Match-up discussion #15: Ice Climbers

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 26, 2008

This time we're doing the ICs...

This has to be the most ******** match-up in the history of brawl. Get grabbed and you're dead. Seperate them and they are dead. You can virtually run away from them the entire battle, as long as they don't have a lead. BE PATIENT!!! Don't rush on them or you're dead. Be careful, wait for a mistake and smash them apart. Fsmash works wonders here, since Nanas CPU is stupid and often fails to shield, when they aren't together.

I don't know what else to say here, since ICs depend a lot on player skill...I'd like to hear your poins though...

Discuss

Ishiey · Sep 26, 2008

I hate these guys. Getting grabbed against a good IC means you're already dead, and there's always ice block lock... Whenever they are recovering, do whatever you can to hit only one of them out of the upB, and then edgeguard, they are (obviously) easier to handle seperately than apart. From what I hear, most people go for Nana when they're seperated, but just do whatever suits the situation better. I remember Omniswell saying that its all about blasterspam, fair, and running away, until you can kill them. Sounds like it will work, but seriously, DO NOT GET GRABBED. I don't know about numbers, but definitely work on fighting them seperately.

JCav · Sep 26, 2008

i really hate this matchup simply because you play someone good and all they want to do is grab and i run out of patience, get grabbed, and die. i give ics the advantage here

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 27, 2008

No numbers? Guess I'll have to invite some IC players...

DemonicTrilogy · Sep 27, 2008

Ishieymoro said:
I hate these guys. Getting grabbed against a good IC means you're already dead, and there's always ice block lock... Whenever they are recovering, do whatever you can to hit only one of them out of the upB, and then edgeguard, they are (obviously) easier to handle seperately than apart. From what I hear, most people go for Nana when they're seperated, but just do whatever suits the situation better. I remember Omniswell saying that its all about blasterspam, fair, and running away, until you can kill them. Sounds like it will work, but seriously, DO NOT GET GRABBED. I don't know about numbers, but definitely work on fighting them seperately.

WOW... Ice Climbers don't always think about grabbing... That's Olimar for you...

Ice Climbers have over 4 good approaches against a Wolf even if that Wolf is using laser and all that other stuff.... One ice block blocks the laser and the other one punishes. If Wolf retreats to the reflector, the Ice Climbers can use that to approach without worry of they're ice blocks reflecting back since they have two so if one gets reflected, the other will cancel the first one.

They can desync so that can also punish Wolf if he uses a move that is relatively good to punish (this includes F-smash) and makes them even better at dodging laser spam (one ice blocks while other goes in for kill/ grab). They can also do desync blizzards or squall hammers while the other comes in with a F-smash...

Ice Climbers don't have to rely on Nana to live and deal out punishment. Verse a SoPo and see for yourself.

I would say match up is 60:40 because Wolf doesn't have good defenses against them desyced in or out of grab.

Gheb_01 said:
No numbers? Guess I'll have to invite some IC players...

Thanks for this invite. I hate it when people assume that all Ice Climbers think about is grabbing.

Ishiey · Sep 27, 2008

@ Demonic: Lol I never said that they only try to grab. I'm just saying against a good one, if you do get grabbed, you should just go cry in a corner for a little while because you're screwed. I know about their approaching options and the ice block > laser stuff, don't worry. And I'm not doubting that a SoPo could win, but obviously against a good IC, two is better than one, that's all. On the approaching note, can't blizzard be reflected? I vaguely recall doing that once, but I'm not sure. Reflector against ice blocks is just asking to get smacked around, it's just plain stupid.

Sesshomuronay · Sep 27, 2008

In my opinion its probably 55/45 in the ice climbers favor. They got their cheap grabs of doom but wolf has a lot of good things against them for spacing.

lain · Sep 28, 2008

Make a mistake and your dead. Just like any other character. Any good IC player just waits around playing defensively for it. You fsmash? Shield the whole thing and grab. If I shielded or spotdodged any of several of wolf's moves, I just got a grab. Hell, I could desync a blizzard out of my shield or just at any point I want. Almost a guaranteed grab if you're caught in it.

Also, it's crazy safe to just do dthrow chaingrabs on wolf because even if you miss, you can normally dthrow chaingrab wolf to like.. 80%. So yeah have fun.

