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Match-up discussion #12: Lucario

~ Gheb ~

~ Gheb ~

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Yay, another day - abother match-up. This time we're doing Lucario.

I have lots of experience against this dude, since a good friend of mine mains him. Both - him and Wolf - are surprisingly similar: Overall good attributes but both have a rather gimpable recovery. Other than that, I think it's a very even match. Both are pretty much tied in almost every aspect: Speed, Priority, Range...

Wolfs advantage is, that he is a little better at landing kills - Lucario needs to have high % to deal maximum knockback but a fresh dsmash works very well against it.
Lucarios advantage is, that he is very hard to punish, so don't expect to land many fsmashes on him!

Imo a 50:50 match-up.

There is no ... real tactic against this guy. Just play your "standard" Wolf aka lots of spacing, trying to land a blaster here or there and keeping your dsmash fresh to kill him at the right moment...

Discuss!
 
Samuelson

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I love fighting against Wolf's because Lucario can combo like crazy on him. Wolf is one of the only characters where Uthrow can be used as a chain grab. A smart Lucario main will charge up an AS and keep it forever just to mess with the Wolf's head, it's really funny watch characters with reflectors using their reflector every 20 seconds to try and predict an attack. Wolf's shine stops a lot of our strings so i guess try and use that as much as possible when your are in the middle of a combo. Wolf's recovery is a lot easier to gimp then Lucario's IMO.
 
Tyrael64

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Force Palm is a fantastic chaingrab against Wolf, and we can Fair spam all day to gimp the recovery. Conversely, Lucario's harder to gimp than you might think.
 
Ishiey

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This can't be 50:50, lucario can 'combo' very well at low %s and his fsmash is near unbeatable when spaced properly with its IASA frames, both of which are VERY valuable. Double Team can also serve as an approach through blaster spam, but probably won't be seen too often. I'd go with 55:45 or 60:40 for lucario, it's nothing that will screw you over too badly but the cons outweigh the pros (killing... and that's about it...)

Also what everyone else said. But really, if it wasn't for the combo ability at low %s this would be almost perfectly even.
 
Browny

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wolf is definitely one of my harder matchups however i dont think its even. lucario has some nasty combos at low %'s and wolf has a weak off-stage game to mess with lucario recovery. I have some footage of some of my matches vs my brothers wolf.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdw0azxqlto

the 2nd match only.
 
Sesshomuronay

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djbrowny said:
wolf is definitely one of my harder matchups however i dont think its even. lucario has some nasty combos at low %'s and wolf has a weak off-stage game to mess with lucario recovery. I have some footage of some of my matches vs my brothers wolf.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdw0azxqlto

the 2nd match only.
Click to expand...
I dont want to sound mean but your brothers wolf needs a lot of work. He barely used B-air too.
 
Col. Stauffenberg

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On the subject of the Force Palm chaingrab: You can break out of Force Palm the same way you can break out of a normal grab. However, to realistically pull this off you need to be at a pretty low % AND to be pounding those buttons the instant you get hit with it... which you should be expecting to after the first one if you're at a CG-able %. The preferred MO for most Lucarios to get you into that FP in the first place is to mix it up in their jab combo, so be ready to spot dodge that.

Recovery wise, Lucario is going to have an easier time gimping Wolf than Wolf will have gimping Lucario. Fair and Aura Sphere can both put him in a bad spot, and he doesn't have much against Lucci except for an unreliable spike.

In Wolf's favor... his blaster and reflector beat out aura sphere spamming, and having an fsmash that outranges ours is an uncomfortable thing for Lucci. Between those two, he can control the ground pretty well. Stick to that, because in all honesty, you guys don't really want to be challenging him in the air.
 
~ Gheb ~

~ Gheb ~

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Djbrowny, that Wolf wasn't bad, no matter what the other guy said. He didn't use bair very often but he had decent süacing. The only thing he needs to improv is the DI of his aerials...

I just like to mention, that having better finishers than Luc means quite a lot. You not only get a stock lead but you also weaken his knockback. You shouldn't forget that
 
Col. Stauffenberg

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Dying first is definitely Lucario's biggest weakness, but Wolf is not a well-suited character to exploiting that. And I definitely wouldn't say he has better finishers by any means.
 
