Possibly a new staple combo for Jiggs mains

EDIT: 10/06/08 7:09AM

Took out incorrect information.

EDIT: 10/27/08 12:16AM

Took out more incorrect information. Slighty updated the original post.

1. Full jump
2. Dair immediately. Hit with the last 2 hits of Dair and fast fall (Of course it has to be more complicated xD. Times vary on when to fast fall, but not drastically.)
3. Grounded Footstool Jump
4. Dair a quarter of a second later and fast fall it.
5. The Dair in Step 4, if used correctly, will auto-cancel. Still looking into follow-ups, I've been using: Grab, Jab, Utilt, Rest (from what I can tell, it will not be a true combo unless they don't DI/SDI and you can overlap them in your landing)

Grounded Short Footstool Follow Ups

This is a listing of what you can hit the opposing character with while they're still in footstooled lag

Dair - Means you can hit with most, if not all, hits of the Dair.
Nair - Means you can hit with a Sweetspot Nair while on top of them.
Rest - Means you can hit with Rest while on top of them.

Mario - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair, Nair

Luigi - Footstool 1: Dair, Nair, Rest
Footstool 2: Dair, Nair, Rest

Note: For the life of me, I can only rest during the first Footstool if I claw grip the controller. The timing is VERY tight on this.

Peach - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Bowser - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Note: You will be better off punishing with something else. You would have to abandon Step 4 inexchange for using an immediate Dair and doing a grand total of 8% or, depending on decay, lower damage.

Donkey Kong - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Diddy - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Yoshi - Footstool 1: Dair, Nair, Rest
Footstool 2: Dair, Nair, Rest

Wario - Footstool 1: Dair, Nair, Uair, Rest
Footstool 2: Dair, Nair, Uair, Rest

Link - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Zelda - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Sheik - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair, Nair

Ganondorf - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Samus - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair, Nair

Toon Link - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair, Nair

Note: The juice isn't worth the squeeze on TL. Better off punishing with something else.

ZSS - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Pit - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Ice Climbers - Footstool 1: Dair, Nair, Rest
Footstool 2: Dair, Nair, Rest

Note: Unless you can seperate them prior to the Dair -> GFSJ, you will always Footstool Nana. At higher percents, Hitstun 2s may keep Popo in hitstun long enough to footstool Nana and follow up, I'll test this and include my results in Vol. 2.

R.O.B - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Kirby - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Note: Requires a Fast Fall pretty early to combo into a footstool.

Meta Knight - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

King DeDeDe - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Olimar.... Is too short. Sorry.

Fox - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Falco - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Wolf - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

C.Falcon - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Jiggly has respect for her fellow pokemon. It will not work on Pikachu, Squirtle or Ivysaur.

Charizard - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair, Nair (If you're facing his back >_>)

Lucario - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Jigglypuff - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Marth - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair, Nair

Ike - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Ness and Lucas - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Note: Punish with something else.

G&W - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair

Snake - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair, Nair

Sonic - Footstool 1: Dair
Footstool 2: Dair, Nair

Sounds interesting. I'll try it when I get home. Is it actually very useful?

Sadly Jiggs can only Foot Stool twice before landing on the ground. If you try to footstool a third time she just won't.

I was trying to figure out a GFSC for Jiggs before I made the vid but couldn't find a good one. GJ finding this BTW (If it works lol)

I do know that after a second Foot Stool with her you can d-Air to rest.(The timing is different depending on the height of the character you do it to)

Lol. You know what I was thinking about yesterday? Before I even saw this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWiQTh63_XU

And I was like holy **** do you think a footstool to sing combo is possible? I mean. If you get them when their just off the ground, it IS possible. I guess. They cant move for a while after they land and you can hit them with the end of your sing.

Someone test this, I dont even have a wii.

God-is-my-Rock said:

Sadly Jiggs can only Foot Stool twice before landing on the ground. If you try to footstool a third time she just won't.

I was trying to figure out a GFSC for Jiggs before I made the vid but couldn't find a good one. GJ finding this BTW (If it works lol)

I do know that after a second Foot Stool with her you can d-Air to rest.(The timing is different depending on the height of the character you do it to)

Click to expand...

