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Pit Frame Data

kupo15

kupo15

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In this game, speed is very important. Pit may be fast but he is not that fast especially when Metaknights roam and a lot of other characters are faster than Pit. This thread is made to show a rough estimate of each attacks start up and cool down lag. The object is to know which moves are good for instant retaliation and which ones aren't. All comments appreciated. Its about time someone attempted to make this thread and Im open to discussion on my wrong numbers.

All frame numbers are done in 1/4 speed in training mode.For start up lag, I clocked the time from the button pressed to Pit hitting Snake, multiplied by 60 divided by 4. For the post lag, I clocked from the sound of the last hitbox to a buffered shield. No contact made.

The actual duration of the entire move is NOT included yet
Red is Start up lag
Blue is post lag
Green is during the move
Yellow is total move frames

Ground moves

AAA(IASA)-4 frames/17 frames/16 frames/37 frames
Ftilt-9 frames/16 frames/25 frames
Dtilt(starting from crouch)- 4 frames/14 frames /18 frames
Utilt-2 frames/7 frames/12 frames/21 frames

Fsmash-4 frames/9 frames/17 frames/30 frames
Dsmash-4 frames/9 frames/12 frames/25 frames
Usmash- 4 frames/7 frames/17 frames/28 frames

Dash attack- 5 frames/20 frames/25 frames
Grab- 4 frames/14 frames/19 frames (total with missed grab)
Running grab- 8 frames/19 frames/26 frames(total with missed grab)

Charged Usmash- 4 frames
Charged Dsmash- 4 frames
Charged Fsmash- 4 frames


Order from fastest to slowest
Start up lag:
Utilt
AAA
Dtilt
Usmash/Dsmash
Fsmash
Grab
Running grab
Ftilt


Aerials

Nair-2 frames
Fair- 7 frames
Bair- 5 frames
Dair-7 frames
Uair- 5 frames
Glair- 4 frames

Order from fastest to slowest:
Start up lag:
Nair
Glair
Bair
Uair
Fair/Dair

So yea, almost all of Pits moves are fast but at higher levels of play, it usually comes down to the frame whether or not you will hit or be hit. So maybe one tactic is to lure them with a missed move and use the fastest start up move you have to start your string of hits.
 
kupo15

kupo15

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Sorry for the first one guys, this should be better

Gimpy: I didn't think the old one needed to be closed. I got instant feedback about how wrong my first attempt was and said I was going to fix it. I thought a simple edit would be better than a new thread. Also, this is the lag before the move not including the move so 400 nairs per second, of course not!
 
arm

arm

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Oh, thats how one finds frame rate data...

BTW, Im just curious, why Snake? Whats so special about Snake, that other characters just wont do? Or are you just pointing it out as a disclaimer?

And one more thing, you should look at the Wolf boards, they have some insane frame data for him, every thing from frames between jabs, to frames after attemping a grab.
 
kupo15

kupo15

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lol yea, but then ppl might be, why? This way there is no misunderstanding with my method and ppl can tell if they were wrong. But I think its right and the numbers are pretty close.
 
kupo15

kupo15

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The only one would be AR but is that really needed? Comparing to M2K's MK frame data, the only B move he did was the up b because it fits in well with his other moves. M2k did not include the tornado, drill, or the cape. If you feel that I should include AR, let me know and I will. But WoI and especially shield at least should not be documented. The shield has super armor which means your safe from frame 1.

Arrow and AR are for speculation but I'm not sure. Tbh, I dont even know why frame data is important. You subconsciously count the frames.
 
kupo15

kupo15

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arm said:
BTW, Im just curious, why Snake? Whats so special about Snake, that other characters just wont do? Or are you just pointing it out as a disclaimer?

And one more thing, you should look at the Wolf boards, they have some insane frame data for him, every thing from frames between jabs, to frames after attemping a grab.
Click to expand...
You mean MK? And this is just a disclaimer. I have realized that many character are faster than Pit than I thought.

Wow, wolf boards went a little over the top IMO. Whats the point of figuring out the frame data of the actual move? Once you connect with the move, knowing how many frames long the move is really not important. The important thing is that you connect with the move. Right?

