Frame data

Browny · Sep 27, 2008

So i finally got around to doing this. I only got one problem. all of my values are a fair bit higher than what most people get. comparing my values for marths and lucariowith those given in their respective boards, all of mine are on average 5/3 (no joke its exactly 1.667) larger. so taking that into account ive had to divide my values by that number and rounded up/down. I think its accurate enough, my numbers are all within the numbers for lucario/marths give or take 1 frame each way, maybe 2 in extreme cases (like the 3rd hitbox on dsmash)

anyway to read this.
Hitbox out = frames until first hitbox comes out
Ends = time the attack lasts if it is NOT blocked
Landing lag = pretty obvious...
Safety = If this move is shielded, enemy has this many frames to attack you if they drop shield instantly to counter-attack while you are still lagging from the attack
Autocancels - the frame window in which you can land during this attack with 0 lag

Jab
Hitbox out - 3, 10, 20
Ends - 36

Grab
Hitbox out - 6~?
Ends - 29

Running grab
Hitbox out - 9~?
Ends - 39

ftilt
Hitbox out - 6
Ends - 35
Safety - 16

dtilt
Hitbox out - 6
Ends - 26
Safety - 11

utilt
Hitbox out - 7
Ends - 48
Safety - 22

fsmash
Hitbox out - 17
Ends - 43
Safety - 12

dsmash
Hitbox out - 16, 23, 29
Ends - 54
Safety - 9 (vs 3rd hit only)

usmash
Hitbox out - 17~49
Ends - 65
Safety - 17

nair
Hitbox out - 5~???
Landing lag - 13 (i suspect this changes depending on if you FF it or not)

fair
Hitbox out - 4
Landing lag - 29

dair
Hitbox out - 16
Landing lag - 30

bair
Hitbox out - 13, 16~19 (the 9% part of the attack lingers for a while, hard to measure)
Landing lag - 8

uair
Hitbox out - 5, 16
Landing lag - 21
Autocancels - 26~?

dash attack
Hitbox out - 4~23
Ends - 43

airdodge
47

homing attack
Hitbox out - 24

Spin dash
Invulnerable from - 1~6

You're Too Slow! - 109

Cover FD's length in 55

And some other interesting things,
a shield-cancelled foxtrot into an fsmash is 70 frames, while a pivotted foxtrot into an fsmash is 46. thats the time when the hitbox is out. put simply, you can dash like 1/4 FD's length to fsmash REALLY fast.

So yeah again, my method may not be perfect by any means, but at least its a start. Determining the final hitbox on aerials is next to impossible lol. I realise i forgot to find out when aerials end... ill get on that

Chis · Sep 27, 2008

djbrowny thank you for doing this.

Tenki · Sep 27, 2008

djbrowny said:
Cover FD's length in 55

o shi-

what is the meaning of this.

Browny · Sep 27, 2008

??

the time it takes to run from one edge of FD to the other. it does seem a little low lol ill check that...

nah its still good. I think my 5/3 factor gets more unnacurate the longer something takes. it might be fine for 0-30 frames but gets kind of lost beyond that :/

Tenki · Sep 27, 2008

Yeah, running across FD is definitely longer than 1 second.

Can you check the length of screech stop (interrupting it ASAP) too? that'd be awesome.

I wanna see the diff between screechstop and shieldstop

Browny · Sep 27, 2008

yeah, i actually did measure that, just forgot to put it in :/

its kind of hard to time it properly, but it seems like theres 2 types of shield stops. 1 is 4 frames, the other is 1 :O screech stopping could be anywhere from 7 upwards. however like i said at the end, cancelling a screech-stop into an attack (from a foxtrot) is about 24 frames faster than shield-stopping into an attack

Tenki · Sep 27, 2008

foxtrot isn't screech stop though

ShadowLink84 · Sep 27, 2008

dj how did you test this exactly?
I've been curious about this since I am quite sure Sonic's hitbox for his grabbox is out for around 3 frames rather than 5.

Tenki · Sep 27, 2008

Oh yeah, for the smashes, can you kinda check how long it takes upon release?

so like, if we hold down A to charge it, then release, the amount of frames for how long it takes for the smash to hit.

