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Why Sonic Sucks- aka learn to player.

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Tenki

Tenki

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.__.;

It's been kinda distressing to see Sonic board participation in inter-board matchup discussions, and it reared its ugly head in the (thank goodness it's locked)... Sonic's Tier Placement thread.

Sonic Sucks
omggmgg but u mainz sonic!!? u maed me disbeliv in tierz wen i plaed u!

I'm going to quote/re-fix something I put elsewhere.

Sonic:
+ can attack/airdodge/fsj out of up-B
+ invincibility frames on side-B (hop) release
+ side-B, aerial down-B are cancellable into shield
+ Fast run (full length of FD in a little over 1 second?!) for baiting, punishing, and avoiding attacks.
+ Good grab game (pummels, 'chase' throws, etc)
+ Comboability out of spindash and/or springs.
+ One of the most versatile foxtrots in game
+ Can attain temporary 'run speed' in the air via spinshot.
- Kill moves have generally low knockback and speed
- Low aerial acceleration (doesn't change directions easily)
- Low range on many moves (N-air, Jab, F-air, Spindashes)
- Spindash can be outprioritized or grabbed out of, due to its low range.
- Homing Attack has punishable ending lag and an exploitable trajectory.
- If spaced incorrectly, it's possible to get grabbed out of spring.
- Most moves are multi-hit with low damages per hit (easy to outprioritize)

I bolded things that affect or are put into use in most Sonic mains' gameplay. I highlighted what are, IMO, the major affecting factors of Sonic's gameplay.

I then proceeded to strike out things that factor more into mindgames/player ability.

Red text is stuff that we bring up often to support Sonic gameplay, but are written off.

now, the list, without all the crossouts.
Sonic:
+ can attack/airdodge/fsj out of up-B
+ invincibility frames on side-B (hop) release
+ Good grab game (pummels, 'chase' throws, etc)
+ Comboability out of spindash and/or springs.
- Kill moves have generally low knockback and speed
- Low aerial acceleration (doesn't change directions easily)
- Low range on many moves (N-air, Jab, F-air, Spindashes)
- Spindash can be outprioritized or grabbed out of, due to its low range.
- Homing Attack has punishable ending lag and an exploitable trajectory.
- If spaced incorrectly, it's possible to get grabbed out of spring.
- Most moves are multi-hit with low damages per hit (easy to outprioritize)
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, Sonic has tools a good player can have a field day with, but the problem is that most of his 'objective' character traits... aren't good.

In matchup discussions, bait+punish don't count. Avoiding projectiles... apparently doesn't count either. Doesn't it seem unfair? Doesn't it make you want to go superfanboy lvl3 and sonic pawnch someone?

Too bad. You can't change matchups or tier lists with that. Accept it. Spread it.


;__; baww now we're going to throw steak at you!

M3D said:

1. Tier placement doesn't necessarily reflect your ability to beat your friends with a specific character. You might beat your friend's Metaknight with Sonic, but that doesn't mean Sonic is top tier. It means you win that matchup against your friend. Tiers are not absolute measurements of match outcomes.

5. That said, don't give up hope! Just because your character isn't ranked at or near the top, doesn't mean you can't do fantastic things with them with enough talent and effort. We do not publish this list to encourage players to change their main tournament character. If anything, it should serve as a challenge to take the game to the next level.

6. In Smash, any character can win in any matchup if you are smarter and better than your opponents by a wide enough margin. So keep playing to win and work hard to be the best player you can be, regardless of which character you use.
Click to expand...
Quoted from the tier list post itself.

Wut iz ur point?

And another quote.
Tenki said:
I figured this, after switching to/becoming a Sonic main [yeah, I didn't main him at first lol]- in general, Sonic is a "basic" character at the core of the gameplay; his mobility allows you to take advantage of things alot easier while trying to get around priority issues and crap. Aside from his special attacks (which are... pretty big of a deal), there isn't too much that makes him so different other than mobility and generally smaller physical range.

Anyone who knows how to set up a grab and follow up throws can take advantage of Sonic's grab game.
Anyone who can pick up spacing can take advantage of speed and his few 'ranged' moves.
Anyone who can read opponent movements can take advantage of his spin cancels and speed to bait and punish moves.

Other than learning his jumps, recovery range, dash, move range, and specials, there isn't really much to learn, character-speaking. You just learn to be a better player overall, and apply it to Sonic XD

So really, it's not "learning Sonic" as it is "learning Smash"
Click to expand...
Point?

Be a better player.
There isn't an AT that, when learned, suddenly gives you 50 rings and bam, you're killing people with Sonic, when you were suiciding and getting OHKO'd just 2 games before.

All that stuff that got crossed out in the first list? You can't bring it up in matchup discussions, and it sure as heck didn't change his tier placement. But... Take as much advantage of it as you can. Matchup discussions can be as objective as they can be and still not reflect actual gameplay. Baww Wario can get standing infinite'd by tall characters! But it doesn't change how a good Wario can be almost impossible to grab when it comes to actual gameplay. Everyone can discard Ike's F-air, F-smash, etc, but when it comes to actual gameplay, well, you don't want to be the first Marth in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeOv-sBtBig

That said, join the bandwagon, tell people Sonic sucks. Go to matchup discussions and tell people about how much Sonic sucks and tell them how to counter standalone moves.

