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Defragmentation - A Breakdown of Stage and Opponent Percent (Fourth Defrag: 2/17/09)

Sudai

Stuff here
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
7,026
Location
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
This thread is meant to be the collaborative effort of the ROB community (That's right, collaborative, don't be afraid to throw your two cents in. :D ) attempt to break down each match-up. Currently this thread contains a chart that tells you the best options to use at certain percents versus each character and a small break down of the stage options you have versus each character.

Now, onto the info!

________________________________


This chart is an IN GENERAl!! break down. There are exceptions where you should -not- follow the chart. IE: If you see a chance to gimp someone, don't skip it because the chart doesn't say "Gimp" (I hope you're not that stupid. :x] or if you're at a high percent and know you won't make it till they're at a high percent, don't be afraid to use kill moves [IE: UThrow for combo set-ups or NAir as a shake-off/punisher move). Despite being a ROBOT, we are blessed with great AI. USE IT.

Code:
Character:..............0%-35%..........- 35%-70%........- 70-110%.......- 110%-135%.....- 135%-150%

Bowser:.................Combo...........- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Camp/Poke.....- Kill
Captain Falcon:.........Combo/Gimp......- Camp/Poke/Gimp - Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Charizard:..............Combo...........- Combo/Camp.....- Camp..........- Camp..........- Kill
Diddy Kong:.............Combo...........- Camp...........- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Donkey Kong:............Combo...........- Combo..........- Camp..........- Camp..........- Kill
Falco:..................Combo/Gimp......- Ledge Camp.....- Ledge Camp....- Kill..........- Kill
Fox:....................Combo/Gimp......- Combo/Gimp.....- Poke..........- Kill..........- Kill
Game And Watch:.........Combo...........- Poke...........- Poke..........- Kill..........- Kill
Ganondorf:..............Combo/Gimp......- Camp/Poke/Gimp - Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Ice Climbers:...........Split and gimp..- Camp/poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Ike:....................Combo/Gimp......- Combo/Gimp.....- Camp..........- Kill..........- Kill
Ivysaur:................Combo/Gimp......- Camp/Gimp......- Camp/Gimp.....- Kill..........- Kill
JigglyPuff:.............Poke/Camp.......- Poke/Camp......- Kill..........- Kill..........- Kill
King Dedede:............Camp/Combo......- Camp...........- Camp..........- Camp/Kill.....- Kill
Kirby:..................Combo/Poke......- Poke/Camp......- Poke/Kill.....- Kill..........- Kill
Link:...................Combo/Gimp......- Camp/gimp......- Camp..........- Kill..........- Kill
Lucario:................Camp/Poke/Gimp..- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Lucas:..................Combo/Gimp......- Poke/Gimp......- Poke/Gimp.....- Kill/Gimp.....- Kill
Luigi:..................Camp/Poke.......- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke/Gimp- Kill..........- Kill
Mario:..................Combo/Poke......- Combo/Poke.....- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Marth:..................Combo/Gimp......- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Meta Knight:............???.............- ???............- ???...........- Kill..........- Kill
Ness:...................Combo/Gimp......- Poke/Gimp......- Poke/Gimp.....- Kill..........- Kill
Olimar:.................Combo/Gimp......- Camp/Gimp......- Camp/Poke/Gimp- Kill/Gimp.....- Kill/Gimp
Peach:..................???.............- ???............- ???...........- Kill..........- Kill
Pikachu:................Combo...........- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Pit:....................Combo/Gimp......- ???............- ???...........- Kill..........- Kill
R.O.B.:.................Combo...........- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Samus:..................???.............- ???............- ???...........- ???...........- Kill
Sheik:..................Combo...........- ???............- ???...........- ???...........- Kill
Snake:..................Combo/Camp/Gimp.- Combo/Camp.....- Camp..........- Camp..........- Kill
Sonic:..................Camp............- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Squirtle:...............Combo/Poke......- Poke...........- Poke..........- Kill..........- Kill
Toon Link:..............Combo/Camp......- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Wario:..................Combo/Camp......- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Camp/Kill.....- Kill
Wolf:...................Combo/Gimp......- Combo/Gimp.....- Poke..........- Poke/Kill.....- Kill
Yoshi:..................Combo/Camp......- Camp...........- Camp..........- Camp/Kill.....- Kill
Zelda:..................Combo...........- Poke...........- Poke..........- Kill..........- Kill
ZSS:....................???.............- ???............- ???...........- ???...........- ???
________________________________

This list is meant to give general guide lines on stages that you should avoid and stages you should abuse. I will need a lot of help filling this section in. People should help. : )

________________________________

Stage Options:

Character:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

________________________________

:bowser2:Bowser:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:falcon:Captain Falcon:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
lol
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
lol
Counterpick Options:
lol
Ban Options:
lol

:diddy:Diddy Kong:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Battlefield - Diddy doesn't have great platform options while the platforms allow us to avoid bananas (or even steal them very easily with a rising FAir!), do some silly through the platform tricks, and limit Diddy's aerial approach a lot.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Final Destination - Long main platform means that if he gets you into a banana lock or banana chain grab, you will eat a lot of damage.
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:dk2:Donkey Kong:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - The long platform is great for camping DK and making him approach you. DK does not have a good option to counter this. Be careful for Cargo Carry > BThrow stage spikes. They're pretty easy to tech if you get used to it.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - Avoid this at all cost! DK has moves that can hit through platforms going either way. He also has low% UAir KO's if he can catch you off the top platform...It's like fighting a gorilla while trapped in a steel cage..
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Home field advantage? What? Naah. ROB can just pitch a tent on either side and DK is pretty screwed. DK had very few approach options before, but now his only approach options are NAir(lol), DKCopter(lol again), and BAir. If they're gonna BAir, it'll be obvious. Just make sure to save your laser once they get close so you can turn him around when he jumps up and now his BAir approach is gone. It's basically an auto-win on this stage.
Ban Options:

