The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

EDIT: The Show Me Your News team just recently recorded a podcast with various SBR members in the style of a debate. The issue we were debating was, of course, whether or not to ban MK. Here is a temporary download link to the podcast: http://smyn.smashnexus.net/download.php?id=45 . I encourage everyone who has been debating in this thread, or wants to learn more about the issue, to listen to this podcast. It could definitely change what you think about MK. I'll be remaking the public poll on banning MK whenever we get the permanent download link up. I'm interested to see what people will think about this issue after listening to it. Show it to all of your friends too, so we can get people as educated as possible before voting on it again.


Let me just say that I'm rather neutral in this debate. I think that MK is pretty broken right now, but I just believe we should definitely wait longer to explore other possible ways of beating him before taking any action. Also, yes, we are talking about this subject in the SBR, but no worries. Once banning MK becomes an actual possibility, we'll issue a warning to the boards (so MK mains will have time to see it coming) and we'll begin serious discussion, debate, and analysis of the metagame. To start this thread off, I figured I might as well share something I posted in the SBR regarding this subject. Keep in mind this is just my own words and opinions, AND THIS IS ONLY ABOUT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF THE METAGAME. I don't care if you can beat your buddy's MK with Captain Falcon. That isn't what this is about. But anyways, here is the post:




"Well, one of the biggest problems with MK is just that he doesn't really have any even matchups or bad stages. He can't be counterpicked per se (with the possible exception of Diddy on FD, but I don't think Diddy can handle MK on many other stages).

Let me make a scenario for you to illustrate the biggest problem with MK so far. Lets say I use Mario in tournaments. Mario has a nearly unwinnable matchup against MK (or so I hear), so I need to use a secondary to take care of MK. But who do I pick up? Snake? No, MKs have learned how to beat all but the best Snakes out there. G&W? No, he still doesn't do great against MK. DDD, Falco, ROB? Nope, one of their worst matchups is MK right now. So I have to pick the one and only character that can handle MK: MK himself. Then I begin playing with MK so I can be good enough with him to make him my second... and I start to notice that I'm winning matches much more easily. I realize that no counterpick, be it a stage or a character, is bad for me because I can just switch to MK. I begin to rely on MK more and more whenever I feel pressured, so I start to pick him in the first game too, just to be safe. And that's when I discover that my MK, a character I only recently picked up, is better than my Mario in every possible situation. Soon I just stop playing Mario altogether because it is so much simpler and more effective to just play MK.

But lets assume there is no MK anymore, and Snake is the second best. Mario has a pretty tough matchup against Snake, so I have to pick up a secondary to beat him. Who do I pick up? Well, I have my choice from DDD, ROB, Falco, Pikachu, etc. There are quite a few characters I can choose from that do well, or even have an advantage against him (those characters above are actually hard counters). But each of those counterpick characters have their own inherent problems, bad matchups, and what not, so I can't really rely on them whenever I feel pressured against a character that goes even or has an advantage against them. In the end, I continue with Mario as my main and I use my second for Mario's difficult matchups but not much else. You know, what a second is supposed to be for.


Thats the biggest reason people are calling for MK's ban. In theory (and its actually happening currently), everyone will eventually switch to MK because they all need some sort of answer against him. And the worst part about this is that its like a virus. As soon as one good MK appears to tear up the competition in his region, a few people will realize that they need an answer to MK. So they pick up MK. Then because they pick up MK, more people need an answer to MK. So they pick up MK. Unfortunately, this isn't theorycraft or anything, since it has happened in several regions already and is becoming much more prevalent. Many high-level players have picked up MK in an effort to get him banned, and even tons of high-level MK players admit that MK should probably get banned. Of course, a big problem to this is the mindset people get into; matchups aren't set in stone, especially this early in the game, which is why I feel taking action now is much too soon. But one way or another, I can honestly see MK getting banned in a few months if a counter or two is not found soon."

The extent of MK's advantages are what matter more, not just the fact he can't be counterpicked hard.

MK doesn't hit very hard, the characters he does hit very hard tend to be lower on the tierlist.
Even if I choose say DDD, and the matchup is 60:40 in my opponents favor, this by no means is bad.

All it means is that I have a 40% chance of winning. That is barely even considered a soft counter.

This is a similar issue in GG. Baiken has a larger number of 60:40 matchups against her than Eddie who is the complete opposite.

Does this mean that a character like Eddie who has no counters should be banned. No.
The extent to which he hits other characters isn't major enough.

