Match-up discussion #14: Pikachu

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 25, 2008

Time to do Pikachu...

He's light and thus easy to finish with a Dsmash, he also lacks range on many moves and speedwise Wolfs up to par. Pika does however have great finishers + Edgeguarding so landing a KO is a non issue here. He also does have a CG that works to ~40% so watch out for that.

The best way to win against him is to outspace him in the air with bair and on the ground with ftilt. Other than that Pika, doesn't require you to do anything but your standard tactics: lots of spacing, avoiding lags (Pika can punish quite good...) and punish with fsmash when needed. You should also try to land Shine counters, as usual. All that works pretty well

I say it's even though. Pikachus speed and power can be frustrating to fight against so don't let him overhelm you...

Discuss!

Ishiey · Sep 25, 2008

Probably even. His projectiles can be worked around because of reflector, which makes things a whole lot easier. Actually, this might even be a small advantage for wolf, just because of how good the reflector works against pikachu. Watch out for gimping though, pika is ridiculously good at messing with people offstage. There's a QAC lock, so watch out for it, but it's very situational. Standard procedure + shine is all this match requires, as long as it's used wisely.

Pika is still really **** annoying though.

K 2 · Sep 25, 2008

Ah pikachu. As a pikachu player, one of my pains against wolf is that I cannot crouch under his lasers -.-
Wolf can reflect pika's tjolt and thunder (a major kill move). Whenever you are above a pika, ALWAYS airdodge, use your reflector, or DI so that you are no longer above pika, because thunder is insanely powerful. I get 15-20% of my kills from thunder, because my friends forget to airdodge or something like that when they are above me. Pikachu has no shortage of kill moves and his has decent combo potential and with a CG on wolf. Watch out for QAC (quick attack cancel), which can go into a nair (kills at 130-140%) or thunder.
Pikachu is amazing at edgeguarding, so watch out for that. One of my edgeguarding tricks is to ledgedrop into a thunder, making it impossible to return to the stage or grab the ledge, which screws over people with bad recoveries (wolf). Maybe shine stall until the thunder passes? I don't use wolf much so I don't know if he can shine stall like fox. I wouldn't suggest trying to go offstage to edgeguard pika, b/c you will end up getting killed. I'm pretty sure most of wolf's moves outrange pika's, so use that to your advantage. Spacing is crucial in this match-up. One of my most frustrating match-up is against characters with long range/disjointed hitboxes.

That's all I can think of for now, I might come back later and add some stuff.

Sesshomuronay · Sep 25, 2008

In my opinion this is in wolfs favor at 60/40 or 55/45. Wolf has a lot of attacks that outrange pikachus and his blaster is just better than pikachus b move. Pikachu cant really use his thunder to kill wolf because wolf can just reflect it. Plus wolf kills pikachu a lot easier than pikachu kills wolf.

JCav · Sep 25, 2008

the best pika ive played is anther and he 2 stocked me but hes anther.

but id give wolf the nod in this one. is been mentioned, more range, better killing

Kitamerby · Sep 25, 2008

Wolf's favor? Doesn't Pikachu have a 0-death Chaingrab on Wolf, I thought?

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Sep 25, 2008

JimboCav09 said:
the best pika ive played is anther and he 2 stocked me but hes anther.

but id give wolf the nod in this one. is been mentioned, more range, better killing

No Duh It's Anther! He's like the best Pika!

JCav · Sep 25, 2008

ike is solid said:
No Duh It's Anther! He's like the best Pika!

yeah hes hard to play when hes just QACing all over the stage...

Kitamerby said:
Wolf's favor? Doesn't Pikachu have a 0-death Chaingrab on Wolf, I thought?

and no, fox maybe?

K 2 · Sep 25, 2008

Pika doesn't have a 0 to death combo, but chain grab + smash/aerial at the end deals a heafty 50-60% and it could set up for edgeguarding, which means wolf dies.

M15t3R E · Sep 25, 2008

If given the chance, an experienced Pikachu will combo Wolf fairly well. The chaingrab is to be feared too.
When I play Wolfs, I use my t-jolt very sparingly- usually when I'm sure it will hit due to my opponent Wolf's landing lag.
Delving in deeper, spacing appears to be your best friend against a Pikachu. If a Pikachu player attempts to QAC you to oblivion, use fairs, bairs, or abuse your laser gun. You may force Pikachu to try something else if done right.

When I play a Wolf, I find it easy to fight in close combat. However, approaching is difficult due to the lasers. Lasers and spacing via aerials are your keys to victory.

Stealth Raptor · Sep 26, 2008

really combos and cgs from pika devastate wolf, and with proper spacing and defensive measures i really have to think it is something more like 55/45 - 60/40 in pikas favor. online turns this more in pikas direction though. here is the thread we already have on you guys, though it is a little bit older. you can sorta use this for you guys, also help to update ours with any info you may have :D http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182000

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 26, 2008

This certainly isn't a 60:40 advantage. Neither for Wolf nor for Pika. It is somewhere between 55:45 and 45:55

Anther · Sep 26, 2008

Hmm... it's almost like there's a number between those two too.. ;P

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 26, 2008

So the big guy honorsus with his presence! lol
So you're sayin' it's 50:50?

tyler___ · Sep 26, 2008

Yessir I'd say 50:50.

Wolf can not shine stall. Just throwin' that in there.

Ussi · Mar 16, 2009

I'm not sure if I should say it here or somewhere else.. but..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v8Myoltijo starts at 3:00.

Stealth Raptor · Mar 16, 2009

UBER NECRO BUMP OF DEATH! but yeah its inescapable even with reflector.

Ussi · Mar 17, 2009

are the wolf boards dead? Or are they unfazed about a CG to 110% o_o?