But when it comes down to actual gameplay, mind**** them. Outread, outmanuever, outplay.

Learn to player.
 
BlueTerrorist

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LOL at this. Sonic is just a buffed up Pichu. That is all :laugh:.

Shouldn't it be learn to play not learn to player? o_O
 
Tenki

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Learn to player.

People learn to character all the time, but they don't learn to player. Way too much character focus, seriously.
 
InterimOfZeal

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Tenki is right. Sonic is all about learning to player. Hell, most of Brawl is learn to player. Except for Ganon/DK v Olimar. That's learn to cry.
 
Espy Rose

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I've been learning to player for quite some time.

Sonic is steak tier though, so that auto-makes him awesome.
 
Camalange

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I think the boards needed this thread. But I've been learning to player ever since day one. I've always had a thing for low/steak tier characters.
 
Camalange

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InterimOfZeal said:
I musta missed a few things during my Brawl hiatus. I'm assuming the steak is Boxob's doing?
Click to expand...
It's KASR actually...but apparently he died so the steak now symbolizes the greatness and potential of all Sonic mains.
 
thecatinthehat

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Just think, a lot of little boys went to bed crying that night, and it's all your fault.
If only you had just told them from the beginning.

:suess:
 
Tenki

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`.`; Don't kill this thread.

There are still rising Sonic mains/regulars who are still stuck in the 'fanboy mindset', that will try oh-so-hard to prove that Sonic is a good character with the right avoidance moves and with the right mindgames.

This is bad, and it's really starting to grow into quite a hindrance when dealing with other boards.
 
thecatinthehat

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You can never have enough steak Memphis.

I think Tenki's right. Fanboys are making things worse for us around these boards.
 
Dark Sonic

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Seriously guys, you should top spamming this thread. Maybe usefull information would get around faster if these boards were more organized (especially getting out information to other boards.)
 
Kinzer

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Dark Sonic said:
Seriously guys, you should top spamming this thread. Maybe usefull information would get around faster if these boards were more organized (especially getting out information to other boards.)
Click to expand...
Well I know I'm too stupid to come up with any game-breaking techniques for Sonic, but if there's anything known to Sonic I know how it's done (Spinshot anybody?), not only am I a fanboy but I will d*** well do whatever it takes to get people to either hate Sonic more or respect him. (just because there are two kinds of people, there are those who see past Sonic as the arrogant, cocky, laid back Hedgehog and believe in him, and then there are those who aren't so open-minded and just find him irritating.)
 
Tenki

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The Parable of the Steak

Kinzer said:
(just because there are two kinds of people, there are those who see past Sonic as the arrogant, cocky, laid back Hedgehog and believe in him, and then there are those who aren't so open-minded and just find him irritating.)
Click to expand...
..?

That makes no sense.

I see Sonic more as something like this:

Eva-01 eating Angel Steak.

Sonic players more like this:

Pilot of Eva-03, who, as anyone familiar with the series should know, was taken over by an Angel.



You might think, wtf is this anime shiz?, but this has meaning, though. He who has steak in his ear, let him hear.

Evas (the giant mech monster things) are a symbol of Sonic. Evas are controlled by pilots. Characters are controlled by players.
The first picture shows Eva Unit 01 devouring an Angel. You can see the Steak in the Eva's mouth.

The second picture is a loser of a pilot who just wanted to be as cool as his friend who was saving teh city with his Eva. By some miracle, he was chosen to pilot an Eva. However, his Eva was taken over by an Angel. While he was under the influence, he survived nukes and did major bad***ery until he got killed by his best friend, who mained MK piloted the Eva that ate the Angel.

That is the general Sonic main.


A player who wanted to be cool and main Sonic to prove that he doesn't suck. He started to main Sonic, but he was overwhelmed and taken over by Steak (because, as proven in the first picture, the Angels are just a huge conglomeration of Steak). He was able to perform and survive crazy shiz. However, he came up against the player who conquered the Steak, and was defeated.


The player who conquered the Steak was the one who got over the fact of the character and learned to manipulate beyond the character level, and into the players' level. The player who got taken over by the Steak was obviously way too caught up with his character. Of course, he ravaged people who didn't know how to handle the matchup, but he ran into the good player. And even though it was painful, the good player knew how to handle this guy and mind****d him to his death.





BONUS:

And this is the Sonic main who piloted the Eva that ate the Steak.

He's a fanboy, yes he is.
Thanks to infzy for... uh... Shinjonic.
 
Kinzer

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People love and hate Sonic, that's it. I tried to tell my friend how Sonic was a great character but meh he refuses to budge, owell, it's all the more funny to see him get all pissy at how I literally run circles around him with Sonic.
 
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