A character having 60:40 matchups across the board doesn't warrant a bad.

support banning mk all the way

Can you explicate more kyanite?

well, as a falcon main, i have trouble against most characters on the tier list
but all of them except mk r still possible to defeat
and that's my reason

I dunno...a complete and utter ban of MK seems severe even though he practically has the advantage against a large percentage of the cast.

Would it be logical if MK isn't banned but instead is limited to either being allowed for use in only one match of a set or perhaps is only allowed as a counter-pick choice so that while he is allowed nobody is able to just use him.

I mean if your oppponent uses MK but you manage to beat it in a best of three then he won't be allowed to use MK for the other matches...is that unrealistic or does it not solve the main problem?

I think MK should certaintly be banned, and I can't think of any better reasons than Samurai's.

epic of DE said:

I dunno...a complete and utter ban of MK seems severe even though he practically has the advantage against a large percentage of the cast.

Would it be logical if MK isn't banned but instead is limited to either being allowed for use in only one match of a set or perhaps is only allowed as a counter-pick choice so that while he is allowed nobody is able to just use him.

I mean if your oppponent uses MK but you manage to beat it in a best of three then he won't be allowed to use MK for the other matches...is that unrealistic or does it not solve the main problem?

Click to expand...

Then everyone would still HAVE to learn MK to get that one round advantage. It is a nice idea though, because its not a wasted character slot and all the MK players get to keep using MK.

ShadowLink84 said:

The extent of MK's advantages are what matter more, not just the fact he can't be counterpicked hard.

MK doesn't hit very hard, the characters he does hit very hard...

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lol-wut? Isn't him not hitting hard enough the reason he can chain attacks together so fluidly?

I think that MK is pretty broken right now, but I just believe we should definitely wait longer to explore other possible ways of beating him before taking any action.

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Yeah, so they could then build up counter strategies, since Meta Knight can do pretty much anything any other character can do, except suck and die.

I'll probably post something more intelligent later...

Puffball64 said:

lol-wut? Isn't him not hitting hard enough the reason he can chain attacks together so fluidly?

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Clearly I was talking about matchups, not combat ability. -_-;

Puffball64 said:

Yeah, so they could then build up counter strategies, since Meta Knight can do pretty much anything any other character can do, except suck and die.

I'll probably post something more intelligent later...

Click to expand...

you use Sonic.
you lose.
You CP Diddy and FD.
Opponent loses.
Opponent CP's a stage.
You switch your character so the match is neutral.
You win.


Even if the matchup is 60:40 for MK the match is by no means winnable since the wall t overcome is not as large.

At work at the moment, so I'm going to attempt to squeeze everything I can into this post in the shortest amount of time. I want to make sure everyone realizes that I'm not going to be talking about your average day Meta knight that wins at the local game tournament. Most of you have never played a good Meta knight, much less a great one. I'm talking about the top elite Meta Knight play, which is beginning to spread and disperse down the chain. Want an example? Watch Dojo.

At the highest level of play, assuming the right choice is picked at all times for a character, Meta Knight is going to win. Why? With his approaches he can auto-cancel into near lagless Smashes. You cannot Shield Grab a smart Meta Knight. The seemingly normal reactions to counter attacks do not work against Meta knight. Power Shielding? Ha, by the time you get your input frame Meta Knight already has a second attack buffered.

Meta Knight is a character of reflexes. As long as the player is pushing him to this extent [which is what we are now seeing in tournaments] the only answer to him becomes another character of reflex because conventional means of dealing with the character do not work. Punishing a great Meta knight is a delusion that is left for sweet dreams at night. The intuitive reactions that are trained to work against everyone else in the game do not, and will not work on a Professional level Meta knight. Gone are the days when Meta Knights didn't realize how to auto-cancel their aerials directly into a Smash, D-Tilt, or even a grab. The issue is the vast number of inputs of high priority that Meta Knight is able to do during the course of a match/exchange. No other character comes close, not even honorable mention. The window of opportunity to even -stop- one of Meta knights approaches is slim, at best since most moves that can even -tie- against him, have considerable lag. The pressure that Meta Knights are applying to their opponents is unparalleled, and the entire cast is left with no means to cope.

Playing against Meta knight is an exercise in futility. The best have learned an offstage game that destroys everything. Due to Meta knights lack of cool down, they are able to punish any recovery and juggle off the stage ruthlessly with little to no risk. There is no character that can match this, retaliate to this, or survive this.