I was thinking about cool down lag but still isnt the most important thing to know is how long you must wait before the hitbox comes out? I based this off of the MK's frame data written by mew2king.... if he chose not to be elaborate, then there must be a valid reason.

Thoughts?
 
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FzeroX

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kupo15 said:
Wow, wolf boards went a little over the top IMO. Whats the point of figuring out the frame data of the actual move? Once you connect with the move, knowing how many frames long the move is really not important. The important thing is that you connect with the move. Right?
Click to expand...
Kupo, I know you said you never played melee competitively, and this right here exemplifies that fact. Frame data is everything.

Quick example*: lucario fsmashes toward you, it comes out on frame 22, and the hitbox stays out till frame 30. well if you didnt know this you could very well run into this move, also you could be using this time to set up for a punishment, if you didnt know this then you could miss your opportunity to punish becasue cool down lag.
 
kupo15

kupo15

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Yes I wasnt in the competitive scene for melee but I am nonetheless competitive now and have been for the past several months.

I understand where you are coming from but Lucario seems to be the exception. Pit is very straight forward as in its very clear when his hitboxes are gone (when you dont hear a sound) and experience is the best learning tool for frame data especially with Pit being as straight forward as he is. However, the only move that might be good for frame data during the move is the Bair s and Glair since those are the only moves that hang out there similar to Lucario.

I will do the Bair and Glair frame data now that you mention it but do you think that frame data for the other moves during the whole move is necessary when it is so cut and dry? Can you also explain the missed opportunity for punishment in ref with cool down lag?

Dont mistake me for being lazy (not saying you are) I am just curious and dont mind doing it if you truly think its helpful. I wonder what the reason behind Mew2kings frame data for being so primitive compared to wolfs?
 
CorruptFate

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I think your data might be off again Brawl runs at 60 fps and a charged smash takes one second so all of your charged smashes should say 60 fps not 6,6, and 7.
 
kupo15

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I did not include the charging. Its from the time you release the button on the charge to the hit box.
 
CorruptFate

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Ah then my bad I should have read the OP a bit clearer, then I have no idea if your numbers are right or not =p.
 
arm

arm

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Getting frame data for all of Pits moves is neccesary. Simply because mew2king decided not to be as elaborate, doesnt mean we shouldnt. Im very, very interested to learn every aspect of Pit. Including cooldown, because if we miss an attack, we should know how long we have until we can move again.
 
Emblem Lord

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Frame data is everything.

Frame data shows what is safe and what is not, what you can pressure with, punish with, moves that will make up the backbone of your strats. They can show that certain moves shouldn't be relied on while others may be worth looking into.

Frame data is everything. Repeated for emphasis. You really need to see if he has an IASA frames on his ground moves.

Side note: F-tilts data is ugly.
 
K

kown

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Emblem Lord said:
Frame data is everything.

Frame data shows what is safe and what is not, what you can pressure with, punish with, moves that will make up the backbone of your strats. They can show that certain moves shouldn't be relied on while others may be worth looking into.

Frame data is everything. Repeated for emphasis. You really need to see if he has an IASA frames on his ground moves.

Side note: F-tilts data is ugly.
Click to expand...
IASA means?
 
kupo15

kupo15

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Emblem Lord said:
Frame data is everything.

Frame data shows what is safe and what is not, what you can pressure with, punish with, moves that will make up the backbone of your strats. They can show that certain moves shouldn't be relied on while others may be worth looking into.

Frame data is everything. Repeated for emphasis. You really need to see if he has an IASA frames on his ground moves.

Side note: F-tilts data is ugly.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your insight. So your saying that frame data is for the reasons you described and not to memorize and repeat as you play? Makes a lot of sense. Never thought about it like that. That makes it sound really useful. I hope he has IASA frames.

Yea, ftilt is ugly but a great move to mix things up especially at the ledge when they are recovering.

**First update
 
kupo15

kupo15

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kown: Best example is Marths Dtilt in melee. The reason he can poke so fast was because of IASA. Instead of waiting for the move to finish before doing another one, Marth could do another at any point when he moves his sword back.