Browny

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:/

Wolfs dsmash is too good. while wolf may have less finishers (dsmash obviously #1, im thinking fair/usmash/utilt a distant 2nd?) dsmash is far more effective and better than any finishers lucario has (fsmash, dair, AS, uair, dsmash, DT probably all KO well enough)
 
The Real Inferno

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Its worth noting low percent aura spheres are out prioritized by most of Wolf's moves, so you shouldn't fear it when they have little damage at all. I prefer to poke at Lucario with Tilts and lasers before landing fresh Bairs and Dsmashes on him for the kill. Bair is incredibly handy in edge guarding Lucario's recovery as well. When Recovering against Lucario I do not suggest aiming for the ledge every time. Most good Lucarios will hog you with Extreme Speed. Aiming for a little bit above the ledge should allow you the chance to get on the ground while they go for the ledge hog then GTFO of there before they hop back up. It worth keeping in mind your attacks come out quicker than most of Lucario's, which allows you to more easily punish than he can.

Avoid Fsmashing unless you like being chaingrabbed. The only times you can Fsmash Lucario is if he either Trips right in front of you, or his recovers over the ledge (in which case you can tipper Fsmash him in the face since he deserves it for being stupid). Do not Perfect Shine an Aura Sphere. Don't ask me why, just don't do it. At lower percentages you're best off camping like a coward to avoid being chaingrabbed.

Overall Wolf vs. Lucario is a Hit and run match. Lucarios range and priority on his arials and tilts will keep you from staying right in the fray, but if you use your quick attacks to your advantage it's a winnable match, just a tough one.
 
Milln

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*stretches*

Force Palm Grab (Chain and for its KO Use)
Aura Sphere (Doesn't matter if you have a reflector, it's gonna hit you or bait you)
Gimping (Fair off the stage = death. ExtremeHog[Using ExtremeSpeed to hog the ledge instantly from haflway across the stage] is too easy to do against Wolf)
Fsmash (Fsmash)
Aerials (Aura > Claws + Feet for the most part. I think like.. your fair is better than ours or some weird exception)


*yawns and goes back to sleep*

Don't get knocked off the stage for any decent distance if you plan on keeping your stock. Invest into recovering above the stage if you have the ability.

Oh, and one more thing. Every time someone says Lucario is unable to kill before 50%, even if it's one of our own Luca mains, I want to smack them for being ignorant. Dair and Fsmash can both either kill outright or lead to gimps. Dying first is not a superbadomgIlosttheset situation with Lucario. If a Lucario main says it one more time.... >O
 
Ishiey

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Infi-tan, Wolf can be hogged very very easily out of upB, but sideB goes over the ledge in many instances when hogged, as Samuelson's video showed. Also, sideB has more distance than upB, so wolf will only use up B to recover when he is below the ledge by a good amount, in which case it's probably going to be more effective to interrupt sideBs trajectory with a high priority aerial than to hog.
 
ElPadrino

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We're getting too many opinions from Lucario lovers, and it's starting to lose objectivity.

With the exception of Dair, Wolf has a better Aerial game and better aerial mobility. This means that basically you just need to space yourself with Bair and you have control over the air (unless Lucario is coming from above, in wich case you should just get out of there).

A good Wolf player won't let a Lucario get to high %, he will save D-smash for the kill, and D-Smash kills at around 110% if tipped, even if DIed correctly.

Both of their projectiles are even, but Wolf has a reflector, so it gives him an advantage over the projectile game.

Double team is Crap, it has lots of ending lag that Wolf can easily punish.

The only big advantage Lucario has over Wolf is gimping his recovery, but Lucario's recovery can be gimped as well, harder though but it's still gimpable.

I believe the matchup is 50:50, not more ot less. In this matchup it all depends on the skill and mindgames of the player.
 
~ Gheb ~

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^ While I agree with the number, the content of your post is very questionable. That almost sounds as if Wolf had a 100:0 advantage...
 
ElPadrino

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No that's not what I mean at all, I just stated some of the advantages Wolf has, and I was contradicting some of what the Lucario players pointed.

Lucario still has a range advantage on the ground, his F-Smash wich is a great finisher has a lot of range and has IASA frames, he has better jumps and a better recovery than you, there's no way you can beat his when he's above you thanks to his amazing Dair, he has many more disjoints than you do, his projectile is chargable (can be used as a damage dealer, kill move and edgeguarding move, etc.)