:falco:Falco:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Lylat - The platforms help to approach through lasers a -lot-. Falco also has worse anti-platform and platform defense options than ROB does so whenever he's up there, you're at an advantage but you're not necessarily at a disadvantage when the roles are switched. Depending on which way the stage is slanted, you are actually really safe from lasers and the slanting also makes recovery a tad bit harder for Falco. I'm not saying that you should expect the slanting to mess him up too bad, but it will mess him up a little.
Battlefield - The same platform things from Lylat apply here. Small stage also means hard for him to camp.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Final Destination - A good Falco -will- out camp you on this stage. The lack of platforms makes it even harder to approach them and the stage size just means you're eating more damage before getting to him.
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - If Falco recovers from the right side on the first transformation, you seriously need to rethink your choice of playing ROB. It's too easy to gimp him there. No laser camping for Falco on the first transformation due to the small size of the stage and the same goes on the second transformation but because of the dip in the middle. Do -not- bother camping the retreating platforms on the second transformation. It's way too obvious when the time frame for your projectiles are and if the Falco's ballsy enough, you might just get spiked.
Port Town Aero Drive - This normally isn't on the list, but it is one of SBR's "optional counterpicks" so I figured I should put this out there. The lack of ledges means Falco is going to be eating a -lot- of damage while recovering. You'll never fully be able to gimp him here, but it's really hard to gimp a good Falco once they get over 20% anyway so the extra damage is nice. The huge ceiling and far walls play nicely in ROB's favor as well. (I'm talking effing gigantic stage dimensions.) This is my counterpick of choice vs Falcos if it's available.
Ban Options:
Jungle Japes - That's right. We want to ban our camp happy heaven. : ( Falco has such better stage control and camping options than we do here. He doesn't even need to sit back on one of the small platforms. Also, if you get grabbed here, you're getting spiked. It usually doesn't make a difference because at the percents he can do it, you can meteor cancel before the water, but you still have to worry about getting spiked into a clap trap. I'm fairly confident in saying that Falco hard counters ROB here. To this stage I say "It's not worth the trouble."

:fox:Fox:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:gw:Game And Watch:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - The lack of platforms here means that GnW can't combo ROB as well as he can on other stages and the long stage makes poking and running easier for ROB. As an added benefit, though it won't happen often, it's possible for GnW to get caught under the lip of the stage.
Lylat Cruise - The smaller platforms means it's still hard for GnW to capitalize on his platform game. The stage also has the benefit of making his recovery slightly more predictable, but you shouldn't expect a good GnW to get caught under the stage.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
BattleField - This is probably GnW's best Neutral versus ROB. If he catches you in a NAir at lower percents, you can expect to eat 30-40% damage from NAir combos alone. Combine this with the fact that GnW has a much better platform game than ROB and you have a stage you don't want to be on.
Counterpick Options:
Comfort Stage - GnW is one of those characters that like the same things we like in stages, so just pick the stage you're most comfortable on.
Ban Options:
The GnW's Comfort Stage - Again, they tend to like stages we like, so if you know the GnW's likes and dislikes, ban a stage you know they like.

:ganondorf:Ganondorf:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Camp central against a big and slow target. Need I say more?
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Camp central. Needn't say more.
Frigate Orpheon - Lack of a ledge on the first transformation + craptastic recovery = awesome
Rainbow Cruise - Ganon's slow movement means he's going to be chasing the stage a lot. Make sure you're on the other end slowing him down even more with your projectiles. Too easy.
Ban Options:

:popo:Ice Climbers:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - This stage is nice and long. Toss a mid-charged gyro in the middle of the stage and just laser camp. Their approaches are horrible against ROB since they can't do the standard desynched blizzard approach (laser will go through and resynch them) and with a lack of platforms, there's no easy way for them to get iceblocks to you while your gyro-wall is up. It's basically an auto-win on FD.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battle Field - This isn't a make or break stage in this match-up, but it's still just not fun to play against an ICs on. If done right and the ROB is unfamiliar with the match-up, they can go even with us in regards to camping by full hopping ice blocks off the side platforms. This isn't a big issue at all, but I don't like being camped so I always strike this stage. :p
Counterpick Options:
Rainbow Cruise - It's extremely easy to gimp nana on this stage and once Nana's gimped, Popo is too easy to fight against.
Frigate Orpheon - Again with the easy Nana-gimping. Add onto that, there is nothing ICs can do about ROB's infinite Up-Bcamping on the second transition and you're good to go.
Ban Options:
Something that benefits their secondaries - There are very few stages that actually benefit ICs in this match-up and the few that do aren't that bad so long as you get a percent lead. If GreenGreens is legal, you might want to look at banning that, but that's not often legal and it's not that bad for us in this particular match-up as ICs have almost no aerial approaches over the blocks. At the same time, however, I don't know many ICs who play ICs only so you should probably ban something that would greatly benefit on of their alts.