Ohhhh no, thank you. You set me on the track to figuring this out xD. And it's alot deeper than I first thought. It actually ***** a few characters of the cast. And yeah, I thought she had a 3rd FSJ for some reason, but it turns out she doesn't really need it. At higher percents, you can auto-cancel a dair after the 2nd FSJ (on some characters) and land while they're still in hitstun and repeat the process O_O. Also, certain characters (Wario, Yoshi, Luigi are the first ones to come to mind), you can follow up the initial FSJ with a nair or rest. Which is great.

But in the case of DK. It used to be a hard match-up (for me anyways), but Dair -> SHFSJ -> Dair -> SHFSJ -> Dair is too good to describe in words. I'll let the video do the talking tomorrow.

There's also a dair -> FSJ -> dair (2 hits) -> double jump -> dair -> FSJ -> Dair lock on ZSS at higher percents. The only real trouble I've encountered so far is, err.... "humanoid" characters. Not ones like Mario or Luigi that are comically based on people, but Link/Zelda/Ganon/C.Falcon/Snake, there's not much to follow up with after the FSJ. Landing a hit or two with a dair is the best it gets. A second FSJ opens up more options (I'm taking a list down and plan on going indepth), but there isn't a setup for the second FSJ, so unless the Jiggs is playing a moron... you get the point.

But this is big and just what we needed over on the Jiggs board. Thank you for pointing out the "hitstun" in the GFSJ, I would've never tried taking it a step further and figuring out dair -> FSJ combo.

EDIT

Nope, it's not very good at all Glick, I already tried xD. The only one I've had it work at all on was Yoshi. And who the hell plays Yoshi lol.

lol. True. But at least yoshis better then jigglypuff.

I'd like to see a video about what your describing

*Dont derail this thread with jigglypuff vs yoshi arguments

Don't worry, I'll get it up tomorrow sometime in the evening. I want to take down some more data on what you can and can't do on each individual match-up. Then I'll make a guide out of everything. I'll get to making replays, and then uploading them to the computer later in the day tomorrow and should have a video up sometime after that (Only reason the Wario Grab release took me so long was because that was my first video in Sony Vegas).

It's as good as it sounds, but it turns out there's a lot of match-up specific follow-ups. Like the list I gave out, the only thing that stays true in every match-up is steps 1&2. 3 Applies to Wario and ZSS (the lock). But some characters just get *****, and there's other ways to follow up the FSJ aside from dair on some characters.

There's also a few that have been a pain in the *** (Luigi, you can follow up a FSJ with Rest in one frame >_>, same with nair). Toon link is the the only "hard" one to follow up a dair into a FSJ.

And yeah xD. I didn't mean to, it's just that no one plays Yoshi (or Jiggs for that matter). It'd be hypocritical of me to turn it into a Yoshi vs. Jiggs debate, when our community is argueably the Melee Yoshi community of brawl.

True that. Crazy Cloud I respect all your trying to do for these boards. Good luck with all your testing.

Found a work around on "humans". The timing is really strict, but now everyone but Olimar is suseptible to this (Cause he's too small xD). I'm going to sleep, I'll get to work on uploading my replays and data and turn this into a Guide by the end of "today". There's also a lot of room for diversity since this is brand new, so don't just go off what I show and tell you works. Experiment and make it your own too.

See you guys later on in the day.

Can't wait to see the video.

D*** looks complicated , the video has to clear it up for me

Doesnt sound that important but Ill stay here to see this.

tyser is bad at brawl, i beat him like ten times with cfalcon

You can FS to rest Wario LOL


Jiggs can FS Wario ,to U-Air, To aerial F-Stool, to N-air to Jab Lock

I should be getting my wii back on Tuesday or Wednesday.

I want to see this **** in action.

When/If you make a video for this, show it in an actual match please :-D. If it's a staple it should be easy.

Tyser said:

When/If you make a video for this, show it in an actual match please :-D. If it's a staple it should be easy.

Click to expand...

A) I don't have anyone to play. However, I've tested shielding with my wrist on the B trigger on the Wiimote. So needless to say, this is good to go.
B) There's no way in hell this can be used to it's full potential on WiFi. Input lag would screw up the timing after the footstool outside of using it against a DK.
C) I'm focused on getting a tutorial video up rather than wait and get matches of it in use (I'll get those too, but again, Refer to section A).