Napilopez · Sep 27, 2008

Thnx dj for this XD. As for the smashes release time, I'd be very interested in that as well.

Also Tenki, I did simple testing myself about covering FD. Took a stop watch, went to training mode in 1/4 speed. After several trials, I got an average of like 3.95 or something like that for covering the entire length of FD, meaning that Sonic does cross FD in just slight below 1 second. Thats pretty impressive. Also, just for kicks, I get about 3.0 ish secs on 1/4th for Sonics spincharge, fully charged, from release, to cros FD. Thats 0.75 of a second or 40 frames O.o. Sometimes I got as low as 2.6 for it to cross FD, sometimes as high as 3.4, so I'm going with the average of 3.0 seconds on 1/4th, or about .75 seconds. I think there is some sort of correlation between holding forward and speed but I'm not sure. Wish i had someone to help me time stuff XD

aeghrur · Sep 27, 2008

Are the smashes out in those frames with charge up included or without?

Terios the Hedgehog · Sep 27, 2008

Do we know the frames difference for Armor grabbing?

It's on the SAME frame right?

Browny · Sep 27, 2008

:/ that stuffs pretty hard to figure out.

@ tenki, im pretty sure the fastest way to cancel a dash is to cancel a screech stop with a shield as soon as possible. no joke, i cant see a single frame between the full run animation, to the screech to the shield coming out. screech stopping doesnt give you too many options besides dash attacking from it anyway i thought?

@ shadow, every other character board seems to use 5 frames, so i just based it off thiers. I used a camcorder, taping the game in 1/4 speed.

ill get to figuring out the release time on smashes, although i hardly think it will make them better lol.

Napilopez · Sep 27, 2008

Actually, I think the release time is quite important. For example. Charge an fmsash with Dedede, then release. It still takes a while for the Hammer to actually go down and hit someone. While if you charge meta's fsmash and release, it will release almost instantaneously.

Dark Sonic · Sep 27, 2008

djbrowny said:
@ tenki, im pretty sure the fastest way to cancel a dash is to cancel a screech stop with a shield as soon as possible. no joke, i cant see a single frame between the full run animation, to the screech to the shield coming out. screech stopping doesnt give you too many options besides dash attacking from it anyway i thought?

Screech stoping lets you do anything that you'd be able to do from a standing position. It's when sonic does the screeching motion when you let the control stick go to neutral during a full dash. The animation looks pretty long, but it's got massive IASA frames on it.

@ shadow, every other character board seems to use 5 frames, so i just based it off thiers. I used a camcorder, taping the game in 1/4 speed.

Do you have the ability to play it back frame by frame? (as that would give you more accurate frame data)

Browny · Sep 27, 2008

i can clearly see the moves frame by frame. in fact ill upload a video now, and you can clearly see marths fsmash coming out on frame 16 and dtilt on 11, despite the fact thier boards say its like 10 and 7 respectively :/ Theres no interpolation between frames btw, anyone can see that

Dark Sonic · Sep 27, 2008

^^Well, that's just when the animations come out. The only important thing is when the hitboxes come out, which doesn't nessecarily match.

BTW, Marth's frame data was collected by M2K (back when he still played Marth). Not saying that you shouldn't trust your eyes, but it is kinda hard to believe that he'd be wrong about something like this (he's the guy that memorized the exact percentages for Fox and Falco's chaingrabs in melee, along with other random frame data things).

We could always try to get Magus or Ankoku to try to check some things if we're still not sure about certain moves.