:ike:Ike:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Another slow, easy target that can't do much about it.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - Everything he has goes through platforms, need I say more? : (
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - The lack of a ledge on the first transformation makes it all too easy to gimp Ike. Camping the moving platforms on the second stage is also very, very nice considering Ike can't do anything about it without risking getting gimped all to easily.
Rainbow Cruise - Ike's slow ground, slow air speed, and poor recovery means that this stage is a -great- option vs Ike. He will be constantly trying to keep up with the stage while you're free to just sit at the far end and shoot stuff at him to make it even harder for him to keep up. If he does get to you? Just toss him off the level and start again. It's a vicious cycle for Ike.
Jungle Japes - If you find gimping Ike to be a problem for you, take him to Japes and just camp away.
Ban Options:

:jigglypuff:JigglyPuff:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:dedede:King Dedede:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Easy camping. You just have to make sure to keep yourself between him and the ledge. Don't be afraid to ledge camp here, just don't hang there too long.
Smashville - The short platform means you won't be getting chaingrabbed too much if you do get caught in one.
Yoshi's Island - The shape of the stage messes with D3's chain grab timing a lot. You can also refresh your kill moves off of the Fly-Guys (You'd be amazed how many people forget this.)
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - UTilt, UAir, DAir through platforms. It makes ROBs sad.
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes Great because you just camp all day. If he tries to get close time an edge hug for invincibility on the inside ledge and then BAir him away, repeat. If he predicts it and doesn't attack, ledge drop to the ledge on the middle platform and read, then go back to the other ledge for invincibility and repeat until he puts himself in a bad position. If he decides he's gonna try to DAir you, ledge drop and go to the outside ledge of the small platforms. Too easy.

It gets even better if you're on the right side. **** gets too hot for you? Drop into the water and pop up on the other side. Get to camp again cause there's no way for D3 to make it there quickly other than doing the same thing which puts him in a -horrible- position because you're either gonna **** his recovery or just run back to the right side and camp again.

Playing the stage is the biggest part of this stage. Abuse ledge invincibility and the water. Take any chance you can to get to the right side. That's the side you really want to control. It gives so many more recovery options and escape options. Save your BThrow for kills or you can just save NAir and just wait forever to kill him with that. You shouldn't be getting hit too much so it really shouldn't matter too much how long it takes to kill him.
Norfair - No CG, easy ledge camping and I've seen D3s just Up-B over the lava wave. If they do that, easy monies. Simply airdodge through the lava wave and punish him. Just make sure you always stay below him. Gyro doesn't act as a stage deterrent here, but bouncing it off the lava can create some nice traps. Get creative with it. : )
Frigate Orpheon - Very small platform on the first form so there's virtually no chain grab. Just be careful of the temporary wall. The lack of a ledge on the right side also means punishing his Up-B just got that much easier. The sloping platform on the second transformation does the same thing Yoshi's island does to his chain grab.
Ban Options:
Delfino Plaza - This place is just horrible for us. We do fairly well on the transition platform, but there's just way to many transformations that have a walk off, a wall, both, or multiple of both. It is not a fun stage for ROB at all.
Castle Siege - The first transformation forces us into close combat while the second has a walk off in both direction. The first stage is manageable if you camp under the left-most platform and the second honestly isn't too bad if you stay on the flags and just play keep-away from his UAirs the entire transformation. I would advice destroying the left statue while standing on the right statue's platform and camping there as when he tries to approach from below, you can fly from flag to flag and he won't be able to keep up so long as that left statue isn't there. If you want, you can destroy the right statue as well, but that puts you at more risk while doing so.

:kirby2:Kirby:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Smashville - It's hard to camp Kirby but at the same time he combos ROB well, so what do we do? We take him to the most average sized stage we can. You can still peg him with projectiles here and poke at him a lot. You also have plenty room to try to avoid his combos and if he manages to steal your ability, you're not totally screwed. Kirby can and will out camp ROB on a long stage if he gets the laser. : (
Lylat - The low platforms are great for ROB and Kirby has, literally, one good through platform option: UAir. He's just short enough so that he can't reach through the platforms normally which is nice. You do have to be careful about rock mindgames here because the slanted stage means he can and will slide. Aside from that though, this stage seems pretty nice for ROB in this match-up.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Although Kirby approaches well in the air, it's predictable and can be taken care of quite easily when it's his only option. You also remove a lot of his silly throw combos meaning it's harder for him to rack up damage. Word of warning: DO NOT LET HIM GET THE LASER here. It'll mean that he has the advantage. If he manages to get the laser, hound his *** until you knock it out of him. That's all there is to it. Do not sit back and try to laser him. Do not get off his *** at all. I'm not saying do a stupid rush down obviously, but your top priority is knocking the star out of him when this happens. Aside from that though, the huge boundaries play well in ROB's favor. You can survive his FSmash much, much longer.
Ban Options:
Pictochat - This is one of those counterpicks that aren't seen to often on the list but is once again on SBR's "optional counterpick list." This stage is great for Kirby but not so much for ROB. You know how it looks like there's a bottom to the stage and we should be able to fly under it? Sakurai in his great wisdom decided to add an invisible wall so there will be -no- flying under the stage. There's a high ceiling so freak USmash KOs will be rare and if the Kirby can DI well, they can survive NAir to stupid percents. This would hold true for us too if it weren't for the fact that the walls are really close to the stage and Kirby's FSmash weren't so dang good. Kirby's nimbleness means he can get around the silly transformations much better than you too. Oh yeah, I almost forgot: Kirby's stoneform glitch on the right ledge is ridiculous. Invincibility + a constant strong hitbox? Makes getting back while on that ledge stupid.. :/

