Tiny Details Make the Difference?

I could study M2K's Meta Videos, follow him across the country and basically obsess over him, and still not be as good as him. But why is this? We have a handful of very good GaW's on this board, and 90% of their posts are readable by us! So what gives? Why do they win so much more consistently than us? While playing Tf2 the other day I came to a realization.

TF2 is a competitive team shooter. There is a team right now, PANDEMIC, who is destroying everything that comes in their path. I got a chance to play with PANDEMIC.Dummy the other day, and I realized something late into the game. His ping was really, really high. The character he plays relies a lot on prediction and reading the opponent. With the ping he had, this was almost impossible, and he had to rely on other things. I was killing better than him, yet his score was astronomically higher than mine!

I then realized why he, why all pros are pro. There are small facets of their game that cannot be observed, small judgments that may not even register if you watch their videos thousands of times, forward, reverse, slo mo and under the influence.

So, I hope that we can all break our plateau that we may be at, or prepare to break one as we read this. There are small things that need to be discussed, as I noticed this board is stagnating. I'd rather be the best board, instead of the stagnant board, so I am starting this topic.

The first thing we should discuss, if everyone agrees, are empty shorthops. I was tinkering around with Meta Knight, and I noticed that they are excellent for spacing. I haven't been able to play since, so I can't really decide whether they are good or not. I would think they where, GaW being fairly mobile, and having GREAT smashes on landing... Not to mention the fact that RARing strikes fear in the opponent to the extent they could evacuate every time you jump. This would be an excellent time to capitalize! Even if you cannot get a hit on the opponent, his retreat is a small win in itself! Pushing people to the edge is an important asset in many characters games -> http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163063 <- and I think it could be good with GaW, especially since he can gimp fairly well, and is incredibly hard to gimp himself.

The board was dead guys, say something worth discussing please.

The small things make smashers smashers. It's really mental mixed in with techniquie so there is a lot of things the boards don't discuss that will make people pro.
Glad you started this.

Ok, time to eat.

Thanks for the response Omega, I'll be back in about an hour to discuss this stuff

=D

TF2 is awesome, did I contribute?

Finally.
An attempt to drop the gallon on this tired board.
Empty SH's are a must, G&W's already pretty predictable,
but going about SH gets inside your opponents head and opens up the doors for punishment.
For one they could flinch and shield by reaction; free grab. So yeah, that's just a basic, but its a start.

Mr. Escalator said:

TF2 is awesome, did I contribute?

Click to expand...

[GFG] Phloat baby, GFG won STA Bronze League, and our 6 v 6 team has already caused a fearquit. "We are in our pub right now, so we don't want to play.. sorry"

Anyways.

Empty SHs are that good for spacing eh? If they are a benefit I'll be sure to add them to my game, I always feel that spacing could get even tighter. Sorry for not really benefitting to this discussion much after I started it, I don't use empty SHs as much with my GaW as I do with my MK.. so I'll try to incorporate it into my game more... Thanks guys, after the next topic comes along (don't force it foos!) I can probably talk more.

Being pro takes A LOT of dedication and skill. Out of the vast majority of gamers maybe like 3% of that population is truly that good. And sometimes you're just born with it.

What makes Brawl nice though is the drastically reduced learning curve compared to Melee. Technical skill is no longer needed to be good at the game which really did separate the good from the bad. And before you say anything, yes I have played Melee; I know how to wavedash, l-cancel, JC grab, etc etc.

i think it's mostly a versatility thing. better opponents will stay just outside of bair range, waiting for lag so they can punish. but empty hop has hardly any lag, so you can land behind them into a smash or grab. if they retreat even further, you can use your second jump to keep up the pressure.

i tend to go over them and dair after an empty hop, though it usually gets punished :/ or i'll land into dsmash, cause it slides a good distance when you land one. pretty good against ppl who try to shieldgrab the bair a lot. but i notice pros will keep jumping, keeping in range for a bair, and when an opening comes they ff bair with great precision. fastfalling is, i think, crucial to prevent a whiff.

oh, and empty hopping with an airdodge is pretty useful if you want to land right next to them and attack.

Thats a lie. Have you seen Santis TL?

OmegaXF said:

Thats a lie. Have you seen Santis TL?

Click to expand...

Have you seen Dojo's MK?

I use empty shffs with quick dashes as sort of mindgames.. but never thought of them for spacing. I usually use sh turtle and DI away for spacing. But getting them use to the sh turtle and popping in an empty one is a good idea, ill have to try to use that in my gw

I suppose adding empty short hops to my game is a given huh? Well, they seem useful for tricking the opponent into thinking he has the upper hand .

Hey, what do you guys think about GaW using full hops with double jumps instead of just short hopping around, I liked the feel of it for a while. Reminded me of Wario, and Masashi in Melee.

the board is dead lol

welcome to the GW forum baby, noj predictions start to come true yet again.

_Phloat_ said:

Hey, what do you guys think about GaW using full hops with double jumps instead of just short hopping around, I liked the feel of it for a while. Reminded me of Wario, and Masashi in Melee.

Click to expand...

Writes like NoJ just for the hell of it.

well yeah your suppose to mix it up so throwing in full hops and double jumps are always good
probably better for spacing too

We need an Emblem Lord type person for this board. Whenever something is posted, it gets a short, general answer and then it dies. Look at the discussion EL provides!

Alright, Phloat.

So empty SH's?
I think a big part of this in a G&W's game would firstly be its 'fear-factor', right off the bat, your foes waiting for that typical RAR'd bair, they know its range, nonpunishable gayness, and its *****' d priority. A slight brake in the mindset, such as a faked bair approach can have them guessing, and guessing leaves them open for punishment...