Meta Knight is going to see a ban, if not the scene is going to become a matter of who can stomach to play
Meta Knight dittos every match. Attendance will suffer for tournaments, and in the end, we'll move on to other games. The goal of this community is to foster the development of a competitive scene for Brawl. The only answer to this situation is clear.

PS: Most match up threads are out of date now vs Meta Knight. I wouldn't quote them or even mention them.

Wikipedia said:

"The Slippery Slope as fallacy"

The heart of the slippery slope fallacy lies in abusing the intuitively appreciable transitivity of implication, claiming that A lead to B, B leads to C, C leads to D and so on, until one finally claims that A leads to Z. While this is formally valid when the premises are taken as a given, each of those contingencies needs to be factually established before the relevant conclusion can be drawn. Slippery slopes occur when this is not done -- an argument that supports the relevant premises is not fallacious and thus isn't a slippery slope in technical definition of the term.

Often proponents of a "slippery slope" contention propose a long series of intermediate events as the mechanism of connection leading from A to B. The "camel's nose" provides one example of this: once a camel has managed to place its nose within a tent, the rest of the camel will inevitably follow. In this sense the slippery slope resembles the genetic fallacy, but in reverse.

As an example of how an appealing slippery slope argument can be unsound, suppose that whenever a tree falls down, it has a 95% chance of knocking over another tree. We might conclude that soon a great many trees would fall, but this is not the case. There is a 5% chance that no more trees will fall, a 4.75% chance that exactly one more tree will fall (and thus a 9.75% chance of 1 or less additional trees falling), and so on. There is a 92.3% chance that 50 or fewer additional trees will fall. The expected value of trees that will fall is 20. In the absence of some momentum factor that makes later trees more likely to fall than earlier ones, this "domino effect" approaches zero probability.

This form of argument often provides evaluative judgments on social change: once an exception is made to some rule, nothing will hold back further, more egregious exceptions to that rule.

Note that these arguments may indeed have validity, but they require some independent justification of the connection between their terms: otherwise the argument (as a logical tool) remains fallacious.

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TL;DR version: Banning MK doesn't in any way lead to the conclusion that we'll all be forced to main Captain Falcon as the only still-legit character in half a year. Cool and manly as though it would be. Just wanted to get this out of the way so there can actually be some interesting discussion in this thread instead of it derailing to a ton of slippery slopes and the inevitable refutation of said arguments, on and on until we're all so old the only way we'll be able to continue smashing is through the aid of nurses pressing the buttons for us while we gag and choke on old-people pills in pretty colours and dote upon our grandchildren.

Between Wrexsoul and myself, we've pretty much summed up the entire debate/reality. Not just Too good. Meta Knight Good.

Meta Knight is my favorite character, but he's gonna eventually have to be banned. I don't really see a way around it. As a competitive game, I think Brawl would be better without MK.

Yes, I think you have. I wonder if MK mainers will still try to debate it. But then what kind of ban should he have? A ban like someone said earlier, or a typical No-MK ban?

grandmaster192 said:

Meta Knight is my favorite character, but he's gonna eventually have to be banned. I don't really see a way around it. As a competitive game, I think Brawl would be better without MK.

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Thats a really good attitude I wish more people were like that.

brinboy789 said:

posting so some haters will stfu

Cons

* Light Weight
* Slow aerial movement
* Weak attacks in general
* No projectiles
(taken out of t!Mmys guide)
also:
~all b moves when used cannot recover until you hit the ground.
~main moves, dsmash + tornado get weakened FAST
Bad matchups:
~ Dk
~ Diddy
~ Lucario
~ Pikachu
~ Game and watch
(not mentioning neutral
yes, MK has more good matchups then bad and more pros then cons BUT so did melee fox why didnt he get banned

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oh and 'all you have to do to counter the tornado is shield'



That was such a silly thread.

Ran Iji said:

Not just Too good. Meta Knight Good.

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That's...yeah...I honestly agree with what the two of you said. Eventually brawl tournies will break down into MK dittos with a few other characters that either have incredible projectile options or have the ability to chain-grab practically all characters.

I just want it to be that MK is limited only to the point that you can use him, but when you plan to use him is very important as other characters would be used more and hopefully as a result the less used character's Meta-game will develop.

Yeah I'm a Falcon main and no I don't expect Falcon to be great tournie choice but besides the exception of MK I can fight Snake, DDD, Falco, and ROB with at least some percentage chance of winning if I am careful and don't make punishable mistakes.

MK though...that is an act of futility to play no matter who you use.

grandmaster192 said:

Meta Knight is my favorite character, but he's gonna eventually have to be banned. I don't really see a way around it. As a competitive game, I think Brawl would be better without MK.