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 28, 2008

I'd also say 55:45 for the ICs. Even if Wolf can't reflect/blaster the Ice Blocks, they are still easy to avoid. The main problem is the fact, that Wolf has to approach but ICs downB works well against all of Wolfs approaches

tyler___ · Sep 29, 2008

I don't fight many Ice Climbers so I can't help much with this. All I know is separate them of course, and I personally go for the nana, cause that thing dies ridiculously easy and kinda screws their dps. Reflecting anything is pretty pointless the way I see it. Getting shieldgrabbed will screw you up, and the blaster won't do anything against the little ice things (neutral B). I can't really think of a single positive thing Wolf has on the Ice Climbers that won't screw himself.

Most definitely an advantage for the Ice Climbers.

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 29, 2008

tyler___ said:
I can't really think of a single positive thing Wolf has on the Ice Climbers that won't screw himself.

lol

think a bit harder!

Hylian · Sep 29, 2008

I would say 60-40 in Wolfs favor.

Wolf is really hard for IC's

.

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 29, 2008

Could you explain that, Hylian? Most Wolfs players believe, that Wolf has the disadvantage...

DemonicTrilogy · Sep 29, 2008

Ishieymoro said:
@ Demonic: Lol I never said that they only try to grab. I'm just saying against a good one, if you do get grabbed, you should just go cry in a corner for a little while because you're screwed. I know about their approaching options and the ice block > laser stuff, don't worry. And I'm not doubting that a SoPo could win, but obviously against a good IC, two is better than one, that's all. On the approaching note, can't blizzard be reflected? I vaguely recall doing that once, but I'm not sure. Reflector against ice blocks is just asking to get smacked around, it's just plain stupid.

Ice Climbers use desync Squall hammers as a secondary approach if Wolf is going to reflect.

Sesshomuronay · Sep 29, 2008

It probably is in wolfs favor. He has more spacing options then a lot of people and can own ice climbers in almost every way except for the chaingrab.

JCav · Sep 29, 2008

yeah i would have to say this is definitely ics favor. popo alone can cg wolf to around 40

DMG · Sep 29, 2008

60 : 40 for IC's. If Nana gets separated when Wolf is at lower %'s, U can just solo CG him until she can aid Popo. Wolf's not a hard character to get the CG timing down on, and he has a hard time recovering successfully after CG to spike as well. Most of Wolf's attacks can be punished really bad if IC's shield, and the only thing really stopping IC's from ****** wolf are the spacing tools like Bairs that save him.

xX'Mitsurugi'Xx · Sep 29, 2008

Hylian said:
I would say 60-40 in Wolfs favor.

Wolf is really hard for IC's .

Lol, good one, Ic's trump wolf at basicly every aspect of attack, as mentioned earlier, there is the Ice block issue, desync and destroy, then the chain grabs....... most definitely the chain grabs.... on a skilled lvl, Ic's would be the better match up, a 60-40 like you said, just in reverse order of favor, of course certain stages can put wolf at an advantage, also to the other wolf mainers, saying that wolf ***** SoPo isn't exactly sound either, if he's on the stage, he's a threat, lest you guys forget the solo chain grab Popo has on wolf (as well as others) at low %'s). As far as recovery, Popo by himself is as good as dead, After he's gone you got the chain's and chain spike's to deal with once more, a lose/lose match up, but thats just the statistics, any match up can be over come with enough skill, which why I always say, "Once you hit a certain lvl of skill, tiers and common knowledge become unreliable."

tyler___ · Sep 29, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
lol

think a bit harder!

I tried

Bairs can get shield - chaingrabbed, and the blaster is thwarted completely by the neutral B.

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 30, 2008

A well spaced bair, including DI, cannot be Shieldgrabbed by the Iceys

ArcPoint · Sep 30, 2008

Yup, just don't Fsmash, that gets predictable.

JusDBerube · Sep 30, 2008

My friend almost mains Wolf and I main IC's. Now we aren't the best players out there, but we are decent. I'd say this match up is clearly in favor of the Ice Climbers.

When we first started playing Brawl, Wolf would **** my IC's. Then we both got better and honestly, my friend feels as if Wolf has no chance.

Ice Climbers have a lot of good things to stop Wolf. First, as already mentioned, is the Ice Block (Neutral B). This ***** Wolf's Blaster. I personally feel that Wolf is used most effectively, against me anyway, when he has the blaster spam option. This really negates that.