:link2:Link:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - We easily out camp him and the ledge makes his recovery even -more- predictable. You're gonna win on this stage unless you just get outplayed very badly.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battle Field - Link has nice platform play when below it and they allow him to poke at our blind spot much more easily. It also allows him to mix up his projectile approaches a lot.
Counterpick Options:
Rainbow Cruise - He can't keep up with the stage and easy gimps.
Norfair - Again with easy gimps on the right side and there is nothing Link can do on the second transformation aside from trying to pelt you with projectiles..which our FAir cancels.
Ban Options:
Norfair - The multiple ledges makes recovering easier, and even if we do manage to gimp him, he has a chance of being saved by the lava. Also, he can bomb camp rather well here. Watch videos of Deva on Norfair if you want to see what I mean.

:lucario:Lucario:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - ROB out camps Lucario and FD has one of the harder walls to wall cling on out of the neutrals. Lucario plays better on platforms than ROB as well and this gets rid of that issue.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Yoshi's Island - A competent Lucario can camp under the platform with FSmashes all day so long as they know how to powershield our projectiles. Combine that with the large wall to aid their recovery and it's just not fun.
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Camp camp camp and screw his recovery with the water. The high ceiling also protects you from UAir KOs and Force Palm KOs with correct DI.
Ban Options:
Delfino - He can punish us in the water better than we can punish him in the water. The pass-through main platform helps his recovery out and the stage transformations will take away a lot of gimp potential.

:lucas:Lucas:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Camping here isn't as effective as it is in most match-ups, but it's still doable. The lack of platforms also limits his approaches and a lot of his little Up-B tricks.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battle Field - The platforms tend to help him out a lot more than they help ROB, especially when it comes to recovery. The platforms also lend themselves to intant PKT2 attacks which will eat your shield or do a good amount of damage if you don't get out of the way in time.
Smashville - The biggest appeal for a Lucas here is the moving platform. This allows them an extra approach against us, DSmash on the moving platform will often shield poke and it is not safe to challenge it from below at all.
Counterpick Options:
Castle Siege - This is one of the few fights I like this stage for. The first transformation is good for gimps as the ledge messes with Lucas' recover forcing them to overshoot most of the time. The second transformation is nice because if you camp just behind a statue, you severely limit a lot of his approaches since most of his approaches are multi-hit, this gives you more time to move and punish. The third transformation is also nice for camping and gimping.
Ban Options:
Norfair - Lucas basically never has to use his gimpable up-b on this stage thanks to the multiple tether points and we can't camp..at all. Lucas can move from platform to platform faster than we can as well and his DSmash pointed inward on the platforms is deadly.

:luigi2:Luigi:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:mario2:Mario:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:marth:Marth:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Yay for camping. The ledge also means he has to recover a certain way and he can't ride the stage at all so his recovery is a bit more predictable.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - This is another case of "ROB gets ***** through the platforms". Between Marth's UTilt, USmash, UAir, and perfectly spaced FSmashes, we're just gonna get gobbled up here. D:
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - First transformation is the usual easy gimps and second transformation is the infinite camping. Pretty standard stuff, just be careful not to get caught off guard when Up-B camping on the second transformation as Marth is capable of coming out at us.
Ban Options:
Norfair - Not many Marths think to take a ROB here but if you know they have the inclination to do so, I'd ban it. Marth is a character that's easily gimpable in the right situations and this stage just completely negates that. That combined with some stupid UAir and FAir strings going up the stair like stage..yeah. It's not too fun.

:metaknight:Meta Knight:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:ness2:Ness:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:olimar:Olimar:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - Olimar's USmash and UAir through platforms hurt. He can also DSmash on the platforms to keep you from doing much more than a UTilt or USmash from down there.
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - You can easily out camp him here, just don't be stupid, knock the pikmen off when they latch.
Frigate Orpheon - The usual reason vs tethers.
Ban Options:

:peach:Peach:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:pt::squirtle::ivysaur::charizard:Pokemon Trainer:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:pikachu2:Pikachu:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:pit:Pit:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:rob:R.O.B.:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Comfort Neutral/Their weakest neutral
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Their comfort neutral/Your weakest Neutral
Counterpick Options:
Anywhere you know they have less experience than you.
Ban Options:
Anywhere you know they have more experience.

:samus2:Samus:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:shiek:Sheik:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:snake:Snake:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Easy camping. FD gimps if the Snake's not careful. No getting UTilted through platforms.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - Snake can easily control the entire stage if you're not careful and he manages to set his explosives. Also, no one likes a UTilt through the platforms. : (
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Easy camping. You can survive UTilts very well here. It also makes it easier to survive FTilts with good DI (corners are higher so you won't be killing yourself by angling up too high)
Rainbow Cruise - So long as you control the right side of the screen while you're moving across the top, you're at a huge advantage. Be careful though, if he controls the right side of the screen, you're going to have to work to not get eaten by blast zones. Be careful of his DThrow on doughnuts.
Ban Options:
Lylat Cruise - He can UTilt through all 3 platforms and it's pretty hard to see his explosives. It's a lot easier to just keep track of them with your peripherals on less flashy stages than it is to actually try and remember where they are on this one.
Brinstar - Low ceiling for UTilts. Lava to prevent gimping (who needs to C4 recover when you have lava?). C4 set on the center bindings will last -forever- and have a slightly extended hitbox. His FSmash on the jelly connectors on either side also last a lot longer and has an extended hitbox.