Ishiey · Mar 17, 2009

Wolf is super cool, he has a blaster and doesn't afraid of anything.

... Yeah I'd go with the boards dying out, everyone gave up on this place it seems

MrEh · Mar 18, 2009

Thread hijack time! (I didn't see a thread for posting matchups, so....)

Bowser boards are discussing Wolf

Be nice. It's Bowser after all. ^^

tekkie · Mar 18, 2009

Who wants to explain just how the reflector works against Thunder? I tried it like five times against a Pikachu the other day and it just didn't happen for some reason. Air? Ground? Before it happens? Right when it happens? Off to the side?

Stealth Raptor · Mar 18, 2009

hold down and b, and let the thunder go through you?

tekkie · Mar 18, 2009

Stealth Raptor said:
hold down and b, and let the thunder go through you?

That's what I thought each time before I got zapped.

I don't even know what's what anymore. :dizzy:

Stealth Raptor · Mar 18, 2009

O.o do you have vids of this? WAIT you cannot reflect the explosion that is created when it hits pika. you can only reflect the bolt. perhaps that will answer your question.

tekkie · Mar 18, 2009

Stealth Raptor said:
O.o do you have vids of this? WAIT you cannot reflect the explosion that is created when it hits pika. you can only reflect the bolt. perhaps that will answer your question.

I dunno. I'll have to try it again.

Semifer · Mar 19, 2009

With that new horrible CG (Is it a zero to death if you finish with Usmash to Thunder, or is it escapeable?) I think the MU is about 65:35 in Pikas favor. It's very difficult for Pika to get a grab, but one time in a match it will happen if your oppenent is good and then Pika has a huge advantage.

Ussi · Mar 19, 2009

usmash/tilt > thunder is a true combo dependent on player DI and %. If you put A LOT of DI left/right from usmash, it'll make it very difficult for Pikachu to use thunder. Tilt is harder to DI both because its fast and isn't as strong as usmash, but since its not as strong, it won't be as effective until higher %'s.

testing on cap % and how many ways Pikachu can CG Wolf are still being tested. There are two ways to CG wolf, one is really dependent on space but it refreshes dthrow completely.

If Wolf manages to avoid thunder, Pikachu will just refresh his dthrow that way.

IMO we shouldn't decide a number yet. Until further testing is done and after some real battle experience with it. You guys say Wolf is good at avoiding grabs, well we say Pikachu is good at getting grabs so.. Wolfs aren't that uncommon right? There should be some wolf player near a pikachu player.

~ Gheb ~ · Mar 19, 2009

Ussi said:
Wolfs aren't that uncommon right?

Yes, they are. If Wolf wasn't so underplayed he wouldn't be in low-mid tier.

There should be some wolf player near a pikachu player.

Omniswell beat Anther this weekend...or so I heard.

Ussi · Mar 19, 2009

Doesn't mean he used Wolf ;o He used MK, IC, and Wolf so says the ranking thread. (But who does know besides the people who played... waiting for vids though)

choice_brawler · Mar 19, 2009

does the cg work at all % or does it need to be started at a certain % like others? i feel like even with the cg though, the match up wont be that bad. Wolf isnt like fox that has terribad approaches and depends on a punishing game almost entirely.

Ussi · Mar 19, 2009

the best way to CG wolf is

F-throw x3 > Pummel x1 >D-throw x 14 + regrab = 115%

which starts at 30% (the dthrows)

but.. at 0% this works:

D-throw x3 > Fthrow x1 > D-throw x14 + regrab = 112%

But this will even work at 40% with straight dthrows as well.. Wolf got the worse situation.

Sirus109 · Mar 20, 2009

to reflect thunder...use the reflector at what point??

i never seem to get it either, also the d-smash is it possible to DI out of it...i try to put cant get out of it??

Stealth Raptor · Mar 20, 2009

you can reflect the bolt. it will not change anything visible about it other then that it will hit the pika. also SDI up to get out of dsmash.

BIGM1994 · Mar 20, 2009

my wolf is like 60-40 over pika,just space out.i actually think its 50-50 though bec wolf is easy to hit wit da thunder.

Stealth Raptor · Mar 21, 2009

its easily pikahcu advantadge, good use of sheilding and movement make it very hard to kill pika. it was probably 55-45 pika before the cg, and the cg just made it worse for yall.

Ussi · Mar 21, 2009

if you think its 50-50 now when you can possible be starting your stock at 110%?

castorpollux · Mar 21, 2009

we'll let time tell whether or not it drastically changes the match up. Pikachu doesn't exactly have the longest grab range

Ussi · Mar 21, 2009

Pikachu is one of those mobile grabbers. He's efficient at it at getting in your face and grabbing. (Think MK but a tiny tiny bit slower and needs to be actually precise with grabbing you)

But lets leave it to time.

Turbo Ether · Mar 21, 2009

castorpollux said:
we'll let time tell whether or not it drastically changes the match up. Pikachu doesn't exactly have the longest grab range

And Wolf isn't exactly the easiest character to grab in the first place. This is why Wario is still great, despite being brutally ***** by grab releases, and why Wolf can still beat Falcos and DDDs.

castorpollux · Mar 21, 2009

good point. Wario's grab release shenanigans are pretty homo (imo, worse than pikachu's chaingrab), but he's still amazing

Match-up discussion #14: Pikachu

Life is just a party

Mother Wolf

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Legend

Life is just a party

Smash Champion

Life is just a party

Smash Cadet

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Mother Wolf

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Legend

Smash Master

Smash Legend

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Legend

Life is just a party

Smash Legend

Smash Journeyman

Smash Legend

Smash Apprentice

Smash Legend

Smash Champion

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Smash Champion

Smash Legend

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Information

Network