Second is the chain grab. I find chain grabbing Wolf to be fairly easy. I can chain grab to a ledge and spike forcing wolf to use his terrible recovery. I can chain grab just for damage and up smash kill, etc. This is worse for one reason.

Wolf is a character a SOLO Ice Climber can chain grab to around 40% ish. Then he can follow up with a forward smash. I have done this to my friend many times and it pisses him off in ways I can't imagine.

I also find it pretty easy to shield grab Wolf's forward smash. It takes practice but after you get the timing down a bit it's not so bad. There are also some strategies I'd like to play with involving this though.

I find Blizzard (Down B) effective against Wolf as well. This can stop forward smashes, and several other approach options. If you're facing a wolf who is Up B happy and likes to approach with that, it's easily stoped with Blizzard, not to mention not too hard to follow up with a grab if they are too high up.

Squall Hammer (Over B) is another approach that can be used to mix things up further, and is still OK against Wolf. People who play IC's enough will understand how to better take advantage of this move against many chars.

Overall I think if the Ice Climber player is still new, it's probably about even or unfair for the IC player. If the IC player is somewhat decent at chain grabbing and using the rest of the IC moveset, yes there is more than grabs, than Wolf isn't that much of a challenge.

But hey maybe I'm wrong. Just my thoughts. Would love to hear everyone else.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 1, 2008

*Still waiting for Hylians arguments...*

Sylvan · Oct 1, 2008

I believe it's not in IC favour. I played a lot of good IC in a recent tourney, as well as playing over 200 games against a IC main (7th best in the region, although he no longer plays IC)

There are a lot of things to note. Wolf's reflector when used right is lethal to all IC. It breaks De-synchs and can stop grabs. IC don't have a projectile defence, their icicles are much too slow to be used effectively, and the can be reflected. Wolf just needs to short hop and turn on the reflector, the first icicle will keep going and the second will be deflected. They won't cancel.

IC are light-ish. A well placed (or rough) dsmash will KO them at around 80% (or set up a KO) While IC themselves have a very tough time landing the finishing blow. They have a large lack of kill moves.

Their grab is good, but they can also be grabbed by wolf. If wolf grabs into a down throw, he can catch nana/popo and then with the attack from the throw will hurt the other IC.

Wolf can also take advantage of IC short reach, and his air game is superior. Those are both big pluses.

Unless your fighting a VERY good IC, it's not a match-up in their favour. And considering that if they were that good, these match ups aren't supposed to incorporate personal skill, rather character bases.

Their chain grabs are good, but are not easy to execute, and can be easily read. IC cannot run from wolf perpetually, as he has the advantage at a range and at arms length. At point blank IC have the advantage, but its very easy to avoid that situation.

Of course, this is based on a Wolf who does more than just fsmash shields all day long. Because there are a lot of ways to stop IC grabbing you, as far as that goes, I would say Wolf has a decent anti-ice climber armoury.

I would say between 55:45 or 60:40. Wolf's favour.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 1, 2008

Great, now we have diferent ratings all over the map...

xX'Mitsurugi'Xx · Oct 1, 2008

Sylvan said:
I believe it's not in IC favour. I played a lot of good IC in a recent tourney, as well as playing over 200 games against a IC main (7th best in the region, although he no longer plays IC)

There are a lot of things to note. Wolf's reflector when used right is lethal to all IC. It breaks De-synchs and can stop grabs. IC don't have a projectile defence, their icicles are much too slow to be used effectively, and the can be reflected. Wolf just needs to short hop and turn on the reflector, the first icicle will keep going and the second will be deflected. They won't cancel.

IC are light-ish. A well placed (or rough) dsmash will KO them at around 80% (or set up a KO) While IC themselves have a very tough time landing the finishing blow. They have a large lack of kill moves.

Their grab is good, but they can also be grabbed by wolf. If wolf grabs into a down throw, he can catch nana/popo and then with the attack from the throw will hurt the other IC.

Wolf can also take advantage of IC short reach, and his air game is superior. Those are both big pluses.

Unless your fighting a VERY good IC, it's not a match-up in their favour. And considering that if they were that good, these match ups aren't supposed to incorporate personal skill, rather character bases.

Their chain grabs are good, but are not easy to execute, and can be easily read. IC cannot run from wolf perpetually, as he has the advantage at a range and at arms length. At point blank IC have the advantage, but its very easy to avoid that situation.