:sonic:Sonic:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:toonlink:Toon Link:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:wario:Wario:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:wolf:Wolf:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:yoshi2:Yoshi:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Eggs do -not- match up to Gyros and Lasers.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Yoshi's Island - Yoshi has a -lot- of tricks on this stage due to the slanted nature. Watch some videos of Bwett's Yoshi there and it's just ridiculous. Yoshi can move around certain parts so quickly.
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - It's not as great of a CP as it is against a lot of characters, but in my experiences vs Yoshi, this is the stage I've done the best on. The usual reasons too.
Ban Options:

:zelda:Zelda:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - One of the few times you don't want to pick this stage and camp. You pick here because of the lack of platforms and the fact that FD likes to limit her recovery options. Zelda's too easy to gimp (or at least tack on a good bit of damage) if her recovery options are limited in such a way.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - She has a lot better platform options than we do.
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:

:zerosuitsamus:ZSS:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - No ledge on the right side at the beginning. Easy camping on the second transformation.
Port Town Aero Drive - NO LEDGES on the main platform. Sure you can't gimp her due to track, but at parts you can gimp her and the parts you can't, it's free damage and it's easy to read the trajectory of the bounce so you get a free FAir, BAir, or NAir. Yes, most places ban it, but it is considered an "optional counterpick" under SBR rules, so I added it.
Ban Options:


Defragmentation Log:

07/19/08
- First Defragmentation completed.
- All characters added.
- Fragmented files found under: Meta Knight, Peach, Pit, Samus, Shiek, Sonic, ZSS

10/08/08
-Second Defragmentation completed.
-Added a section for stage selection.

10/09/08
-Third Defragmentation completed.
-Donkey Kong's stage section updated (Preferred Neutral, Neutral to Avoid, and Counterpick)
-Falco's stage section updated (All sections)
-Ganondorf's stage section updated (Counterpick)
-Ike's stage section updated (Counterpick)
-Kirby's stage section updated (Preferred Neutral, Counterpick, Ban Options)
-Marth's stage section updated (Neutral to Avoid and Ban Options)

11/6/08
-Minor Update to D3's Counterpick section.

2/17/09
-Fourth Defragmentation completed.
-Sonic's Options based on Percentage updated
-Game And Watch's stage section updated (All)
-Ice Climbers' stage selection updated (All)
-King Dedede's stage selection updated (Ban Options)
-Link's stage selection updated (All)
-Lucario's stage selection updated (All)
-Lucas' stage selection updated (All)
-Marth's stage selection updated (Counterpick Options)
 

Sudai

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I've never played as ZSS against a good ROB or vice versa, sadly. If I sat down and really thought about it, I'm sure I could figure it out. I guess I could do that later tonight after I finish this *** load of Chem Homework. x.x
 

JCaesar

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I played Snakeee a good bit like a month ago so I might be able to add to the ZSS matchup if I sat down and thought about it.

For Metaknight though, it should be "Change characters" all the way across :ohwell:
 

JJR.O.B.

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I played Snakeee a good bit like a month ago so I might be able to add to the ZSS matchup if I sat down and thought about it.
Wow I was confused for a second, thinking you played a lot of snakes and that helped you with the ZSS matchup, but now I realize Snakeee is a ZSS player.

I agree, you need to put 'change character' across MK's matchup.
 

DRaGZ

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I could be wrong, but Samus is best handled camped and poked for the majority of the game. She's just too **** floaty to combo properly, and her up+b can get her out of anything.

Also, how do we not have anything for Metaknight? Shouldn't it also be combo, then camp/poke until 100% then kill?

Also, I sort of think Sonic is a camp/combo sort of guy. A good Sonic makes it very hard to approach because he's so fast, so it's best to just let him come to you. Once you find an opening, you can combo the heck out of him (although I'm not exactly sure when the comboing shoul really stop and the straight-up camp/poke begins).

Sheik can be comboed like crazy for a while, I think you can skip the whole "camp and poke" phase and just go straight from combos to kill.

I have no idea for Peach. I generally just camp and poke like a madman, but I don't have enough experience with really good Peaches to speak of a very specific strategy.

I generally camp/ledgecamp Pits the entire game because I get tired of their arrow BS.

And for ZSS...I just like to camp and poke her the whole game and then patiently wait for a kill. considering her range and massive hitstun potential makes it somewhat troublesome to get in close.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, with harsh prejudice. It'd be better I know that I'm doing it wrong by you guys rather than figure it out the hard way in a game.
 

Sudai

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I could be wrong, but Samus is best handled camped and poked for the majority of the game. She's just too **** floaty to combo properly, and her up+b can get her out of anything.
Camping her I can see, I don't think poking would work at all though. ZAirs keep you from being able to space yourself properly. The main reason I haven't put anything in for her is because I'm not sure when we can start going for the kill. I haven't fought her enough to know that, but I have fought her enough to know that ZAirs > our zoning.