If I thought Wolf had a 100:00 advantage I wouldn't have said 50:50 =P
 
Samuelson

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ElPadrino said:
With the exception of Dair, Wolf has a better Aerial game and better aerial mobility
Click to expand...
I am going to have to disagree with you. Wolf's aerial game is not nearly as good as Lucario's IMO. Wolf's airs are overall stronger but Lucario's have more range and disjointed hit boxes plus we can do like a billion fairs in one jump. Lucario's Bair, Dair, Nair and Uair can all kill at higher percents also. I don't see how anybody could possibly say that Wolf's aerial game is better then Lucario's.


ElPadrino said:
A good Wolf player won't let a Lucario get to high %, he will save D-smash for the kill, and D-Smash kills at around 110% if tipped, even if DIed correctly.
.
Click to expand...
Yeah and a good Lucario player wont let Wolf get close enough to kill him with Dsmash when he is at killing percent.
 
Milln

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Allow me to disrupt you.

ElPadrino said:
We're getting too many opinions from Lucario lovers, and it's starting to lose objectivity.

With the exception of Dair, Wolf has a better Aerial game and better aerial mobility. This means that basically you just need to space yourself with Bair and you have control over the air (unless Lucario is coming from above, in wich case you should just get out of there).
Click to expand...
Not quite sure what you're talking about. Pretty certain our uair demolishes all your dairs and bair outranges both your fair and bair as well as kills more reliably than yours. The only thing that you may outdo is our fair.

A good Wolf player won't let a Lucario get to high %, he will save D-smash for thekill, and D-Smash kills at around 110% if tipped, even if DIed correctly.
Click to expand...
This is so wrong. Don't be dumb. If a good Wolf player won't let a Luca get to high percentage, then obviously a good Lucario isn't going to let a Wolf kill him easily. OHSHI- WE'RE GOING IN CIRCLES. Besides, 100% is more than enough to dispatch Wolf with most of our killing options.

Both of their projectiles are even, but Wolf has a reflector, so it gives him an advantage over the projectile game.
Click to expand...
Ours KO's and does more damage. Yours is -maybe- faster on the spam. You're incorrect; Aura Sphere is better than Blaster.

Double team is Crap, it has lots of ending lag that Wolf can easily punish.
Click to expand...
So? No one uses Double Team.

The only big advantage Lucario has over Wolf is gimping his recovery, but Lucario's recovery can be gimped as well, harder though but it's still gimpable.
Click to expand...
That is not "the only big advantage".

I believe the matchup is 50:50, not more ot less. In this matchup it all depends on the skill and mindgames of the player.
Click to expand...
I haven't given a verdict and will not. Whatever you silly Wuffy mains come up with is yours.



Ishieymoro said:
Infi-tan, Wolf can be hogged very very easily out of upB, but sideB goes over the ledge in many instances when hogged, as Samuelson's video showed. Also, sideB has more distance than upB, so wolf will only use up B to recover when he is below the ledge by a good amount, in which case it's probably going to be more effective to interrupt sideBs trajectory with a high priority aerial than to hog.
Click to expand...
Please, call me Milln. <3 You're right, I wasn't thinking about that part of SideB. Don't you guys get more distance if you cancel it? However, while I admit it's no real punishment, if you land on stage with UpB while Lucario is hogging you, all he has to do is ledgdrop an aerial or something to hit you on your landing. It won't KILL, but it's still more percent.
Click to expand...
 
Col. Stauffenberg

Col. Stauffenberg

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ElPadrino said:
We're getting too many opinions from Lucario lovers, and it's starting to lose objectivity.
Click to expand...
Classy. I'm only here (And this probably goes for every Lucario in here as well) because Gheb came to the Lucario boards and asked for input. But if you want a discussion with nothing but "Wolf lovers," go ahead, I'm sure you'll get a much more realistic analysis that way. </sarcasm>

With the exception of Dair, Wolf has a better Aerial game
Click to expand...
Case in point...
 
T

Turbo Ether

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Samuelson said:
Yeah and a good Lucario player wont let Wolf get close enough to kill him with Dsmash when he is at killing percent.
Click to expand...
You're saying there's not a single Wolf player in the world that can land a killing Dsmash against a good Lucario? Lol, please prove this.
 
Timbers

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This thread is filled with a ton of wrong.

-Killing a Wolf with Lucario is difficult. All of Wolf's killers are quite quicker than Luc's, and Wolf has tons of options to disrupt Luc's flow and spacing. The best option you can really hope for is baiting a dsmash or fsmash and punishing with fsmash or something. Wolf's fsmash disrupts a lot of Luc's spacing, and his aerial DI makes it difficult to keep him at an ideal position.

