Match-up discussion #16: Kirby

Time for Kirby...

Many players think Wolf has the advantage which simply isn't true. It's true that Wolf wins in speed and range and is also better at finishing (lol at Kirbys weight...) but that's only one side...

Kirby has some stupid stuff like the Gonzo combo, which is basically 50% dmg, which sucks. Also his Edgeguarding is sick and for a change not spikable with your forward B...

Wolf can outspace Kirby and finish him early but Kirby has always an option too, in every situation. So Wolf has more advantages but Kirbys advantages are more influental on the match-up, making this one - summa sumarum a neutral match-up...

Discuss

Gheb_01 said:

Time for Kirby...

Many players think Wolf has the advantage which simply isn't true.

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Kirby forums say (a while ago at least) that it's around 50:50

It's true that Wolf wins in speed and range and is also better at finishing (lol at Kirbys weight...) but that's only one side...

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I'm pretty sure I heard Kirby called a "middleweight" a while back...but I don't really know how heavy he is. He's heavier than Metaknight and lighter than Mario XD
And I wouldn't say he's better at finishing, Kirby's fsmash is O_O

Kirby has some stupid stuff like the Gonzo combo, which is basically 50% dmg, which sucks. Also his Edgeguarding is sick and for a change not spikable with your forward B...

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The Gonzo combo: fthrow->uair->fthrow->uair, followed by possibly an fsmash, ftilt, dash attack, or something.

BUT!

I always thought it was inescapable, but time and time again I've seen good Wolf players stop me from getting the second grab by spamming Reflector as soon as I can. The only way I thought of getting around that was to shield the reflector, and then grab, but I haven't done it enough times to see if I can guarantee to get the second grab after shielding.

Wolf can outspace Kirby and finish him early but Kirby has always an option too, in every situation. So Wolf has more advantages but Kirbys advantages are more influental on the match-up, making this one - summa sumarum a neutral match-up...

Discuss

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First I'd like to rant by saying that campy Wolfs that spam dsmash, fsmash, and blaster are nearly unbeatable online.
</rant>

Ok, offline discussion!

Kirby has his throw combos at low percentages to rack up damage. fthrow->uair and dthrow->utilt.

Utilt juggles Wolf amazingly at low percentages by itself. Watch out for it, I've seen it countered with Reflector.

Wolf has a horrible recovery, and (the up B) is easy to gimp with dair. Kirby can wall of pain you far enough away so that you can't make it back. He can also edgeguard your side B by turning into a stone, watch out for that.

Stealing Wolf's blaster is amazingly useful for Kirby, so try to avoid getting inhaled, or if he gets your power, be prepared to reflect or shield.

Kirby's Final Cutter is very laggy upon landing, so it's easy to punish. If he is far away, reflecting it is pointless, as the projectile wave dissipates long before it reaches him. If he is almost right next to you as he uses it, you can reflect and hit him with the wave, but it's better to powershield it and punish him with a grab or other attack.

Watch out, of course, for Kirbycide. But since Wolf's recovery is so bad, he doesn't have to kamikaze, he can just spit you out under the stage, and possibly kick you around a bit, and you won't make it back up and he will.

That's about all for now, I'll contribute more later if you want.

Why am I helping Wolf, I hate him D:

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV-KuyUbq-8
A wifi video of me (a pretty good Kirby) against a pretty good Wolf. I win. I was doing well at first, but he made a nice comeback. It shows you both what to do, and what not to do. Watch out for the end, you don't want that happening to you ^_^

Wow, thanks for the input and yes I was wrong about the finishing stuff. Kirbys fsmash is more than enough

50/50 imo. im too lazy to list reasons.

Not even. Kirby gimps the living hell out of us.

§witch said:

Not even. Kirby gimps the living hell out of me.

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fixed

10char

:/
Kirby ***** off the stage. And due to the ******** angles of woof's recovery, he gets gimped.

lol

I know. But gimping Wolf and getting Wolf off the edge are two different stories...

**** it. You won in the ganon and here.

Too good. I tip my hat to you.

lol, it doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong. What matters is, that the match-up is done correctly. So if you truly believe it's in Kirbys favour and have good reasons for it, I have no problem with changing it...unless the community disagrees

kk, lemme do this. Kirby CAN get woof off the stage, after that...GG next stock. kirby has a ridiculous finisher in his Fsmash. Gonzo combo'ed to 50%, great aerial control, middle weight.

I think I have to check Kirbys weight again o_0

As shown in my video, if you get fsmashed anywhere past the center of Final Destination, and you're at 90%+, expect to die.

Since Wolf is lame on the ground (no offense) expect Kirby to be in the air, where I daresay he's better than you. Watch out for bair. It will most likely be his most-used move. Here are some approaches he may use:

-bair walls, well-spaced can be hard to punish
-dair, which can combo into ftilt or fsmash
-fair, 3 hits, if the first lands all 3 usually land
-nair has no landing lag, so he may fastfall nair into jabs or grab. If you shield this, it's usually pretty punishable due to its extremely short range.
-he has 5 jumps...MINDGAEMZ
-dtilt can trip into fsmash, keep that in mind.
-Upthrow can kill you at high %....I'm guessing 180+ for Wolf, but less if he throws you onto a high platform (like on Battlefield)
-I don't usually see Kirbys (other than occasionally myself) use it much, but Kirby can grab, pummel, and when you break free, he's in range for an fsmash. If you're familiar with it, this won't work, but I use it to catch people by surprise. They sometimes try to jab or grab at me after being released, but fsmash is mega. And they die. But if you shield it, probably a free counterattack for you.

according to this list http://smashgamers.com/2008/02/20/smash-bros-brawl-character-weight-list/
kirby is 8th lightest. imo, this is in kirby's favor 55:45.

i give the advantage to kirby simply because of everything already stated, combos at low damage, gimping wolf.

however, with kirby being so light, i dont think its that much of a bad matchup

I'm pretty familiar with this matchup. I say 55-45 for kirby.