Also, how do we not have anything for Metaknight? Shouldn't it also be combo, then camp/poke until 100% then kill?
I doubt it's possible for us to combo a competent MK at all if they know the match-up. Also, camping doesn't work on MK, nor does poking..soo..basically I'm leaning to the "Change Characters" option here. :/ At best I can fill in the blanks with "Mindgames, son" up to 120% and kill after that.

Also, I sort of think Sonic is a camp/combo sort of guy. A good Sonic makes it very hard to approach because he's so fast, so it's best to just let him come to you. Once you find an opening, you can combo the heck out of him (although I'm not exactly sure when the comboing shoul really stop and the straight-up camp/poke begins).
I was personally thinking he'd be one of those camp/ledge camp characters but I didn't wanna put anything concrete in. I'm really hoping for someone who plays against these obtuse characters on a frequent basis to come and chime in. XD

Sheik can be comboed like crazy for a while, I think you can skip the whole "camp and poke" phase and just go straight from combos to kill.
The question isn't what is possible, it's what the best option is. I haven't fought many Shieks, but her agility and easy FTilt rack > UTilt combo makes me hesitant to believe comboing her would be the best option anywhere past 30%. I might be wrong though? I'm gonna say we need more data for either side.

I generally camp/ledgecamp Pits the entire game because I get tired of their arrow BS.
That's silly..if you don't like their spam, then get in their face. Good reflector usage > our spam. Curving arrows > ledge camping. I've been leaning towards poking for the majority of this match-up, but I don't get the chance to play good Pits so I'm just going with data on paper, but if you could give a better description of why your ideas work, I'd be more than happy. :o

And for ZSS...I just like to camp and poke her the whole game and then patiently wait for a kill. considering her range and massive hitstun potential makes it somewhat troublesome to get in close.
I'm about to go on my breakdown of what I think would and wouldn't work on ZSS. I think you have the idea of poking wrong though. Poking is basically zoning, I just don't like the term zoning. XD If you did have the right interpretation of the term, then you contradict yourself. Have to be close to poke and you agree with me that being close is bad. :p

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, with harsh prejudice. It'd be better I know that I'm doing it wrong by you guys rather than figure it out the hard way in a game.
Gladly~ I am Sudai, the master of brutal honesty after all.


As for my breakdown on ZSS:

-We out range her everywhere except for on the horizontal. Her Plasma Whip (Side-B) out ranges every close range move we have and has decent damage and knock back to boot. Zoning = out.

-She has an awesome dash attack for picking up items and her aerials are also good for this if they're on a platform. She also has a glide-toss that's almost as good as ours. Keeping a Gyro is now a bad idea which means camping just got nerfed because you have to be more careful with your gyro than normal.

-The above point brings me to my biggest point. She has four options against ledge camping: DSmash, Plasma Whip, BAir, and Flip-Kick (Down-b). You may wonder what this has to do with the gyro? Slap that gyro down at or around her plasma whip range. (You might have to mess around with shooting the gyro just as you pass the ledge to get it the right distance, but you guys can already do that, right?" This means she either loses her plasma whip option and goes around the gyro or she picks up the gyro. Now, if she dash-attacks the gyro, you get a free FAir, NAir, or UAir depending on where the gyro was and how good their spacing is. Also, they now have to use tricks if they want to maintain control of the gyro and DSmash meaning they virtually have less options. Down-B really shouldn't be an option for her, no idea why I threw that in.

Basically what I'm getting at, intelligent ledge camping seems like the best option against her.
 

JCaesar

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Sheik (I play ok ones frequently, several different styles) is a little different in the way the tactics should work on ROB's side... instead of changing your style based on Sheik's %, you should change your style based on ROB's %.

When ROB is <60%, camp/ledgecamp/play keep-away, because Sheik is a combo machine and the first time you get close to her, you're gonna end up at 60% or so. Stay away from her ftilt!

>60%, chase her, combo her, poke her, then kill her. When ROB is >60%, Sheik is no longer dangerous. She can't combo you (as well), she can't gimp you, and she can't kill you till at least 150% if you're smart (and have good DI). Just don't get usmashed, baired, or up-Bed and you can't die.
 

Sudai

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I use my ROB against MKs. I've been working on Wario for my MK fight. I thought about using ZSS to fight MK, but I really don't think it'd go over too well. The low hitstun of the moves she uses to chain means eating a lot of DAirs. Basically, I think ZSS has a worse time against MK than ROB.
 

DRaGZ

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By poking, I mean, getting in just enough for a small attack, then backing away. Like...poking. >_>

Also, I should've been more specific, I ledgecamp Pits when I am at higher percents because I have gotten tired of their arrow crap by then. The arrows can really kill me, and generally I try to time the invincibility frames so I don't get hit often, so it forces them to approach, which gives me plenty of f-airing and lasering gimp options.

Also, I mean, you can't really sit in a corner to camp Metaknight, but you can stay on one side to fire off a few projectiles before running away again. Plus, he's comboable in the early percents, at least two f-airs a few times is easily possible.

EDIT: I realized I wrote in 'the entire game' when I spoke of Pit in the earlier post. lol.
 

Snakeee

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ROB does not outrange ZSS at all really. Her d-smash outranges his F-TILT. The only time ROB has the advantage in this match up is at really far away range. ZSS has a heavy advantage at any other time.
Also, ZSS does fine against Meta.
 

