrow :)
 

A2ZOMG

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True you can spot dodge it on reaction, however it's still a great move for punishing lag due to its great range and because it's unblockable. It does take some time for invincibility frames to come out when you initiate a dodge keep in mind.

I get home from school at around uh...2:00 Pacific Time (which will be like 5:00 for you). I'll try to hit you up on AIM sometime after that when I'm ready.
 

Hoser

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Has this been brought up?

Even with all this talk let's remember this: What's more satisfying? Pulling off Ganon's Warlock Punch or Ike's F-Smash? :)

I rest my case :chuckle:
You know what I find more satisfying than pulling off Ganon's Warlock Punch? Pulling off Ike's counter on Ganon's Warlock Punch. XD
 

Hoser

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Me and A2ZOMG battled today, and he beat me more times than I beat with in our Ike vs Ganon matches. He showed me I underestimated Ganon, but nonetheless I believe Ike is superior. Had it not been wifi, it would have been a totally different battle for the both of us.
 

A2ZOMG

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I did the best combo ever on this guy. Reverse U-air -> Murder Grope (Up-B). He hung on the edge too long and I spiked him off and Up-Bed him under the stage.

He's like seriously a better player than me though. I did horribly against his Ike with other characters that were better than Ganon. <<
 

hyperstation

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Me and A2ZOMG battled today, and he beat me more times than I beat with in our Ike vs Ganon matches. He showed me I underestimated Ganon, but nonetheless I believe Ike is superior. Had it not been wifi, it would have been a totally different battle for the both of us.
Typical. If it wasn't on wifi, you'd both be playing better. No johns.
 
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