Browny · Sep 28, 2008

maybe my camcrder is running at 100fps or something lol, that would explain perfectly the 3/5 ratio im getting. anyway video should be up now.. hurry up youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnMNHsRcSMQ

wut. maybe marths fsmash hits above him first.

anyway the marth boards have it as
fsmash - 10
dsmash - 6
dtilt - 7

da K.I.D. · Sep 28, 2008

its been known and tested that sonic can cover all of FD in at the most 1 second.

and does the forward smash hitbox really stay out for 26 frames, thats almost half a second...

for the record, you are not supposed to use slowed speeds in training mode for testing, such as 1/4 speed. its been proven that the game adds addition frames to the animation to make it move smoother in slow motion.

and lastly, this is part of the reason why sonic is so bad, in contrast, the majority of wolfs attacks have an average of being active on frame 5. and on average, sonics attacks dont activate until frame 10, and alot of them take much longer than that... that being said, sonic is a slow fighter, and that is one of the reasons that he is so bad

Napilopez · Sep 28, 2008

da K.I.D. said:
that being said, sonic is a slow fighter, and that is one of the reasons that he is so bad

Oh the Irony!

Question though, adding additional frames doesnt necesarily imply that the hitbox comes out on a different frames does it? All its doing is making the animation more fluid.

Anyways, Sonic speed is why tech chasing is awesome for him. If you do a dthrow, sometimes the camera isn't even quick enough to follow Sonics speed and its hard for enemies to see you approaching.

After this frame data, Sonics running speed seems all the more impressive to me. You can cover a fourth of FD in the time it takes a Usmash or Dsmash to come out XD.

Browny · Sep 28, 2008

ill re-do this data in half speed, since theres no frames added. although my numbers at the moment should all be correct +/- 1 frame either way

Dark Sonic · Oct 1, 2008

^^So I PMed Magus and he told me how to accurately get frame data. Recording at slower speeds is actually wrong, as brawl adds frames to make the gameplay look smoother.

Magus420 said:
Dark Sonic said:

So, the Sonic boards have been trying to find frame data for him, but things haven't exactly been going well. We used Marth as a test dummy...and got drastically different results from what M2K got. Obviously our method is wrong (we'd been recording his moves at 1/4th speed in training mode and then slowing the playback down to 1/15th speed. But the results were way off).

Any help?
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196297

Click to expand...

You definitely don't want to alter the game speed at all in Brawl.

The best way is to capture the game in normal speed and be able to get the raw unaltered and still interlaced (this is important) 29.97 frames per second capture onto your computer. Most 'user friendly' capture programs try to deinterlace this source capture for you since interlaced video does not display well on a progressive display like your computer, and you need to avoid this being done.

When done properly, this method will always be 100% correct, so it's the next best thing to a debug mode for finding frame data. It's also pretty quick once you know the process. I did very thorough and detailed frame data for Luigi for Brawl in like 4-6 hours including all IASAs, hitbox windows, autocancels, hitlag/stun/~~advantages~~ disadvantages (lol Brawl), etc.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175652

An important thing to mention is that the invincibility 'flashing' isn't actually a true representation of when you're invincible like in Melee. I noticed this when I did Luigi's stuff. The only way to find it is to test it directly to see the frames where they begin not getting hit for the start of the window and begin getting hit again for the end. I never bothered to redo this for Luigi since I've played the game maybe twice or something since then back in June, lol.

In NTSC the game runs at 59.94 frames/game images per sec, and when you capture through composite (the basic yellow video cable) or S-Video the signal that is carried is 29.97 interlaced frames per sec, which is actually 59.94 fields per sec with each field representing 1 game 'frame' and there are 2 of these fields in each interlaced frame.

So in reality every game frame you need is actually there in a basic normal speed capture, but 99% of the time when programs deinterlace the video they scrap 1 of those fields for viewing on a computer and you are left with a 29.97 progressive video (1 image per frame) and so half of the game frames are lost.

To get around this you need to do the deinterlacing yourself, and instead of scrapping half the fields you want to separate the fields into separate frames creating a 59.94 frames per sec progressive video. You could also capture through component to get 59.94 progressive, but I believe capture cards that have these particular inputs are extremely expensive/aren't readily available for consumers. With this all you need is any basic capture card/gamebridge/whatever.