Sudai

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Also, I should've been more specific, I ledgecamp Pits when I am at higher percents because I have gotten tired of their arrow crap by then. The arrows can really kill me, and generally I try to time the invincibility frames so I don't get hit often, so it forces them to approach, which gives me plenty of f-airing and lasering gimp options.
I see, so it's just a preference thing.

Also, I mean, you can't really sit in a corner to camp Metaknight, but you can stay on one side to fire off a few projectiles before running away again. Plus, he's comboable in the early percents, at least two f-airs a few times is easily possible.
Can't really run away from MK either though. You're assuming you'll be able to break away. At best you can get a few retreating projectiles. A good MK won't let you be out of his range for more than a laser or gyro shot though. (I'm not talking in face constantly, but close enough to punish a laser or gyro)

ROB does not outrange ZSS at all really. Her d-smash outranges his F-TILT. The only time ROB has the advantage in this match up is at really far away range. ZSS has a heavy advantage at any other time.
As said before, all my stuff on the ZSS match-up is just conjuncture as I've never played the match-up vs a good opponent using either. Even more reason to support my ledge camping theory, though. Thanks Snakeee~ :D

Also, ZSS does fine against Meta.
I'll take your word for it. Doesn't change the fact that I'm more comfortable using ROB or Wario, though.
 

DRaGZ

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That's why I like camping and poking against Metaknight (my definition of poking). Knock him away, laser/gyro, run, repeat. It may be because I haven't fought a MetaKnight I couldn't beat at a tourny yet (maybe I'm only fighting scrubs), but it works well enough. But you have to pretty much play flawlessly to avoid getting punished like crazy.

Also, can't ZSS just d-smash a ledgecamping R.O.B. from a safe distance? It's relatively fast, plus if you try to jump to reset invincibility, the huge hitbox of the paralyzer will get ya.
 

Sudai

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That's why I like camping and poking against Metaknight (my definition of poking). Knock him away, laser/gyro, run, repeat. It may be because I haven't fought a MetaKnight I couldn't beat at a tourny yet (maybe I'm only fighting scrubs), but it works well enough. But you have to pretty much play flawlessly to avoid getting punished like crazy.
You probably just haven't met one that knows how to use his move set properly yet, then. I could be wrong though? Got any videos to support this tact working? (You or any other ROBs doing this against good MKs recently [recently being past month or two])

Also, can't ZSS just d-smash a ledgecamping R.O.B. from a safe distance? It's relatively fast, plus if you try to jump to reset invincibility, the huge hitbox of the paralyzer will get ya.
The well placed gyro is there to prevent that. Either they go around it which gives you time to punish or they pick it up which also gives you time to punish.

Once again, though, my thoughts are just conjuncture to get things moving. Until I meet a good ZSS player and get to test all this or someone else from the ROB boards test it, I'm not gonna add it to the list.
 

stingers

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I've played a good ZSS player!

Tips:

Just throw her armor pieces off the stage. Save one maybe, but they hurt you more then they hurt the ZSS 80% of the time.

Camping works...well. Yeah, not much she can do. It's hard to outrange her, but you kick her *** in the air (what else is new). If you approach, do it with projectiles and fairs.

Sidestep -> dsmash ***** ZSS (they like to approach with dash attack, since they can chain it into their neutral A)

not that hard to gimp. one laser off the stage during their jump = they're basically dead meat. bthrow is a good setup move for gimps against ZSS

watch out for her neutral B paralyzer gay gun thing, since ZSS can usually get you with a dash attack before you break out if you're hit. if you're not in range to approach with an fair, get back and projectile until they approach you.
 

DRaGZ

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I've been screwed by the d-smash on the ledge by ZSS before, though. I mean, they want you to ledgecamp, or at least the ones I've played, so that they can do the b-air stage spike.

I prefer to stay on the stage and approach when necessary. Otherwise, I'll camp on level ground, thank you.

Also, I have no videos of me doing anything anywhere. I shall go search for some.

EDIT: Okay, here's a pretty classic video of Maxx vs. DSF.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1FfZjmnSFkk

Specifically around 3:48. See, poke away, back off, laser, then attempt to run away (although he got caught by the shuttle loop. That is basically how I approach MK, although I do it way more conservatively than Maxx was there. And I know that DSF isn't the greatest of MKs, but I'll use this example for now.
 

Mr.E

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I use my ROB against MKs. I've been working on Wario for my MK fight. I thought about using ZSS to fight MK, but I really don't think it'd go over too well. The low hitstun of the moves she uses to chain means eating a lot of DAirs. Basically, I think ZSS has a worse time against MK than ROB.
That, and being a primarily tether recovery character means she gets gimped for free by repeated DAirs. She can chain grab-release him, at least. *shrug*

Get her *** off the ledge, throw gyro down to catch tether recovery, rinse and repeat?
 

Snakeee

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Forget about the b-air spike. ZSS can D-smash - Down B spike ROB very easily if you're not absolutely careful...actually there is no way for ROB to return to the stage without getting hit against me unless he recovered really high and got really lucky in me not hitting him while he was airborne.