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totally agree with the "brawl would be better without MK"

I would wait until the game has progressed a little bit more before you decide to make any radical decisions related to MK. I think the that the best solution would be a temporary ban (maybe like 3-4 months). This would allow other characters metagame to catch up because nobody would be using MK. MK is broken but I'm tired of hearing all these whiners complain about it. There are a few characters that go even with MK, like 50:50 or 55:45 in MK's favor.

Nice to know that my reasoning is holding, namely tournament diversity.


Still, I'm sticking to my overall guns, even given months, it's far too soon to know if the match-ups will hold in the long term. If we ban him before the metagame is truly mature, then we make it near impossible to ever find counters for him.


So no, just no. A couple of months is WAY too little time for the metagame to be considered mature.

Theory Bros, Theory Bros, Theory Bros...

In the end, isn't it up to TO's to decide what's banned and what's not? Many tournaments break the official SBR suggested stage selection rules all the time. Then again, I guess that's because they're more flexible.

Right now, any sensible TO is not gonna ban MK.

Unless the SBR or MLG or whatever states"we officially ban Metaknight," then I guess everyone will follow in a gross appeal to authority.

It seems like HOBO 11 is really gonna be a deciding factor in this debate.

But I don't know... this whole banning MK thing has been a minority issue to me, making overblown threads and spewing "ban MK" everywhere, and the trend is really catching on. People have forgotton the bottom line that you have to figure out how to beat characters. There's no more optimism. Call me blind... but heck, I'm always still finding out ways to beat Metaknight. MK mains out there, play my Ice Climbers in tournament.

"I don't care if you can beat your buddy's MK with Captain Falcon." Well, I'd still believe a claim like that and let it influence me if it was said by a great player. Maybe not Falcon, but if they said Pikachu or Lucario or G&W, I'll believe them!

I acknowledge that Metaknight is the best character... but are we seriously going to believe that there is no possible way to counter him? Seriously, there's not enough proof yet. Just not enough. Let's try to be creative guys.

Ice Climbers on smashville are so freaking good on Metaknight. Two words: Fly Amanita (heck, are we allowed to reference players in this debate? If Theory Bros rules that out, I don't wanna take part in this debate.)
Tether characters on Norfair are great on him too because they can actually outspeed him.
Falco and Wario metagames haven't been perfected yet.

I'm not gonna rule anything out. Metaknights can still be beaten.

The main argument that Panda presented is that there's no way to counter pick him except by dittoing him. I simply don't believe that yet. I think people are just giving up. There's a fine line between Metaknight truly being broken... and people just giving up. I don't think we crossed that line yet.

Make it so MK's still a viable tourney character but make it so he has to start with 1 less stock. Or force MK users to use the wii remote.

Samuelson said:

I would wait until the game has progressed a little bit more before you decide to make any radical decisions related to MK. I think the that the best solution would be a temporary ban (maybe like 3-4 months). This would allow other characters metagame to catch up because nobody would be using MK. MK is broken but I'm tired of hearing all these whiners complain about it. There are a few characters that go even with MK, like 50:50 or 55:45 in MK's favor.

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What even match ups? Most the time it's just the MK player not knowing what he's doing, or the other play is just way better than the MK. MK has the advantage against every character... And if they start CP'ing gay stages like Rainbow Cruise, the characters that are suspose to have a decent match up with him don't stand a chance.

I also think it's kinda crazy that MK has more tourney wins than the next 6 highest ranked characters combined have, lol.

choknater said:

There's a fine line between Metaknight truly being broken... and people just giving up. I don't think we crossed that line yet.

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Quoted for truth.



The game hasn't even been out long enough for it to be anything but giving up truthfully. There's FAR too great a possibility of new discoveries overturning EVERYTHING we know about the match-ups.

*eyes Yoshi's recent change to neutral with MK*

Sure, MK still has a slight advantage, but in a very short time, that match-up changed drastically, because of a new discovery. How do we know this won't happen again?

As time goes on and the metagame matures, we can eventually be pretty sure that we've discovered anything that can totally overturn the metagame (which was why the Old Sagat ban in Super Turbo in Japan was reasonable, the metagame was mature enough to be basically sure of what his effects were on the metagame). But that time is not here yet, and a few short months will not make that difference.



On a side note: Anyone notice that the anti-MK crowd seems to have far better reasoning this time around? That does seem to be an indication that he IS getting better, and unless a drastic change occurs, he will EVENTUALLY be banned.