I use VirtualDub (to do the capture and to view it) along with AviSynth which can do the proper deinterlacing method for this purpose. I begin to go over how I do it here and in my next 2-3 posts or so in that thread:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163775&p=4338287

I also explain some things about the video signal that is captured, interlaced video, deinterlacing, and how it applies when wanting to get all 59.94 (aka 60) game images/frames per second from the captured video signal here:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162023&p=4308928

Also, like I mentioned in that first thread explaining it, you should be sure to record the move being done at least twice just in case a field happens to be added/dropped at the same time you used the move which could cause the data to be off by 1 'frame' on occasion. Having that to double check, and also having the in-game timer on will make sure the numbers you get are exact.

If you happen to have an S-Video connection for input and a cable that has an S-Video out from the game you should use that. The signal is basically the same as the normal composite (yellow), just that the image you get is a bit clearer which helps with reading things like Brawl's tiny game clock numbers.

When capturing, I recommend using a lossless codec or at least a very very high bitrate with a codec like XviD/Divx or something if you don't have adequate hard drive space for a lossless capture. The reason being that you don't want to get compression artifacts across the interlaced fields, which would distort fine details in the image that after you deinterlace it will make things like the game clock difficult or impossible to read.

I myself use the Lagarith Lossless video codec if you want a suggestion for one:
http://lags.leetcode.net/codec.html

ShadowLink84 · Oct 1, 2008

I recommend doing what I do.
Slow the game down by 1/10th and simply count the number of frames.

>_>

Use a capture card

Dark Sonic · Oct 1, 2008

ShadowLink84 said:
I recommend doing what I do.
Slow the game down by 1/10th and simply count the number of frames.

>_>

Use a capture card

^^You must record the game at normal speed.

Also

Magus said:
'user friendly' capture programs try to deinterlace this source capture for you since interlaced video does not display well on a progressive display like your computer, and you need to avoid this being done.

So it's a little more complicated than just slowing down the replay.

Kinzer · Oct 1, 2008

Why does it feel that even though from that chart Nair claims to have a 13 frame landing lag animation yet when I hit the ground after one I can almost always follow up with antoher attack? Is it because I've been fullhopping Nairs and if done after the hitbox animation it actually ends up having no landing lag nonewhatsoever or something?

ROOOOY! · Oct 1, 2008

There's not NONE, but there is very little.
Did you fast fall the aerials or whatever? That'd have something to do with it.

Kinzer · Oct 1, 2008

I try to avoid FF the other aerials because all of them to me have very noticable landing lag/landing lag animation and I can get severly punished in the second Sonic is trying to get back up from his feet from an aerial done close to the ground. (You've all seen how Sonic can do like an upside-down splits with the Uair right?)

Anyway I have yet to recall a time when I have done a "bad" Nair, to me it seems like a great aerial move to followup with more ground attacks if you're opponent is at low%, not to mention if it hits your opponent at the first few frames it has some great knockback/killing potential (As I tend to keep this move fresh because I don't use it very often)

Dark Sonic · Oct 2, 2008

Sonic's side B definately has more than 6 frames of invincibility dude (Marth's DS has 4 and we all know how rediculously fast that move is.)

I think the frame data should eventually be redone (not to criticize you or anything, but we need accurate frame data for matchup discussions/knowing what move beats what/ect. and such).

Yes, I did in fact say ect. and such.

Browny · Oct 2, 2008

my data is all correct within +/- 1 frame i can be very sure of that. the only time where it starts getting iffy is the ending hitboxes of things like usmash and fair, trying to connect the last hit only is extremely difficult. the factor of 5/3 is perfect, every single other character board i tested my data (lucario, marth, wolf, pit) fits however it starts to lose a bit of accuracy beyond attacks that last for more than maybe 30 frames. these numbers are good enough for now. i dont know if my camcorder can go up to 30fps and counting the frames in full speed is going to be amazingly difficult so it might be a while until i do this again.

Dark Sonic · Oct 2, 2008

^^Well, just to be sure, where can I buy a capture card? I want to test things like IASA frames and invincibility frames.

And even if I were to say side B is invincible for 7 frames instead of 6, that doesn't explain why it's almost 3 times as long as Marth's up B, which has 4 frames of invincibilty and 5 frame startup. What are you using as an indicator of invincibilty (because the white flashing is not an accurate indicator if that's what you were using. It's purely cosmetic now). I'd sujest having Sonic side B through a large, lingering hitbox (Lucari's f-smash might work), and seeing what frame he gets hit on.