Of course, this is based on a Wolf who does more than just fsmash shields all day long. Because there are a lot of ways to stop IC grabbing you, as far as that goes, I would say Wolf has a decent anti-ice climber armoury.

I would say between 55:45 or 60:40. Wolf's favour.

Well, I'll agree with this to a certain point, but unless your kicking a corpse around some of these "advantages" will not help too much in actuall combat, sure anyone can beat Ic's with the propper mind games and tactic, but thats skill based, which is why characters need to be judged at a lvl of maximum potencial, tech growth and the learning curve of the ppl who main them, all these need to be be taken into account.

Say we take a pro (by pro I mean plays like a machine and never makes mistakes) Wolf vs Pro Ice climbers, the character statistics would dictate the Ic's winning. Why? Wolf has way too much cool down on his ground combat attacks, if an Ic's mainer were to propperly power shield over half the attacks in wolfs arsenal, there would be a guarantee'd grab right behind it, which means an instant 36% - 52% or death in some cases if the player decides to de-sync and uses nana to ledge hog Wolfs horrible recovery.

As far as finishing, they can kill wolf on most stages at about 120-130, one of the best for dealing with wolf would be the grab to up smash, at higher %'s it's basicly a hit and forget finish.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 1, 2008

^ 120 - 130% Kos is pretty bad

Ishiey · Oct 1, 2008

Mitsurugi, if wolf was played by a perfect player, he would be top tier. Space Bair perfectly to avoid grabs, and shine whenever you are getting attacked since you get instant invincibility. If you can use both of those moves perfectly you don't really need anything else, but we're only human. If you don't get grabbed it's in your favor, but a good IC will likely be able to get one in against a human, so once that happens, things suck. It all depends on how good you are at not getting grabbed IMO, as wolf mains we all need to learn to aviod all possible opportunities to get grabbed. We should make a list of all the ways IC, D3, and Falco (maybe pika and a few others too) like to get you into a grab, and how to attempt to avoid them.

ArcPoint · Oct 1, 2008

They can actually kill Wolf at around one hundred...and Mitsurugi, please change your font color, I had to highlight it just to read it X_X

The ICs really limit Wolf's options because as a Wolf player you should not be putting out attacks that can be punished (In the form of grabs), so that limits your use of Fsmash, Usmash, and Ftilt. You're really limited to well spaced aerials and baits, you really can't commit to anything. Keep up a pressure game so they can't go back and desync.

As for actual comparisons... uhm... Wolf outranges the climbers, he can zone and outspace them very well. However once they mess up... misspace an aerial, get tricked, whatever.... the ICs can punish severely. And they don't really need all that much in order to KO. Give or take 100% -> grab -> Popo Fthrow -> Nana Grab -> Nana Bthrow -> Popo Usmash -> ??? -> Profit.

Wolf can kill the ICs fairly easily... Gimping nana is going to be a key in the matchup.

As for a number... I dunno, I'll call it 60:40 Ics favor, it'd be even without the chaingrabs, but then with them... assuming you only make a few mistakes and the ICs player makes a few as well, even at the highest level of play people make mistakes. So eh, I dunno.

xX'Mitsurugi'Xx · Oct 1, 2008

Tested..... an undeminished D-smash will kill Popo at exactly 90%....... at the very end of the stage, at the stage shoulder it's 102% and in the middle 122% as for Ic's the most common chain grab will do around 54%, thats with no buffered grabs attached, the grab to upsmash kills at exactly 104% with no chance of escape, another thing I found is that the 2nd hit of the f-smash can be stopped cold by the Ic's d-smash, Ic's D-tilt special out ranges wolf's b-air and f-tilt and Ic's f-smash hits from 110 degrees to 50 degrees, thus over-head b-air becomes a little more risky...... thats just a few things I found, take it with a grain of salt. (no font coloration for arc point) XD As for being human, it doesn't matter if your a perfect player or not, this is brawl not melee, there's always gonna be a window of punishment, no matter how good you play.

Sesshomuronay · Oct 1, 2008

I honestly have absolutely no idea about this matchup. I think we should ask the ice climber players for help. Some people say its in wolfs and others say its in the ICs favor. Im gonna say 55/45 for IC.

Chaco · Oct 1, 2008

Ishieymoro said:
Mitsurugi, if wolf was played by a perfect player, he would be top tier.