Alright, I'm getting to work on the video now. Thanks for the support Tyser, in the most unsarcastic way possible. I'm going to try even harder to incorporate this faster and the best way possible.

P.S.

When I get done with the video, I'll be updating my original post to include data on every match-up with what's possible to do after the intial footstool (to my current knowledge).

God-is-my-Rock said:

You can FS to rest Wario LOL


Jiggs can FS Wario ,to U-Air, To aerial F-Stool, to N-air to Jab Lock

Click to expand...

i jsut did that today and it took me forever to do i suck at footstools

heres a vid bad quality though and i messed up the jab part

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5cPg8254FE

rinoH said:

i jsut did that today and it took me forever to do i suck at footstools

heres a vid bad quality though and i messed up the jab part

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5cPg8254FE

Click to expand...

I love how the only part that matters is the last 3 seconds. lol. But nice work I think actually usable. I wish there was some better quality footage with some more techs.

it works at only 25-50% i think

That's probably right rinoh. I decided to mess with it myself and it worked at around the 30% range for me. Just remember that I didn't do extensive testing. I only went in and messed with this for like 5 minutes lol.

Plus how are you able to FS to rest on Wario? I tried in training mode and held down shield after Wario got footstooled and Wario brought his shield up before I was able to get back down.

After four hours, I'm only done with a minute into the video xD. I want this to be a good tutorial, and I want anyone who views to understand why the combo works (Which is the first minute, part 1).

I'm not going to meet the midnight deadline by any means, but I will have this finished before I go to sleep. I have three cans of monster to keep me going through-out the night xD. Video editting is kinda fun , and I really want the quality to be the best I can do, so I will not be half-assing by any means.

Crazy Cloud for jiggz prez.

After 14 hours of playing, recording, uploading and video editing. I'm finally uploading this ***** to youtube.

This is Vol. 1. I will make a Vol. 2 on friday with a more indepth look (and match replay clips showcasing how I've faired this week using it) about each individual Match-up.

I'll update my original post after I finish uploading it to youtube and put the link there.

P.S.

I accidentally noticed I moved the text segments through really fast x_X. Vegas is not friendly with moving clips 20+ clips around, so by the time I noticed it. It was too late to touch up. So you guys maybe need to pause a handful of times through out the video.

I don't even main Jigglypuff and I can't wait for this!

Phampy said:

Plus how are you able to FS to rest on Wario? I tried in training mode and held down shield after Wario got footstooled and Wario brought his shield up before I was able to get back down.

Click to expand...

you have to rest RIGHT after the Foot Stool

Crazy Cloud said:

After 14 hours of playing, recording, uploading and video editing. I'm finally uploading this ***** to youtube.

This is Vol. 1. I will make a Vol. 2 on friday with a more indepth look (and match replay clips showcasing how I've faired this week using it) about each individual Match-up.

I'll update my original post after I finish uploading it to youtube and put the link there.

P.S.

I accidentally noticed I moved the text segments through really fast x_X. Vegas is not friendly with moving clips 20+ clips around, so by the time I noticed it. It was too late to touch up. So you guys maybe need to pause a handful of times through out the video.

Click to expand...

Nice video Man! When I get home from school tonight I'll get to work with this. GREAT JOB figuring out all of the hit stuns.

peace out

If the opponent DIs, this is near impossible. Cool vid though I guess.

Crazy Cloud is like, my hero now. Seriously, you have done us all a great service with this.

I love you.

I cant wait for part two.

nice job crazy cloud

Are you guys even considering if the opponent DIs (which they will)? I hope the next vid shows this against DI. I dont wanna give this dude too much credit if this isnt reliable in competitive play (not crusty WiFi).

dair to footstool is near impossible against a good player
u can't footstool if ur opponent sheilds or rolls which is most likely to happen

GeneralWoodman said:

dair to footstool is near impossible against a good player
u can't footstool if ur opponent sheilds or rolls which is most likely to happen

Click to expand...

Did you even watch the video? lol....