Some of the better ROB players that realize this always go for the ledge hop F-air, in which case I shield it and up air them out of shield as a combo starter. There is little escape from ZSS' edgeguarding with ROB. It's also very easy for her to forward B him while off the stage
 

TechnoMonster

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ZSS is actually a really interesting matchup. You may not outrange her, but your downtilt and forward tilts are certainly faster than anything she has. Really the main situation where you have an advantage is when she is either in the air above you (think Sonic) or when she's off the stage (think Diddy Kong without an up-B). Generally with good laser and f-air work you can do a solid 20% every time you throw her off and often get gimps. So uhh... juggle/edgeguard? juggle/gimp?

On the stage it's more a matter of effectively using your dodges to put her in a bad spot without becoming predictable. You can roll through a side B and punish with a F-tilt, d-smash, or grab or other fast stuff depending on your range, anything else you can either shield d-smash, spot dodge d-smash or just laser her in the face, just gotta watch out for that dashgrab.
 

Snakeee

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Diddy Kong without an Up-B o_O
...um, yeah ZSS' recovery is far better than Diddy Kong's (with an Up-B. >_>)

The only times you can ever really gimp her is with a strong spike to edgehog, or if she's sent off the stage without any jumps (something the better zss players avoid most of the time). It's highly unlikely to pull any gimp off on her.

Yeah, in f-tilt range you have the advantage because of it's speed.. But at very close range, ZSS' jab is faster than anything (1 frame). This is very useful when I anticipate ROB's d-smash. If I see a spot dodge, then I can just start holding A and he will be hit.

Thanks for vouching for me JCaesar. See you at C3.
 

JCaesar

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I definitely wanna get some more practice with you next time you're in the area. ZSS is a weird matchup.
 

Crizthakidd

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i can beat scrub to good mks but not REAL good insane ones but wtf do you do once u vs Mrgayandwatch. they always switch to him once they loose. its crazy i cant use snake like i used to to pwn GnWs either
 

Sudai

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Game And Watch:.........Combo...........- Poke...........- Poke..........- Kill..........- Kill

Fairly straight forward. XD

Never resort to camping. Learn to SDI the BAir up and through. You'll always be able to land a FAir or BAir (depending on if you get turned around or not) so long as you SDI through it fast enough. This is a -great- trade off for ROB considering at worst you do an even amount of damage and GnW is hella light. Talking lighter than MK here.

I used to think the match-up was ******** hard, but I played the best GnW in Dallas for, quite literally, 3 hours straight. The things that used to be a big problem? ROB actually has answers for them.

-BAir? SDI through and UP > FAir/BAir
-DThrow? Tech > Buffer DSmash. The only thing they can do that beats this is run away > BAir.
-Killing? Just save your UThrow and NAir. You now have a great aerial option and a great grounded option. UThrow kills him around 150% with perfect DI. It's great.
-Camping? Don't need it. Just be awesome with your zoning.
-Recovery? Ok, we still can't gimp him and he does pretty ****ed good at keeping us in the air preventing us from recharging. He also does well once we're on the ledge, so it's either eat a bunch of UAirs and let them recharge all their moves or get poke by chairs and manholes. This is the one spot where I couldn't find a somewhat decent answer. D:
-I really should be posting this stuff in Dragz's thread, huh? *copypasta+add more stuff*
 

Mr.E

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Sheesh, this place logs you out every two minutes or so...

Aside SDIing through the turtle being a recent discovery, that's basically just restating how to play ROB against everyone. ;( Strong spacing, don't stale your NAir at killing percentages, blah blah blah. The whole G&W edgeguarding ROB like a mofo is the biggest problem with the matchup and with no solution to that, nothing's really changed. *shrug* Going high doesn't work at all because of his Up-B and UAir, all I can suggest is plow through his *** (or forcing him out of the way) with an NAir to get back on-stage. Staling your NAir once is worth minimizing the risk of taking more damage in return or even ran-out-of-fuel gimps.

Sudai, you sure G&W's DTilt or Jab (Greenhouse) won't beat trying to buffer ROB's DSmash out of a DThrow tech? I suppose that's pretty darned cool if it works.
 

Sudai

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The GDubbz I was playing was buffering jabs and it wasn't fast enough.

Also, I know I'm not revolutionizing the GDubbz match-up or anything, I was just pointing out some things that are pretty specific to the match-up.
 

Crizthakidd

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i practiced sdi outa the turtle into bair and it was mad nice for a while.

i also gota stop being stupid about getting hit by dair. what do u do against an agressive combo happy GnW. like he uses bair into nair into up b into fair. i have to start poking and the match goes pretty slow from then on.

also the GnW is good so he caught on and started fast falling > retreating bairs which make it like 2x harder to punish
 

JCaesar

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Nice, this seems like it'll be a very handy little reference tool. I think it's safe to add Norfair to the ban options for any character with a tether or generally linear/****ty recovery. ROB hates gimpless stages.
 

Sudai

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Another big updated. Nothing really new, just a lot of stage options updated.

I'm fairly sure I have all the tethers listed as Frigate CP already, but I completely forgot to ban Norfair vs them. When I was writing up this version, I knew to do it for Marth, but for some reason the tethers slipped my mind. XD

I'll make sure to hit that in the next update.
 

JCaesar

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You spelled Norfair wrong in the Marth section. You spelled it F-R-I-G-A-T-E. :p
 

Sudai

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Well..that I did, didn't I? At least I wrote the notes on the right stage. XD *edits*

Thanks for the catch. Spellcheck only works when my mistake isn't actually the right way to spell something else. XD
 
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