Doubted. There are to many hindersome facts that kill that. And yes ICs **** Wolf. I'm saying 6.5:4.5 ICs Favor. And your bair tricks will not phase and experienced IC main. Once you land, they special you, then CG your ***. Bye bye wolfy.

Ishiey · Oct 1, 2008

Bair doesn't have too much landing lag, with proper prediction on wolf's part it's possible to shine out of almost everything, first six frames have invincibility, although human reaction time holds back its true power. Top tier was probably a bit of a stretch, but bair is great at outranging grabs, and if done properly shouldn't be punished by something threatening, if it gets punished at all. Unless you desynch so that one IC needs to be shined and the other one can go in and grab during the shine's cooldown, and if they don't shine your first IC you get grabbed anyways. If an IC could desynch that well, every character would be screwed because getting grabbed would be inevitable, among other things, it would be like playing two SoPos... Fortunately desynch skills like that are relatively hard to find...

...Well then, I was wrong ._. Desynchs are a pain, but if it isn't done with crazy skill, bairs should still be a very safe option, for the reasons mentioned above. I mean, shine counters everything quickly enough, and it reflects downB, and can be rolled out of after that, so unless you bait it wolf should be fine.

Sylvan · Oct 1, 2008

IC down b can be stopped with blaster. IC might survive a smash till about 100% from the centre of the stage, but the are still set up for an easy KO (which is what i meant before). In the air, they have nohting on wolf, unless they are directly above him. Their moves a heck laggy, and one blaster to either nana or popo can put them out of synch and prevent them from recovering. Even a edge hog will 80% endure the death of nana after a successful dsmash on significant %.

You can test at exactly what % IC dies at, but what I really meant is that after the smash, IC are very easy to kill, if they actually survived the smash in the first place.

A single IC is no threat to a decent wolf. Sure there may be some (or one?) great single IC mains, but they are not the norm.

Grabbing wolf and usmashing is a pain, but it's probably IC only real killer. there aren't a huge number of ways to set up a grab, especially with someone as slow as IC versus someone with a move as fast as reflector.

Desynchs are a pain, but they are easy in interupt.

Shine does counter everything (including down b) but I would say use blaster to stop down b, as reflecting it doesn't do very much.

Chaco · Oct 1, 2008

Sylvan said:
IC down b can be stopped with blaster. IC might survive a smash till about 100% from the centre of the stage, but the are still set up for an easy KO (which is what i meant before). In the air, they have nohting on wolf, unless they are directly above him. Their moves a heck laggy, and one blaster to either nana or popo can put them out of synch and prevent them from recovering. Even a edge hog will 80% endure the death of nana after a successful dsmash on significant %.

You can test at exactly what % IC dies at, but what I really meant is that after the smash, IC are very easy to kill, if they actually survived the smash in the first place.

A single IC is no threat to a decent wolf. Sure there may be some (or one?) great single IC mains, but they are not the norm.

Grabbing wolf and usmashing is a pain, but it's probably IC only real killer. there aren't a huge number of ways to set up a grab, especially with someone as slow as IC versus someone with a move as fast as reflector.

Desynchs are a pain, but they are easy in interupt.

Shine does counter everything (including down b) but I would say use blaster to stop down b, as reflecting it doesn't do very much.

Your close yet, so far.

IC's only kill move on wolf is not the grab and usmash. They have the grab over ledge to fair. They also have a very nice UpB. It may not be used much as a kill move but it can **** you up when you least expect it.

Heh, have you seen a single IC that is good? Let's take a look at: Hylian, Melee1, Millar, etc.

They will all anally **** you with just Popo...I know Millar does that first hand.

Hmm...most desynchs are not easy to interrupt yet some are. alternating SH blizzards can get you in a bad situation very quickly if you even as much as get a hit from the first one. And also, SH bliazzards alternated with Ice blocks. Alternating squalls. Y'see, they have more desynch option than you think. And the Fsmash fake out, is a great mindgame, your focused on the charging Popo Fsmash and Nana can hit you with an uncharged. You still have a risk of dying. Especially, when you are above 80%. A good IC will also never Dair. I never have seen Hylian use it really in all his vids.

Grab set ups...yes there are quite a few. Ask Hylian, he'll set ya straight.

Sylvan · Oct 2, 2008

Chaco said:
Your close yet, so far.

IC's only kill move on wolf is not the grab and usmash. They have the grab over ledge to fair. They also have a very nice UpB. It may not be used much as a kill move but it can **** you up when you least expect it.