Case and point, MK's whoring their nado.

In order for a player to take advantage of that on a competitive level, you need to look into conditioning your opponent. Throw out some bairs, maybe even turtle dance a bit, it doesn't take but a few seconds for your foe to catch on and think they know what you'll do next, most G&W mainers do this without knowing. The more control you show with bair, the more they think you'll rely on it.

Now, I think we should discuss ways to take advantage of their shrimpy counters to our aerials, this'll most likely focus more on empty SH's, and bair, and how they can rise punishable shyness/confusion against your foe/how to take advantage of them.

|Threats

• Snake: Cooked/Shield Dropped Grenades
• Falco/Wolf: Reflector
• Olimar: Upb
• Projectiles
• Invincible Frames (Marth, MK, DK, Wario, Etc)
• Super Armor
• Whorenado
• Long Disjointed Grabs

|Current Subjects

• Threats and How to Punish Them
• Mindgames
• How to be less predictable
• Empy SH's for spacing

G&W FOR BEST BOARD!

I unload Bacon at the weirdest possible moments. They get used to it, then you down smash them away.

You just don't throw the Bacon away like that!! You know how hard people worked for that XD

cutter said:

Have you seen Dojo's MK?

Click to expand...

So your going to tell me that it takes no technical skill to play Brawl. When both the people we've suggested use AT's?

OmegaXF said:

So your going to tell me that it takes no technical skill to play Brawl. When both the people we've suggested use AT's?

Click to expand...

Shuddup. Don't get into this. Sorry to pick on the last poster, but both sides of this argument have been worn out, and you are the last one trying to start something. Go somewhere else, this is about GaW, not about how "technical" a game may be.

Great response neb! I like how you mentioned the control of the turtle, and how it really conditions opponents. I think part of GaW's grab game is simply based on the fact that the opponent has to shield more than average.

What is next to discuss guys? I think we got into the details of ESHs enough.

post this in the back room first. This thread has A LOT of potential. Work some **** out there, and then post it back on here. The reasons threads die here is b/c ppl post random **** that doesnt make any sense.

_Phloat_ said:

Shuddup. Don't get into this. Sorry to pick on the last poster, but both sides of this argument have been worn out, and you are the last one trying to start something. Go somewhere else, this is about GaW, not about how "technical" a game may be.

Great response neb! I like how you mentioned the control of the turtle, and how it really conditions opponents. I think part of GaW's grab game is simply based on the fact that the opponent has to shield more than average.

What is next to discuss guys? I think we got into the details of ESHs enough.

Click to expand...

sorry for the double post, but I feel like I can contribute a lot to this as well as expand upon the discussion. I have to start off by saying Im not sure what you mean by empty short hop. Im gonna analyze one of my vids and you guys just elaborate on that.

Baiting a fair off of your first jump and then using your second jump to ff bair is so incredibly good and underused. Watch what I do at 1:50 to bait his fair and then punish right after.

Sh air dodging is something completely different, and something that I dont even try against good players. To me its a lot like falling in front of someone after a dair. Youre just asking to get grabbed or get dsmashed if its mk. An example of what not to do is what I do at 2:56 and 3:23. I know that this is not what you were talking ab out _float_, but I see similarities between the two. For me at least, it becomes almost a habit to run off the edge after you get a kill and try to b-up to the middle of the stage. Problem with that is exactly what happens there. SH air dodge is kinda the same principle. Look at 0:57. I know thats a poor example of what your suggesting to be implemented but its a rough idea I think as well as how it can be punished.

Im not by any means saying dont sh air dodge, but what I am trying to say is dont abuse it, and even more so use your first jump to bait a move and then use your second jump and ff bair.

chckn said:

sorry for the double post, but I feel like I can contribute a lot to this as well as expand upon the discussion. I have to start off by saying Im not sure what you mean by empty short hop. Im gonna analyze one of my vids and you guys just elaborate on that.

Baiting a fair off of your first jump and then using your second jump to ff bair is so incredibly good and underused. Watch what I do at 1:50 to bait his fair and then punish right after.

Sh air dodging is something completely different, and something that I dont even try against good players. To me its a lot like falling in front of someone after a dair. Youre just asking to get grabbed or get dsmashed if its mk. An example of what not to do is what I do at 2:56 and 3:23. I know that this is not what you were talking ab out _float_, but I see similarities between the two. For me at least, it becomes almost a habit to run off the edge after you get a kill and try to b-up to the middle of the stage. Problem with that is exactly what happens there. SH air dodge is kinda the same principle. Look at 0:57. I know thats a poor example of what your suggesting to be implemented but its a rough idea I think as well as how it can be punished.

Im not by any means saying dont sh air dodge, but what I am trying to say is dont abuse it, and even more so use your first jump to bait a move and then use your second jump and ff bair.

Click to expand...

An empty shorthop is simply a shorthop with no action in it. Not even an airdodge. It is good because you have the threat of all the aerials, without the lag unless you decide to attack.

Also, did you forget to post the video or am I blind?

AFTER THIS IS POSTED, PLEASE LET IT DIE. I AM GOING TO REMAKE THIS THREAD IN THE BACKROOM, AND POST SUMMARIES OF WHAT WE FIND.. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. THEN IT WILL BE OPEN FOR GENERAL DISCUSSION. ANYTHING AFTER THIS WILL BE REPORTED FOR SPAM

_Phloat_ said:

His ping was really, really high. The character he plays relies a lot on prediction and reading the opponent.

Click to expand...

Just out of curiousity, which character are you talking about?

*is a TF2 Player*

You have to bear in mind some players are just born better. Take HugS for example. HugS' reaction times are just quicker then some people are physically able, some people can never become as good as him because of this.