However, if it's just a question of people giving up, isn't that the same? If playing Meta Knight is completely demoralizing and reduces an individuals drive to play the game on top of all the other clear advantages that he has, isn't that -wrong?- Isn't that counter productive to a competitive atmosphere? If the answer to beating a character is to be the character or to win via a small list of circumstances, then why even bother?

People won't ban Meta Knight unless it's national. Why? They don't want to see their best Meta Knights lose their edge when they go to large tournaments, and they don't want to lose out on whatever sparse knowledge of how to defeat him is developed.

Emotion and "demoralization" is not a legitimate excuse for not trying to figure out Metaknight.

People have already stopped going to tournaments and playing Brawl due to the joke that Meta Knight has become. Discount emotions all you wish, but it is demoralizing to see the best of any character getting torn to shreds by the best of a Meta Knight. For this to be a common theme entices individuals to stop competing.

If no one is around with Meta knight Tornado Spams, is it still Tornado Spam? =p

But sure, let's remove the human element completely.

Meta Knight controlled by an flawless machine, isn't going to lose.

Ran Iji said:

Meta Knight controlled by an flawless machine, isn't going to lose.

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What about yoshi controlled by a flawless machine? I hear hes got wavedashing.

wavedashing is for mindgames

mindgames are for players who can take advantage of opponent flaws.

players are not flawless machines.

I won't Speak for Yoshi since I don't main him. I do know that the Best Yoshi in the nation was at the last Dallas tournament. I'll have to ask Sudai how he faired against Meta knights.

I'm pretty much for the ban of MK, but in two months or so, to see if that evolves (and that won't).

I guess i can copy my other response to all players saying that after MK getting banned, Snake will...

MK has no bad match-up,
MK has only one weakness : His light,
MK his really fast,
MK has a huge priority on every attack,
MK has the best recovery in the game,
MK doesn't take so much skill to be played good,
MK is the most powerful character in the game, and everybody pick him in tournaments (Sethlon recently, who used to main Falco),


Snake has bad match-up (Falco by example, Even Ganondorf can win against Snake, i swear.),
Snake has weaknesses : He can get comboed easily, is predictable (...),
Snake is slower than MK,
Snake doesn't have a really good recovery, even if it's better than average,
Snake takes skill to be played at a high level,
Snake is the second most powerful character in the game (for the moment), but at a lower statement.

So here we are. I think that IF MK gets banned, Snake won't get banned. Personnally, i vote for MK to be banned (at least for a while), but i won't never vote for Snake/DDD/Falco/G&W to be banned.

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Having a chain grab isn't enough to go even with MK, I'm sorry. I still think MK has the advantage.

I would say the Ice Climbers have a better match up against MK than Yoshi, and they're at a disadvantage against them as well.

Ran Iji said:

However, if it's just a question of people giving up, isn't that the same? If playing Meta Knight is completely demoralizing and reduces an individuals drive to play the game on top of all the other clear advantages that he has, isn't that -wrong?- Isn't that counter productive to a competitive atmosphere? If the answer to beating a character is to be the character or to win via a small list of circumstances, then why even bother?

People won't ban Meta Knight unless it's national. Why? They don't want to see their best Meta Knights lose their edge when they go to large tournaments, and they don't want to lose out on whatever sparse knowledge of how to defeat him is developed.

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The problem is, that could theoretically happen with any character whatsoever.

In that case it becomes a question, not of actual specifics, but bad tendancy.

If the bad tendancy is truly grounded in fact, then it be backed up by actual data that proves brokenness beyond the shadow of a doubt (or it will degrade into clear and present danger (cookie for anyone who gets the reference), or something equivilent).

If it's NOT grounded, then counters will be discovered, because as the number of MKs increase, the more time people will spend playing against them will increase, and there will be more of an opportunity to find a solution. Given that amount of play against MK, somebody will find a solution if one exists.

grandmaster192 said:

Having a chain grab isn't enough to go even with MK, I'm sorry. I still think MK has the advantage.

I would say the Ice Climbers have a better match up against MK than Yoshi, and they're at a disadvantage against them as well.

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It's not just the chain grab, it's also his godly pivot grab that actually allows him to regularly get in said chain grab. It's also a death grab like IC's chaingrab.

Why would you completely discount emotion when discussing a potentially devastating factor in a competitive environment where the ultimate goal is to achieve enjoyment and have fun? Apart from some monetary rewards for tournament winners, there is no other benefit to playing smash, competitive to the bones as though it may be, other than to have fun, right? I'd say human emotions play a fundamental part in this argument. You have to find a balance where the game is as competitive as it can be while still being fundamentally enjoyable for the participants. If this ceases to be the case, then something must be changed, in my opinion.