Heh, have you seen a single IC that is good? Let's take a look at: Hylian, Melee1, Millar, etc.

They will all anally **** you with just Popo...I know Millar does that first hand.

Hmm...most desynchs are not easy to interrupt yet some are. alternating SH blizzards can get you in a bad situation very quickly if you even as much as get a hit from the first one. And also, SH bliazzards alternated with Ice blocks. Alternating squalls. Y'see, they have more desynch option than you think. And the Fsmash fake out, is a great mindgame, your focused on the charging Popo Fsmash and Nana can hit you with an uncharged. You still have a risk of dying. Especially, when you are above 80%. A good IC will also never Dair. I never have seen Hylian use it really in all his vids.

Grab set ups...yes there are quite a few. Ask Hylian, he'll set ya straight.

I've had plenty of IC experience. I stated that before. I've fought the 5th and 7th best players in the region, in a very significant number of battles. both credited with being IC mains. As well as others, in non wi-fi environments. (tourney rules)

I am speaking out of purely first hand experience. There are no assumptions, nothing I've said has been based off watching videos and saying "I think if I did this it would work."

Saying IC only kill move isn't their grab usmash, is like saying wolf's only kill move isn't his dsmash, of course it isn't. Their grab to edge and meteor can be interrupted with a reflector unless their timing is 100% perfect. Wolf has to just hold down and jam b like no tomorrow, unless IC have absolutely perfect timing, they will be stunned.

Post logic behind your single IC match ups and I might listen, saying a few players will **** me is hardly convincing. Most players will **** me, regardless. I'm not the best player in the world. But they are, so go figure. This isn't about player match ups, it's about characters. A single IC, has short range, slow moves and poor recovery. About all they have on wolf is a CG that works to less than 40%. Give me moveset reasons, rather than player names.

I've seen an IC de-synch at least 5 different ways in about 10 seconds, so I do know quite a few methods of it. I can tell you, wolf's reflector is pain to it. It's very difficult to compensate for a move that wolf can use instantaneously form anywhere, and that can immediately stop a desynch.

IC have pivot grabs, reverse pivot grabs, shield grabs, desynched's and a lot more. Wolf, has bair, reflector, blaster and grabs of his own to counter. It's much easier for wolf to stay away from IC and remain in control of the battle than it is for IC to do so.

If you strongly think what I've learnt from experience is wrong, then I won't say any more.

Hylian · Oct 2, 2008

Sylvan said:
I've had plenty of IC experience. I stated that before. I've fought the 5th and 7th best players in the region, in a very significant number of battles. both credited with being IC mains. As well as others, in non wi-fi environments. (tourney rules)

I am speaking out of purely first hand experience. There are no assumptions, nothing I've said has been based off watching videos and saying "I think if I did this it would work."

What region are you in and who were the IC's you played?

Saying IC only kill move isn't their grab usmash, is like saying wolf's only kill move isn't his dsmash, of course it isn't. Their grab to edge and meteor can be interrupted with a reflector unless their timing is 100% perfect. Wolf has to just hold down and jam b like no tomorrow, unless IC have absolutely perfect timing, they will be stunned.

What? You do realize that the IC's can CG wolf to the edge and NT spike (which is 100% inescapable mind you)...This kills wolf at around 50% because of how poor his recovery is. They can just edgehog him after the NT spike. When playing against wolf it's ideal to do this to get kills because it means you have to CG less and can kill at lower %'s. Less room for error. Also, IC's have other various ways of killing out of desynchs such a solo squall to fsmash or blizzard to upsmash.

Post logic behind your single IC match ups and I might listen, saying a few players will **** me is hardly convincing. Most players will **** me, regardless. I'm not the best player in the world. But they are, so go figure. This isn't about player match ups, it's about characters. A single IC, has short range, slow moves and poor recovery. About all they have on wolf is a CG that works to less than 40%. Give me moveset reasons, rather than player names.

I agree with you that Wolf should destroy a single IC, BUT they can CG him with only dthrow to about 60% and then fsmash. It's easy not to get grabbed by one climber though so this doesn't really matter.

I've seen an IC de-synch at least 5 different ways in about 10 seconds, so I do know quite a few methods of it. I can tell you, wolf's reflector is pain to it. It's very difficult to compensate for a move that wolf can use instantaneously form anywhere, and that can immediately stop a desynch.