Kirby has some pretty neat combos on wolf, though reflector can get in the way. As Asidoh said, simply shielding usually is enough to eliminate the reflector mid-combo.

Watch out for utilt. Comes out godly quick, can punish random stuff, and utilt > utilt bair is super easy to land and is great for getting wolf off the stage. As stated, wolf does NOT want to be anywhere off the stage here.

Wolf has a good keep-away game though. Blaster shouldn't be a problem, but well-spaced aerials and smashes are. The kirby will need to be extra careful until he can get a grab/the momentum.

Oh yeah, and unless you keep Wolf's bair/fair fresh, landing a kill might be tough against kirby.

Asdioh said:

Since Wolf is lame on the ground (no offense) expect Kirby to be in the air, where I daresay he's better than you. Watch out for bair. It will most likely be his most-used move.

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Don't underestimate Wolf's aerials. Kirby's bair is amazing but so is Wolf's, and Wolf's fair is also excellent and can be done laglessly. Because of Kirby's lightness he can be vertically KOd very easily and that means he must be very cautious about being in the air against Wolf, whose fair has good vertical knockback. Really I think Wolf is in a lot more trouble on the ground, where he has to fret about being grabbed and fsmashed.

Percon said:

Asidoh

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@#$^

Right back at you, Precon

just joking around, but it's mind-boggling how many people make that exact typo...what the hell? Look at the pattern on your keyboard people.

teekay said:

Don't underestimate Wolf's aerials. Kirby's bair is amazing but so is Wolf's, and Wolf's fair is also excellent and can be done laglessly. Because of Kirby's lightness he can be vertically KOd very easily and that means he must be very cautious about being in the air against Wolf, whose fair has good vertical knockback. Really I think Wolf is in a lot more trouble on the ground, where he has to fret about being grabbed and fsmashed.

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Indeed, I got killed by a fair in the video in my first post, I was like "wut"

His aerials are pretty good, but I think Kirby has an easier time positioning his aerials because of all his jumps, and because he's floatier.

I've never really had trouble fighting kirby, after fighting Chu'Dats kirby irl and basing my tactic around his, most other kirby's seem easy to read.

Mitsurugi, PLEASE, change your font color X_X What's so bad about the default? >_>


Wolf vs Kirby.... I give this 50:50 honestly.
On the subject of killing: "Kirby_BF
Edge: ~80%
Middle: ~110%" Meaning, on the edge of battle field, Wolf can kill Kirby at 80% with maximum DI (Up in this case) and 110% in the middle of Battle field with a fresh Dsmash. That's about on par with ZSS, Fox and Pika, GaW and Metaknight.

So Wolf can kill Kirby fairly on... but Kirby can kill just as well. His killing options are AMAZING. SH Hammer is so satisfying to pull off, and his Fsmash is just absolute ****.

HOWEVER, Wolf's Dsmash starts faster than Kirby's Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash and SH hammer. So they can kill at about equal percents, however it's easier to get a kill off with Wolf due to his faster Dsmash.

Uhm... aerials....Both characters' aerials are amazing, However, horizontally, Wolf can simply outspace Kirby, and with Kirby, people that can zone him generally give him trouble, you definitely have to be good at spacing. But Wolf can simply zone Kirby in this department (Not to mention Wolf has greater mobility =D, but Kirby's floatier). However vertically... Kirby has Wolf beat, and as mentioned before, Kirby can get above Wolf with his multiple jumps, Kirby's Dair is simply amazing, long lasting, a spike, and can lead into Fsmash/other things.

Which leads into the next area, off stage. Kirby has Wolf beat here... Kirby can recover amazingly (And his up B can spike xD ) And his Dair is once again amazing here, the Dair will go straight through Wolf's Up B, (And so will his hammer) Not too sure about his side B... I believe if spaced right Wolf's side by will go through Kirby's Spike.

I'd say Kirby has the advantage with the chaingrab/off-stage game.... but Wolf can simply outspace and zone Kirby on the stage. 50:50.

Ok, so we mostly agree, that it's neutral...the question is only, wether it's 50:50 or 45:55...

Asdioh said:

@#$^

Right back at you, Precon

just joking around, but it's mind-boggling how many people make that exact typo...what the hell? Look at the pattern on your keyboard people.

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Sorry >_>

Asidoh just rolls off the tongue so much easier.

I'd go with even, for all the options mentioned above. Offstage is where the real problem is for wolf, otherwise it's even or wolf has slight advantages. Don't let kirby get your laser, and use your shine to get out of a lot of his 'combos', such as the gonzo combo. Everything has already been said, thanks kirby mains for your input!

We forgot the gayass kirby-cides.

all I can say, DON'T LET HIM GET THE BLASTER! Otherwise its about 50:50, On the stage wolf is great, off the stage.... GG.

lol Inhale --> Spit out under stage --> B-air stage spike = rapee

When you can combo U-tilt --> U-air at 75%, you know your opponent is used to getting ***** by combos.

That's all I have to say. 55-45 for Kirby

i think its in kirbys favor.

slightly tho

Reviving a two month dead thread, good job.

ur point?


>_>

This ****'s been happening all over the board, new people show up, and bump old match-up threads and say something with absolutely no back up.

Asdioh said:

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV-KuyUbq-8
A wifi video of me (a pretty good Kirby) against a pretty good Wolf. I win. I was doing well at first, but he made a nice comeback. It shows you both what to do, and what not to do. Watch out for the end, you don't want that happening to you ^_^

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That wolf was pretty bad X_X