-Wolf's air game is inferior to Lucario's. I mean, seriously? lol. The only thing Wolf has in the air worth noting is the bair and reflector. Nair is silly, fair has atrocious landing lag if not ac'd, dair is slow, and Luc dair>>>wolf uair.

-Wolf's ground game>>>>>>Lucario. Luc needs the air to win this match. Wolf's ground game does really well at pressuring Luc.

-Wolf is a better camper than Lucario. It's stupid to argue that. It's hard to say which character's projectile aids them more in this match though. Simply camping, it's Wolf.

-Wolf's reflector is iffy, and not as threatening as some others in this game WHEN used as a reflector. During the initial frames where Wolf has the invincibility, aurasphere just passes completely through him. OR can be inside the reflector and hit him during the loss of invincibility. That's an interesting thing to note.

-Wolfs reflector is gaygaygay. Luc's aerials aren't entirely speedy as far as cooldown lag, so the reflector gets him out of a lot of aerial pursuits.

-Recoveries. Wolf's offstage game is kinda lacking. Luc's fair does outprioritize Wolf's upB. Luc has a pretty decent gimp game with his fairs, so putting Wolf into a position of uB isn't entirely out of the question. However, Luc getting a Wolf to recover onstage isn't nearly as punishable as Wolf doing it to a Lucario. Luc can land like, what..5% if Wolf sideBs onto stage? Luc is dead at 140% to a fresh Wolf fair if Wolf gets him to ES onto stage. But yeah, Wolf putting Lucario in that situation is definitely a lot more rare than Lucario doing it to Wolf.

I still go with the majority that this is 50:50.
 
Milln

Milln

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Timbers said:
This thread is filled with a ton of wrong.

-Killing a Wolf with Lucario is difficult. All of Wolf's killers are quite quicker than Luc's, and Wolf has tons of options to disrupt Luc's flow and spacing. The best option you can really hope for is baiting a dsmash or fsmash and punishing with fsmash or something. Wolf's fsmash disrupts a lot of Luc's spacing, and his aerial DI makes it difficult to keep him at an ideal position.
Click to expand...
"No it isn't. O,o" and "No it doesn't" to every sentence in this paragraph except the first half of the second one. Lucario has a buttload more punishers than something slow like fsmash.[/quote]

-Wolf's air game is inferior to Lucario's. I mean, seriously? lol. The only thing Wolf has in the air worth noting is the bair and reflector. Nair is silly, fair has atrocious landing lag if not ac'd, dair is slow, and Luc dair>>>wolf uair.
Click to expand...
Acceptable.

-Wolf's ground game>>>>>>Lucario. Luc needs the air to win this match. Wolf's ground game does really well at pressuring Luc.
Click to expand...
Because Lucario's ground game is horrible, right? Timbuhz yew dum. I'll admit that Wolf has a better ground game here, but it's not that many greater than signs. T-T

-Wolf is a better camper than Lucario. It's stupid to argue that. It's hard to say which character's projectile aids them more in this match though. Simply camping, it's Wolf.
Click to expand...
"Wolf is better at camping, I can't explain why, but he is." - Timbuhz

-Wolf's reflector is iffy, and not as threatening as some others in this game WHEN used as a reflector. During the initial frames where Wolf has the invincibility, aurasphere just passes completely through him. OR can be inside the reflector and hit him during the loss of invincibility. That's an interesting thing to note.

-Wolfs reflector is gaygaygay. Luc's aerials aren't entirely speedy as far as cooldown lag, so the reflector gets him out of a lot of aerial pursuits.
Click to expand...
Aura sphere will never clear the Wolf. It will always hit inside of Wolf and devour his brain.

-Recoveries. Wolf's offstage game is kinda lacking. Luc's fair does outprioritize Wolf's upB. Luc has a pretty decent gimp game with his fairs, so putting Wolf into a position of uB isn't entirely out of the question. However, Luc getting a Wolf to recover onstage isn't nearly as punishable as Wolf doing it to a Lucario. Luc can land like, what..5% if Wolf sideBs onto stage? Luc is dead at 140% to a fresh Wolf fair if Wolf gets him to ES onto stage. But yeah, Wolf putting Lucario in that situation is definitely a lot more rare than Lucario doing it to Wolf.
Click to expand...
Ledgdrop to > Uair/Nair/Aura Sphere or Jumpfrom the ledge to Dair all prove you wrong.

Timbuhz <33333333333333333333333333333333333333
 
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