Side B also is definately not invincible on the first frame (maybe first frame of release, but not the first frame of startup lag).

Tenki · Oct 2, 2008

Dark Sonic said:
^^Well, just to be sure, where can I buy a capture card? I want to test things like IASA frames and invincibility frames.

And even if I were to say side B is invincible for 7 frames instead of 6, that doesn't explain why it's almost 3 times as long as Marth's up B, which has 4 frames of invincibilty and 5 frame startup. What are you using as an indicator of invincibilty (because the white flashing is not an accurate indicator if that's what you were using. It's purely cosmetic now). I'd sujest having Sonic side B through a large, lingering hitbox (Lucari's f-smash might work), and seeing what frame he gets hit on.

Side B also is definately not invincible on the first frame (maybe first frame of release, but not the first frame of startup lag).

I felt like its invincibility frames were shorter.

And of course we're talking about release >_>

ShadowLink84 · Oct 2, 2008

Dark Sonic said:
^^You must record the game at normal speed.

.

I meant slowing it down after recording

Dark Sonic · Oct 2, 2008

Tenki said:
I felt like its invincibility frames were shorter.

And of course we're talking about release >_>

Well, wouldn't it be important to know how many frames of startup side B has?

And while it definately has more invincibility frames than Marth's up B, I'm not sure exactly how much more it has. I guess 6 or 7 frames isn't that short. Maybe I'm just getting thrown off by the startup lag of the side B, so it feels longer?

ShadowLink84 said:
I meant slowing it down after recording

Magus said:
So in reality every game frame you need is actually there in a basic normal speed capture, but 99% of the time when programs deinterlace the video they scrap 1 of those fields for viewing on a computer and you are left with a 29.97 progressive video (1 image per frame) and so half of the game frames are lost.

I think you have to view the replay with a specific program (he mentioned the program he used in the passage), to prevent it from deleting half of the frames.

Napilopez · Oct 2, 2008

Dark Sonic, the priority on the SideB hop is weird. From my observation, priority seems to decrease as the hop progresses.

The reason why you may think it has many more invincibility frames than marth's upB is that after the invincibility frames are over, SideB then has alottt of priority, but not invincible. As the hop progresses, it seems to have less and less priority, until the SDR begins, and priority is reset during the phase change. Tenki had guessed the weird priority in SideB might be due to hitbox location, but im not sure. For example, try going through wolfs laser with SideB. You can ONLY go through it at the very beginning, when it is invincible. Your timing has to be impeccable. Meanwhile, if you try to go through mario's fireball, or certain fsmshes, you will find that you have a slightly larger window to work with. Also, when you use solely the invincibility frames, you don't see the little "clang" sprite pop up. When you use sideB and its at high priority, but not invincible, you will see that little clanging sprite come up, even if you go through the move.

Dark Sonic · Oct 2, 2008

^^You know, I had never really noticed that. Well that explains a few things, thanks.

Greenstreet · Oct 2, 2008

hmm u can see that effect when just pushing up after charging. assuming the whole process is one giant hop, we see that by the end there is no damage at all, let alone priority.

da K.I.D. · Oct 2, 2008

and for the record, up b does not have invincibilty immediately upon startup because if it did, we wouldnt be able to get grabed by D3 immediately after deploying the spring

Tenki · Oct 2, 2008

da K.I.D. said:
and for the record, up b does not have invincibilty immediately upon startup because if it did, we wouldnt be able to get grabed by D3 immediately after deploying the spring

It doesn't.

It has invincibility as soon as you jump off the spring.

There are a few frames of Sonic spawning the spring/getting ready to jump, and you're right, those don't have invincibility.

Boxob · Oct 2, 2008

Tenki said:
It doesn't.

It has invincibility as soon as you jump off the spring.

There are a few frames of Sonic spawning the spring/getting ready to jump, and you're right, those don't have invincibility.

I'm confused as to why you made that post, sir.

da K.I.D. · Oct 2, 2008

so that we all know what the hell is going on, and how this crap works

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