Choknater: lol I think I like immediate Utilt (0 frames) better too. Oh boy, Im trying to forget that thread and wish I never posted it :\ Or it can be view as humor to the pits because he needed it :)
 
K

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CorruptFate said:
Ah then my bad I should have read the OP a bit clearer, then I have no idea if your numbers are right or not =p.
Click to expand...
Whether the numbers are "right" or not, per say, the relative data is just as important and should be accurate since i assume kupo did all the testing himself, and he had a set technique that was consistent. (meaning even if the exact frames arent correct, the data could still be accurately used to compare attacks' lag relative to one another). just thought id point this out :-)

thanks for the data, kupo!
 
kupo15

kupo15

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Phaigne said:
Ah, I love necro-posting.
Why did this die anyway? I'm still looking for complete frame data for Pit's aerials so I can learn which one to recover with.
Click to expand...
No clue. I also don't know how to test the ending lag at all. Buffered jumping?

Kyuubi9t said:
Whether the numbers are "right" or not, per say, the relative data is just as important and should be accurate since i assume kupo did all the testing himself, and he had a set technique that was consistent. (meaning even if the exact frames arent correct, the data could still be accurately used to compare attacks' lag relative to one another). just thought id point this out :-)

thanks for the data, kupo!
Click to expand...
Im pretty sure they are very close. You nailed it with the relative thing. That is what my first frame data thread was about even though the numbers were way off. The accuracy was suppose to come later. That thread went by how it feels to the player over accuracy of frames, but no one got it and it was closed and mocked...-_-
 
Phaigne

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Yeah, they topic has a horrible rep. But I agree, I only care about which attack is faster or fastest, which is distinguishable by relative speeds.

Seriously though, does anyone know what attack of Pit's should be used when recovering?
 
kupo15

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if you land at anytime when the hitboxes are out yes, but after the last hitbox, you get none. But this part of the move that is ok to cancel is quite noticeable i think. Uair I believe has less ending lag
 
Tenki

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kupo15 said:
All frame numbers are done in 1/4 speed in training mode.For start up lag, I clocked the time from the button pressed to Pit hitting Snake, multiplied by 60 divided by 4. For the post lag, I clocked from the sound of the last hitbox to a buffered shield. No contact made.

The actual duration of the entire move is NOT included yet
Red is Start up lag
Blue is post lag
Green is during the move
Yellow is total move frames

Ground moves

AAA(IASA)-6 frames/28 frames/27 frames/61 frames
Ftilt-15 frames/27 frames/42 frames
Dtilt(starting from crouch)- 7 frames/23 frames /30 frames
Utilt-3 frames/12 frames/20 frames/35 frames

Fsmash-7 frames/15 frames/29 frames/51 frames
Dsmash-6 frames/15 frames/20 frames/41 frames
Usmash- 6 frames/11 frames/29 frames/46 frames

Dash attack- 9 frames/33 frames/42 frames
Grab- 7 frames/23 frames/30 frames (total with missed grab)
Running grab- 13 frames/30 frames/43 frames(total with missed grab)

Charged Usmash- 6 frames
Charged Dsmash- 6 frames
Charged Fsmash- 7 frames


Order from fastest to slowest
Start up lag:
Utilt
AAA
Dtilt
Usmash/Dsmash
Fsmash
Grab
Running grab
Ftilt


Aerials

Nair-3 frames
Fair- 12 frames
Bair- 9 frames
Dair-12 frames
Uair- 9 frames
Glair- 6 frames

Order from fastest to slowest:
Start up lag:
Nair
Glair
Bair
Uair
Fair/Dair

So yea, almost all of Pits moves are fast but at higher levels of play, it usually comes down to the frame whether or not you will hit or be hit. So maybe one tactic is to lure them with a missed move and use the fastest start up move you have to start your string of hits.
Click to expand...
Hey, try multiplying those frame numbers by 3/5. It should match up more closely with the true frame data. I've concluded from frame data taken by people who took data at 1/4 time and comparing it with frame data taken by people who took the same data in 1/1 time that to get rid of excess frames, just multiply it by 3/5. I'm not sure whether frames should be rounded up or down though :/
 
kupo15

kupo15

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Ill get to it sometime. Sorry Im really busy now. The opening jab should be there. I think the jab is the fastest possible jab which is why I put IASA.

Tenki: Really? Ok ill do that
 
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