MK has no bad match-up,
MK has only one weakness : His light,
MK his really fast,
MK has a huge priority on every attack,
MK has the best recovery in the game,
MK doesn't take so much skill to be played good,
MK is the most powerful character in the game, and everybody pick him in tournaments (Sethlon recently, who used to main Falco),

Click to expand...

These are all absolutes that have been declared too early. If we're really going to take this debate objectively, we can't have absolutes like this be accepted as fact. Some of these are fact... Priority, good recovery, easy learning curve... but still, putting them all together like that and saying OPINIONS like "MK is the most powerful character in the game" and ""MK has no bad match-up" which we don't know are true yet... that falsifies the objectivity of your argument. I won't accept that =\

To Ran Iji and Wrexsoul:
Perhaps you're right that I shouldn't discount emotions. My argument, in fact, is an emotional one. One of optimism that there is actually hope to defeat Metaknight.


Heck, I believe this because I don't even lose to him with Ice Climbers. I'm always told "play better Metaknights"... but is that really what should be said to me? I think MK mains should play better Ice Climbers players.

Wrexsoul said:

Why would you completely discount emotion when discussing a potentially devastating factor in a competitive environment where the ultimate goal is to achieve enjoyment and have fun? Apart from some monetary rewards for tournament winners, there is no other benefit to playing smash, competitive to the bones as though it may be, other than to have fun, right? I'd say human emotions play a fundamental part in this argument. You have to find a balance where the game is as competitive as it can be while still being fundamentally enjoyable for the participants. If this ceases to be the case, then something must be changed, in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Because this is a competative gaming community. We play to win.

Plenty of people get enjoyment from playing to win, but that's not the factor we are PRIMARILY concerned about.


Regardless, if it's just an emotional thing, the greater number of mks mean more of a chance for counters to be discovered.

I personally think MK should not be banned. I just think that you should be disqualified from a tourney if you use a tactic like the infinate cape glich.

adumbrodeus said:

Regardless, if it's just an emotional thing, the greater number of mks mean more of a chance for counters to be discovered.

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Too good. We need to watch the metagame evolve a lot more than what we have seen right now before we ban him.

Cuz that's exactly what I'm seeing... a huge effort from people that actually TRY to beat Metaknight. They haven't broken through yet, but for now I'm going to bet my hope on the possibility that they will.

Ugh, this reminds me of Garchomp still being banned in ubers even after the Platinum move tutor update .

choknater said:

These are all absolutes that have been declared too early. If we're really going to take this debate objectively, we can't have absolutes like this be accepted as fact. Some of these are fact... Priority, good recovery, easy learning curve... but still, putting them all together like that and saying OPINIONS like "MK is the most powerful character in the game" and ""MK has no bad match-up" which we don't know are true yet... that falsifies the objectivity of your argument. I won't accept that =\

Click to expand...

I should maybe add "now" ? MK is at the top of every tier list (=Best character in the game), and MK is no bad match-ups is also true for the moment. I personnaly think that he's even with Falco by example, but that's not a BAD match-up for MK.

That's why i said we should wait two months or so (but that would be more... Maybe until March 2009, 1 year after the Bral release)... To see if these facts, true for the moment (), will change or not.

choknater said:

There's a fine line between Metaknight truly being broken... and people just giving up. I don't think we crossed that line yet.

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I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

I have little doubt that once the metagame matures, the talk of MK bans will be even worse than it is now. Why? Because the anti-banned people speaks of the metagame not being matured, meaning no character is at their top level of their game (which is true, the Mario boards just recently discovered an awesome AT). But I don't believe that matters, because if the previous statement is true, that also goes for Metaknight.

This isn't Melee. There's not a ton of techs that can be used to allow others to push the match in their favor. Metaknight is obviously, clearly, downright broken. If you disagree with that then you should set yourself on fire. Nothing in Brawl will counter the fact that Metaknight is virtually lagless on all attacks, has unrealistic hitboxes, an awesome recovery, and is the master of gimping. Who gives a **** if he's light? You gotta hit him first!

In short, I do agree that it's too early to ban Metaknight since there's always that chance of me being wrong, and something awesome comes in for the rest of the characters to be able to settle the score with Metaknight. However, I severely doubt this, and I do expect to see Metaknight be banned in about a year or two.