This statement tells me you know almost nothing about Ice Climbers. It's insulting that you would even be trying to argue the match-up when you obviously can't recognize or don't know what de-synching is. It is practically impossibile to do 5 different de-synchs in 10 seconds considering the climbers have to synch together again before desynching. The only way you might be able to do this is by pivoting a jab 5 times in a row, but I'm pretty sure that would take a little over 10 seconds to preform and it's certianly not like anything you described. You also talk about de-synching like it's an attack that you can stop with Wolf's reflector. That is halrious. I would love to know how wolf's reflector is going to stop me from doing a turnaround de-synch into a dash attack+fsmash coverage. You obviously don't understand desynching so I wouldn't bother arguing it if I were you. Go learn more about the IC's if you intend to retort to people intellegently please.

IC have pivot grabs, reverse pivot grabs, shield grabs, desynched's and a lot more.

Every character has pivot grabs, reverse pivot grabs, and shield grabs. I'm not quite sure what a desynched is and I don't see your point.

Wolf, has bair, reflector, blaster and grabs of his own to counter. It's much easier for wolf to stay away from IC and remain in control of the battle than it is for IC to do so.

And why is this? You don't post any reasonings, you just simply state it as fact. That's probably because you know very little about the IC's and it would be hard for you to describe how Wolf controls the pace of the match over them while sounding like you have a clue.

If you strongly think what I've learnt from experience is wrong, then I won't say any more.

I strongly feel that you have no clue what you are talking about. I personally think IC's are at a disadvantage when playing wolf, but I have very good reasons for that and I actually know what I'm talking about. I couldn't stand to read your post because of how wrong your information is. You really should go read an IC FAQ or something. You don't seem to have the slightest clue about how they are played correctly.

And what Ice climber players do you have experience against? I know all the good ones. I'm sorry if this post seems harsh but I like to get my point across firmly. I can't stand people arguing with false information or just coming up with anything they can think of rather then factual arguments. Some people just strive to be right. Try to be the person that strives to learn. In the end, it will work out better for you.

The Real Inferno · Oct 2, 2008

This matchup is so stupid If you get grabbed once before killing Nana you lose a stock and that is just sad. Wolf is best off to camp on platforms and peck at the Ice Climbers as they come after you in an attempt to desync Nana, then destroy her as fast as possible. One on One should be fine, but Wolf can actually have a very tough time seperating the ice climbers if they stay synced and play defensively (like if they just wait to shield grab any of his moves). Side B can reflect his laser and carrying them into Desynced combos which isn't very helpful either. From my own personal Ice Climber experiences, I'd have to say it's a big uphill battle until Nana is dead because Wolf has to play so carefully to keep from being grabbed, probably one of the most boring sights in Brawl as Wolf runs and camps like a little girl until it's safe for him to fight Popo.

On the upside for Wolf, if he's not feeling like being a coward today, the unique properties of Forward smash really **** with Nana hard. Tipping a Dsmash can knock just Popo out, leaving Nana to your mercy for a short while. wolf is quite Capable of outright killing Nana with a WoP (lol) Bair. Against Popo, Wolf's range and power should do the job nicely, scoring the easy kill.

Overall rating: I feel this matchup -can- be very close but Wolf has an advantage if he plays to his strengths and doesn't get over eager, spacing back and keep them out of grab range. 60:40 Wolf.

Sylvan · Oct 2, 2008

ok, do I know very little. My region is listed in just below my avatar. It's NSW, Australia.

[EDIT] I will apologise for the 5 de-synch in 10 sec comment, I pulled those number out of my ***.

some of my logic behind stopping de synch with reflector involves the spacing IC require to pull off their moves. When they de synch they are slow, because a dash will re-synch them. At close range, the reflector has set knock back and a large range of view, so it can stop a squall hammer and simultaneously stop the smash attack. (assuming its a squall/smash de synch)

I don't really want to go through and explain every point Hylian insulted me for. It's not worth my health. I do want to say: "I know all the good ones." lol. just lol. You don't know every good IC on the planet. You may know a lot, but not all. Not by a long shot. Then you blame me for lying XD[/edit]
*thats it for me on this topic. Sorry if i offended anyone, really, didn't mean to.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 2, 2008

Hylian, could you please post some reasons on why Wolf has the advantage?

Match-up discussion #15: Ice Climbers

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