But yeah like Tyser said, is it possible to smash DI out of the dair? I doubt it, cause the footstool hitbox is pretty big, but you never know. You might be able to shield or something if you get out.
I dunno, I don't play Jiggs very much, but this caught my eye cause it's awesome Very nice video

Tyser said:

Are you guys even considering if the opponent DIs (which they will)? I hope the next vid shows this against DI. I dont wanna give this dude too much credit if this isnt reliable in competitive play (not crusty WiFi).

Click to expand...

Thats true. My biggest concern has always been that people will start DIing out of drill rests. Its not hard to do and a lot of people don't know its possible.

GeneralWoodman said:

dair to footstool is near impossible against a good player
u can't footstool if ur opponent sheilds or rolls which is most likely to happen

Click to expand...

Its a real combo. Meaning you cant avoid the footstool unless you DI(?)

No it's easy to avoid the footstool. The Drill rest after the footstool is the harder part, although you can shield the rest, but for the footstool all you have to do is Utilt, Spotdodge, Roll, Shield grab.

People can DI when being Dair'd thats why I cant see this working unless the Jiggz player is seriously M2Nerd tier.

Tyser said:

People can DI when being Dair'd thats why I cant see this working unless the Jiggz player is seriously M2Nerd tier.

Click to expand...

Exactly.

10-------

By the way C.C. I dont mean to be a bitch about this whole thing, it's just how I type and stuff. I cant help but sound a little rude most of the time.

Tyser said:

Are you guys even considering if the opponent DIs (which they will)? I hope the next vid shows this against DI. I dont wanna give this dude too much credit if this isnt reliable in competitive play (not crusty WiFi).

Click to expand...

By all means doubt it. Doubting it will get us to a final verdict of what does and does not work with it. This was just a demonstration on what it is, and a very general "how to". I wanted to get a video up so I have more than just myself messing with this, and discovering more for it. But while you do have your doubts, I'll trust you'll be testing this as much as the rest of us.

Also

I'm not after credit, that's not what this was about . And yes, DI and SDI in the next video, as I'm curious myself to see the result. However, I'm confident in the initial Dair -> Footstool. Who's keeping us from only hitting once with the Dair? They're not going to be able to SDI far enough away to end their hitstun before the GFSJ.

GeneralWoodman said:

dair to footstool is near impossible against a good player
u can't footstool if ur opponent sheilds or rolls which is most likely to happen

Click to expand...

Refer to Part 1 of the video. I included that segment for this particular type of response. But I'll be more than happy to answer and explain it for you here.

Full Jump and Immediate Dair in most match-ups will A) Put you in near perfect footstooling range and B) Allows you begin to fast fall while the Dair's hitboxes are still out. In the case of DK, you have to fast fall the very end of the dair for a true combo at 0%, but at later percents you will not. However, in the case of Snake, you'll finish a perfect Full Jump + Immediate Dair and Footstool him during his hitstun as soon as Dair is finished (I will get info on if this is a true combo at 0% with a single hit Dair).

But saying this Dair to GFSJ will not work, in a manner of words, is like saying "I can't hit someone at all because they're going to shield or roll". As an approach I have doubts, mostly because I haven't gotten a chance to test this as an approach yet.

But what's keeping you from using this to punish an opening?

Glick said:

Thats true. My biggest concern has always been that people will start DIing out of drill rests. Its not hard to do and a lot of people don't know its possible.




Its a real combo. Meaning you cant avoid the footstool unless you DI(?)

Click to expand...

They're not gonna get very far with SDI if you only hit once at the end of Dair. If that's what it comes down to, we'll still be able to setup for the footstool on the majority of match-ups. At the moment, I know only of Jigglypuff and Kirby who require you to hit with more than the last hit of Dair.

Why?

Their hitstun animations increase their hurtbox (I believe this is true for more than just the "puffball" characters, but I'm only positive on Kirby/Jiggs/MK). So while you wouldn't be able to hit with the last hit of Dair normally, the increased hurtbox from their hitstun animations allows for the rest of the Dair to connect. How many hits prior to the last hit are required for the last to connect is something I'll have to get data on.



Updating my original post now. I wanted to when I uploaded the guide on youtube, but I was too tired.

EDIT:

Tyser xD. I don't take any offense at all. I like that you have doubts about it. Because as long as you have some doubt in you, (hopefully) it's going to push you to find any exploits in getting out of it you can. If you can't test your ideas, I'll be more than happy to.

Don't worry about it.